WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59

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RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - crackpot - 01-07-2024

(01-07-2024, 06:59 PM)2006alum Wrote:
(01-07-2024, 04:52 PM)81alum Wrote: Well, we gave up a part of our 20 point lead in that uneven 4th quarter, but not enough to make it close. Certainly a better game than WSU.

1) Lepolo covered Washington star Elle Ladine in the first half, and did so quite credibly. Bosgana was on her part of the second half. Ladine did not really heat up until the second half, and at 12 points that is about half of what she had against Cal and half of what she had against us last year.

2) The question I posed at halftime to the Cardboard gathering was this: early in her career, Brink got into foul trouble by being too aggressive on defense and going for blocks that were not there. She hacked the arms of shooters. She corrected that--seemingly completely. I can't remember a foul called on her when going for a block this year. This year, however, she is being called for many offensive fouls. Why?

Thanks as always for the great recaps, 81! Haven't had a chance to see today's game, so can't say specific to this game, but this season the NCAA removed the restricted area for the women's game to be only the area immediately under the basket, rather than the 4 feet out. I suspect Cam is used to having more space to attack where defenders can't post up and draw a charge. FWIW, I feel like I've seen more charge calls across WBB this season, so I don't think Cam is alone here - lots of players still adjusting, and savvy defenders can take advantage.

Ahh...is this why no calls on defensive players behind the line? Heck, why not add another line? That is so confusing.

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - 2006alum - 01-07-2024

(01-07-2024, 07:29 PM)crackpot Wrote:
(01-07-2024, 06:59 PM)2006alum Wrote: Thanks as always for the great recaps, 81! Haven't had a chance to see today's game, so can't say specific to this game, but this season the NCAA removed the restricted area for the women's game to be only the area immediately under the basket, rather than the 4 feet out. I suspect Cam is used to having more space to attack where defenders can't post up and draw a charge. FWIW, I feel like I've seen more charge calls across WBB this season, so I don't think Cam is alone here - lots of players still adjusting, and savvy defenders can take advantage.

Ahh...is this why no calls on defensive players behind the line? Heck, why not add another line? That is so confusing.

Exactly. Yeah I'm not sure why they made this rule change, although it does tend to punish overly physical post play. To the degree Cam is unusually susceptible to it, I think she's so fast for a post and often is charging towards the hoop from the key, so the new rule will punish a forward like her more than a true center who's having the ball passed into her when she's already underneath the basket.

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - BosCard - 01-07-2024

At times it really seemed like Washington's strategy to win the game was to stand in front of Brink and then flop. Its a smart strategy and probably their best shot at winning but it just looks so desperate especially in the second half when the refs were saying no thank you and the Washington players were still falling all over the place whenever Brink was near them.

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - BillBradley - 01-07-2024

(01-07-2024, 07:53 PM)BosCard Wrote: At times it really seemed like Washington's strategy to win the game was to stand in front of Brink and then flop. Its a smart strategy and probably their best shot at winning but it just looks so desperate especially in the second half when the refs were saying no thank you and the Washington players were still falling all over the place whenever Brink was near them.

So desperate. I can understand trying to take lots of charges on basketball plays, but the rest of the flopping was ridiculous. I was surprised there were no flop warnings issued (were there?). Especially on the plays where Cam was simply running the court and UW players stopped in front of her and flopped. So lame.

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - Card10Fan - 01-07-2024

How do we feel about our team as we head to the mountain schools? Utah coming off a loss will be hungry. Colorado barely escaped Arizona Friday night. The Pac12 grind continues.

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - 2006alum - 01-07-2024

(01-07-2024, 07:57 PM)BillBradley Wrote:
(01-07-2024, 07:53 PM)BosCard Wrote: At times it really seemed like Washington's strategy to win the game was to stand in front of Brink and then flop. Its a smart strategy and probably their best shot at winning but it just looks so desperate especially in the second half when the refs were saying no thank you and the Washington players were still falling all over the place whenever Brink was near them.
So desperate. I can understand trying to take lots of charges on basketball plays, but the rest of the flopping was ridiculous. I was surprised there were no flop warnings issued (were there?). Especially on the plays where Cam was simply running the court and UW players stopped in front of her and flopped. So lame.

Oddly, the other rule change this season was to make flopping a technical foul. Cynics at the start of the season questioned how often refs will actually call that, especially late in the game. And I'm assuming no techs were assessed in the second half, which makes me think the Cynics were right. Kind of a shame, because man do I hate flopping. Other than some occasional over-sells by the Hulls, I've been grateful that pestilence has not plagued many players on our team over the years!

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - UltimateCard - 01-07-2024

(01-07-2024, 07:53 PM)BosCard Wrote: At times it really seemed like Washington's strategy to win the game was to stand in front of Brink and then flop. Its a smart strategy and probably their best shot at winning but it just looks so desperate especially in the second half when the refs were saying no thank you and the Washington players were still falling all over the place whenever Brink was near them.

Not sure if this was visible on the telecast but mid 3rd Q, Tara was letting one of the refs have it - she was at least 3 or 4 feet onto the court, during live play, down toward the baseline (at the far end from her customary spot on the bench). I’ve never seen her so livid and don’t know how she wasn’t T’d up. Guess it did the trick - from that point on, it seemed like the refs started calling blocking fouls on UW, and Cam didn’t pick up any in the 2H.

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - SkiBum80 - 01-07-2024

(01-07-2024, 08:10 PM)Card10Fan Wrote: How do we feel about our team as we head to the mountain schools? Utah coming off a loss will be hungry. Colorado barely escaped Arizona Friday night. The Pac12 grind continues.

I feel better than I did a couple weeks ago.
Lepolo showed she can knock down threes.
While of course we always better with Cam on the floor, the law group of Iriafen, Demetre, and Agara have showed they can often play big and strong and continue rebounding and scoring in the paint if she's on the bench.
Nothing a sure thing in the PAC-12 though as you rightfully allude.

Baez87 - Baez87 - 01-07-2024

For those who wish to see or record the full Stanford vs WU game, it is currently being repeated on the Sling TV’s PAC 12 Bay Area channel. The earlier recording saved on Sling’s DVR only contained the first hour of the game cast. I’m hoping that this one will be complete.
I watched the first half after coming home from the game. I often watch the game cast to slow down the plays that I missed at the game or watch a play more closely that I thought the refereeing crew might have miss-called.
During the game, I thought that one of WU’s strategies was to set up Kiki and Cam by stationing defenders in their path, then flopping to give them fouls. Well, after watching the first hour of the recording, I am convinced that that was exactly what WU was doing! That strategy can result in injury. I hope that Tara complains to the Conference!

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - 81alum - 01-07-2024

Press conference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCCA4qS-nMQ

Highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzoWzzAuxck

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 5 - Hieronymus - 01-07-2024

Finally on where I am.

Through the first half so far. Stanford didn’t do a lot obviously bad first half except the outside shooting was terrible and UW hit a few tough shots. The officiating isn’t so terrible either except the offensive fouls. I think it’s 4-0 all on us. One bad one each on Brink and Kiki had a large impact even if it was only a couple of bad calls.

First Brink charge probably was legit. I say probably because I have no calibration on the new restricted area rule. What really is right under the basket? Stupid new rule. Draw a new damn line if you thought it was too far out. The worst idea in the world was to let officials make it up.

And my new college pet peeve comes from the NBA. I despise the “let’s wait and see if the shot goes in before I call a foul garbage.” It’s a foul or it isn’t. And they aren’t even trying to camouflage it. See the ball bounce on the floor, then blow the whistle. Ridiculous.

Second half I would even call the officiating pretty good. As was pointed out earlier the offensive foul calls mostly stopped. I remember one on UW and that is about it. And that was with a lot of UW players jumping on the ground. repeatedly. As was also noted earlier.

Third quarter jump finally got hot and Bosgana had some impactful defense. Fourth quarter the outside shooting cooled off again and the team was kind of an unfocused mess. Bad on transition D. Kiki put up the wild shot not realizing the shot clock reset, etc. It still ended as a comfortable win, so good enough.

-Bosagna’s shot looks terrible right now
- Leopolo needs to find ways to generate some offensive when she is not 10:feet wide open. 3 shots today but 2 were forced by quarter ends.
- entry passing needs to be better. Too many lobs from weird angles. Cam is going to get killed one of these games as multiple players converge on her with the ball hanging the in the air.

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - M T - 01-08-2024

There were no flop calls during the game. In the USC-UCLA game, Missy called a flop warning on someone who got pushed down (straight-armed) by Betts. The player going down had her head follow her body. Flops are almost physically impossible unless the head follows the body. But, you know Missy, gotta call something weird.

In retrospect, Washington stayed far out, with good spacing and sent runners through the lane. Probably a good approach against Stanford if you don't have a big.

Coming into the game UW had 48pts average by opponents, +11 rebounds/game. Stanford 71 points, +23 rebounds.

A detailed look at the game & the calls.
TL;DR? At least look at Q3 6:30 - 5:48
Q1
7:13 Tiffany Bird calls a foul on Jump which wasn't there. The TV camera has a better angle and you can see she got all ball, no arm, no body.
6:12 Tiffany Bird calls the charge against Brink. It was legitimate, albeit a fairly soft contact. Head followed body. Player and her teammates celebrated like she just made a half-court buzzer beater. Iriafen made a disgust-gesture that is a borderline technical foul.
6:12 Refs missed that Iriafen was in the lane for (at least) 6 seconds.
6:00 Iriafen lets her opponent past her to the rim.
5:44 Karen Lasuik calls a foul on UW player for interfering with a pass into Iriafen. Often not called. I guess she had Iriafen's right hand before it came up for the ball.
5:32 Bird calls a foul on UW for an arm across Iriafen's arm during a shot. Normal call.
5:22 Flops don't have to go to the floor. A screener flops by throwing her head and hands back. No call either way.
5:04 Bird missed that the UW player had her right foot out of bounds when she reached in to restart dribble on the ball.
Lasuik makes a legit foul call on Iriafen in the scramble. This was called a shooting foul when the contact occurred when she had her back to the basket. Compare to non-shooting-foul on a Brink shot later. (Q4 5:55)
4:06 Lasuik calls a personal foul on UW. It should have been a flop as well. Brink was afraid it was her 2nd foul. UW player ran to get her body under Brink's outstretch arm and then flopped backwards.
2:18 Brink could have been called (by Brian Woods) for an off-arm push back against UW during a rebound. There's been some very physical pushing (see previous inbounds play) so I'm not going to quite say it should have been called.
1:50 Tie ball, possession Stanford. I don't know why Stanford players went to wrong end of court.
1:50 Bird says something to Brink & oppoenent before throw-in. Not sure what.
1:35 Bird calls foul on UW player "swimming" arm over Brink as ball is coming to her. Legit but not always called. Announcers said something about a 3-second call, but Brink was only in the lane for 1 second.
1:33 Lasuik calls an offensive foul on Brink. In replay, head and body moved together. I'd say not a flop. Again she is treated by her team and the announcers like she hit a buzzer beater. Brinks center of gravity contacts upper portion of defender. IMO, Brink needs to lead more with her hips, not her torso.
1:11 Brian Woods calls foul on Lepolo during a drive.
0:45 Agara pads her rebounding stats at the cost of her FG%. I saw what looked like 3 uncalled hacks on her arms. No calls by Woods.
0:20 Good positioning on D by Iriiafen, followed by a block.

Q2
9:35 Lasuik calls a foul on UW on a shot by Iriafen. Proper call.
8:54 Harriel telegraphs a pass for a TO.
8:30 Bird calls foul on UW on a shot by Iriafen. I don't see it.
8:11 Good transition by Agara. Good feed by Lepolo. Great 3pt make.
7:15 Clutch shot from the elbow by Iriafen.
6:25 Ogden's 3pt confirms Stanford is not a one-woman team.
5:54 Bird calls a foul on Iriafen on a well-set screen. Honestly, I can't figure out why she called. It was not a blind screen. She was not moving or leaning. Her legs were not spread more than most screens. Her arms were against her body. Bad call.
5:38 Ogden runs through a screen. Should have been called, from camera angle. Woods would have been the ref to call it.
4:17 Bird calls a foul on UW on an Agara shot. Proper call.
2:56 Lasuik? properly calls a double dribble.
2:47 Woods calls a foul on screen by Lepolo. Proper call.
2:11 Lax ball control by Clardy results in 2pts by UW.
2:01 Clardy's pass is almost intercepted.
1:47 Good transition defense by Jump to prevent fast break from going to the basket.
1:25 Interesting move to the basket by Agara from the elbow. She leans way down to dribble low. Defender tries to stop her. Foul called by Lasuik.
0:35 Bird calls a foul on a put-back by Agara. One of the triple-team had her arms forward, not straight up and Agara went into them.
0:05 Clardy telegraphs another pass

Q3
9:18 UW #3 sticks her arm out to grab Brink across the waist to keep her from breaking to the basket to catch the ball. On the other side of Brink, #14 puts her hand up to say she fouled (#3 put her hands to her mouth "OMG"), and Bird gives her the foul. This would have been #3's third foul, but #14's 2nd. The foul should have gone against the player who impacted the most, #3.
8:46 Bosgana does some good defense. Brink is caught napping, and then catches up and swipes at a shot but doesn't quite foul. UW gets 2.
8:36 Finally, Jump, at 0-7 from 3, hits one.
7:54 Iriafen could have been called for an offensive foul. Defensive player's reaction was leading with her head (ie, flopping).
6:46 On D, Brink keeps backing to the basket, leaving her player miles open at the 3pt line. Wide open 3. (4th made 3 of the season.)
6:30 Woods calls a foul on hack on Brink's arm as she shoots.
6:30 BAD OFFICIATING. After giving the ball to Brink to shoot a FT, Lasuik walks to the UW fouler and says something to her. The UW player responds, polnting to somewhere. 95% FT% Brink misses the shot. (My comment based on what I saw at the game. TV only shows the ref out of position with #14 talking and gesturing after the FT misses.)
6:26 Bosgana causes a UW TO.
6:14 Lasuik does not call a foul on a Brink drive, where Brink's layup is short. Hmm... Not a foul? The Stanford coaches thought so. Tara actually puts a foot out on the court to yell at the passing Lasuik.
5:58 Brink misses a layup and a follow. This is the play where Tara ssid she thought she (Tara) might have gotten a technical. She was already standing from the 6:14 non-call, and then walks on the court toward the ref while the put-back is up in the air. She is inside the 3pt line talking to the ref Lasuik as UW heads up court.
5:42 Lasuik properly calls a moving screen against UW.
5:20 Lasuik does not call a potential offensive foul on Brink as she shoves her guard with her left hand. Nor does she call a foul (properly I think) as Brink turns around from her shot and the opponent is right there, and then goes down. I do not think that was a flop or in anyway intentional.
If I were the coach, I would have sat Brink to avoid her emotions running away with her.
4:20 Beautiful Bosgana steal
2:07 Bird calls a blocking foul on a transition. It appears the UW player was intending to track Lepolo, by running across the court in the back court while everyone else was headed towards the Stanford basket, and somehow(??) missed that she was going to blind side Brink. It seems suspicious that she collided with Brink but I didn't see anything in her actions that suggested that it was intentional.
1:42 Woods calls a ticky-tack foul on Ogden, but legit.
1:24 Very close to an Ogden foul on a 3pt shot, but no contact. Woods does not call it.
0:52 Lasuik calls a foul on UW on a layup attempt by Jump. Announcers initially call it a block but you can see her shooting hand get knocked down. Jump grabs her right shoulder after this.
0:26 Woods calls a UW player for pulling Iriafen back away from a pass. I don't see how he could have seen the contact, but the right hand around the waist is visible to the camera (and to Bird).

Q4
9:46 Woods properly calls Iriafen for a foul (bumps her with her hip).
8:46 Some disagreement over who gets to inbound. IIRC, I thought Stanford was gifted this. Broadcast doesn't show it.
8:40 Nice slash by Lepolo and dish to the 3pt line for a wide open 3pt miss. One thing I like is that we had 3 people nearby to rebound.
8:11 Agara at a full sprint down the court, but looking backwards, collides with a UW player at the foul line. We can't see the UW player much before the collision, but thiis almost definitely should be a foul on Agara. But no whistle ?????
8:05 A UW player falls to the ground
7:55 Two UW players collide just behind Brink and both fall to the ground.
7:32 Stanford D breaks down. UW player gets a layup with no Stanford player within 10 feet.
5:55 Brink runs toward the basket for a rebound. Brink and I both thought she was shooting when fouled. Lasuik did not (I can understand that).
5:40 Brink drags her pivot foot. Proper travel call by Woods
3:38 Demetre likely would have been called for a illegal screen earlier in the game
3:30 Woods properly calls a foul on UW
2:18 POOR transition defense by Stanford. I'd put a good portion of the reason on Brink. She's too high (at the foul line and blocks Lepolo from going to the left side where two UW players are headed.
1:35 Bird calls a bit of a ticky-tack foul against UW.

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - 81alum - 01-08-2024

(01-08-2024, 04:20 AM)M T Wrote: A detailed look at the game & the calls.

Wow, MT, you have outdone yourself. This is great. I will keep this by my side as I rewatch the game. Thanks!

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - TonyLima - 01-08-2024

Looked at 3q 6:30. Tara’s movements are clear. My guess: she didn’t get a T because the refs knew she was right.

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 5 - BillBradley - 01-08-2024

(01-07-2024, 11:51 PM)Hieronymus Wrote: -Bosagna’s shot looks terrible right now
Agree 100%. Flippy, off balance, wild misses. She should only shoot a 3 when she is wide open and has her feet set.
- Leopolo needs to find ways to generate some offensive when she is not 10:feet wide open. 3 shots today but 2 were forced by quarter ends.
Agree, and it would be great, but I don't think she has the skills yet. Every once in a while they run a play to get her going downhill to her right and she tries to power through the opposing guard, but it's not pretty. I'm just ecstatic that she's been takinging and hitting wide open threes.
- entry passing needs to be better. Too many lobs from weird angles. Cam is going to get killed one of these games as multiple players converge on her with the ball hanging the in the air.
For sure. We give up 4+ points a game because of this.

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - biketoc - 01-08-2024

I sit right there and was so surprised to see her come off the bench like that. She NEVER goes that far! I believe she was trying to protect Cam as she was getting mauled at times. I was surprised she didn't get T'd up. I was even more surprised that it wasn't mentioned at all on the TV broadcast.

(01-08-2024, 10:28 AM)TonyLima Wrote: Looked at 3q 6:30. Tara’s movements are clear. My guess: she didn’t get a T because the refs knew she was right.

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - M T - 01-08-2024

For those that missed the press conference, Tara used the analogy of an orchestra, with different players getting chances to solo,
and Lepolo keeping the beat going....

I thought that was a great analogy. IMO, Lepolo is perhaps performing the most consistently on the team. Her defense is superb; her distribution is almost flawless. I don't care if others think she should also sew the uniforms and dust the banisters, she's doing what the team needs.

As for Brink's 3pt attempts, she's hitting 0.323, or 0.97 points per try. The team is averaging 1.09 points/2FGA and 1.03 points/3FGA. That's not too much of a drop for her attempts. I do agree that we lose her rebounding when she tries a 3, but on the other hand, she would likely pull one of the opponent's rebounders out with her. It spreads their defense just that much more. And for those who always look over the fence at the grass, it is one less chance for an offensive foul. Sprinkling Brink 3FGA in now and then seems worth it.

When we go to the NW to face them again, I am cautiously optimistic. We've shown we can beat them, even with extended bench time for our bigs. But they are definitely a good team with an effective scheme.

(01-08-2024, 12:50 PM)biketoc Wrote: I sit right there and was so surprised to see her come off the bench like that. She NEVER goes that far! I believe she was trying to protect Cam as she was getting mauled at times. I was surprised she didn't get T'd up. I was even more surprised that it wasn't mentioned at all on the TV broadcast.

At Maples, I didn't notice it during the game. While it is surprising the announcers missed it, I can't be too surprised. But when I saw it in the video, wow!

Let me introduce Karen Lasuik. She's an elementary school teacher that has been officiating for 30 years, mostly in Canada but also in the Pacific NW, for FIBA and the NCAA. She officiated in the Rio Olympics. She's officiated 2 Stanford games before.

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - Hieronymus - 01-08-2024

biketoc dateline='[url=tel:1704743425' Wrote: 1704743425[/url]']
I sit right there and was so surprised to see her come off the bench like that. She NEVER goes that far! I believe she was trying to protect Cam as she was getting mauled at times. I was surprised she didn't get T'd up. I was even more surprised that it wasn't mentioned at all on the TV broadcast.

TonyLima dateline='[url=tel:1704734939' Wrote: 1704734939[/url]']
Looked at 3q 6:30. Tara’s movements are clear. My guess: she didn’t get a T because the refs knew she was right.

For some reference on how absurd the WSU game and first half of UW was.

I can’t find women’s stats, but Pomeroy had men’s stats a few years back. I don’t know of a reason why women’s should be too different.

4 offensive fouls per game - not team - in 2017/18.
4.6 halfway into 18/19 and I would expect that moved towards the previous mean as the season went on
The worst teams had 2.5 per game, the best 1.12.

So Stanford had 7 vs. WSU and at least 4 in a half vs. UW. Many of which were terrible. See Kiki’s with 3:10 left vs WSU or Cam’s second vs. UW.

Basically for a game and a half we had at least 11 offensive fouls vs. an expectation of 3. If we were the worst men’s team in the country the expectation still would only be 4.

Tara should have been yelling.

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - acerep - 01-08-2024

I've posted my report on the Washington games at www.stanfordfbc.org.

RE: WBB: Stanford 71 Washington 59 - old spanish trail - 01-08-2024

(01-08-2024, 01:42 PM)Hieronymus Wrote:
biketoc dateline='[url=tel:1704743425' Wrote: 1704743425[/url]']
I sit right there and was so surprised to see her come off the bench like that. She NEVER goes that far! I believe she was trying to protect Cam as she was getting mauled at times. I was surprised she didn't get T'd up. I was even more surprised that it wasn't mentioned at all on the TV broadcast.

TonyLima dateline='[url=tel:1704734939' Wrote: 1704734939[/url]']
Looked at 3q 6:30. Tara’s movements are clear. My guess: she didn’t get a T because the refs knew she was right.

For some reference on how absurd the WSU game and first half of UW was.

I can’t find women’s stats, but Pomeroy had men’s stats a few years back. I don’t know of a reason why women’s should be too different.

4 offensive fouls per game - not team - in 2017/18.
4.6 halfway into 18/19 and I would expect that moved towards the previous mean as the season went on
The worst teams had 2.5 per game, the best 1.12.

So Stanford had 7 vs. WSU and at least 4 in a half vs. UW. Many of which were terrible. See Kiki’s with 3:10 left vs WSU or Cam’s second vs. UW.

Basically for a game and a half we had at least 11 offensive fouls vs. an expectation of 3. If we were the worst men’s team in the country the expectation still would only be 4.

Tara should have been yelling.

Agree, but I had a good laugh at the flops. They were as bad as McCaffrey's.