Threats to public health officials - Printable Version
+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: Emergency (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-11.html)
+--- Forum: Covid-19 (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-12.html)
+--- Thread: Threats to public health officials (/thread-20912.html)
+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: Emergency (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-11.html)
+--- Forum: Covid-19 (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-12.html)
+--- Thread: Threats to public health officials (/thread-20912.html)
RE: Threats to public health officials - Goose - 11-19-2020
(11-19-2020, 08:31 PM)dabigv13 Wrote:Yes, it was legal. And after it was done, nobody said a word. Therein lies the difference. Hitler had tried an armed coup in Bavaria. It failed. By the time he was in a position to take power in Germany, the country was desperate. He was ushered into power by the establishment and after he "won" the plebiscite, nobody said a word.Quote:No, it is not at all. A coup by dismantling democracy can be countered by the people, because there is no force in place to defeat the people. One established by rifles is a lot different, because if the people resist, they are killed. Do you think for one minute that a legislature that was attempting to appoint electors contrary to the election results would survive the attempt? I certainly do not, because even many Trump supporters would regard that as a bridge too far.
History disagrees. To take probably the most well known example, Hitler came to power democratically, before assuming total power by the assent of his conservative coalition members. It was all "legal".
The bottom line is there is one party in the US that is either actively participating in, or standing by watching, while their leader attempts to subvert democracy. Anyone with a knowledge of history should be very concerned about the direction the US is going in, near-term and far.
Do you, in your wildest imagination, believe that the 79 million people that voted for Biden will sit on their hands if Trump is ushered back into power? Please! There is no comparison between the USA and the Weimar Republic. First, a large percentage of the population were Monarchists. Not many of those in the USA. Second, there was essentially no Democratic experience in Germany at that time. Destroying democracy wasn't viewed as a bad idea by lots of the population. Third, does Trump have any organization with the power and organization of the SA? No, he has maybe a few crazies. Last of all, but probably most important, we are not (yet at least) economically desperate.
I do agree with you that we need to be concerned where the USA is going. However, I don't see Trump as the one leading us to our downfall. I see him as a symptom. He will soon be gone. It is what can follow him that must concern us.
RE: Threats to public health officials - teejers1 - 11-19-2020
(11-19-2020, 08:00 PM)Goose Wrote: In most cases the Republican officials cannot stop him from filing lawsuits, even frivolous ones,. They also do not have to do so if these lawsuits are subsequently dismissed. I will worry only when and if it appears that some State cannot certify it's results. It does not appear that is a danger at the moment. I also have enough faith in the legal system that I do not fear that approach has any chance of succeeding.
Exactly. A little faith in the institutions and systems that have been in place for a couple hundred years (some of them). They are not going to come tumbling down because one sore loser can't come to grips with the reality that an overwhelming majority of Americans have accepted: Trump lost the election . . . fair and square.
P.S. It's not as if lawsuits challenging presidential election results is brand new. And I'd argue there is a place for such challenges. But when the challenges have no merit, then they will be defeated. That's the way it's supposed to work.
RE: Threats to public health officials - DenverCard - 11-19-2020
What frightens me is how many Americans embrace the craziest conspiracy theories with religious conviction. Years ago, I remember smiling as I read the nutty headlines of National Enquirer as I went through the check-out line at the grocery store, wondering how anyone would pay to read that garbage. Now orders of magnitude more people -- or so it seems -- are willing to believe, and act upon, equally crazy ideas, absent any good evidence. And there are a number of very smart, articulate opportunists who are willing to profit from fueling the flames, thereby incentivizing them to amplify the lies.
Apparently tonight on Fox, Trump water-carrier Tucker Carlson merely offered the observation that Rudy Giuliani had provided no evidence to support his claims that 1.5 million or 2 million votes have been stolen, or whatever the claim du jour is. And rather than replies from Trump supporters along the lines of, "You know, you make a good point," the mob turned on Carlson as a traitor to the cause.
I fear our institutions are not as strong as some Cardboarders believe, especially when under threat from such a sizeable percentage of the population and fomented by many powerful individuals.
RE: Threats to public health officials - JustAnotherFan - 11-20-2020
I am glad that some people are recognizing that there are people in positions of power who are trying to orchestrate a coup. When I suggested on this board that there was a non-zero probability chance of a coup post-election a few months ago, people were quick to attack me for it. I'd like to think that opinions have shifted since then. Coups benefit from people denying that coups are possible.
It's amazing how Covid-19 has brought out the best and worst in people in so many ways.
RE: Threats to public health officials - Genuine Realist - 11-20-2020
(11-20-2020, 04:56 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote: I am glad that some people are recognizing that there are people in positions of power who are trying to orchestrate a coup. When I suggested on this board that there was a non-zero probability chance of a coup post-election a few months ago, people were quick to attack me for it. I'd like to think that opinions have shifted since then. Coups benefit from people denying that coups are possible.Given the intrusiveness of the SIP regimen into the patterns of everyday life, as they existed not so long ago, controversy, debate, and criticism was inevitable. Given the numbers involved, some hysterics are bound to be heard. Hostility to authority is part of the DNA in this society - and the possibility of bureaucratic overkill is obvious with regulations as comprehensive as these are. Bueaucratic overkill has undoubtedly occurred. I'm thinking particularly of school closings.
It's amazing how Covid-19 has brought out the best and worst in people in so many ways.
Given the oddities of the election due to covid, legal challenges to the election by the losers were inevitable - and healthy. What they have demonstrated emphatically is exact opposite of what they hoped to show, that is, the integrity of the election. Trump's legal team, apparently recruited from the Buddy Teevens law school, is now 0-21.
All this is a long way from a coup. The worst I could wish you is that you live through a real one. What Trump is doing is far more cynical. He's fully aware he lost, and ultimately will (grudgingly) accept . He's feeding the conspiracist fantasies of his core followers, which is despicable. Those of us who reserved some hyperbole in condemnation of Trump are rather glad we did so, as he really deserves it now.
RE: Threats to public health officials - Goose - 11-20-2020
(11-19-2020, 10:16 PM)DenverCard Wrote: Apparently tonight on Fox, Trump water-carrier Tucker Carlson merely offered the observation that Rudy Giuliani had provided no evidence to support his claims that 1.5 million or 2 million votes have been stolen, or whatever the claim du jour is. And rather than replies from Trump supporters along the lines of, "You know, you make a good point," the mob turned on Carlson as a traitor to the cause.
I fear our institutions are not as strong as some Cardboarders believe, especially when under threat from such a sizeable percentage of the population and fomented by many powerful individuals.
I actually fear something else. I think our institutions are actually pretty resilient. There are always some people on both sides of any issue that are rabid supporters and beyond reason. What I actually fear is the fact there there are probably 60+ million people who are basically rational and voted for the current POTUS anyway. Many of these people are single issue voters. They aren't going to vote for any candidate who is on the other side of a given issue no matter how bad the selected candidate may be on all the other issues. Many more people believe the current political class has totally abandoned them and desperately want literally anybody else. The latter group should really give pause to those who are concerned about our democracy. The "crazies" are bad enough, but much fewer in number. It is the people who aren't crazy (or stupid, believe it or not) who still believe the current POTUS is a better choice that should raise questions about where we are as a democracy.
RE: Threats to public health officials - BostonCard - 11-20-2020
(11-19-2020, 08:44 PM)BostonCard Wrote: I believe this is the last post in this thread that mentions COVID-19. Please let's refocus all.
BC
Re-upping this, as much as it pains me because I am enjoying the discussion and have thoughts.
Giuliani is talking about the election, not COVID-19. Carlson is talking about the election, not COVID-19. Whether a coup is carried out or not will not be dependent on COVID-19. Please, let's keep the discussion focused on the virus and direct actions on it.
BC
RE: Threats to public health officials - magnus - 11-20-2020
Did I read Giuliani?
His son Andrew, a White House staffer, just tested positive for covid. =/
RE: Threats to public health officials - teejers1 - 11-20-2020
(11-20-2020, 10:10 AM)Goose Wrote:(11-19-2020, 10:16 PM)DenverCard Wrote: Apparently tonight on Fox, Trump water-carrier Tucker Carlson merely offered the observation that Rudy Giuliani had provided no evidence to support his claims that 1.5 million or 2 million votes have been stolen, or whatever the claim du jour is. And rather than replies from Trump supporters along the lines of, "You know, you make a good point," the mob turned on Carlson as a traitor to the cause.
I fear our institutions are not as strong as some Cardboarders believe, especially when under threat from such a sizeable percentage of the population and fomented by many powerful individuals.
I actually fear something else. I think our institutions are actually pretty resilient. There are always some people on both sides of any issue that are rabid supporters and beyond reason. What I actually fear is the fact there there are probably 60+ million people who are basically rational and voted for the current POTUS anyway. Many of these people are single issue voters. They aren't going to vote for any candidate who is on the other side of a given issue no matter how bad the selected candidate may be on all the other issues. Many more people believe the current political class has totally abandoned them and desperately want literally anybody else. The latter group should really give pause to those who are concerned about our democracy. The "crazies" are bad enough, but much fewer in number. It is the people who aren't crazy (or stupid, believe it or not) who still believe the current POTUS is a better choice that should raise questions about where we are as a democracy.
There are no doubt some single-issue voters who supported Trump - e.g., those who believe Covid is a hoax (see what I did there, BC?) - who are kooks.
But there are also single-issue voter who supported Trump - because he won't tax them as much as Biden will - who are perfectly bright people concerned about their money first and foremost (and with an ability to put on blinders for slew of lesser issues).
There might also have been some number of voters who question Biden's capacity to govern - he actually fared better than I anticipated on this during the campaign, as limited as it was for him. I wouldn't consider that totally irrational, either.
RE: Threats to public health officials - Genuine Realist - 11-20-2020
(11-20-2020, 12:42 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(a) Covid has had such a devastating effect on lifestyles, and the mobility we all used to take for granted that it's no wonder that a small but vocal portion of the population turns to various theories of demonization. I remember 1973, when gasoline suddenly disappeared from the stations, after the formation of OPEC. There were a lot of people who should have known better who went around believing that brobdingnagian tankers were circling around in mid-ocean,simply waiting for price levels to rise. It made no sense at all, but it gave comfort - there was a human cause for all this. Claims of covid hoax are the same.(11-20-2020, 10:10 AM)Goose Wrote:(11-19-2020, 10:16 PM)DenverCard Wrote: Apparently tonight on Fox, Trump water-carrier Tucker Carlson merely offered the observation that Rudy Giuliani had provided no evidence to support his claims that 1.5 million or 2 million votes have been stolen, or whatever the claim du jour is. And rather than replies from Trump supporters along the lines of, "You know, you make a good point," the mob turned on Carlson as a traitor to the cause.
I fear our institutions are not as strong as some Cardboarders believe, especially when under threat from such a sizeable percentage of the population and fomented by many powerful individuals.
I actually fear something else. I think our institutions are actually pretty resilient. There are always some people on both sides of any issue that are rabid supporters and beyond reason. What I actually fear is the fact there there are probably 60+ million people who are basically rational and voted for the current POTUS anyway. Many of these people are single issue voters. They aren't going to vote for any candidate who is on the other side of a given issue no matter how bad the selected candidate may be on all the other issues. Many more people believe the current political class has totally abandoned them and desperately want literally anybody else. The latter group should really give pause to those who are concerned about our democracy. The "crazies" are bad enough, but much fewer in number. It is the people who aren't crazy (or stupid, believe it or not) who still believe the current POTUS is a better choice that should raise questions about where we are as a democracy.
There are no doubt some single-issue voters who supported Trump - e.g., those who believe Covid is a hoax (see what I did there, BC?) - who are kooks.
But there are also single-issue voter who supported Trump - because he won't tax them as much as Biden will - who are perfectly bright people concerned about their money first and foremost (and with an ability to put on blinders for slew of lesser issues).
There might also have been some number of voters who question Biden's capacity to govern - he actually fared better than I anticipated on this during the campaign, as limited as it was for him. I wouldn't consider that totally irrational, either.
(b) There is no coup. There isn't going to be a coup. There is no GOP or Democratic or military support for the same. You will notice that there have been no street riots on behalf of Trump, no massive outcry. (If Trump had unexpectedly won, I don't know how many cities would have gone up.)
© That said, I'm glad I reserved my hyperbole about Trump all these years, because now it's meaningful. Donald J. Trump is really in dangerous ground - personally. (The nation will do fine.) If he is in truth trying to undermine certified election results, after they've been tested and validated in court, cognizable theories of sedition and treason begin to emerge - and, yes, Virginia, I would like to see him prosecuted because I don't want to see anyone behaving like this again. The days when the somewhat unfairly demonized Nixon would relinquish really solid claims of election fraud (in 1960, when the Daley machine in Chicago scrupulously protected the right of the dead to vote) in the interest of national unity have passed. A shame, really - the process is so much more important than the result.
Not that the Democrats have been blameless. Trump's legal claims may have failed factually, but they were far more conventional than the lawsuits Al Gore brought in 2000. But at least when Gore lost, he accepted it. Trump is on the verge of treason.
RE: Threats to public health officials - Mick - 11-22-2020
(11-20-2020, 04:56 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote: I am glad that some people are recognizing that there are people in positions of power who are trying to orchestrate a coup. When I suggested on this board that there was a non-zero probability chance of a coup post-election a few months ago, people were quick to attack me for it. I'd like to think that opinions have shifted since then. Coups benefit from people denying that coups are possible.
It's amazing how Covid-19 has brought out the best and worst in people in so many ways.
A coup isn't possible for all the reasons stated previously. There is zero chance, no chance, none, nada. No one would stand for it, not Biden supporters, not trump supporters, no one in the military, no one in civilian life. The current system has worked pretty well for longer than all of our lifetimes, the average American does pretty well, and yes, there is a very small, very tiny proportion of the population who do, say and believe in ridiculous things like COVID-19 is the same as any flu. Please don't elevate that stupidity into anything remotely like broad acceptance.
(11-20-2020, 10:10 AM)Goose Wrote: I actually fear something else. I think our institutions are actually pretty resilient. There are always some people on both sides of any issue that are rabid supporters and beyond reason. What I actually fear is the fact there there are probably 60+ million people who are basically rational and voted for the current POTUS anyway. Many of these people are single issue voters. They aren't going to vote for any candidate who is on the other side of a given issue no matter how bad the selected candidate may be on all the other issues. Many more people believe the current political class has totally abandoned them and desperately want literally anybody else. The latter group should really give pause to those who are concerned about our democracy. The "crazies" are bad enough, but much fewer in number. It is the people who aren't crazy (or stupid, believe it or not) who still believe the current POTUS is a better choice that should raise questions about where we are as a democracy.
Goose hits the nail on the head. People who feel abandoned, who don't feel they have a voice turn to populist alternatives, or at least alternatives that comply with their history and experiences.
RE: Threats to public health officials - JustAnotherFan - 11-22-2020
(11-22-2020, 08:26 AM)Mick Wrote:(11-20-2020, 04:56 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote: I am glad that some people are recognizing that there are people in positions of power who are trying to orchestrate a coup. When I suggested on this board that there was a non-zero probability chance of a coup post-election a few months ago, people were quick to attack me for it. I'd like to think that opinions have shifted since then. Coups benefit from people denying that coups are possible.
It's amazing how Covid-19 has brought out the best and worst in people in so many ways.
A coup isn't possible for all the reasons stated previously. There is zero chance, no chance, none, nada. No one would stand for it, not Biden supporters, not trump supporters, no one in the military, no one in civilian life. The current system has worked pretty well for longer than all of our lifetimes, the average American does pretty well, and yes, there is a very small, very tiny proportion of the population who do, say and believe in ridiculous things. Please don't elevate that stupidity into anything remotely like broad acceptance.
Stupidity is not understanding what a coup is and insisting that it is impossible when many nations have fallen because of them. A coup does not necessarily take the form of militiamen storming capitol buildings and publicly executing politicians. Sometimes it can be people in positions of power using the government system against itself. If you think that the military and the police are going to rush in and save a bunch of people sitting at home watching TV you're wrong. And the current system may have worked "pretty well" for you, but coups don't give a damn what you think.
RE: Threats to public health officials - Mick - 11-22-2020
(11-19-2020, 08:31 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: History disagrees. To take probably the most well known example, Hitler came to power democratically, before assuming total power by the assent of his conservative coalition members. It was all "legal".
The bottom line is there is one party in the US that is either actively participating in, or standing by watching, while their leader attempts to subvert democracy. Anyone with a knowledge of history should be very concerned about the direction the US is going in, near-term and far.
And before someone Godwin Law's me....
I think you mean liberal coalition. Hitler was a lefty.
RE: Threats to public health officials - dabigv13 - 11-22-2020
If you saw, in any other country, the incumbent strongman president lose an election yet claim victory and fraud, fire the Defense minister, while most of his party members support him or say nothing, you would call it a coup.
I think the odds are low it succeeds, but the past 4 years has opened my eyes about how weak our institutions are. This coup will fail only because Trump is too much of a bumbling fool for the supine enablers in his party to bring it over the finish line. A slightly closer election, a slightly smarter authoritarian, and it would be a different story.
How we go on, knowing the Republican party will go full fascist if they could, is a real doozy.
(11-22-2020, 08:33 AM)Mick Wrote:(11-19-2020, 08:31 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: History disagrees. To take probably the most well known example, Hitler came to power democratically, before assuming total power by the assent of his conservative coalition members. It was all "legal".
The bottom line is there is one party in the US that is either actively participating in, or standing by watching, while their leader attempts to subvert democracy. Anyone with a knowledge of history should be very concerned about the direction the US is going in, near-term and far.
And before someone Godwin Law's me....
I think you mean liberal coalition. Hitler was a lefty.
Is this supposed to be a joke? Are you really that brainwashed?
RE: Threats to public health officials - Mick - 11-22-2020
(11-22-2020, 08:40 AM)dabigv13 Wrote: How we go on, knowing the Republican party will go full fascist if they could, is a real doozy.
Interesting. I've always thought that the likelihood of fascism would happen within the Democratic party.
The right consists of free-market capitalists, who think the individual is the primary political unit, believes in property rights, and is generally distrustful of the administrative state and government solutions to social problems. They view family and civil institutions such as church as needed checks on state power. These people don’t think government should force a business to provide employee birth control or think law should coerce bakers to make cakes against their conscience. They think the solution to bad speech is more speech; the solution to gun violence is more guns. These people talk about “freedom” — the method individual decisions.
The left believes the opposite. These people are distrustful of the excesses and inequality capitalism produces. They give primacy to group rights and identity. They believe factors like race, ethnicity, and gender compose the primary political units. They don’t believe in strong property rights. They believe it is the government’s responsibility to solve social problems. They call for public intervention to “equalize” disparities and render our social fabric more inclusive (as they define it). They believe the free market has failed to solve issues like campaign finance, income inequality, minimum wage, access to healthcare, and righting past injustices. These people talk about “democracy” — the method of collective decisions.
By these definitions the Nazis were firmly on the left. National Socialism was a collectivist authoritarian movement run by “social justice warriors.” That this brand of “justice” benefited only some based on immutable characteristics perfectly aligns with the modern brand. The Nazi ideal embraced identity politics based on the primacy of the people or “volk” and invoked state-based solutions for every possible problem. It was nation-based socialism — the nation being especially important to those who bled in the Great War.
RE: Threats to public health officials - dabigv13 - 11-22-2020
Read a book Mick. You should get your facts straight otherwise you look silly.
This is a good one on the subject-
The Coming of the Third Reich, by Richard Evans
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0143034693/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_bIOUFbFE244E8
You seem to be from the school of (convicted felon) Dinesh D'Souza. Good company to keep.
Honestly, there is no point debating if two sides don't both adhere to facts. Believing the Nazis were leftists is so bizarre, absurd, and in bad faith, that there is no way I could convince you of the idiocy of your positions, and no point really trying.
RE: Threats to public health officials - JustAnotherFan - 11-22-2020
(11-22-2020, 08:40 AM)dabigv13 Wrote: If you saw, in any other country, the incumbent strongman president lose an election yet claim victory and fraud, fire the Defense minister, while most of his party members support him or say nothing, you would call it a coup.
I think the odds are low it succeeds, but the past 4 years has opened my eyes about how weak our institutions are. This coup will fail only because Trump is too much of a bumbling fool for the supine enablers in his party to bring it over the finish line. A slightly closer election, a slightly smarter authoritarian, and it would be a different story.
How we go on, knowing the Republican party will go full fascist if they could, is a real doozy.
Bingo, three times. A very low likelihood of the coup succeeding doesn't mean a "zero chance, no chance, none, nada." It is by definition a non-zero probability event. Part of American exceptionalism is not applying the same critical lens to what happens here as they do to what happens in other countries. After all, it's not fascism here, it is just economic nationalism. It isn't wars of aggression here, it is just protecting the homeland. It isn't a police state here, it's just an imperfect attempt at law and order. No biggie.
(11-22-2020, 08:47 AM)Mick Wrote:(11-22-2020, 08:40 AM)dabigv13 Wrote: How we go on, knowing the Republican party will go full fascist if they could, is a real doozy.
Interesting. I've always thought that the likelihood of fascism would happen within the Democratic party.
The right consists of free-market capitalists, who think the individual is the primary political unit, believes in property rights, and is generally distrustful of the administrative state and government solutions to social problems. They view family and civil institutions such as church as needed checks on state power. These people don’t think government should force a business to provide employee birth control or think law should coerce bakers to make cakes against their conscience. They think the solution to bad speech is more speech; the solution to gun violence is more guns. These people talk about “freedom” — the method individual decisions.
The left believes the opposite. These people are distrustful of the excesses and inequality capitalism produces. They give primacy to group rights and identity. They believe factors like race, ethnicity, and gender compose the primary political units. They don’t believe in strong property rights. They believe it is the government’s responsibility to solve social problems. They call for public intervention to “equalize” disparities and render our social fabric more inclusive (as they define it). They believe the free market has failed to solve issues like campaign finance, income inequality, minimum wage, access to healthcare, and righting past injustices. These people talk about “democracy” — the method of collective decisions.
By these definitions the Nazis were firmly on the left. National Socialism was a collectivist authoritarian movement run by “social justice warriors.” That this brand of “justice” benefited only some based on immutable characteristics perfectly aligns with the modern brand. The Nazi ideal embraced identity politics based on the primacy of the people or “volk” and invoked state-based solutions for every possible problem. It was nation-based socialism — the nation being especially important to those who bled in the Great War.
This has to be the dumbest post, yet. Your so-called definitions are a joke. If the Nazis were leftists how do you reconcile that all the Heil Hitler saluting idiots in the streets are participating in the Trump rallies, and physically attacking antifascists? Oh wait, you probably think the antifascists are the real fascists, right?
And this notion that because the political right in this country doesn't believe in socialized medicine (unless it is through the VA or medicaid/medicare) and wants corporations to be free of regulations, that it is somehow the anti-authoritarian alternative to the leftists who do not want cops murdering people in the streets is ... stupid. The right does not consist of free-market capitalists. You can't even find a single free-market capitalist in the Republican party. They all want to use the government to subsidize entire industries (e.g., oil and gas, agriculture) and send in the police to stop impoverished people who dare to operate in grey markets (e.g., selling loosies). The right is okay with the government coercing bakers to let people into their stores without masks, and to coerce coffee shops to serve cops, they just don't want the government to dare be used to recognize the basic humanity of anyone who is not a cis white man.
Just stop, Mick. You have delved deeply into stupidity territory.
RE: Threats to public health officials - Mick - 11-22-2020
(11-22-2020, 08:50 AM)dabigv13 Wrote: Read a book Mick. You should get your facts straight otherwise you look silly.
This is a good one on the subject-
The Coming of the Third Reich, by Richard Evans
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0143034693/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_bIOUFbFE244E8
You seem to be from the school of Dinesh D'Souza. Good company to keep.
Never read Evans and I don't know who he is, but I've read Nobel-prize winner Friedrich Hayek who had a front row seat to the Nazi rise. That will suffice for me.
(11-22-2020, 08:50 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:(11-22-2020, 08:40 AM)dabigv13 Wrote: If you saw, in any other country, the incumbent strongman president lose an election yet claim victory and fraud, fire the Defense minister, while most of his party members support him or say nothing, you would call it a coup.
I think the odds are low it succeeds, but the past 4 years has opened my eyes about how weak our institutions are. This coup will fail only because Trump is too much of a bumbling fool for the supine enablers in his party to bring it over the finish line. A slightly closer election, a slightly smarter authoritarian, and it would be a different story.
How we go on, knowing the Republican party will go full fascist if they could, is a real doozy.
Bingo, three times. A very low likelihood of the coup succeeding doesn't mean a "zero chance, no chance, none, nada." It is by definition a non-zero probability event. Part of American exceptionalism is not applying the same critical lens to what happens here as they do to what happens in other countries. After all, it's not fascism here, it is just economic nationalism. It isn't wars of aggression here, it is just protecting the homeland. It isn't a police state here, it's just an imperfect attempt at law and order. No biggie.
(11-22-2020, 08:47 AM)Mick Wrote:(11-22-2020, 08:40 AM)dabigv13 Wrote: How we go on, knowing the Republican party will go full fascist if they could, is a real doozy.
Interesting. I've always thought that the likelihood of fascism would happen within the Democratic party.
The right consists of free-market capitalists, who think the individual is the primary political unit, believes in property rights, and is generally distrustful of the administrative state and government solutions to social problems. They view family and civil institutions such as church as needed checks on state power. These people don’t think government should force a business to provide employee birth control or think law should coerce bakers to make cakes against their conscience. They think the solution to bad speech is more speech; the solution to gun violence is more guns. These people talk about “freedom” — the method individual decisions.
The left believes the opposite. These people are distrustful of the excesses and inequality capitalism produces. They give primacy to group rights and identity. They believe factors like race, ethnicity, and gender compose the primary political units. They don’t believe in strong property rights. They believe it is the government’s responsibility to solve social problems. They call for public intervention to “equalize” disparities and render our social fabric more inclusive (as they define it). They believe the free market has failed to solve issues like campaign finance, income inequality, minimum wage, access to healthcare, and righting past injustices. These people talk about “democracy” — the method of collective decisions.
By these definitions the Nazis were firmly on the left. National Socialism was a collectivist authoritarian movement run by “social justice warriors.” That this brand of “justice” benefited only some based on immutable characteristics perfectly aligns with the modern brand. The Nazi ideal embraced identity politics based on the primacy of the people or “volk” and invoked state-based solutions for every possible problem. It was nation-based socialism — the nation being especially important to those who bled in the Great War.
This has to be the dumbest post, yet. If the Nazis were leftists how do you reconcile that all the Heil Hitler saluting idiots in the streets are participating in the Trump rallies, and physically attacking antifascists? Oh wait, you probably think the antifascists are the real fascists, right?
Stupidity.
And now I know I'm correct... ;)
RE: Threats to public health officials - dabigv13 - 11-22-2020
There were some "leftist" Nazis early on. The right wingers murdered them during the Night of Long Knives in 34. Again, this is silly to keep arguing because now it is clear you prefer to be ignorant of actual facts but in spite of your trolling I can't let this shit be. Seriously, read an actual history book.
RE: Threats to public health officials - Genuine Realist - 11-22-2020
(11-22-2020, 09:10 AM)dabigv13 Wrote: There were some "leftist" Nazis early on. The right wingers murdered them during the Night of Long Knives in 34. Again, this is silly to keep arguing because now it is clear you prefer to be ignorant of actual facts but in spite of your trolling I can't let this shit be. Seriously, read an actual history book.
(a) Sir Richard J. Evans wrote three good books about German popular life in Germany under the Nazis. I found them very useful doing my own novel.
(b) The best description I've read about World War II (at least in Europe) was that it was a conflict between right-wing (nationalist) and left-wing (Marxist) Hegelians. What both have in common is that they are statist, and at war with traditional Judaeo-Christian ethics and family values. These days we associate statism more with Communists than ultra-nationalists. That has a lot to do with the complete discreditation of Fascism by the outcome of World War II.
(c ) To say that Adolph Hitler had any ideology beyond his own narcissism is somewhat laughable. He said what he had to say to the various elements of German society. In 1929-1932, four years before the publication of Keynes' General Monetary Theory, no government in the Western world knew how to respond to the Depression, and the measures most nations did undertake were dead wrong. The outcome was a massive collapse of world credit. The political result was public panic, particularly in Germany, in which democratic institutions were so lightly rooted that no one had confidence in them. Hitler took full advantage of that, promising all things to all people. To give any ideological spin to this exercise in cynicism is to give him more credit than is due.
Back to covid . . .