Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - Printable Version
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RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - BostonCard - 07-06-2020
My compromise proposal is to open up schools and broadcast all the classes via zoom in real time. Families who are concerned about students bringing home COVID-19 to susceptible family members (say a multigeneration household with an elderly grandparent) can participate via zoom; it is sub-optimal but it is better than our current scenario. Teachers who are concerned about catching COVID-19 from their students can call into the zoom meetings and teach from home, perhaps with an in-school teachers aid to ensure the students are on task. Then everyone can assess risk on their own, and most importantly, students who are disadvantaged by poor internet at home or lack of technology to do the zoom call (or no parents at home to involve themselves in their children's learning) have a way to participate in school.
First principles first: you have to prioritize the children, and the kids are at a risk comparable to other risks we have intrinsically accepted.
BC
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - rudruff - 07-06-2020
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882316641/what-parents-can-learn-from-child-care-centers-that-stayed-open-during-lockdowns
Encouraging data that kids are a poor vector for passing this around.
http://earlylearningnation.com/2020/06/opinion-child-cares-look-safe-its-time-to-act-like-it/
Opinion piece, but now I find myself trying to find anything about a cluster coming from a school or day care.
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - dabigv13 - 07-06-2020
It may be possible to open schools if the low transmission amongst children continues to be borne out, but one issue will be in the winter when kids get colds, and then their parents get those colds, will we have the testing capability to run tests on all those patients with a new cough and runny nose? Will society even be able to function with the self quarantining that will require? Or will people power through like they always have before, allowing covid to spread unchecked? I think any school reopening plan would be wise to just leave December through February, at least, with remote teaching.
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - magnus - 07-06-2020
(07-06-2020, 12:12 PM)rudruff Wrote: https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882316641/what-parents-can-learn-from-child-care-centers-that-stayed-open-during-lockdownsTexas apparently has lots of cases... though it's a big state.
Encouraging data that kids are a poor vector for passing this around.
http://earlylearningnation.com/2020/06/opinion-child-cares-look-safe-its-time-to-act-like-it/
Opinion piece, but now I find myself trying to find anything about a cluster coming from a school or day care.
https://www.texastribune.org/2020/07/01/texas-day-care-coronavirus-cases-rising/
Search for day care outbreak and you'll find more. =(
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - lex24 - 07-06-2020
(07-06-2020, 08:40 AM)BostonCard Wrote: My compromise proposal is to open up schools and broadcast all the classes via zoom in real time. Families who are concerned about students bringing home COVID-19 to susceptible family members (say a multigeneration household with an elderly grandparent) can participate via zoom; it is sub-optimal but it is better than our current scenario. Teachers who are concerned about catching COVID-19 from their students can call into the zoom meetings and teach from home, perhaps with an in-school teachers aid to ensure the students are on task. Then everyone can assess risk on their own, and most importantly, students who are disadvantaged by poor internet at home or lack of technology to do the zoom call (or no parents at home to involve themselves in their children's learning) have a way to participate in school.
First principles first: you have to prioritize the children, and the kids are at a risk comparable to other risks we have intrinsically accepted.
BC
Pretty darn good idea. Although maintaining discipline might be difficult.
I am concerned about low income kids in this. They already are disadvantaged educationally. That gets worse if it’s stay at home. Much worse.
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - teejers1 - 07-06-2020
(07-06-2020, 05:56 PM)lex24 Wrote:(07-06-2020, 08:40 AM)BostonCard Wrote: My compromise proposal is to open up schools and broadcast all the classes via zoom in real time. Families who are concerned about students bringing home COVID-19 to susceptible family members (say a multigeneration household with an elderly grandparent) can participate via zoom; it is sub-optimal but it is better than our current scenario. Teachers who are concerned about catching COVID-19 from their students can call into the zoom meetings and teach from home, perhaps with an in-school teachers aid to ensure the students are on task. Then everyone can assess risk on their own, and most importantly, students who are disadvantaged by poor internet at home or lack of technology to do the zoom call (or no parents at home to involve themselves in their children's learning) have a way to participate in school.
First principles first: you have to prioritize the children, and the kids are at a risk comparable to other risks we have intrinsically accepted.
BC
Pretty darn good idea. Although maintaining discipline might be difficult.
I am concerned about low income kids in this. They already are disadvantaged educationally. That gets worse if it’s stay at home. Much worse.
Agreed. Only add that all kids suffer - there is no substitute for in-classroom discipline, or the learning that goes on with classmate discussions. Really disappointed and distressed with the prospect of more at-home learning in PA schools this fall.
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - burger - 07-06-2020
(07-06-2020, 08:40 AM)BostonCard Wrote: My compromise proposal is to open up schools and broadcast all the classes via zoom in real time. Families who are concerned about students bringing home COVID-19 to susceptible family members (say a multigeneration household with an elderly grandparent) can participate via zoom; it is sub-optimal but it is better than our current scenario. Teachers who are concerned about catching COVID-19 from their students can call into the zoom meetings and teach from home, perhaps with an in-school teachers aid to ensure the students are on task. Then everyone can assess risk on their own, and most importantly, students who are disadvantaged by poor internet at home or lack of technology to do the zoom call (or no parents at home to involve themselves in their children's learning) have a way to participate in school.
First principles first: you have to prioritize the children, and the kids are at a risk comparable to other risks we have intrinsically accepted.
BC
I don't see how this will work. I expect many, if not most, teachers will choose to stay home (here's one story of many on this topic: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/teachers-worry-return-classroom-amid-surges-covid-19/story?id=71520956). That will limit the number of students that can go to school in person and be effectively supervised.
Also, small outbreaks will inevitably happen, and that will result in closing schools again or parents' pulling their kids out.
And letting parents assess risk on their own is going to mean that the parents who are not worried about the virus--and maybe most liable to catch it*--will be the ones who are sending their kids to school. That feels like a recipe for bad outcomes.
A better solution is to plan to do everything online and spend the money it takes to get laptops etc. in the hands of kids. Also, just like we have given up on having full employment during the pandemic, we probably have to give up on having an education system as good as we did before. It's not realistic to expect to do education well now.
For the record, I think the pre-covid education system was grossly unfair to poor people and minorities, and I am in favor of spending far more than we do now on education. But right now education should be way down the list of priorities. Not one person should die to give kids a marginally better education for what will hopefully be just a year.
*I have yet to see a study on how individual behavior like wearing masks, etc. correlates with your risk of getting the virus, but I would be shocked if there was no such relationship.
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - lex24 - 07-06-2020
(07-06-2020, 08:01 PM)burger Wrote:(07-06-2020, 08:40 AM)BostonCard Wrote: My compromise proposal is to open up schools and broadcast all the classes via zoom in real time. Families who are concerned about students bringing home COVID-19 to susceptible family members (say a multigeneration household with an elderly grandparent) can participate via zoom; it is sub-optimal but it is better than our current scenario. Teachers who are concerned about catching COVID-19 from their students can call into the zoom meetings and teach from home, perhaps with an in-school teachers aid to ensure the students are on task. Then everyone can assess risk on their own, and most importantly, students who are disadvantaged by poor internet at home or lack of technology to do the zoom call (or no parents at home to involve themselves in their children's learning) have a way to participate in school.
First principles first: you have to prioritize the children, and the kids are at a risk comparable to other risks we have intrinsically accepted.
BC
I don't see how this will work. I expect many, if not most, teachers will choose to stay home (here's one story of many on this topic: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/teachers-worry-return-classroom-amid-surges-covid-19/story?id=71520956). That will limit the number of students that can go to school in person and be effectively supervised.
Also, small outbreaks will inevitably happen, and that will result in closing schools again or parents' pulling their kids out.
And letting parents assess risk on their own is going to mean that the parents who are not worried about the virus--and maybe most liable to catch it*--will be the ones who are sending their kids to school. That feels like a recipe for bad outcomes.
A better solution is to plan to do everything online and spend the money it takes to get laptops etc. in the hands of kids. Also, just like we have given up on having full employment during the pandemic, we probably have to give up on having an education system as good as we did before. It's not realistic to expect to do education well now.
For the record, I think the pre-covid education system was grossly unfair to poor people and minorities, and I am in favor of spending far more than we do now on education. But right now education should be way down the list of priorities. Not one person should die to give kids a marginally better education for what will hopefully be just a year.
*I have yet to see a study on how individual behavior like wearing masks, etc. correlates with your risk of getting the virus, but I would be shocked if there was no such relationship.
Education should NEVER be low on the list of priorities. It’s very easy for those of us with means and educational foundations to say home schooling will be fine. For kids that are lucky enough to have the means and home support it will be.
It’s a different matter when you have neither. As for money for laptops, great. But if the child doesnt have a strong educational foundation at home and the parents aren’t either in a position or so inclined to provide support, you can’t solve that with money.
Furthering the education gap is a major potential problem. And a very important one.
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - BostonCard - 07-06-2020
Completely agree with Lex. Education is basically right behind food and healthcare in terms of essential services, and teachers should be considered essential employees. A short disruption in the fall was sub-optimal but acceptable under the circumstances. A prolonged disruption runs the risk of doing irreparable damage to a lot of kids, particularly those who were underprivileged, but even the most dedicated families cannot replicate the environment of being at school.
BC
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - burger - 07-06-2020
Death or major lung injury is irreparable. One year of suboptimal education is not.
Anyway, all of the moralizing about the importance of education is not going to matter when teachers choose not to go into classrooms or schools shut down after outbreaks.
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - BostonCard - 07-06-2020
[tweet]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1280209946085339136?s=20[/tweet]
Now, I'm going to go take a shower.
BC
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - teejers1 - 07-06-2020
(07-06-2020, 09:09 PM)burger Wrote: Death or major lung injury is irreparable. One year of suboptimal education is not.
Anyway, all of the moralizing about the importance of education is not going to matter when teachers choose not to go into classrooms or schools shut down after outbreaks.
It's already been (almost) 1/2 a year of suboptimal education for countless numbers of kids. What's another year? (Assuming there is a vaccine - a big assumption).
And I just love the sound bite: "Not one person should die to give kids a marginally better education for what will hopefully be just a year." And btw, I disagree with it, too. One life - let's say an 88 year old relative living with kids/grandkids - is not automatically "worth" more than the collective damage caused by hundreds of thousands of kids adrift in education for 1+ years. And I don't think even you believe that. But it sure sounds nice.
But fundamentally what I object to is the calculation of marginal risk versus benefit of a particular activity (which seemingly is lost in the discussion of "opening up = killing people = bad" versus "shutting down = saving lives = good"). Marginal risk is what every activity should be judged by, and of course within the broader picture of hospital capacity in a given area (which is largely ignored entirely). Now, it may be that the marginal risk of re-opening schools is greater than the benefits achieved by same in some (or even many/most) communities. But given the damage of kids educationally adrift - particularly less well-off kids- I sure would explore a lot of possibilities before throwing in the towel. For example: outdoor classes; on-days and off-days for 1/2 the student body; teacher leaves for all those 60 years old and above (or those having recognized co-morbidities); hiring a slew of young bloods to teach for those taking a year off for health concerns. There are options short of surrender that should be examined community-by-community.
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - BostonCard - 07-07-2020
(07-06-2020, 09:09 PM)burger Wrote: Death or major lung injury is irreparable. One year of suboptimal education is not.
Anyway, all of the moralizing about the importance of education is not going to matter when teachers choose not to go into classrooms or schools shut down after outbreaks.
I disagree. A year of suboptimal education may well have permanent consequences on a larger swath of kids than the small number who will get sick from COVID-19 and the very small number who may die. The IFR for kids under 18 is lower than influenza and we accept that risk in our kids.
BC
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - Snorlax94 - 07-07-2020
(07-06-2020, 08:01 PM)burger Wrote: A better solution is to plan to do everything online and spend the money it takes to get laptops etc. in the hands of kids. Also, just like we have given up on having full employment during the pandemic, we probably have to give up on having an education system as good as we did before. It's not realistic to expect to do education well now.My kids attend a public school with demographics reflective of SCC as a whole — about 1/3 Hispanic, 40%+ receiving subsidized or free lunch, and I can tell you “free laptops” will not work. My district was well aware of the inequality issues and invited students to pick up Chromebooks from the district and gave instructions for families to get subsidized or free Internet connections at home. And here’s what happened — the kids already doing well used their gigabit fiber connections and multimedia laptops from home and showed up almost every day and turned in all their homework and the kids who were struggling just disappeared from the system. They didn’t show up. Teachers tried contacting families, the district sent out reminders, but still, a sizable chunk of kids didn’t get worse instruction, they got no instruction. Many of them are also not getting fed as regularly. No one I know of is getting diagnosed with learning impediments, no english language learners are getting help, no previously-diagnosed students are receiving school-based therapies, as far as I know.
For the record, I think the pre-covid education system was grossly unfair to poor people and minorities, and I am in favor of spending far more than we do now on education. But right now education should be way down the list of priorities. Not one person should die to give kids a marginally better education for what will hopefully be just a year.
I frequently take walks near the schools. I saw many families misreading instructions on when and where to pick up the Chrome books. I saw the long lines of families waiting in line to get food, I saw the food bank workers snapping at families to come earlier after the food ran out, then I saw the truck pull out, and then I saw a continuous stream of cars arriving looking for the food truck. I can’t even tell you the worst things I’ve seen due to privacy concerns, but I can tell you, it is terible and heartbreaking, children are being harmed in lifelong ways, the increases in inequality are incalculable, and generally it is far worse than most people imagine.
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - burger - 07-07-2020
(07-07-2020, 12:09 AM)BostonCard Wrote:(07-06-2020, 09:09 PM)burger Wrote: Death or major lung injury is irreparable. One year of suboptimal education is not.
Anyway, all of the moralizing about the importance of education is not going to matter when teachers choose not to go into classrooms or schools shut down after outbreaks.
I disagree. A year of suboptimal education may well have permanent consequences on a larger swath of kids than the small number who will get sick from COVID-19 and the very small number who may die. The IFR for kids under 18 is lower than influenza and we accept that risk in our kids.
BC
I'm not talking about the kids' dying. I'm talking about the teachers. There are plenty of teachers in high risk groups and many near retirement age. They should not have to die when there are online alternatives.
I am not an education expert, but even I can think of ways to make up for things if this year ends up not providing a great education for a lot of kids. Let them go to school in summer. Increase funding for schools to hire more tutors and provide more help for kids who struggle. These are solvable problems. Death is not.
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - burger - 07-07-2020
(07-07-2020, 03:33 AM)Snorlax94 Wrote:(07-06-2020, 08:01 PM)burger Wrote: A better solution is to plan to do everything online and spend the money it takes to get laptops etc. in the hands of kids. Also, just like we have given up on having full employment during the pandemic, we probably have to give up on having an education system as good as we did before. It's not realistic to expect to do education well now.My kids attend a public school with demographics reflective of SCC as a whole — about 1/3 Hispanic, 40%+ receiving subsidized or free lunch, and I can tell you “free laptops” will not work. My district was well aware of the inequality issues and invited students to pick up Chromebooks from the district and gave instructions for families to get subsidized or free Internet connections at home. And here’s what happened — the kids already doing well used their gigabit fiber connections and multimedia laptops from home and showed up almost every day and turned in all their homework and the kids who were struggling just disappeared from the system. They didn’t show up. Teachers tried contacting families, the district sent out reminders, but still, a sizable chunk of kids didn’t get worse instruction, they got no instruction. Many of them are also not getting fed as regularly. No one I know of is getting diagnosed with learning impediments, no english language learners are getting help, no previously-diagnosed students are receiving school-based therapies, as far as I know.
For the record, I think the pre-covid education system was grossly unfair to poor people and minorities, and I am in favor of spending far more than we do now on education. But right now education should be way down the list of priorities. Not one person should die to give kids a marginally better education for what will hopefully be just a year.
I frequently take walks near the schools. I saw many families misreading instructions on when and where to pick up the Chrome books. I saw the long lines of families waiting in line to get food, I saw the food bank workers snapping at families to come earlier after the food ran out, then I saw the truck pull out, and then I saw a continuous stream of cars arriving looking for the food truck. I can’t even tell you the worst things I’ve seen due to privacy concerns, but I can tell you, it is terible and heartbreaking, children are being harmed in lifelong ways, the increases in inequality are incalculable, and generally it is far worse than most people imagine.
What's your evidence that children are being harmed in "lifelong" ways? I keep hearing this--are there studies to back this up?
And if this harm to children is real, does mitigating it make it okay to sacrifice the lives of some teachers? I guarantee that a full reopening of schools will kill teachers. Exactly how many teachers' deaths or lifelong health impairments are you comfortable with? Because for me that number is zero.
Schools can do a better job of getting kids to do online education. So far, we haven't even tried. I don't think that any of the covid relief bills so far have included money for schools. Turn the money cannon on and let the schools hire people to help get kids set up online and get internet connections (this can be done over cell networks--you don't need to wire every apartment and home for high speed internet). So far we have tried nothing, and you are saying that it's hopeless. Let's actually try to do online education before we give up.
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - rudruff - 07-07-2020
(07-06-2020, 05:45 PM)magnus Wrote:(07-06-2020, 12:12 PM)rudruff Wrote: https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882316641/what-parents-can-learn-from-child-care-centers-that-stayed-open-during-lockdownsTexas apparently has lots of cases... though it's a big state.
Encouraging data that kids are a poor vector for passing this around.
http://earlylearningnation.com/2020/06/opinion-child-cares-look-safe-its-time-to-act-like-it/
Opinion piece, but now I find myself trying to find anything about a cluster coming from a school or day care.
https://www.texastribune.org/2020/07/01/texas-day-care-coronavirus-cases-rising/
Search for day care outbreak and you'll find more. =(
This is actually pretty encouraging. 950 cases at 668 locations. Assuming at least one case is coming from outside each center. Most of the cohorting assumes you could limit the exposure to just the 10-12 staff/workers who the Covid positive person is with all day. The cases should be in the thousands if that were the limiting factor. Hoping the transmission threat for younger kids is overblown. Not sure at what age that goes away.
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - BostonCard - 07-07-2020
(07-07-2020, 07:34 AM)burger Wrote:(07-07-2020, 03:33 AM)Snorlax94 Wrote:(07-06-2020, 08:01 PM)burger Wrote: A better solution is to plan to do everything online and spend the money it takes to get laptops etc. in the hands of kids. Also, just like we have given up on having full employment during the pandemic, we probably have to give up on having an education system as good as we did before. It's not realistic to expect to do education well now.My kids attend a public school with demographics reflective of SCC as a whole — about 1/3 Hispanic, 40%+ receiving subsidized or free lunch, and I can tell you “free laptops” will not work. My district was well aware of the inequality issues and invited students to pick up Chromebooks from the district and gave instructions for families to get subsidized or free Internet connections at home. And here’s what happened — the kids already doing well used their gigabit fiber connections and multimedia laptops from home and showed up almost every day and turned in all their homework and the kids who were struggling just disappeared from the system. They didn’t show up. Teachers tried contacting families, the district sent out reminders, but still, a sizable chunk of kids didn’t get worse instruction, they got no instruction. Many of them are also not getting fed as regularly. No one I know of is getting diagnosed with learning impediments, no english language learners are getting help, no previously-diagnosed students are receiving school-based therapies, as far as I know.
For the record, I think the pre-covid education system was grossly unfair to poor people and minorities, and I am in favor of spending far more than we do now on education. But right now education should be way down the list of priorities. Not one person should die to give kids a marginally better education for what will hopefully be just a year.
I frequently take walks near the schools. I saw many families misreading instructions on when and where to pick up the Chrome books. I saw the long lines of families waiting in line to get food, I saw the food bank workers snapping at families to come earlier after the food ran out, then I saw the truck pull out, and then I saw a continuous stream of cars arriving looking for the food truck. I can’t even tell you the worst things I’ve seen due to privacy concerns, but I can tell you, it is terible and heartbreaking, children are being harmed in lifelong ways, the increases in inequality are incalculable, and generally it is far worse than most people imagine.
What's your evidence that children are being harmed in "lifelong" ways? I keep hearing this--are there studies to back this up?
And if this harm to children is real, does mitigating it make it okay to sacrifice the lives of some teachers? I guarantee that a full reopening of schools will kill teachers. Exactly how many teachers' deaths or lifelong health impairments are you comfortable with? Because for me that number is zero.
Schools can do a better job of getting kids to do online education. So far, we haven't even tried. I don't think that any of the covid relief bills so far have included money for schools. Turn the money cannon on and let the schools hire people to help get kids set up online and get internet connections (this can be done over cell networks--you don't need to wire every apartment and home for high speed internet). So far we have tried nothing, and you are saying that it's hopeless. Let's actually try to do online education before we give up.
In my suggested scenario, teachers who are concerned for their health can teach from home via zoom, with a large TV set up in the classroom and young, healthy monitors or teachers aids keeping the class under control. Also, as I said before, teachers should be considered essential employees, as we do with doctors and grocery workers.
BC
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - M T - 07-07-2020
(07-06-2020, 11:26 PM)teejers1 Wrote: One life - let's say an 88 year old relative living with kids/grandkids - is not automatically "worth" more than the collective damage caused by hundreds of thousands of kids adrift in education for 1+ years.
Is that your sound bite?
Let's memorialize that 88yo that someone who says that sound bite would choose to sacrifice for the education of hundreds of thousands of kids. But I can't identify him/her in the list of 130,000+ (so far.... in 1/3 of a year)
RE: Activities and their risk levels for coronavirus - burger - 07-07-2020
Well, I guess we'll find out very soon if opening schools is safe in the middle of a big outbreak:
Quote:Florida, the new US hotspot for coronavirus, will require schools to reopen in August.https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/07/us/florida-schools-reopen-august-trnd/index.html
The state's Commissioner of the Department of Education, Richard Corcoran, issued an emergency order on Monday requiring all "brick and mortar schools" to open "at least five days per week for all students."
Florida, which initially avoided the worst of the pandemic in its first few months, now has the third-highest number of coronavirus cases in the US at 206,000 and counting.
The article notes that teachers' unions are already pushing back.