Outside Topic Mahomes vs Allen

Outside Topic Mahomes vs Allen - Printable Version

+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Outside Topic Mahomes vs Allen (/thread-22886.html)

Pages: 1 2 3

RE: OT. Mahomes vs Allen - Phogge - 01-24-2022

Kittle is the best all around TE but Kelce runs better routes.

RE: OT. Mahomes vs Allen - lex24 - 01-24-2022

(01-24-2022, 08:49 AM)Phogge Wrote: Kittle is the best all around TE but Kelce runs better routes.

Heck, Phogge, we could have run that route. They laid off him, gave him the release and the inside. Unreal.

RE: OT. Mahomes vs Allen - OutsiderFan - 01-24-2022

Does anyone know the NFL rules re: kickoffs and taking knees vis-a-vis clock?

Squib kick seemed to be the obvious choice for Bills, but what if the ball was picked up by a Chief and he took a knee right away? Would that have stopped the clock, or would the returner have to be touched by kicking team or get out of bounds, to stop the clock?

If the kicking team has to touch the ball carrier to end the play and stop the clock or receiving team has to go out of bounds to do so, then squib is the only choice with 13 secs left. But if a returner of the kick can take a knee after picking it up and be considered down, it would not take more than 1 sec off clock to do this, so kicking deep would therefore make sense.

I don't know the answer to this question. Does anyone here?

RE: OT. Mahomes vs Allen - ca245 - 01-24-2022

(01-24-2022, 09:56 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Does anyone know the NFL rules re: kickoffs and taking knees vis-a-vis clock?

Squib kick seemed to be the obvious choice for Bills, but what if the ball was picked up by a Chief and he took a knee right away? Would that have stopped the clock, or would the returner have to be touched by kicking team or get out of bounds, to stop the clock?

If the kicking team has to touch the ball carrier to end the play and stop the clock or receiving team has to go out of bounds to do so, then squib is the only choice with 13 secs left. But if a returner of the kick can take a knee after picking it up and be considered down, it would not take more than 1 sec off clock to do this, so kicking deep would therefore make sense.

I don't know the answer to this question. Does anyone here?

Don’t know the actual rule, but I think a returner can “give himself up” by taking a knee to stop the clock. If he must be touched, it would lead to the weird situation where the kicking team players could surround the returner but refrain from touching him, keeping the clock running.

RE: OT. Mahomes vs Allen - Phogge - 01-24-2022

Geez Lex do you think I’m stupid. To s p e l l it out I’m talking about the body of work. Great routes make him open, often. It’s my actual job to look at digital media to prepare for the game I shoot that week. I’m shooting top EZ at the SB so I will study the media from both title games. Hope KC makes it because they have so many weapons to make it an interesting game.

RE: lex24 - CompSci87 - 01-24-2022

(01-24-2022, 08:08 AM)lex24 Wrote:
(01-23-2022, 11:57 PM)CompSci87 Wrote: You can fair catch a kickoff in the NFL, but you get possession at the spot of the catch. The NFL didn't adopt the fairly recent college rule change that makes a kickoff fair catch inside the 25 a touchback. That was the question.

I don’t think you can fair catch a squib kick. Anymore than you could fair catch an on side kick. You certainly can grab it and stay down , giving yourself up.

Of course a successful fair catch requires catching the kick before it hits the ground. So a typical squib or attempted onside kick won't be fair catchable because the kicker tries to make it bounce off the ground right away.

RE: lex24 - teejers1 - 01-24-2022

(01-24-2022, 10:53 AM)CompSci87 Wrote:
(01-24-2022, 08:08 AM)lex24 Wrote:
(01-23-2022, 11:57 PM)CompSci87 Wrote: You can fair catch a kickoff in the NFL, but you get possession at the spot of the catch. The NFL didn't adopt the fairly recent college rule change that makes a kickoff fair catch inside the 25 a touchback. That was the question.

I don’t think you can fair catch a squib kick. Anymore than you could fair catch an on side kick. You certainly can grab it and stay down , giving yourself up.

Of course a successful fair catch requires catching the kick before it hits the ground. So a typical squib or attempted onside kick won't be fair catchable because the kicker tries to make it bounce off the ground right away.

You may be right on kickoffs.

But I'm pretty sure on a punt, the returner can signal for a fair catch, and then catch it after one bounce. Down right there. Clock stopped. I just assumed the same could apply to kickoffs, though Lex's point about onsides kicks is a good one.

RE: OT. Mahomes vs Allen - Papa John - 01-24-2022

I'm a lifetime KC fan, so apologies to the Bills-Allen supporters, but that was the most amazing two minutes of playoff football that I've ever seen. Both defenses were gassed/outmanned, which I expected from KC but not Buffalo. I thought that Hill might get a taunting penalty as he was scoring on that long TD pass with under a minute to go. Actually, that might have worked in the Chiefs favor, because they would have had the ball around the 20 with all three timeouts, so they would have been able to hold onto the ball until time ran out. And short of a TO, Buffalo's defense was not going to be able to stop them.

When I was growing up the Chiefs had Len Dawson at QB, Mike Garrett then Ed Podolak at RB, Otis Taylor at WR and Hank Stram as coach, of course. But even with the win over Joe Kapp and the Vikings in Super Bowl IV (one of my earliest sports memories), the Mahomes era is other worldly.

My wife and her side of the family are northern California/Niners fans, so we're excited about the possibility of a Super Bowl rematch.

RE: lex24 - DC 86 - 01-24-2022

(01-24-2022, 12:39 PM)teejers1 Wrote:
(01-24-2022, 10:53 AM)CompSci87 Wrote:
(01-24-2022, 08:08 AM)lex24 Wrote:
(01-23-2022, 11:57 PM)CompSci87 Wrote: You can fair catch a kickoff in the NFL, but you get possession at the spot of the catch. The NFL didn't adopt the fairly recent college rule change that makes a kickoff fair catch inside the 25 a touchback. That was the question.

I don’t think you can fair catch a squib kick. Anymore than you could fair catch an on side kick. You certainly can grab it and stay down , giving yourself up.

Of course a successful fair catch requires catching the kick before it hits the ground. So a typical squib or attempted onside kick won't be fair catchable because the kicker tries to make it bounce off the ground right away.

You may be right on kickoffs.

But I'm pretty sure on a punt, the returner can signal for a fair catch, and then catch it after one bounce. Down right there. Clock stopped. I just assumed the same could apply to kickoffs, though Lex's point about onsides kicks is a good one.

I don't think it's complicated. Any time a player has possession of the ball he can take a knee to end the play. On a change of possession the clock stops so taking a knee on a kickoff return or punt return stops the clock. You can't fair catch a ball that's hit the ground.

The thing about the squib is that unless it bounces straight at a player and is caught cleanly it's going to take a good amount of time off the clock. A good kicker (and NFL kickers practice this) aims for an unmanned area and hits it low with topspin so that it bounces more than once and is sometimes hard to catch cleanly because of how the ball reacts unpredictably off the ground. Definitely would have been the right play last night.

Also, the clock stops when the referee calls for it to stop, so even that additional second (or two?) after a player takes a knee could have made a difference last night. That's assuming that whoever comes up with it actually takes a knee immediately instead of instinctively trying to return it.

(01-24-2022, 12:39 PM)teejers1 Wrote: But I'm pretty sure on a punt, the returner can signal for a fair catch, and then catch it after one bounce. Down right there. Clock stopped. I just assumed the same could apply to kickoffs, though Lex's point about onsides kicks is a good one.

The best way to explain this is to say that once a punt or kickoff hits the ground the fair catch rules don't apply any more. In the case of a punt the covering team can down the ball, but they can't recover it since you can only recover a muff or fumbled punt. However, on a kickoff the coverage team can recover a loose ball just like on an onside kick. You can call for a fair catch on a kickoff but once the ball hits the ground it's no different from any other kickoff, the fair catch has been voided and the ball can be recovered by either team.

But the overriding point is that in either case if the return team catches the ball after a bounce the play is automatically blown dead since you can't attempt to advance after calling for a fair catch (it's a penalty to try to do so), however the return team has no fair catch protection after the ball hits the ground so the covering team is entitled to try to get the ball, meaning that a scramble for the ball may take significant time off the clock if the return team doesn't immediately gain clean possession following the ball hitting the ground.

RE: lex24 - teejers1 - 01-24-2022

(01-24-2022, 01:13 PM)DC 86 Wrote:
(01-24-2022, 12:39 PM)teejers1 Wrote:
(01-24-2022, 10:53 AM)CompSci87 Wrote:
(01-24-2022, 08:08 AM)lex24 Wrote:
(01-23-2022, 11:57 PM)CompSci87 Wrote: You can fair catch a kickoff in the NFL, but you get possession at the spot of the catch. The NFL didn't adopt the fairly recent college rule change that makes a kickoff fair catch inside the 25 a touchback. That was the question.

I don’t think you can fair catch a squib kick. Anymore than you could fair catch an on side kick. You certainly can grab it and stay down , giving yourself up.

Of course a successful fair catch requires catching the kick before it hits the ground. So a typical squib or attempted onside kick won't be fair catchable because the kicker tries to make it bounce off the ground right away.

You may be right on kickoffs.

But I'm pretty sure on a punt, the returner can signal for a fair catch, and then catch it after one bounce. Down right there. Clock stopped. I just assumed the same could apply to kickoffs, though Lex's point about onsides kicks is a good one.

I don't think it's complicated. Any time a player has possession of the ball he can take a knee to end the play. On a change of possession the clock stops so taking a knee on a kickoff return or punt return stops the clock. You can't fair catch a ball that's hit the ground.

The thing about the squib is that unless it bounces straight at a player and is caught cleanly it's going to take a good amount of time off the clock. A good kicker (and NFL kickers practice this) aims for an unmanned area and hits it low with topspin so that it bounces more than once and is sometimes hard to catch cleanly because of how the ball reacts unpredictably off the ground. Definitely would have been the right play last night.

Also, the clock stops when the referee calls for it to stop, so even that additional second (or two?) after a player takes a knee could have made a difference last night. That's assuming that whoever comes up with it actually takes a knee immediately instead of instinctively trying to return it.

(01-24-2022, 12:39 PM)teejers1 Wrote: But I'm pretty sure on a punt, the returner can signal for a fair catch, and then catch it after one bounce. Down right there. Clock stopped. I just assumed the same could apply to kickoffs, though Lex's point about onsides kicks is a good one.

The best way to explain this is to say that once a punt or kickoff hits the ground the fair catch rules don't apply any more. In the case of a punt the covering team can down the ball, but they can't recover it since you can only recover a muff or fumbled punt. However, on a kickoff the coverage team can recover a bouncing ball just like on an onside kick. You can call for a fair catch on a kickoff but once the ball hits the ground it's no different from any other kickoff, the fair catch has been voided and the ball can be recovered by either team. But the overriding point is that in either case if the return team catches the ball after a bounce the play is automatically blown dead since you can't attempt to advance after calling for a fair catch, however the return team has no fair catch protection after the ball hits the ground, so the scramble for the ball may take significant time off the clock.

Yes, that's better stated. Thanks for clarity.

But still, return team calls "fair catch" as soon as ball is kicked. Thus, even in a squib kick (as opposed to onsides kick - we know that wouldn't have been tried), the ball is dead as soon as the receiving team fields it - after one, two, or ten bounces. And the clock will tick off maybe one second. It's true that the kicking team may go after the ball after it bounces, but in last night's scenario where the ball is kicked hard on a line - at least 30 yards downfield - the kicking team is unlikely to get to the ball anywhere nearly as quickly as the receiving team, barring crazy bounces and the receiving team's inability to field cleanly.

RE: lex24 - magnus - 01-24-2022

(01-24-2022, 01:13 PM)DC 86 Wrote: The thing about the squib is that unless it bounces straight at a player and is caught cleanly it's going to take a good amount of time off the clock.

Does the clock start once the ball is kicked or once the ball is touched _after_ the kick? Just wondering why it matters about the "bounces straight at a player" qualification.

Thanks

RE: OT. Mahomes vs Allen - Phogge - 01-24-2022

Clock starts when the player touches the ball.

RE: OT. Mahomes vs Allen - OutsiderFan - 01-24-2022

OK, given that taking a knee is the player giving himself up (likely need for safety reasons), it's conceivable a squib kick could be caught at like the 35 yard line with a second going off the clock as returner kneels.

That wouldn't be any better than a touchback and ball at 25.

But the thing is the idea is to make the ball bounce and be difficult to catch or pickup cleanly. It's possible someone could go to grab ball, not catch it, and struggle to pick it up, especially with onrushing kick coverage trying to get the ball. That would use up 3 seconds at least, likely more, and there is also chance of kicking team recovering the ball.

I think the Bills underestimated the significance of KC having 3 timeouts with 13 seconds in case of touchback. The best decision was a squib kick because it was the only scenario that could take time off the clock, and the only one that allowed Bills to potentially come up with the ball. The worst case scenario of ball being grabbed cleanly and being kneeled around the KC 35 or 40 was not that likely.

Still, the defense the Bills played was really foolish. Think of what happens if they rush 2 and drop 9 in coverage. No way Mahomes could find the open receiver and deliver the ball without taking 3 a few seconds just to decide where to throw it. And, the receivers would have been tackled a lot faster and gained a lot fewer yards too. Instead, they rushed 4, dropped 7, and played them 15 yards off the LOS.

It was shades of what the Niners did against Cowboys last week, only they led by 6 and boys had no timeouts. I don't like yielding a lot of yards that easily. Niners and Bills both did. Didn't cost the Niners, but sure did the Bills.

RE: Mahomes vs Allen - Blue Hawk (Mizzou) Card - 01-24-2022

To pile on a bit about the Bills coaching: During the first half and the start of the second, I was texting my sons "The Bills have the strongest arm in the history of the planet in their huddle. They should use it." Almost nothing but short passes and runs, with a couple of medium length passes, before the long one to Davis in the third quarter. Yes, they probably got a bit of help on the long one to Davis by sucking the defense up by all that dinking snd dunking. Sort of. He wasn't that open. But they had a howitzer that they kept wrapped up in the garage until it was a two possession game. Big mistake, imo.

Bills coaching has created a winner out of a mess. And they traded up to get Allen. So they a running an admirable "program." But whoever makes game day decisions does a bad job. [That should sound familiar.] Their defense, btw, puts up impressive stats against poor offenses, but is not very stout against good offenses. And I love Harrison Phillips.

There is one possibility I had not considered until my wife told me she heard some talking head mention it: Maybe the Bills coach did decide to squib kick, but the kicker didn't get the message? Of course, that would suggest other problems.

If you want to know the difference between two great QBs: Look at the long td passes last night. Mahomes leads Hill perfectly over the middle and he busts it. Allen throws a very deep ball with very little arc, right on the money, to Davis. Both signature throws.

p.s. Yes, I do realize it is sacrilege to suggest someone has a stronger arm than Elway. Nobody is a bigger Elway fan than me. I was on the Farm in the Elway years and was sure I'd never see anyone with a stronger arm. But I think I have. If not, it's mighty close, and the third place finisher is a ways behind.

RE: Mahomes vs Allen - teejers1 - 01-24-2022

(01-24-2022, 03:42 PM)Blue Hawk (Mizzou) Card Wrote: To pile on a bit about the Bills coaching: During the first half and the start of the second, I was texting my sons "The Bills have the strongest arm in the history of the planet in their huddle. They should use it." Almost nothing but short passes and runs, with a couple of medium length passes, before the long one to Davis in the third quarter. Yes, they probably got a bit of help on the long one to Davis by sucking the defense up by all that dinking snd dunking. Sort of. He wasn't that open. But they had a howitzer that they kept wrapped up in the garage until it was a two possession game. Big mistake, imo.

Bills coaching has created a winner out of a mess. And they traded up to get Allen. So they a running an admirable "program." But whoever makes game day decisions does a bad job. [That should sound familiar.] Their defense, btw, puts up impressive stats against poor offenses, but is not very stout against good offenses. And I love Harrison Phillips.

There is one possibility I had not considered until my wife told me she heard some talking head mention it: Maybe the Bills coach did decide to squib kick, but the kicker didn't get the message? Of course, that would suggest other problems.

If you want to know the difference between two great QBs: Look at the long td passes last night. Mahomes leads Hill perfectly over the middle and he busts it. Allen throws a very deep ball with very little arc, right on the money, to Davis. Both signature throws.

p.s. Yes, I do realize it is sacrilege to suggest someone has a stronger arm than Elway. Nobody is a bigger Elway fan than me. I was on the Farm in the Elway years and was sure I'd never see anyone with a stronger arm. But I think I have. If not, it's mighty close, and the third place finisher is a ways behind.

Talk about a guy who will barely merit footnote/trivia status as a result of the final score last night (and play of the QBs): Bills' WR Gabriel Davis. My goodness, what a game for the ages for that young man. And yet, few will remember it or him in a year or two.

RE: Mahomes vs Allen - Phogge - 01-24-2022

Arms. Allen no doubt has one but I doubt if he had the MPH that Elway did. Long passes? Stafford throws an accurate rainbow, Mahomes and Rodgers can flick it 70 yards on the money. None of them however threw a prettier deep ball than pre-getting his brains beat out Jim Plunkett.

RE: Mahomes vs Allen - DC 86 - 01-24-2022

(01-24-2022, 03:42 PM)Blue Hawk (Mizzou) Card Wrote: There is one possibility I had not considered until my wife told me she heard some talking head mention it: Maybe the Bills coach did decide to squib kick, but the kicker didn't get the message? Of course, that would suggest other problems.

It seems that that is what McDermott was insinuating at his press conference. As all coaches do he alluded to "execution" as the problem.

RE: Mahomes vs Allen - Blue Hawk (Mizzou) Card - 01-24-2022

(01-24-2022, 04:53 PM)Phogge Wrote: Arms. Allen no doubt has one but I doubt if he had the MPH that Elway did. Long passes? Stafford throws an accurate rainbow, Mahomes and Rodgers can flick it 70 yards on the money. None of them however threw a prettier deep ball than pre-getting his brains beat out Jim Plunkett.

I do realize it seems impossible, and maybe I am wrong, that anybody could throw it further than Elway (which, probably, means throwing it harder/faster than Elway).

But as big as Elway is, Allen is two inches taller. Even though I had heard how big he was, the first time I saw him (even as a Wyoming football fan who had heard he was big) I didn't recognize him because he just seemed to tall to be a quarterback. He looks like a tight end.

I could be wrong. Elway had a massive arm. I always heard he was an outfielder at Stanford, but I saw him at third base a few times and it was amazing how quickly the ball got from his hand to first base (Mike Aldrete, perhaps, or was that later?). And we all know about the Elway Cross.

But this kid Allen has an amazing arm, too, in a slightly bigger body.

In the end, I guess it is hard to tell. And it doesn't really matter. The point is the Bills should have used that arm before they were more than a touchdown behind.

Though he was before my time, I certainly do not dispute that pre-Patriots Plunkett's passes were works of art. But more of a "drop it in the bucket" arc than Elway's or Allen's cannon shots, it seems to me. But I have only seen him in film, never live, so maybe I'm wrong.

Mahomes and Stafford can both throw it deep, to be sure. But neither would stand a chance in a distance contest against Elway or Allen, imo.

RE: Mahomes vs Allen - DC 86 - 01-24-2022

(01-24-2022, 05:33 PM)Blue Hawk (Mizzou) Card Wrote:
(01-24-2022, 04:53 PM)Phogge Wrote: Arms. Allen no doubt has one but I doubt if he had the MPH that Elway did. Long passes? Stafford throws an accurate rainbow, Mahomes and Rodgers can flick it 70 yards on the money. None of them however threw a prettier deep ball than pre-getting his brains beat out Jim Plunkett.

I do realize it seems impossible, and maybe I am wrong, that anybody could throw it further than Elway (which, probably, means throwing it harder/faster than Elway).

But as big as Elway is, Allen is two inches taller. Even though I had heard how big he was, the first time I saw him (even as a Wyoming football fan who had heard he was big) I didn't recognize him because he just seemed to tall to be a quarterback. He looks like a tight end.

I could be wrong. Elway had a massive arm. I always heard he was an outfielder at Stanford, but I saw him at third base a few times and it was amazing how quickly the ball got from his hand to first base (Mike Aldrete, perhaps, or was that later?). And we all know about the Elway Cross.

But this kid Allen has an amazing arm, too, in a slightly bigger body.

In the end, I guess it is hard to tell. And it doesn't really matter. The point is the Bills should have used that arm before they were more than a touchdown behind.

Though he was before my time, I certainly do not dispute that pre-Patriots Plunkett's passes were works of art. But more of a "drop it in the bucket" arc than Elway's or Allen's cannon shots, it seems to me. But I have only seen him in film, never live, so maybe I'm wrong.

Mahomes and Stafford can both throw it deep, to be sure. But neither would stand a chance in a distance contest against Elway or Allen, imo.

Since they started measuring quarterbacks' throws at the combine and such the fastest recorded throws have indeed been by Josh Allen, 62 mph.

I'm biased but it's hard to imagine someone throwing harder than Elway, but we can't know. Anecdotally the Broncos would set their Juggs machines at 70-80 mph to acclimate their receivers to his throws.

Height and arm length helps to throw hard but the fastest fastballs of their eras were thrown by Bob Feller (6-0) and Nolan Ryan (6-2) so it doesn't convince me that Allen throws harder than Elway just because he is taller.

Brett Favre and Jeff George had very strong arms as well.

RE: Mahomes vs Allen - Maple Leaf - 01-24-2022

(01-24-2022, 04:53 PM)Phogge Wrote: Arms. Allen no doubt has one but I doubt if he had the MPH that Elway did. Long passes? Stafford throws an accurate rainbow, Mahomes and Rodgers can flick it 70 yards on the money. None of them however threw a prettier deep ball than pre-getting his brains beat out Jim Plunkett.

Watching Plunkett throwing deep to Gene Washington was a real treat, one of the assistant coaches told Plunkett don't worry about overthrowing Washington, he can outrun the ball. Another Stanford QB who could really gun it was Dave Lewis, unfortunately he came along in the early/mid 60's before Ralston implement a pro style passing attach.