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RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - winflop - 03-19-2021

Now up 14 with just over 2 mins left

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - OutsiderFan - 03-19-2021

I get a little torqued when people compare coaching records without context.

Tinkle took over a far less talented and recruiting-able program than Haase did.  Like David Shaw took over Harbaugh's rolling program.

Now look at Kyle Shanahan. His NFL record isn't great now, but he took over arguably the worst roster in the NFL, and has endured two years of injury devastation.  

I picked Oregon State to win this game because I saw a well-coached team in the Pac-12 Championship.  I've been even more impressed with how well coached they are in this Tennessee 70-56 victory. It's easy to tell when a team is well-coached. It's not as easy to tell when it isn't, but there are certainly indicators.

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - PVTree - 03-19-2021

I also had Oregon State winning in my bracket. Of course, I also have the other OSU, from Ohio, going to the final four.

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - Goose - 03-19-2021

(03-19-2021, 03:44 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  It's easy to tell when a team is well-coached. It's not as easy to tell when it isn't, but there are certainly indicators.
It is not clear to me how these statements can be simultaneously true. If teams are either well coached or they are not, and you can always recognize which teams are, isn't it logically required that the ones you can't determine are well coached are not? If you attempt to allow a third state "don't know", then it must not be easy to determine if a team is well coached, since some of the "don't knows" must be well coached for a third state to exist.

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - WBB fan - 03-19-2021

Congrats to Tinkle and the Beavers! I'm so excited for them. Given their win today, I might even begin to watch a bit of the men's tournament, at least OSU's next game. I'm always happy to see the OSU men or women win, except when the play Stanford. Can't get past the fact that I grew up in Corvallis, and my first exposure to college basketball was at Gill, decades ago. Lots of happy memories there. 

BTW, am I right that I was seeing Jos Tinkle there cheering for her dad's Beavers? I'm pretty sure it was her behind that mask.

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - OutsiderFan - 03-19-2021

(03-19-2021, 04:02 PM)Goose Wrote:  
(03-19-2021, 03:44 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  It's easy to tell when a team is well-coached. It's not as easy to tell when it isn't, but there are certainly indicators.
It is not clear to me how these statements can be simultaneously true. If teams are either well coached or they are not, and you can always recognize which teams are, isn't it logically required that the ones you can't determine are well coached are not? If you attempt to allow a third state "don't know", then it must not be easy to determine if a team is well coached, since some of the "don't knows" must be well coached for a third state to exist.

There is a difference between players executing and running sound schemes, sets, and plays.

Oregon State's players knew how to handle the press. They knew how to attack the defenses they faced, move the ball and create open shots for their teammates. They also played solid defense, executing the scheme. That's good coaching. If they were missing shots I would have been able to see they were well coached, but just missing shots. If Tennessee made more shots, Oregon State was still playing sound defense. 

It's not as easy to tell if the players aren't executing a sound scheme, or if the coach doesn't have one and they are not organized, unless you see the team play over and over and see the same problems consistently.

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - AlbanyCardinal - 03-19-2021

Outsider, are you equating Haase following Dawkins to Shaw following Harbaugh? If not, please clarify.

I'm impressed by the Beavers and have picked them to do some damage in the tourney. None of Haase's teams have improved on the season, so I tend to agree with that part of your post. And I understand your point that Stanford is more recruitable than Oregon State, but if you factor in transfers, which are a much bigger deal in hoops than football, I'm not so sure. How many of OSU's current starters are transfers? At least two that I know of. This isn't to defend Haase so much as it is to note a pretty big disadvantage for the Stanford basketball program.

(03-19-2021, 03:44 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  Tinkle took over a far less talented and recruiting-able program than Haase did.  Like David Shaw took over Harbaugh's rolling program.


RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - PVTree - 03-19-2021

(03-19-2021, 04:11 PM)WBB fan Wrote:  BTW, am I right that I was seeing Jos Tinkle there cheering for her dad's Beavers? I'm pretty sure it was her behind that mask.

Yes, it is her. Jos, her siblings, and mother have been present at all the Beaver games since the P12 tourney.

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - OutsiderFan - 03-19-2021

(03-19-2021, 07:19 PM)AlbanyCardinal Wrote:  Outsider, are you equating Haase following Dawkins to Shaw following Harbaugh? If not, please clarify.

Not really. I'm saying some people are pointing to Tinkle's record - after taking over worst program in conference - to take away from his accomplishments this season. If you are going to do that, then you can't credit David Shaw for what he did after taking over Harbaugh's Stanford program.  

Personally, I think Tinkle's record doesn't reflect his ability, like Kyle Shanahan's doesn't. They are both a little too early to judge. Shaw is a little more difficult to assess because his 2015 and 2017 seasons were 5 and 7 years after Harbaugh, and those were upper echelon performances.

Not to go down rabbit hole, but my belief is David Shaw is a great program leader who is too loyal to coaches and not willing to make himself uncomfortable to enable growth.

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - BostonCard - 03-19-2021

(03-19-2021, 08:32 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  
(03-19-2021, 07:19 PM)AlbanyCardinal Wrote:  Outsider, are you equating Haase following Dawkins to Shaw following Harbaugh? If not, please clarify.

Not really. I'm saying some people are pointing to Tinkle's record - after taking over worst program in conference - to take away from his accomplishments this season. If you are going to do that, then you can't credit David Shaw for what he did after taking over Harbaugh's Stanford program.  

Personally, I think Tinkle's record doesn't reflect his ability, like Kyle Shanahan's doesn't. They are both a little too early to judge. Shaw is a little more difficult to assess because his 2015 and 2017 seasons were 5 and 7 years after Harbaugh, and those were upper echelon performances.

Not to go down rabbit hole, but my belief is David Shaw is a great program leader who is too loyal to coaches and not willing to make himself uncomfortable to enable growth.

First, Haase didn’t exactly inherit a ton from Dawkins.  There were some decent players, but he didn’t inherit a NCAA tournament team in waiting, so the comparison is not that off base.

Second, how many years does Shaw have to win before Harbaugh stops getting credit for what he left behind.  It’s been 11 years people, and even after an entire roster turnover from what Harbaugh left, Shaw went to three bowl games in four years (and this year had a winning record but declined a bowl). Is Shaw going to get us to three Rose bowls in five years again?  Probably not. But at this point, it should be clear that he can win without inherited players from Harbaugh.  At some point this trope is over-played.

BC

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - JohnR34231 - 03-19-2021

Here is the Oregon press's take on the victory.
Sounds like it definitely was a family affair.
https://www.oregonlive.com/sports/john_canzano/2021/03/canzano-oregon-state-makes-it-look-easy-in-ncaa-tournament-win-but-we-know-otherwise-dont-we.html

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - terry - 03-20-2021

(03-19-2021, 08:32 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  I'm saying some people are pointing to Tinkle's record - after taking over worst program in conference - to take away from his accomplishments this season. If you are going to do that, then you can't credit David Shaw for what he did after taking over Harbaugh's Stanford program.  

Personally, I think Tinkle's record doesn't reflect his ability, like Kyle Shanahan's doesn't. They are both a little too early to judge. 

OSU finished in the middle of the Pac-12 in the regular season this year, with a conference record of 10-10, tied for 6th with Stanford. OSU is having a good run in the post-season, winning 3 games in the conference tournament and one game in the NCAA tournament.

That's nice for OSU and for Wayne Tinkle. I wish Stanford and Jerod Haase were enjoying that kind of winning streak. 

However, I don't think it's unreasonable to view Tinkle's last four games in the context of his 7 seasons at OSU (record of 52-76 in conference). 

Tinkle did not take over the worst program in the conference. Rather, Tinkle took over a team that had gone 8-10 in conference the prior year. 

Even if we disregard Tinkle's results in his first few years at OSU and look only at years 4 through 7 of his OSU tenure, his records in conference have been just fair-to-middling:  7-11, 10-8, 7-11, 10-10. After 7 seasons, I don't think it's too early to make some judgments based on Tinkle's W/L record.

Maybe OSU's current four-game post-season winning streak shows that OSU has turned the corner. I guess we will see.

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - winflop - 03-20-2021

(03-20-2021, 10:02 AM)terry Wrote:  
(03-19-2021, 08:32 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  I'm saying some people are pointing to Tinkle's record - after taking over worst program in conference - to take away from his accomplishments this season. If you are going to do that, then you can't credit David Shaw for what he did after taking over Harbaugh's Stanford program.  

Personally, I think Tinkle's record doesn't reflect his ability, like Kyle Shanahan's doesn't. They are both a little too early to judge. 

OSU finished in the middle of the Pac-12 in the regular season this year, with a conference record of 10-10, tied for 6th with Stanford. OSU is having a good run in the post-season, winning 3 games in the conference tournament and one game in the NCAA tournament.

That's nice for OSU and for Wayne Tinkle. I wish Stanford and Jerod Haase were enjoying that kind of winning streak. 

However, I don't think it's unreasonable to view Tinkle's last four games in the context of his 7 seasons at OSU (record of 52-76 in conference). 

Tinkle did not take over the worst program in the conference. Rather, Tinkle took over a team that had gone 8-10 in conference the prior year. 

Even if we disregard Tinkle's results in his first few years at OSU and look only at years 4 through 7 of his OSU tenure, his records in conference have been just fair-to-middling:  7-11, 10-8, 7-11, 10-10. After 7 seasons, I don't think it's too early to make some judgments based on Tinkle's W/L record.

Maybe OSU's current four-game post-season winning streak shows that OSU has turned the corner. I guess we will see.

OSU has played it's best basketball of the season in February & March. Stanford played it's best basketball in November & December - three years in a row.

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - 82lsju - 03-20-2021

(03-20-2021, 01:09 PM)winflop Wrote:  
(03-20-2021, 10:02 AM)terry Wrote:  
(03-19-2021, 08:32 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  I'm saying some people are pointing to Tinkle's record - after taking over worst program in conference - to take away from his accomplishments this season. If you are going to do that, then you can't credit David Shaw for what he did after taking over Harbaugh's Stanford program.  

Personally, I think Tinkle's record doesn't reflect his ability, like Kyle Shanahan's doesn't. They are both a little too early to judge. 

OSU finished in the middle of the Pac-12 in the regular season this year, with a conference record of 10-10, tied for 6th with Stanford. OSU is having a good run in the post-season, winning 3 games in the conference tournament and one game in the NCAA tournament.

That's nice for OSU and for Wayne Tinkle. I wish Stanford and Jerod Haase were enjoying that kind of winning streak. 

However, I don't think it's unreasonable to view Tinkle's last four games in the context of his 7 seasons at OSU (record of 52-76 in conference). 

Tinkle did not take over the worst program in the conference. Rather, Tinkle took over a team that had gone 8-10 in conference the prior year. 

Even if we disregard Tinkle's results in his first few years at OSU and look only at years 4 through 7 of his OSU tenure, his records in conference have been just fair-to-middling:  7-11, 10-8, 7-11, 10-10. After 7 seasons, I don't think it's too early to make some judgments based on Tinkle's W/L record.

Maybe OSU's current four-game post-season winning streak shows that OSU has turned the corner. I guess we will see.

OSU has played it's best basketball of the season in February & March. Stanford played it's best basketball in November & December - three years in a row.

or maybe OSU's current run is similar to our last run in the NCAA tournament...a nice local event but not an indicator of great things to come...

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - JohnR34231 - 03-21-2021

The Beavers are keeping it going.

Up by 18 against Oklahoma State late in the second quarter.
Update: Oklahoma State has come back and now it's a close game in the second half.

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - winflop - 03-21-2021

What an awesome win by Oregon State. They played their butts off.

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - CardinalSagehen - 03-21-2021

Clever tweet, especially because it was posted yesterday, before tonight's win. I'm willing to credit Wilner when it is due.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/wilnerhotline/status/1373488562205650951?s=20[/tweet]

Baez87 - Baez87 - 03-21-2021

(03-21-2021, 09:25 PM)winflop Wrote:  What an awesome win by Oregon State. They played their butts off.
Coach Tinkle and his team kept their cool and gutted it out to keep this amazing string going!
Congratulations!

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - JohnR34231 - 03-22-2021

Interesting that after so many years of mediocrity (they have had one winning conference record since 1990) the Beavers seem to have caught fire. It will be interesting to see how long it lasts and if it will carry over to next year.

RE: Good for Wayne Tinkle - needle - 03-22-2021

(03-22-2021, 04:45 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote:  Interesting that after so many years of mediocrity (they have had one winning conference record since 1990) the Beavers seem to have caught fire. It will be interesting to see how long it lasts and if it will carry over to next year.

I guess Oral Roberts getting to the Sweet Sixteen is slightly more improbable, but I don't see any other teams with 12 losses making it to the Sweet Sixteen this year. OSU is a true Cinderella story.