Men's BB: Stanford 79 - ASU 76

Men's BB: Stanford 79 - ASU 76 - Printable Version

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RE: Men's BB: Stanford vs ASU, 8 pm, Saturday, FS1 - TonyLima - 01-22-2022

(01-22-2022, 11:12 PM)magnus Wrote: I watched the last 5 minutes. Keefe is the MVP.

Agree. Clutch performance.

RE: Men's BB: Stanford vs ASU, 8 pm, Saturday, FS1 - teejers1 - 01-22-2022

(01-22-2022, 11:23 PM)TonyLima Wrote:
(01-22-2022, 11:12 PM)magnus Wrote: I watched the last 5 minutes. Keefe is the MVP.

Agree. Clutch performance.

And did Silva solidify his role as the starting PG for Stanford tonight? That's a semi-rhetorical question - I did not see the game but 3 TOs to help fuel an ASU comeback doesn't sound good. I'll have to watch the tape to see who did what.

This team has several flaws, including at PG. But I've never understood the certainty with which many have proclaimed that Silva is the answer at the point. Maybe he will prove to be the best PG for Stanford at some point down the road, but he isn't close to "there" yet.

P.S. Martyup's description of Bobby Hurley's life - one giant injustice - is just so freaking spot on. Never liked that guy. And who knows, he could be a great guy off the hardcourt. But at Duke and on the ASU sideline, he projects as a whiny punk.

RE: Men's BB: Stanford vs ASU, 8 pm, Saturday, FS1 - BostonCard - 01-22-2022

If this had been a good team, I’d be thrilled with a win, but ASU is not a good team, and we almost blew a game in which we led 56-41, and at one point we’re down 65-61, which means we were outscored 24-5. Ugh.

Thankfully we got fouled shooting a three with 1 second left, and made O’Connell made all three for the final margin, but this wouldn’t have been an issue had Ingram not missed both of his free throws (which would have put us up by 4 with 20 seconds left).

A win is a win, but this doesn’t bode well for some of the tougher games left on our schedule.

BC

RE: Men's BB: Stanford vs ASU, 8 pm, Saturday, FS1 - magnus - 01-22-2022

The free throw attempt disparity was brobdingnagian between the two teams. Was ASU playing that much more dirty?

RE: Men's BB: Stanford vs ASU, 8 pm, Saturday, FS1 - old spanish trail - 01-23-2022

(01-22-2022, 11:49 PM)BostonCard Wrote: If this had been a good team, I’d be thrilled with a win, but ASU is not a good team, and we almost blew a game in which we led 56-41, and at one point we’re down 65-61, which means we were outscored 24-5. Ugh.

Thankfully we got fouled shooting a three with 1 second left, and made O’Connell made all three for the final margin, but this wouldn’t have been an issue had Ingram not missed both of his free throws (which would have put us up by 4 with 20 seconds left).

A win is a win, but this doesn’t bode well for some of the tougher games left on our schedule.

BC

I think it was Angel making the free throws at the end. He is one of our top perimeter shooters, and is developing into a nice offensive piece.

(01-22-2022, 11:51 PM)magnus Wrote: The free throw attempt disparity was of immense proportions between the two teams. Was ASU playing that much more dirty?

Ask Bobby Hurley. Problem for ASU is they committed some fouls early in the second half and thus we were at the line for a long time.

RE: Men's BB: Stanford vs ASU, 8 pm, Saturday, FS1 - M T - 01-23-2022

(01-22-2022, 11:15 PM)martyup Wrote: BTW, Hurley walked off the court jawing at the refs and one of his players had to be restrained from attacking the ref. He never even shook hands with Hasse.

Probably it was good that they didn't shake hands. Not a single player or coach for ASU even had a mask (at least when they scanned the bench late in the game). I believe the state of California is still under a restriction to wear masks.

I anticipate that the PAC-12 will censure the coach. Unfortunately, his actions were picked up by his players. I believe I saw two players, as well as the coach, confronting the refs after the game. (This is very different than the post-game comments by the Arizona WBB coach.)

I didn't see but the last bit of the first half. ASU had 1 FTA and 12 fouls while Stanford had 17 FTA and 6 fouls in the first half.

The coach got a technical 30 seconds into the 2nd half. I sure didn't see anything on the floor worth a technical; neither did the announcers. 1:44 later, ASU's top scorer got a foul, and then was charged with a technical. The camera wasn't on him, so I couldn't see what transpired. That technical was his 4th personal foul. His team sent him off the court for a while, presumably to calm down. He didn't go back into the game until 10:00.

27 seconds later, the refs called a technical on Delaire. Again, I couldn't see what happened. (Sure, it could have been taunting, but I can't know that.)

ASU was down 11 at that point. Stanford stretched the lead to 15 at 15:16. ASU played very aggressive defense over the next 10 minutes. Over 6 minutes or so, Stanford had 6 turnovers and 1 missed shot.

In the 2nd half, ASU had 17 fouls and had 8 FTA. Stanford had 10 fouls and 24 FTA. (Total 9 FTA vs 41 FTA) In the last 1:01, ASU had 3 fouls giving Stanford 7 FTA. At the end of the game, ASU had two players with 5 fouls and 4 with 4 fouls. With the kind of aggressive defense ASU played in the 2nd half, clearly they can expect to have more fouls than their opponent.

I don't watch MBB that much, but did someone say MBB had good refs? I saw a lot of questionable calls & missed calls (fouls, travels, a defensive goal tending & possible offensive goal tending). Obviously, the hand contact rules must be different than WBB because the defenders were allowed to rat-ta-tat the dribbler or just keep constant contact.

Interestingly, one can't say that the home crowd influenced the refereeing. The box score puts the attendance at 100.

I would urge Stanford to appoint at least 2 of their stadium security (or police/deputies) to walk officials off the court. I take it as a failure of the host Stanford to avoid the confrontation after the game. Unfortunately the refs leave past the benches, while the visiting team crosses the court.

RE: Men's BB: Stanford vs ASU, 8 pm, Saturday, FS1 - needle - 01-23-2022

Feel like this week went about as most of us would have predicted.

I trust the team to flush away the negatives.

Much tougher for me to guess if Stanford can pull off a sweep of USC, but I think they can do it.

RE: Men's BB: Stanford vs ASU, 8 pm, Saturday, FS1 - burger - 01-23-2022

(01-22-2022, 11:31 PM)teejers1 Wrote: And did Silva solidify his role as the starting PG for Stanford tonight? That's a semi-rhetorical question - I did not see the game but 3 TOs to help fuel an ASU comeback doesn't sound good. I'll have to watch the tape to see who did what.

This team has several flaws, including at PG. But I've never understood the certainty with which many have proclaimed that Silva is the answer at the point. Maybe he will prove to be the best PG for Stanford at some point down the road, but he isn't close to "there" yet.

Silva's three turnovers were pretty bad. One was a very weak pass right to an ASU player. Another was on a double-team where he was trapped in the corner. He has trouble with pressure defense, and I don't think that Haase trusts him yet.

That said, I'd love to see him play some SG. He's a great shooter (9-18 on 3's this year), and he can drive. Let him get some time on the court with less pressure. Will Haase actually do this thing that would be good for the team? Probably not.

RE: Men's BB: Stanford vs ASU, 8 pm, Saturday, FS1 - slide - 01-23-2022

(01-23-2022, 08:19 AM)burger Wrote:
(01-22-2022, 11:31 PM)teejers1 Wrote: And did Silva solidify his role as the starting PG for Stanford tonight? That's a semi-rhetorical question - I did n
ot see the game but 3 TOs to help fuel an ASU comeback doesn't sound good. I'll have to watch the tape to see who did what.
This team has several flaws, including at PG. But I've never understood the certainty with which many have proclaimed that Silva is the answer at the point. Maybe he will prove to be the best PG for Stanford at some point down the road, but he isn't close to "there" yet.

Silva's three turnovers were pretty bad. One was a very weak pass right to an ASU player. Another was on a double-team where he was trapped in the corner. He has trouble with pressure defense, and I don't think that Haase trusts him yet.

That said, I'd love to see him play some SG. He's a great shooter (9-18 on 3's this year), and he can drive. Let him get some time on the court with less pressure. Will Haase actually do this thing that would be good for the team? Probably not.

I wonder why Haase has not paired Silva with MOC plus Ingram when other teams go to full court pressure. we've struggled with such pressure and having both PGs on court at same time might help.

RE: Men's BB: Stanford vs ASU, 8 pm, Saturday, FS1 - bl82 - 01-23-2022

(01-23-2022, 09:47 AM)slide Wrote:
(01-23-2022, 08:19 AM)burger Wrote:
(01-22-2022, 11:31 PM)teejers1 Wrote: And did Silva solidify his role as the starting PG for Stanford tonight? That's a semi-rhetorical question - I did n
ot see the game but 3 TOs to help fuel an ASU comeback doesn't sound good. I'll have to watch the tape to see who did what.
This team has several flaws, including at PG. But I've never understood the certainty with which many have proclaimed that Silva is the answer at the point. Maybe he will prove to be the best PG for Stanford at some point down the road, but he isn't close to "there" yet.

Silva's three turnovers were pretty bad. One was a very weak pass right to an ASU player. Another was on a double-team where he was trapped in the corner. He has trouble with pressure defense, and I don't think that Haase trusts him yet.

That said, I'd love to see him play some SG. He's a great shooter (9-18 on 3's this year), and he can drive. Let him get some time on the court with less pressure. Will Haase actually do this thing that would be good for the team? Probably not.

I wonder why Haase has not paired Silva with MOC plus Ingram when other teams go to full court pressure. we've struggled with such pressure and having both PGs on court at same time might help.

I’ve had the same thought. Haase seems happy with a 1G-4F offense, but when pressure is a problem, we need better dribblers and passers. We need better guard play, more solid ball handlers or both.

RE: Men's BB: Stanford 79 - ASU 76 - martyup - 01-23-2022

At the beginning of the 2nd half Stanford brought the ball in and set up our half court offense. We missed a shot and ASU got the rebound. There was nothing significant going on on the court during that possession. However, as ASU started bringing the ball back up the court, Bobby Hurley was yelling at the ref on the far side of court, Jim Skipper. Skipper called the technical foul and Bobby went ballistic. Another ref had to jump between Hurley and Skipper. This must have been a beef carried forward from the 1st half, and it seemed to be directed at specifically at Skipper.

Two possessions later ASU's best player, Horne, was called for a foul by Skipper when he grabbed Jones' shirt trying to impede his progress. Horne didn't like the call and started jawing at the ref and his players pulled him away and tried to calm him down. On that possession, Horne kept jawing at Skipper and was T'ed up. Horne went ballistic and had to be restrained from approaching Skipper by his teammates. Hurley took this occasion to further his tirade against Skipper and started gesticulating and yelling "What did he do?"

On our next possession, Delaire sunk a 3 and turned his head and said something to the player that was guarding him. He quickly turned away and started back up the court when a different ref called a technical on Delaire, presumably for taunting. Whatever Delaire said, it was probably just bad timing. He didn't make physical taunting moves and quickly moved away from the other player. However, there was so much tension on the court that the refs were on edge. It was a bad move by Delaire, but probably was no worse than what players do and say all the time. Hasse handled it well and didn't complain about the call.

ASU was called for a lot of fouls because the were fouling a lot. I would say that they got away with more fouls than were called.

MOC was just as crucial to this win in the final minutes as Keefe. He made some great dribble drive buckets down the stretch.

I just don't understand why the refs allow Hurley to stand on the court. He doesn't even step back off the court when the action is happening right in front of him. The refs have to actually maneuver around him when they are running up the sideline to follow the play.

RE: Men's BB: Stanford vs ASU, 8 pm, Saturday, FS1 - winflop - 01-23-2022

(01-23-2022, 10:17 AM)bl82 Wrote: when pressure is a problem, we need better dribblers and passers. We need better guard play, more solid ball handlers or both.

This pretty much encapsulates the entire Haase era. While I still hope this team makes the big dance, I'm not optimistic and absent that I think Haase needs to go

RE: Men's BB: Stanford 79 - ASU 76 - TriangleTree - 01-23-2022

(01-23-2022, 10:18 AM)martyup Wrote: At the beginning of the 2nd half Stanford brought the ball in and set up our half court offense. We missed a shot and ASU got the rebound. There was nothing significant going on on the court during that possession. However, as ASU started bringing the ball back up the court, Bobby Hurley was yelling at the ref on the far side of court, Jim Skipper. Skipper called the technical foul and Bobby went ballistic. Another ref had to jump between Hurley and Skipper. This must have been a beef carried forward from the 1st half, and it seemed to be directed at specifically at Skipper.

Two possessions later ASU's best player, Horne, was called for a foul by Skipper when he grabbed Jones' shirt trying to impede his progress. Horne didn't like the call and started jawing at the ref and his players pulled him away and tried to calm him down. On that possession, Horne kept jawing at Skipper and was T'ed up. Horne went ballistic and had to be restrained from approaching Skipper by his teammates. Hurley took this occasion to further his tirade against Skipper and started gesticulating and yelling "What did he do?"

On our next possession, Delaire sunk a 3 and turned his head and said something to the player that was guarding him. He quickly turned away and started back up the court when a different ref called a technical on Delaire, presumably for taunting. Whatever Delaire said, it was probably just bad timing. He didn't make physical taunting moves and quickly moved away from the other player. However, there was so much tension on the court that the refs were on edge. It was a bad move by Delaire, but probably was no worse than what players do and say all the time. Hasse handled it well and didn't complain about the call.

ASU was called for a lot of fouls because the were fouling a lot. I would say that they got away with more fouls than were called.

MOC was just as crucial to this win in the final minutes as Keefe. He made some great dribble drive buckets down the stretch.

I just don't understand why the refs allow Hurley to stand on the court. He doesn't even step back off the court when the action is happening right in front of him. The refs have to actually maneuver around him when they are running up the sideline to follow the play.

Agree 100%

I watched the whole game and it was evenly called. I also didn’t like a lot of the fouls they called on us but our kids just turned around and went the other way. Same thing with the technical and how they were handled so differently by coach and player.

The most ridiculous one was the last foul on Angel that won it for us. The ASU defender screwed up and landed on him, it wasn’t even close, he rammed him over after the shot went off. Player started complaining that he had gone straight up, not even remotely close to what actually happened. Hurley also lost it pretending that it was a bad call.

He the. goes off the court without even acknowledging Haase or our team as he barks to the refs. Lack of sportsmanship reminiscent of his namesake from Indiana in the 80s.

Say want you want about Haase, he would never embarras himself or our team this way.

RE: Men's BB: Stanford 79 - ASU 76 - JJJ - 01-23-2022

Someone else said this in another game's thread, but Ingram bringing the ball up looks like a good idea for the half court offense. Not sure if he should be paired with MOC or Silva or someone else but he can do it all. Raynaud also needs to get more minutes. We are currently equally capable of playing up to and down to the level of the competition.

RE: Men's BB: Stanford 79 - ASU 76 - bl82 - 01-23-2022

One interesting thing about the foul on the last shot is that earlier in the game, Angel took a three pointer from out on top and he was grazed after the shot, fell and received a flopping warning. The shots looked almost identical (but from different places on the floor) and Angel held an extended follow-through pose on both occasions. He got nicked and fell both times and perhaps nicked slightly less the first time, but as I see it, either they were both fouls or both flops. I could totally see the reds swallowing their whistles on the last call…BUT ASU was super aggressive the whole game and even with all the fouls called against them, I’m sure there could have been more fouls called that were appropriate.

Finally, perhaps, the refs were just tired of Hurley’s antics. Most of us have been tired of his crap since the first game he coached against us, some 6-7 years ago.

RE: Men's BB: Stanford 79 - ASU 76 - chrisk - 01-23-2022

2 pointers : Stanford 10-31, ASU 24-34
FT: Stanford 32-41, ASU 7-9

The 3-point shooting swung it in Stanford’s favor, 9-19 vs 7-25

RE: Men's BB: Stanford 79 - ASU 76 - M T - 01-23-2022

(01-23-2022, 01:18 PM)bl82 Wrote: One interesting thing about the foul on the last shot is that earlier in the game, Angel took a three pointer from out on top and he was grazed after the shot, fell and received a flopping warning. The shots looked almost identical (but from different places on the floor) and Angel held an extended follow-through pose on both occasions. He got nicked and fell both times and perhaps nicked slightly less the first time, but as I see it, either they were both fouls or both flops. I could totally see the reds swallowing their whistles on the last call…BUT ASU was super aggressive the whole game and even with all the fouls called against them, I’m sure there could have been more fouls called that were appropriate.

That's not how I saw it. On the one that was called a flop, the ASU player's shoulder hit the shooter's shoulder after the shot, and the player went down. Had he spun, it could certainly be called a foul. But when he went down, the ref called it a flop.

On the shot with 1.1 seconds, the ASU player's torso hit the Stanford player in the torso. The ASU player's right leg went between the legs of the Stanford player; the Stanford player's right leg was between the legs of the ASU player. The ASU player's body went 50% through the space that was occupied by the Stanford player, and took both of them out of bounds. That should be easily called any time in any game.

RE: Men's BB: Stanford 79 - ASU 76 - burger - 01-23-2022

Between the UW, Arizona, and ASU games, opponents have clearly figured out how to defend us: be super physical, double team whenever possible, and force turnovers. That worked really well for the first two of those opponents and was nearly successful for ASU.

We are going to be seeing this every game now. Haase will need an answer. I'm skeptical that he's up to the challenge.

RE: Men's BB: Stanford 79 - ASU 76 - Spiny_Norman - 01-23-2022

(01-23-2022, 12:24 PM)TriangleTree Wrote: The most ridiculous one was the last foul on Angel that won it for us. The ASU defender screwed up and landed on him, it wasn’t even close, he rammed him over after the shot went off.

If the ASU player fouled Angel after he had shot the ball, why did the officials consider it a shooting foul? I was expecting Angel to get 2 FTs, not 3.

In Stanford's offense, the center (usually Keefe or Kisunas) takes a pass at the top of the perimeter and then immediately looks to pass to someone else. To what end? It seems like a useless step. ASU got several turnovers by jumping the pass that they knew was coming or by overplaying the Stanford players trying to receive the pass so that Keefe had nowhere to go. ASU either forced a bad pass for a turnover or got a 5 second call.

It was also painful watching Silva pick up his dribble on the wing and immediately get double teamed leading to a turnover. That was certainly one of the goals of ASU's defensive pressure - get the opponent to pick up their dribble in a vulnerable place on the court, then trap like a maniac. I saw Colorado's women's team apply the same pressure to Stanford.

RE: Men's BB: Stanford 79 - ASU 76 - TriangleTree - 01-23-2022

(01-23-2022, 07:04 PM)Spiny_Norman Wrote:
(01-23-2022, 12:24 PM)TriangleTree Wrote: The most ridiculous one was the last foul on Angel that won it for us. The ASU defender screwed up and landed on him, it wasn’t even close, he rammed him over after the shot went off.

If the ASU player fouled Angel after he had shot the ball, why did the officials consider it a shooting foul? I was expecting Angel to get 2 FTs, not 3.

I don’t know the official rule, but if the full motion is impeded including follow through and landing, I’ve always seen it called as a shooting foul.
We’ve had more than our share of these going against us over the years.