Is China liable? - Printable Version
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RE: Is China liable? - Snorlax94 - 04-07-2020
Additionally, parroting this nationalist finger-pointing is contributing to a rise in race-based extremism that has already led to violence, including a train derailment near a naval ship in California and an attempted car bombing in Missouri.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/07/politics/national-security-warning-coronavirus-extremism/index.html
National security officials warned in an intelligence bulletin issued Tuesday that extremist groups are exploiting the coronavirus pandemic to incite violence and bolster racist and anti-government narratives.
The bulletin -- from the FBI, Department of Homeland Security and National Counterterrorism Center -- cites threats from an array of hate groups aimed at minorities, and captures how conspiracy theories about the virus' origins and the government's response are likely fueling potential violence.
It also predicts that spaces vital to the moment, like hospitals and grocery stores, could be potential targets -- as well as police officers enforcing stay-at-home orders.
...
Law enforcement have already responded to two extremist plots in recent days, including a train engineer in California who allegedly derailed his train near a naval hospital ship that he thought was being used in a government takeover and a Missouri man who was accused of attempting to detonate a car bomb at a hospital treating coronavirus patients.
Reports of attacks against Asian people have also intensified in the US after the outbreak first began in China.
In the bulletin, the agencies write that some extremist groups have blamed China for the spread of the virus, concluding that hate crimes against Asians will likely increase over the next two to three months.
Anti-Semitic conspiracy theories claiming that Jews and Israel are responsible for the manufacturing and spread of the virus have also proliferated in some hate group circles, the bulletin notes, heightening the risk of violence against Jews in the country.
While the FBI has become increasingly focused on combating domestic terrorism in recent years as the number of reported hate crimes has increased, the recent warnings have reflected an elevated concern that the pandemic and the changes to American society that it has caused were creating more perceived reasons and opportunities for extremists to act.
RE: Is China liable? - 82 Card - 04-07-2020
(04-07-2020, 06:07 PM)Snorlax94 Wrote: The point of state-driven finger-pointing is to distract from the incompetence, incorrect decisions, failures, corruption, slow response, and nepotism from a country’s leadership, from Itay’s, from the UK’s, from Iran’s, from the US’s.
China belongs in that list as well: https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/13/asia/china-coronavirus-us-lijian-zhao-intl-hnk/index.html
I'm not joining the blame China camp. I'm just amazed at the propensity for childish behavior around the world. That does not justify counterproductive behavior by our own government.
RE: Is China liable? - BostonCard - 04-07-2020
I would blame the Chinese communist party, not China itself. Among the many victims of Covid-19 was a Chinese doctor who sounded the alarm about the virus and then was muzzled by local police and forced to apologize for "spreading rumors". He is not to blame for Covid's spread; he's a victim and a hero. Likewise, there are over 3,300 other Chinese who died due to Covid-19, and unless some of them deliberately spread the virus, they are victims, not people who are liable.
On the other hand, the Chinese Communist Party rewards loyalty and not raising problems. Thus, local Chinese officials had every incentive in their system to try to minimize what was going on and keep it quiet. So they minimized the pandemic, tried to keep it under wraps. But of course, what they found out (and what Trump has found out) is that the virus doesn't care, and, in fact, it's going to thrive in the absence of knowledge. It's going to keep on infecting people until you recognize there's a problem and put a stop to it. So yeah, the Chinese communist party failed its citizens, and I would love nothing more than for the Chinese people to be able to enjoy contested elections, freedom of speech, and freedom from repression (yeah, a pipe dream, to be sure, but one can always hope).
But here's the thing, the CCP is accountable to the Chinese people, but they are not my government. We do live in a liberal democracy, and so our elected officials are accountable to us. So, while I will never be able to vote for or against an President Xi in China (even if it were a Democracy), I will get a chance to hold this administration accountable, and I will do so in November (thankfully by mail). So, if you think this administration has done a great job in responding to the pandemic, by all means, November will be your chance to endorse its approach, and if you think the administration has handled it incompetently, November will be your chance to vote for someone else.
BC
RE: Is China liable? - oldalum - 04-08-2020
(04-07-2020, 07:35 PM)magnus Wrote: No reason we can't blame more than one entity.There's plenty of blame to go around, large and small. How about the people in the government who let the contract lapse to maintain the ventilators in the national stockpile? How about adding Fox News for irresponsible "journalism"? I've seen so many accounts of interviews with people who say they only get their information from Fox News, and they thought this was just going to be like the flu, so all these recommended precautions were B.S.
China, WHO, CDC, White House top my evolving list.
RE: Is China liable? - Goose - 04-08-2020
(04-08-2020, 06:46 AM)oldalum Wrote: There's plenty of blame to go around, large and small. How about the people in the government who let the contract lapse to maintain the ventilators in the national stockpile?I think you might want to look into this one a bit more. The contract to maintain the national stockpile was let. One of the bidders protested. By law, at that point everything stops and the protest must be evaluated. You cannot legally put out another RFP for the same service/product until that protest is heard and decided. If the protest is deemed to have merit, a new solicitation and RFP must be issued. While this process is technically an administrative one, it amounts to a civil legal proceeding, and that process takes months. That is the government contracting process. The only way that somebody was allowed to start maintaining them was, as I understand it, the emergency declaration at the start of the epidemic.
If you don't think that is a good process, feel free to recommend revisions. Easy to do since these regulations are frequently revised, usually just making the process slower, more costly and more difficult for all involved (the contractors and the government) . Everybody wants government contracting to be absolutely fair and transparent, with no biases. At the same time they want to include preferences for selected groups. They want it to be efficient, rapid, selecting only competent vendors. They want it to select the lowest possible cost. Obviously, many of these goals are at odds with each other. No problem, they must all be met simulaneously.
RE: Is China liable? - dabigv13 - 04-08-2020
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/intelligence-report-warned-coronavirus-crisis-early-november-sources/story?id=70031273&id=70031273&__twitter_impression=true
So in November (!!!) our intelligence agencies were looking into a potentially dangerous new contagion in China. But if only they would have told us directly how serious it was, maybe we would have listened and acted sooner......right. Our president was publicly celebrating the Chinese response for months after receiving this intelligence!!!
This is such a disaster of leadership and so many needless deaths will result from it, way more than 9/11.
RE: Is China liable? - burger - 04-08-2020
(04-08-2020, 08:59 AM)dabigv13 Wrote: https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/intelligence-report-warned-coronavirus-crisis-early-november-sources/story?id=70031273&id=70031273&__twitter_impression=true
So in November (!!!) our intelligence agencies were looking into a potentially dangerous new contagion in China. But if only they would have told us directly how serious it was, maybe we would have listened and acted sooner......right. Our president was publicly celebrating the Chinese response for months after receiving this intelligence!!!
This is such a disaster of leadership and so many needless deaths will result from it, way more than 9/11.
Heh, I was about to say the same thing. NOVEMBER. The White House knew in f***ing November. And Trump did nothing until March.
Yeah, it's China's fault. Oy.
RE: Is China liable? - magnus - 04-08-2020
Was this even a thing in China in November? The first official case was early December and i thought i read that hindsight tracing made it possible/likely that there was a round preceding that, but for the US to know in November one would think there'd be more solid evidence of cases in November already out in public knowledge. Or maybe that's the next shoe to drop?
RE: Is China liable? - 82 Card - 04-08-2020
(04-08-2020, 08:50 AM)Goose Wrote: The contract to maintain the national stockpile was let. One of the bidders protested. By law, at that point everything stops and the protest must be evaluated. You cannot legally put out another RFP for the same service/product until that protest is heard and decided.
There are ways to obtain interim contract, often by extension of the old contract or by overriding automatic stay if new contract is already awarded when protest is filed. If someone protests a janitorial contract, the garbage does not pile up in the federal buildings. If someone protests a network services contract, the phones do not stop ringing. There's no reason stockpile maintenance should fall apart because of a protest.
(04-07-2020, 02:27 PM)Mick Wrote: I have two questions:
1) Is the Chinese government responsible for the rapid rise and spread of this pandemic, thereby causing the results listed above?
2) If so, will they be held to account? How?
Where there's a question, there's a lawsuit: https://www.bclplaw.com/en-GB/thought-leadership/chinese-government-sued-in-multiple-class-actions-by-us-citizens-and-businesses.html
Not saying the lawsuits are any good. Just posting for information. I have no relationship to the law firm that posted the material.
RE: Is China liable? - chrisk - 04-08-2020
(04-08-2020, 09:27 AM)magnus Wrote: Was this even a thing in China in November? The first official case was early December and i thought i read that hindsight tracing made it possible/likely that there was a round preceding that, but for the US to know in November one would think there'd be more solid evidence of cases in November already out in public knowledge. Or maybe that's the next shoe to drop?
Did the US share its intelligence with China? Its national or local government? Signs of a large outbreak of a virus could be evident before the exact nature of it is known.
It made it to Trump’s daily briefing in early January, so as a minimum, he wasted 2 months.
RE: Is China liable? - terry - 04-08-2020
(04-08-2020, 10:29 AM)82 Card Wrote: Where there's a question, there's a lawsuit: https://www.bclplaw.com/en-GB/thought-leadership/chinese-government-sued-in-multiple-class-actions-by-us-citizens-and-businesses.html
Not saying the lawsuits are any good. Just posting for information. I have no relationship to the law firm that posted the material.
The linked article discusses China's sovereign immunity defense and why it will be difficult for U.S. plaintiffs to overcome that defense.
RE: Is China liable? - teejers1 - 04-08-2020
(04-07-2020, 02:27 PM)Mick Wrote: First, let me state that I don't care what the virus is called, although SARS-Cov-2 is fine by me. I hate that people of Asian descent face discrimination and worse thanks to this virus and the reactions of bigots. I lament the lack of preparation and slow reactions at the Federal, state and local level. I am encouraged by heroic doctors, PAs, nurses, EMTs and other medical professionals who are working overtime in every country and at great personal risk to themselves. I mourn the thousands of American dead, the hundreds of thousands infected here and the tens of millions of lives who have been upended because they lost their jobs and have inadequate resources to live while dealing with this virus.
Dangerous infections can happen anywhere at any time. The swine flu or A/H1N1 virus started in Mexico, the first known case of the Spanish flu was at a military base in Kansas. This particular infection started and spread in China. In the main, no one gets infected or infects other people on purpose, and the medical establishment of each country generally informs each other as quickly as possible about the status of viruses and expects (and usually receives) reciprocity.
That did not happen with China. The Chinese government obfuscated the origins, deflected or exaggerated early negative signs, and hid the results of this pandemic to the extent that it negatively impacted other countries in a very significant way. I don't think there's any question that the Chinese government wasn't forthcoming; even today, it is clearly obvious that they aren't releasing accurate data.
I have two questions:
1) Is the Chinese government responsible for the rapid rise and spread of this pandemic, thereby causing the results listed above?
2) If so, will they be held to account? How?
Even if I thought China was a bad actor here (and I do), so what? No one is going to do anything to China on the world stage or otherwise. Just look at how the NBA - which actually had some leverage (unlike any country on the world stage now toward COVID-19) - cowered when a Rockets executive made a tweet supporting the protesters. Too big, too powerful, too unified in action is China.
Who is going to declare liability?
Who is going to calculate damages?
And who is going to "collect?"
And even if you could answer the above questions, who has the bandwidth? Each country has its own concerns regarding virus containment (and its own shortcomings in responding to the virus).
RE: Is China liable? - BostonCard - 04-08-2020
(04-08-2020, 10:54 AM)teejers1 Wrote: Even if I thought China was a bad actor here (and I do), so what? No one is going to do anything to China on the world stage or otherwise. Just look at how the NBA - which actually had some leverage (unlike any country on the world stage now toward COVID-19) - cowered when a Rockets executive made a tweet supporting the protesters. Too big, too powerful, too unified in action is China.
Who is going to declare liability?
Who is going to calculate damages?
And who is going to "collect?"
And even if you could answer the above questions, who has the bandwidth? Each country has its own concerns regarding virus containment (and its own shortcomings in responding to the virus).
Agree down the line with teejers. Chinese communist party actions fall in the realm of things we can't control.
BC
RE: Is China liable? - Goose - 04-08-2020
(04-08-2020, 10:29 AM)82 Card Wrote:(04-08-2020, 08:50 AM)Goose Wrote: The contract to maintain the national stockpile was let. One of the bidders protested. By law, at that point everything stops and the protest must be evaluated. You cannot legally put out another RFP for the same service/product until that protest is heard and decided.
There are ways to obtain interim contract, often by extension of the old contract or by overriding automatic stay if new contract is already awarded when protest is filed. If someone protests a janitorial contract, the garbage does not pile up in the federal buildings. If someone protests a network services contract, the phones do not stop ringing. There's no reason stockpile maintenance should fall apart because of a protest.
Beg to differ. Some of the "work arounds" like extending the old contract are very much explicitly prohibited, at least in the cases I am familiar with. A lot may depend on the exact circumstances and category of activity. I have attended meetings in DC where the trash in the offices was not being emptied because of a janitorial contract being protested (twice by the same company!). The people we were talking to just got in the habit of carrying their own trash to the dumpsters once a week. The place was pretty unkept, although in fairness it seemed unkept when the janitorial contract was active. In the "old days" they would just pull the RFP and then try to sneak a contract out there before the company protesting noticed (often by using really misleading titles), or go sole source if they could. Those days are long over, for better or worse.
My point is that the contracts shop dealing with the protest of the ventilator contract probably didn't have a lot of latitude, especially if the company filing the protest was aggressively watching what happened. It also probably didn't look like a high priority at the time to be rushed, because after all, how often do we use those ventilators anyway?
RE: Is China liable? - BrevinsBest - 04-08-2020
Who cares who is liable? This is a pandemic unlike any we've ever seen and every country should be coming together to fight it. Placing blame on one country is an absolute waste of time.
RE: Is China liable? - 82 Card - 04-08-2020
(04-08-2020, 12:26 PM)Goose Wrote:(04-08-2020, 10:29 AM)82 Card Wrote:(04-08-2020, 08:50 AM)Goose Wrote: The contract to maintain the national stockpile was let. One of the bidders protested. By law, at that point everything stops and the protest must be evaluated. You cannot legally put out another RFP for the same service/product until that protest is heard and decided.
There are ways to obtain interim contract, often by extension of the old contract or by overriding automatic stay if new contract is already awarded when protest is filed. If someone protests a janitorial contract, the garbage does not pile up in the federal buildings. If someone protests a network services contract, the phones do not stop ringing. There's no reason stockpile maintenance should fall apart because of a protest.
Beg to differ. Some of the "work arounds" like extending the old contract are very much explicitly prohibited, at least in the cases I am familiar with. A lot may depend on the exact circumstances and category of activity. I have attended meetings in DC where the trash in the offices was not being emptied because of a janitorial contract being protested (twice by the same company!). The people we were talking to just got in the habit of carrying their own trash to the dumpsters once a week. The place was pretty unkept, although in fairness it seemed unkept when the janitorial contract was active. In the "old days" they would just pull the RFP and then try to sneak a contract out there before the company protesting noticed (often by using really misleading titles), or go sole source if they could. Those days are long over, for better or worse.
My point is that the contracts shop dealing with the protest of the ventilator contract probably didn't have a lot of latitude, especially if the company filing the protest was aggressively watching what happened. It also probably didn't look like a high priority at the time to be rushed, because after all, how often do we use those ventilators anyway?
I don't know what was going on in the situation you describe. I've never seen or heard of that on the west coast. I'm in a position where I would have heard of it. I think the real problem with the respirators was that the responsible people didn't think it important, not that they couldn't have gotten the job done because of regulations.
RE: Is China liable? - oldalum - 04-08-2020
(04-08-2020, 08:50 AM)Goose Wrote:Thanks, I should stop watching the TV news(04-08-2020, 06:46 AM)oldalum Wrote: There's plenty of blame to go around, large and small. How about the people in the government who let the contract lapse to maintain the ventilators in the national stockpile?I think you might want to look into this one a bit more. The contract to maintain the national stockpile was let. One of the bidders protested. By law, at that point everything stops and the protest must be evaluated. You cannot legally put out another RFP for the same service/product until that protest is heard and decided. If the protest is deemed to have merit, a new solicitation and RFP must be issued. While this process is technically an administrative one, it amounts to a civil legal proceeding, and that process takes months. That is the government contracting process. The only way that somebody was allowed to start maintaining them was, as I understand it, the emergency declaration at the start of the epidemic.
RE: Is China liable? - akiddoc - 04-08-2020
(04-08-2020, 09:27 AM)magnus Wrote: Was this even a thing in China in November? The first official case was early December and i thought i read that hindsight tracing made it possible/likely that there was a round preceding that, but for the US to know in November one would think there'd be more solid evidence of cases in November already out in public knowledge. Or maybe that's the next shoe to drop?
Doctors in China were definitely noticing this disease the first week of December. People were starting to die. Prior to that it's a little murky. Supposedly the Chinese have traced the disease back to November 17. If they have traced it further they are not saying. I'm not sure the US intelligence agencies would have known much prior to December, but we have no way to know at this time. Knowing how medicine works there was certainly some initial confusion. But that first week of December is when the local CCP tried to clamp down on things per well publicized reports. If they knew something certain before that I don't know.
Early December is the point where they should have been making the knowledge public. China did not notify the WHO regarding the disease until Dec.31. That's a 3.5 to 4 week delay. With the SARS outbreak of 2002-2003, the first cases were eventually traced back to mid November, but they probably realized that there was an emergent disease in early December. The Chinese did not report it to WHO until March 3. That was certainly worse than what happened this time.
I'm wondering what would have happened here in the USA if the disease started here. Doctors here are not shy about discussing things of this nature, but the FBI has shown up on the doorstep of a variety of physicians over the past few years accusing them of treason or other crimes when they were doing something outside the perceived norms. Whether it is pain doctors being accused of over prescribing opiates or researchers accused of sharing data with foreign scientists, it has happened. What would the Trump administration have done? There is a coordinated movement now to rid the government of anyone perceived to be critical of Trump government officials or of Trump himself. Trump wanted to get rid of Fauci until he realized how popular he had become.
RE: Is China liable? - fullmetal - 04-08-2020
Back to the previous question, I think most administrations over the last decade or two have always assumed China (or other foreign nations) would underreport or poorly report meaningful statistics, which is perhaps why the CDC has epidemiologists stationed in foreign countries or why bioterror/pandemics might be a national security issue. It's not hard to imagine that we wouldn't trust any number of nations that might spawn a pandemic while helping them contain it in their country, as it would be in our best interest to do so.
I believe the NYT published that 430k travelers have come from China to the USA *since* Trump's travel restrictions owing to the large number of exceptions/loopholes. Even when he does something right, he can't do it correctly or on time.
As for moral culpability, the Chinese govt certain bears some of that. But if your neighbor's house catches on fire and the neighbor is late to call 911...when the fire spreads to your own house and you decide not to do anything until the house is half-consumed, I'm not sure you can blame your neighbor.
RE: Is China liable? - M T - 04-10-2020
(04-08-2020, 07:34 PM)akiddoc Wrote: Doctors in China were definitely noticing this disease the first week of December. People were starting to die. Prior to that it's a little murky. Supposedly the Chinese have traced the disease back to November 17. If they have traced it further they are not saying. I'm not sure the US intelligence agencies would have known much prior to December, but we have no way to know at this time. Knowing how medicine works there was certainly some initial confusion. But that first week of December is when the local CCP tried to clamp down on things per well publicized reports. If they knew something certain before that I don't know.(I added the underlining to indicate dates that I don't know the evidence for.)
Early December is the point where they should have been making the knowledge public. China did not notify the WHO regarding the disease until Dec.31. That's a 3.5 to 4 week delay. With the SARS outbreak of 2002-2003, the first cases were eventually traced back to mid November, but they probably realized that there was an emergent disease in early December. The Chinese did not report it to WHO until March 3. That was certainly worse than what happened this time.
akiddoc, I know you're doing very important work and don't have time to research everything you write, but, respectfully, I think you've stated as fact events that differ from what I believe to be a fact. I'm going to document what is published by sources I tend to believe. If you can document your earlier dates, please let me know so I can understand where that info is coming from:
Case count is from the WHO-China Joint Mission Feb 24 report, and is not the number of cases known/suspected at the time. It appears that a number of cases were retroactively diagnosed as COVID-19 that weren't recognized as such originally.
Nov 17: This date is 2 weeks before the earliest date given for Patient 1 symptoms. It has been suggested as the date he got the disease, but I would suspect it is symptom onset minus the upper limit of incubation period, as presumptive earliest he would have been infected.
Dec. 1: First patient gets first symptoms. ("First patient" in the Jan 24 Lancet article.) (On Jan 12, WHO indicates 1st patient symptoms began Dec 3)
Dec. 2: There is a patient in the WHO-China graph for this date. This may be an entry for a doctor in Hunan province. While his symptoms agree with COVID-19, he is marked in WHO-China graph as not confirmed. He was immunosuppressed. His diagnosis was Streptococci pneumoiae & fungi. It would be surprising for him to not have started a cluster in Hunan if he had COVID-19. He was hospitalized at least until Jan 10.
Dec. 8: First patient seeks medical treatment.
Dec. 10: Patient 2 seeks treatment. Perhaps this is the wife of patient #1
Dec. 12: Patient 3
Dec. 15: Patients 4 & 5
Dec. 15: This is the date mentioned by Dr. Ian Lipkin that he first heard of the issue.
Dec. 16: Patient 6. Patient 1 is placed in the hospital.
Dec. 17: Patient 7
Dec. 19: Patients 8,9
... Continues at 3-4 a day
Dec. 30: The Wuhan health council tells everyone to report all similar cases immediately. Cases 41-45
Dec. 31: Outbreak announced by Wuhan (WHC); NHC & China CDC investigating. Cases 46-47
WHO China Office informed.
At the time of the Dec. 31 announcement, Wuhan only knew of 27 cases, of which 7 were severe.
Jan 1: The suspect market is closed. Cases 47-56
Jan 3: NHC notifies WHO & other countries & regions; gene sequencing complete. Emergency monitoring, contact management. Cases 64-77
2 days later, WHO indicates that as of Jan 3, there were 44 cases. China begins to inform US of outbreak & response on regular basis.
Jan 4: Telephone conversation by head of China CDC with head of US CDC
Jan 5: Wuhan Health Council indicates that none of the first 59 cases (then known) has yet died.
Jan 6: China CDC Level 2 emergency.
Jan 8: Novel coronavirus official announced as pathogen. Telephone conversation of head of China CDC & head of US CDC
Jan 10: Gene sequence shared; PCR test developed. Telephone conversations between head of China NHC and head of China CDC with Director-General of WHO
Jan 11: Test reagents supplied to Wuhan.
Wuhan Health Council puts out a release that talks about the first 41 confirmed cases. Indicates 1 death has happened. This release makes the clearly wrong statement that there were no new cases since Jan 3. (Could this be that the day-old test was being done on the patients, and only 41 patients had been tested, the latest of which was admitted Jan. 3? Note that 6 days earlier, there were 59 cases.)
Jan 15: China CDC Level 1 emergency
Jan 16: Exit screening applied to Wuhan
Jan 21: Test reagent probes & primers shared with public
I believe the "clamp down on things" that you attribute to early December, is a reference to the January 3 apology required of 8 people who posted on 30 December that there were SARS cases in the hospital. (In the US, perhaps they would have been censured for posting patient information.) By the time that claim was posted, and certainly before the apology was required, the information about the outbreak was being shared to the WHO, the US, and other countries. The claim that Li Wenliang was a whistleblower is suspect. He forwarded a hospital memo & patient info to a set of colleagues and told them only to tell their families.
Sources:
Figure 1 in NEJM: Early Transmission Dynamics in Wuhan, China, of Novel Coronavirus-Infected Pneumonia Feb 21
Figure 2 in Report of the WHO-China Joint Mission on Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) Feb 24
I believe I've seen a more detailed version of these 2 graphs, but I didn't find it for this posting.
The Lancet: Clinical features of patients infected with 2019 novel coronavirus in Wuhan, China[/url] Jan 24
[url=https://www.who.int/csr/don/05-january-2020-pneumonia-of-unkown-cause-china/en/]WHO Emergency Preparedness, Response Jan 5
WHO Emergency Preparedness, Response Jan 12
Wuhan's Dec. 31 announcement
Timeline of China releasing information on COVID-19 and advancing international cooperation
South China Morning Post March 13 claims based on "seen documents" of early cases
Wikipedia Timeline of the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic from November 2019 to January 2020
Jan 4 article about a MD hospitalized on December 2