Does anyone truly believe .... - Printable Version
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RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - lex24 - 07-07-2020
(07-07-2020, 04:49 PM)Papa John Wrote:(07-07-2020, 12:48 PM)paloalto Wrote:(07-07-2020, 05:55 AM)Phogge Wrote: What is crazy is that we have no national plan.
There are 50 governors who insist they have authority to control their state and constitutional law appears to support that view.
I don't buy it, paloalto. Under Ronald Reagan we raised the minimum drinking age to 21. The basic deal for states: raise your drinking age to 21 or we cut your federal highway funds.
If the federal government was so inclined, they could and would find a way to get states to mandate mask-wearing in public during a health emergency. I don't want to cross the no-politics rule, so I'm not saying what I think should be done, I'm just saying that it could be done.
Different era. Not nearly the partisanship. If that was tried today, a case would be brought in Federal Court and the Feds action would be deemed unconstitutional.
Remember the hue and cry when Trump said he could order the states to reopen? Here’s a reminder: https://www.npr.org/2020/04/14/834040912/fact-check-trump-doesnt-have-the-authority-to-order-states-to-reopen
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - BostonCard - 07-07-2020
I feel like this should be on the COVID board.
Trump does not have the authority to close or open any state. Since congress controls the purse, making funding for something contingent on following certain guidelines for locking down would require a congressional act. Either way, not the administration's responsibility (other than to ask congress for that authority).
But I would settle for leadership on the issue that provided clear guidance to states on when and how to institute social distancing measures, and a clear consistent voice from the administration. Might certain state governments ignore such guidance? Sure, but then any problems are on them.
BC
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - OutsiderFan - 07-08-2020
(07-07-2020, 08:42 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(07-07-2020, 06:11 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Agree that feds could have set a national guideline and 'strongly encouraged' certain actions via the federal purse (how about no HHS $$ unless state has indoor mask-wearing mandate?). Also agree that we have had no federal "plan of action" at all. A multi-trillion dollar expenditure to . . . nowhere in particular.
What actions would those have been? Here's Dr Fauci's opinion in mid February: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/02/17/nih-disease-official-anthony-fauci-risk-of-coronavirus-in-u-s-is-minuscule-skip-mask-and-wash-hands/4787209002/
So, the long serving experts advising the government were dead wrong from the outset. As were the WHO and the CDC, and the predictors from Washington. . . . .
Reluctant to post a contrarian view, as I've been summarily banned from the Covid forum and can't post there, and therefore expect to be banned from here as well. Ironically, the mottos from my alma maters are "Truth" and "The Winds of Freedom Blow". . . . .
What's wrong about Fauci's February statement? Operating on what he knew at the time, he said there was nothing to worry about. But he qualified that by saying if the spread is a lot more pervasive than we know, "we've got a problem." The spread was in fact more pervasive than known because we didn't do any surveillance testing, arguably the greatest failure of this whole sorry episode. That being said, I feel 100% confident that even if surveillance picked up more known cases, many government managers wouldn't have taken it seriously, wouldn't have got behind strong NPIs, and we still would have ended up with a disaster.
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - Phogge - 07-08-2020
And now there is evidence that the virus is airborne meaning that it lingers in the air in enclosed places. No arena sports with spectators and dangerous for players.
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - lex24 - 07-08-2020
(07-08-2020, 04:55 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(07-07-2020, 08:42 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(07-07-2020, 06:11 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Agree that feds could have set a national guideline and 'strongly encouraged' certain actions via the federal purse (how about no HHS $$ unless state has indoor mask-wearing mandate?). Also agree that we have had no federal "plan of action" at all. A multi-trillion dollar expenditure to . . . nowhere in particular.
What actions would those have been? Here's Dr Fauci's opinion in mid February: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/02/17/nih-disease-official-anthony-fauci-risk-of-coronavirus-in-u-s-is-minuscule-skip-mask-and-wash-hands/4787209002/
So, the long serving experts advising the government were dead wrong from the outset. As were the WHO and the CDC, and the predictors from Washington. . . . .
Reluctant to post a contrarian view, as I've been summarily banned from the Covid forum and can't post there, and therefore expect to be banned from here as well. Ironically, the mottos from my alma maters are "Truth" and "The Winds of Freedom Blow". . . . .
What's wrong about Fauci's February statement? Operating on what he knew at the time, he said there was nothing to worry about. But he qualified that by saying if the spread is a lot more pervasive than we know, "we've got a problem." The spread was in fact more pervasive than known because we didn't do any surveillance testing, arguably the greatest failure of this whole sorry episode. That being said, I feel 100% confident that even if surveillance picked up more known cases, many government managers wouldn't have taken it seriously, wouldn't have got behind strong NPIs, and we still would have ended up with a disaster.
What’s wrong with Fauccis statement is he was not being truthful. Which he has admitted.
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - SamuelMcF - 07-08-2020
Covid board?
Admins?
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - terry - 07-08-2020
(07-07-2020, 11:08 PM)lex24 Wrote:(07-07-2020, 04:49 PM)Papa John Wrote: Under Ronald Reagan we raised the minimum drinking age to 21. The basic deal for states: raise your drinking age to 21 or we cut your federal highway funds.
If the federal government was so inclined, they could and would find a way to get states to mandate mask-wearing in public during a health emergency. I don't want to cross the no-politics rule, so I'm not saying what I think should be done, I'm just saying that it could be done.
Different era. Not nearly the partisanship. If that was tried today, a case would be brought in Federal Court and the Feds action would be deemed unconstitutional.
The drinking age issue actually did go to the Supreme Court. South Dakota v. Dole (1987). The court held that Congress could withhold 5% of highway funds from states that did not have a drinking age of 21. There are ways for Congress to use federal funds to nudge the states, so long as it's not overly coercive.
The president doesn't have power over federal funds, nor can he impose a mask requirement by edict. But he has a position that gives him a lot of influence, if he wants to use it.
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - BostonCard - 07-08-2020
Moved to the more appropriate forum; a redirect link will stay in the main Cardboard for 7 days.
Lex, do you have a link to his statement saying he hadn't been truthful back in February?
BC
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - g1313 - 07-08-2020
Not NBA players, but this article covers some professional players (like Von Miller) who did show symptoms (although fortunately have appeared to recover). https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/sports/coronavirus-survivors-athletes.html
(07-06-2020, 11:35 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(07-06-2020, 07:14 PM)lex24 Wrote: That there will be a baseball season or that the NBA returns? No way.
If baseball does not come back, it will NOT be due to health issues. There is so little marginal risk with playing baseball - outdoors where no competitor has much contact/interaction with other competitors, let alone while breathing heavily. Just look at success of Bundesliga, PL, and Korean and Japanese baseball to see that Covid should NOT prevent teams from competing.
The NBA is a higher-risk endeavor. But even then, I don't think the risk is that great, especially with competitors in "the bubble." For starters, do you know of an NBA player who was actually sick - let alone really sick - as a result of Covid? I've read a lot about players testing positive, but very little on people actually being sick. Second, how can the health risk be greater in a bubble than what they are doing now? Do you think those players are not interacting at all with the outside world? I mean, how do you think they contracted the virus in the first place? (Before reporting to the bubble, btw)? I'm sure there are scenarios you can come up with where competing in bubble against other players tested/cleared in advance is higher risk than how NBA players are living now. But I'd bet good money those scenarios are rare (or non-existent) in the real world the NBA players are living in now.
So yeah, NBA and MLB may not have games. But it's hard for me to believe that what prevents that from happening are legitimate safety concerns. But that's just my jaded view.
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - CardPhD - 07-08-2020
(07-06-2020, 07:29 PM)BobK Wrote: Yes. I believe
Me too, and once one sports play they will all be back... life is coming back folks.
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - teejers1 - 07-08-2020
(07-08-2020, 05:38 PM)g1313 Wrote: Not NBA players, but this article covers some professional players (like Von Miller) who did show symptoms (although fortunately have appeared to recover). https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/sports/coronavirus-survivors-athletes.html
There's a shocker: The NYT runs a story on pro athletes who actually experienced symptoms. Does the article identify the total number of pro athletes that have tested positive? The subset of that total that were hospitalized? The subset of that number that experienced symptoms? The time to recover from the symptoms for these athletes.
I think this is pretty relevant data in terms of evaluating the marginal risk of engaging in the activity. But you never see articles devoted to that (or at least I haven't). Instead, you have to dig into an article about a pro athlete who tests positive (always the headline) to see if he is asymptomatic or not . . . and often (especially early on) there was no info on that at all. A conspiracy theorist might believe that certain media outlets are trying to paint the grimmest possible picture and discourage any movement toward a return to normalcy.
Why would that be . . . ? [And it's pointless now as November is a foregone conclusion].
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - OutsiderFan - 07-09-2020
(07-08-2020, 11:07 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(07-08-2020, 05:38 PM)g1313 Wrote: Not NBA players, but this article covers some professional players (like Von Miller) who did show symptoms (although fortunately have appeared to recover). https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/sports/coronavirus-survivors-athletes.html
There's a shocker: The NYT runs a story on pro athletes who actually experienced symptoms. Does the article identify the total number of pro athletes that have tested positive? The subset of that total that were hospitalized? The subset of that number that experienced symptoms? The time to recover from the symptoms for these athletes.
I think this is pretty relevant data in terms of evaluating the marginal risk of engaging in the activity. But you never see articles devoted to that (or at least I haven't). Instead, you have to dig into an article about a pro athlete who tests positive (always the headline) to see if he is asymptomatic or not . . . and often (especially early on) there was no info on that at all. A conspiracy theorist might believe that certain media outlets are trying to paint the grimmest possible picture and discourage any movement toward a return to normalcy.
Why would that be . . . ? [And it's pointless now as November is a foregone conclusion].
Don't confuse trying to protect the health of individuals and of greater society as a conspiracy based on political ideology if you want to be taken seriously:
https://thecardboard.org/board/showthread.php?tid=20035
And then there is this...
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/covid-hits-legislators-amid-rapid-spread-mississippi-71684159
Here you have GOP lawmakers testing positive in droves after having a no mask legislative session in the capitol for two weeks. And the cherry on top of this sundae: The GOP Governor is now talking about a mandatory mask ordinance for the state.
If Covid-19 was being sensationalized by the media to help influence an election, why would a Governor who refused to take any serious action to stop the virus previously, all of a sudden find religion about mask wearing? If it was no big deal, why would so many GOP pols be dropping out of attending its ill-conceived party convention in a few weeks? Why? Why would such an innocuous thing make those who downplayed the virus a few months ago, now freak out about it? What would be the reason?
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - teejers1 - 07-09-2020
(07-09-2020, 06:07 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(07-08-2020, 11:07 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(07-08-2020, 05:38 PM)g1313 Wrote: Not NBA players, but this article covers some professional players (like Von Miller) who did show symptoms (although fortunately have appeared to recover). https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/sports/coronavirus-survivors-athletes.html
There's a shocker: The NYT runs a story on pro athletes who actually experienced symptoms. Does the article identify the total number of pro athletes that have tested positive? The subset of that total that were hospitalized? The subset of that number that experienced symptoms? The time to recover from the symptoms for these athletes.
I think this is pretty relevant data in terms of evaluating the marginal risk of engaging in the activity. But you never see articles devoted to that (or at least I haven't). Instead, you have to dig into an article about a pro athlete who tests positive (always the headline) to see if he is asymptomatic or not . . . and often (especially early on) there was no info on that at all. A conspiracy theorist might believe that certain media outlets are trying to paint the grimmest possible picture and discourage any movement toward a return to normalcy.
Why would that be . . . ? [And it's pointless now as November is a foregone conclusion].
Don't confuse trying to protect the health of individuals and of greater society as a conspiracy based on political ideology if you want to be taken seriously:
https://thecardboard.org/board/showthread.php?tid=20035
And then there is this...
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/covid-hits-legislators-amid-rapid-spread-mississippi-71684159
Here you have GOP lawmakers testing positive in droves after having a no mask legislative session in the capitol for two weeks. And the cherry on top of this sundae: The GOP Governor is now talking about a mandatory mask ordinance for the state.
If Covid-19 was being sensationalized by the media to help influence an election, why would a Governor who refused to take any serious action to stop the virus previously, all of a sudden find religion about mask wearing? If it was no big deal, why would so many GOP pols be dropping out of attending its ill-conceived party convention in a few weeks? Why? Why would such an innocuous thing make those who downplayed the virus a few months ago, now freak out about it? What would be the reason?
Yes, yes, Outsider - you are the self-ordained Font of Truth. Thank you for deigning to advise us minions on what to do to be taken seriously.
And speaking of seriously, what's revealing is your apparent belief that coverage on the pandemic by the MSM has been just the reporting of all relevant facts without any agenda. And btw, that reality and the reality that Covid is a significant health issue that should be taken seriously are not mutually exclusive.
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - OutsiderFan - 07-09-2020
(07-09-2020, 09:45 AM)teejers1 Wrote:(07-09-2020, 06:07 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(07-08-2020, 11:07 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(07-08-2020, 05:38 PM)g1313 Wrote: Not NBA players, but this article covers some professional players (like Von Miller) who did show symptoms (although fortunately have appeared to recover). https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/sports/coronavirus-survivors-athletes.html
There's a shocker: The NYT runs a story on pro athletes who actually experienced symptoms. Does the article identify the total number of pro athletes that have tested positive? The subset of that total that were hospitalized? The subset of that number that experienced symptoms? The time to recover from the symptoms for these athletes.
I think this is pretty relevant data in terms of evaluating the marginal risk of engaging in the activity. But you never see articles devoted to that (or at least I haven't). Instead, you have to dig into an article about a pro athlete who tests positive (always the headline) to see if he is asymptomatic or not . . . and often (especially early on) there was no info on that at all. A conspiracy theorist might believe that certain media outlets are trying to paint the grimmest possible picture and discourage any movement toward a return to normalcy.
Why would that be . . . ? [And it's pointless now as November is a foregone conclusion].
Don't confuse trying to protect the health of individuals and of greater society as a conspiracy based on political ideology if you want to be taken seriously:
https://thecardboard.org/board/showthread.php?tid=20035
And then there is this...
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/covid-hits-legislators-amid-rapid-spread-mississippi-71684159
Here you have GOP lawmakers testing positive in droves after having a no mask legislative session in the capitol for two weeks. And the cherry on top of this sundae: The GOP Governor is now talking about a mandatory mask ordinance for the state.
If Covid-19 was being sensationalized by the media to help influence an election, why would a Governor who refused to take any serious action to stop the virus previously, all of a sudden find religion about mask wearing? If it was no big deal, why would so many GOP pols be dropping out of attending its ill-conceived party convention in a few weeks? Why? Why would such an innocuous thing make those who downplayed the virus a few months ago, now freak out about it? What would be the reason?
Yes, yes, Outsider - you are the self-ordained Font of Truth. Thank you for deigning to advise us minions on what to do to be taken seriously.
And speaking of seriously, what's revealing is your apparent belief that coverage on the pandemic by the MSM has been just the reporting of all relevant facts without any agenda. And btw, that reality and the reality that Covid is a significant health issue that should be taken seriously are not mutually exclusive.
Given this is correct, why die on the baseless conspiracy theory hill? There are ways to say you would "take things with a grain of salt" that don't impugn credibility.
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - teejers1 - 07-09-2020
(07-09-2020, 10:44 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(07-09-2020, 09:45 AM)teejers1 Wrote: Yes, yes, Outsider - you are the self-ordained Font of Truth. Thank you for deigning to advise us minions on what to do to be taken seriously.
And speaking of seriously, what's revealing is your apparent belief that coverage on the pandemic by the MSM has been just the reporting of all relevant facts without any agenda. And btw, that reality and the reality that Covid is a significant health issue that should be taken seriously are not mutually exclusive.
Given this is correct, why die on the baseless conspiracy theory hill? There are ways to say you would "take things with a grain of salt" that don't impugn credibility.
Why die on being intentionally blind to MSM tilts/agendas? And I don't view it as a "conspiracy" at all . . . just a fact observation on how "news" is reported and how "facts" are presented (most of MSM agendas one way; Fox (and perhaps others) agenda another way).
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - 76lsjumb - 07-09-2020
(07-09-2020, 12:41 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(07-09-2020, 10:44 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(07-09-2020, 09:45 AM)teejers1 Wrote: Yes, yes, Outsider - you are the self-ordained Font of Truth. Thank you for deigning to advise us minions on what to do to be taken seriously.
And speaking of seriously, what's revealing is your apparent belief that coverage on the pandemic by the MSM has been just the reporting of all relevant facts without any agenda. And btw, that reality and the reality that Covid is a significant health issue that should be taken seriously are not mutually exclusive.
Given this is correct, why die on the baseless conspiracy theory hill? There are ways to say you would "take things with a grain of salt" that don't impugn credibility.
Why die on being intentionally blind to MSM tilts/agendas? And I don't view it as a "conspiracy" at all . . . just a fact observation on how "news" is reported and how "facts" are presented (most of MSM agendas one way; Fox (and perhaps others) agenda another way).
OF -- Here's a truth to chew on for a while: There are none so blind as those who will not see.
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - oldalum - 07-09-2020
(07-08-2020, 11:07 PM)teejers1 Wrote: There's a shocker: The NYT runs a story on pro athletes who actually experienced symptoms. Does the article identify the total number of pro athletes that have tested positive? The subset of that total that were hospitalized? The subset of that number that experienced symptoms? The time to recover from the symptoms for these athletes. . . .I would be cautious about assuming that asymptomatic infection = no harm. Imaging studies show pneumonitis (pneumonia) in asymptomatic patients, and a unique characteristic of covid-19 pneumonitis is that people can be impressively hypoxemic and not realize it. Whether that will result in permanent lung damage is not yet known. But even a minor decrement in lung function, while meaningless to a schmoe like me, might affect athletic performance in many sports. If I was an elite athlete--which I'm sure I am in an alternate universe--I would strongly want not to be infected.
I think this is pretty relevant data in terms of evaluating the marginal risk of engaging in the activity.
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - teejers1 - 07-09-2020
(07-09-2020, 01:30 PM)oldalum Wrote: I would be cautious about assuming that asymptomatic infection = no harm. Imaging studies show pneumonitis (pneumonia) in asymptomatic patients, and a unique characteristic of cover-19 pneumonitis is that people can be impressively hypoxemic and not realize it. Whether that will result in permanent lung damage is not yet known. But even a minor decrement in lung function, while meaningless to a schmoe like me, might affect athletic performance in many sports. If I was an elite athlete--which I'm sure I am in an alternate universe--I would strongly want not to be infected.
You could be right about unknown long-term ill-effects. We may not ever know for sure on that; or if we do, it could well take years before a conclusion may be comfortably drawn.
I feel pretty good about this observation, however: numerous players in PL and Bundesliga tested positive before the re-start. They did not disclose specific names, so it's impossible to tie Positive A with Player A; however, I have yet to see any report of players who have been held out for health reasons (other than typical injuries). This is not conclusive by any means (and I could have missed reports); however, I have a strong suspicion that if Player A is sitting out because he still is feeling adverse side-effects from having had Covid 19 and subsequently tested negative, it would have been leaked/reported. But maybe not - maybe European reporting is much better than US reporters are about not leaking personal private health information about star athletes.
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - fullmetal - 07-10-2020
I'd like to see confirmation (verification of no false positives) of those PL/Bundesliga data points before I buy into the conclusion, which is quite appealing. However, I don't think I'm ever going to hear confirmation of that...
I do have it on good authority (friend of friend) that high-level athletes are taking up to two months to recover from non-hospitalized cases of covid. The friend of a friend needed a whole month before feeling "normal" again. No one's writing articles on this as it would expose coaches and trainers to all kinds of scrutiny, possibly legal, involving their risk mitigation practices, athletes' well-being, and infection protocols vs. local public health edicts.
RE: Does anyone truly believe .... - OutsiderFan - 07-10-2020
(07-10-2020, 01:14 AM)fullmetal Wrote: I'd like to see confirmation (verification of no false positives) of those PL/Bundesliga data points before I buy into the conclusion, which is quite appealing. However, I don't think I'm ever going to hear confirmation of that...
I do have it on good authority (friend of friend) that high-level athletes are taking up to two months to recover from non-hospitalized cases of covid. The friend of a friend needed a whole month before feeling "normal" again. No one's writing articles on this as it would expose coaches and trainers to all kinds of scrutiny, possibly legal, involving their risk mitigation practices, athletes' well-being, and infection protocols vs. local public health edicts.
But I thought the news media only blew things out of proportion to make them look worse than they really are?
In all seriousness, this tracks to what I have gathered. There are some who never experience symptoms, but those who do, even in the least severe cases, are laid up for 2-3 weeks, take an additional week to recover back to even being able to walk for more than a few minutes again, let alone get back to competitive athlete shape. And then it gets worse from there. And of course, there is evidence of lung damage even in those who don't ever present symptoms, and reported this week, brain damage possible too.