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Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - burger - 06-26-2015

(06-26-2015, 07:15 AM)winflop link Wrote:[quote author=fullmetal link=topic=12300.msg121403#msg121403 date=1435327654]
Dawkins had better be working the phones to land Randle a shot somewhere.


Dawkins had better be working the phones to secure his next job.
[/quote]

Randle worked out for at least a few NBA teams before the draft.  He'll land on someone's Summer League team and maybe even in the D-league.

Unfortunately, I don't expect Dawkins to be looking for a job until Muir is looking for a job.

UPDATE: Twitter tells me that Randle signed a summer league contract with Golden State.  Good for him.

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - StannyBoy - 06-26-2015

great pickup by the Warriors. He'll fit in well as a backup SG next to Livingston who's 6 foot 7 and guards wing players. And Randle can play spot minutes at PG. He just needs to be more consistent with his shot to stick in the league.

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - Mick - 06-26-2015

(06-26-2015, 07:20 AM)washingtonismoney link Wrote:Plenty of 6'3" guards and shorter (who are mostly scorers) have careers in the NBA. What a strange argument.
You know about Earl Boykins, Spud Webb, Muggsy Bogues and Nate Robinson, all 5'9" or shorter.  How about:
Allen Iverson.  6' even.
Calvin Murphy.  5'11"
Brevin Knight, 5'10"
Isaiah Thomas, 5'9"
Isiah Thomas, 6'1"
Damon Stoudamire, 5'10"
Michael Adams, 5'10"
Stephon Marbury, 6'2"
Avery Johnson, 5'10"
Steve Nash, 6'3"
Mark Price, 6' even
Rajan Rondo, 6'1"
Tony Parker, 6'2"
Kevin Johnson, 6'1"
Tim Hardaway, 6' even
KC Jones, 6'1"
Mo Cheeks, 6'1"
Gail Goodrich, 6'1"
Bill Sharman, 6'1"
Hal Greer, 6'2"
Chris Paul, 6' even
Bob Cousy, 6'1"
John Stockton, 6'1"
Jerry West, 6'2"

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - Leftcoast - 06-26-2015

Well, then here is one more!  Steph Curry is listed as 6' 3" and I hear he had a decent year.

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - winflop - 06-26-2015


So when you narrow that list (including Curry) to the players who are in today's NBA, there are only five and all of them are point guards - Nash, Rondo, Parker, and Paul - all of them are point guards who can score.  But they first and foremost are point guards.


Again, my point is that Randle is not a good enough ball-handler to be an NBA point guard.  And none of the players on your list are scoring guards.


You can probably find a scoring/shooting guard under 6'4" on some benches.  Maybe Randle can be a 3rd or 4th guard on someone's roster, but I don't see him having a substantive NBA career which is too bad because he was a GREAT college player.

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - ThePassionOfTheChryst - 06-27-2015

(06-26-2015, 05:02 PM)Mick link Wrote:[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=12300.msg121405#msg121405 date=1435328459]
Plenty of 6'3" guards and shorter (who are mostly scorers) have careers in the NBA. What a strange argument.
You know about Earl Boykins, Spud Webb, Muggsy Bogues and Nate Robinson, all 5'9" or shorter.  How about:
Allen Iverson.  6' even.
Calvin Murphy.  5'11"
Brevin Knight, 5'10"
Isaiah Thomas, 5'9"
Isiah Thomas, 6'1"
Damon Stoudamire, 5'10"
Michael Adams, 5'10"
Stephon Marbury, 6'2"
Avery Johnson, 5'10"
Steve Nash, 6'3"
Mark Price, 6' even
Rajan Rondo, 6'1"
Tony Parker, 6'2"
Kevin Johnson, 6'1"
Tim Hardaway, 6' even
KC Jones, 6'1"
Mo Cheeks, 6'1"
Gail Goodrich, 6'1"
Bill Sharman, 6'1"
Hal Greer, 6'2"
Chris Paul, 6' even
Bob Cousy, 6'1"
John Stockton, 6'1"
Jerry West, 6'2"
[/quote]

Wardell Stephen Curry II is on the phone and would like to speak with you

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - winflop - 06-27-2015

(06-27-2015, 12:00 AM)ThePassionOfTheChryst link Wrote:Wardell Stephen Curry II is on the phone and would like to speak with you


Point guard...

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - Mick - 06-27-2015

(06-27-2015, 06:26 AM)winflop link Wrote:[quote author=ThePassionOfTheChryst link=topic=12300.msg121464#msg121464 date=1435388422]
Wardell Stephen Curry II is on the phone and would like to speak with you


Point guard...
[/quote]

Well, not strictly.  He's typically around 7th in the league in assists and 7th in scoring, but the W's usually have so many assists, his assists as a percentage of W's scoring is nowhere near what Stockton or Nash or Kidd had.  And he frequently plays with Livingston, and Green and Bogut bring the ball up the court regularly, especially when they're running the offense through Bogut, and Curry was 8th in the league in turnovers last year, but 2nd the year before, so maybe PG isn't his highest and best use...

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - washingtonismoney - 06-27-2015

Score-first guards 6'3" and shorter currently playing in the NBA (which we'll arbitrarily define as assist rate of 25 or lower*):

Avery Bradley (Celtics)
Isaiah Thomas (Celtics)
Markel Brown (Nets)
Brian Roberts (Hornets)
Kemba Walker (Hornets)
Aaron Brooks (Bulls)
Kyrie Irving (Cavs)
Monta Ellis (Mavericks)
Ian Clark (Nuggets)
Leandro Barbosa (Warriors)
Patrick Beverly (Rockets)
Nick Johnson (Rockets)
Jason Terry (Rockets)
Dwight Buycks (Lakers)
Russ Smith (Grizzlies)
Tyler Johnson (Heat)
Jerryd Bayless (Bucks)
Toney Douglas (Pelicans)
Jimmer Fredette (Pelicans)
Langston Galloway (Knicks)
Russell Westbrook (OKC)
Ben Gordon (Magic)
Willie Green (Magic)
Jerel McNeal (Suns)
Damian Lillard (TrailBlazers)


* (that is, less than a quarter of possessions used by the player end in an assist).

So, yes, it's quite strange to claim that it's difficult to find NBA pass-rarely guards shorter than 6'3". There are several! I even left off a few borderline examples. Some of these players are stars; some are currently respectable players; some are old and were once respectable players; some are surely never-weres and will be out of the league soon.

Would I recommend being a shorter-than-6'3"-guard who can't pass? I would not. What does this mean for Randle? Well, to be honest, Randle's in a quandary. First of all, his passing skills are actually *quite* poor -- only about 14% of his possessions ended in an assist, which is dismal. At the same time, he's not a great shooter. That means he needs the ball in his hands, and he's going to try to score. That's the only thing Randle has that resembles an NBA skill at the moment, and unfortunately he was only a good scorer by college standards (56 TS% last year...).

That makes it very unlikely he'll make the NBA, unless he completely refashions his game. Otherwise, if he's still interested in a basketball career, he can head over to Europe. If he catches on with a good team, that's six figures after taxes plus (often) a free car, apartment, etc. There are worse fates than living in, say, Seville on six figures with a free car.

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - Mick - 06-27-2015

Earl Boykins 9 ppg, 3 apg, SG, 5'9"
Jose Barea, 6'2", 3.4 apg, 9 ppg, SG
Muggsy Bogues, 5'3", same apg and ppg, PG
Nate Robinson, SG
Allen Iverson.  6' even, #11 all time, 27 ppg, 6 asst, SG
Calvin Murphy.  5'11", 19 ppg, 4.4 asst, SG
Brevin Knight, 5'10", PG
Isaiah Thomas, 5'9", SG
Isiah Thomas, 6'1" both
Damon Stoudamire, 5'10", both
Michael Adams, 5'10", SG
Stephon Marbury, 6'2" #95 all t ime scoring, PG
Avery Johnson, 5'10"
Steve Nash, 6'3"  #78 all time scoring, PG
Mark Price, 6' even
Rajan Rondo, 6'1"
Tony Parker, 6'2", #78 all time scoring, SG
Earl Monroe, 6’3”#77 all time, 19 ppg, SG
Kevin Johnson, 6'1"
Tim Hardaway, 6' even
KC Jones, 6'1"
Jarrett Jack, 6'3", 4.4 apg, 11 ppg, SG first, then PG
Jose Calderon, 6'3", 7 apg, 10 ppg, PG
Mo Cheeks, 6'1", 7 apg, 11 ppg, PG
Gail Goodrich, 6'1", #48 NBA scoring all time, SG
Bill Sharman, 6'1", SG
Hal Greer, 6'2", #32 all time scoring, SG
Chris Paul, 6' even, both
Bob Cousy, 6'1", #87  all time, 7.5apg, 19 ppg, PG
John Stockton, 6'1", #6 all time, 13 ppg, 10.5 asst.  #41 NBA scoring all time.  PG
Jerry West, 6'2", #19 all time scoring, SG
World B. Free, 6'2", #66 all time scoring career scoring average 20.2, 3.7 asst per game, scoring guard
Steph Curry, 6'3", 7 apg, 21 ppg, both
Byron Scott, 6'3", 14 ppg, 2.5 asst, scoring guard
NARE ARCHIBALD, 6’1” #91 scoring all time, 19 ppg 7.5 apg, both SG and PG
JOE DUMARS 6’3”,
Butch Beard, 6'3", 3 apg, 9 ppg, SG


Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - CornFed - 06-27-2015

I'm thinking these lists must be pretty frustrating for winflop.  :)

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - terry - 06-27-2015

Randle's problem isn't his height. It's that he doesn't have great athletic ability, great quickness, great ball handling skills, or great shooting ability. He's a really good college player. But a lot of really good college players don't have NBA ability. Anthony Brown is more athletic and a better pure shooter, so he got drafted.

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - Farm93 - 06-27-2015

(06-27-2015, 07:44 PM)terry link Wrote:Randle's problem isn't his height. It's that he doesn't have great athletic ability, great quickness, great ball handling skills, or great shooting ability. He's a really good college player. But a lot of really good college players don't have NBA ability. Anthony Brown is more athletic and a better pure shooter, so he got drafted.
Randle's problem is/was that he spent 4 years with JD.  And really, what does JD know about being a guard?  JD apparently does not know that much about the position since Randle's game improved so little over 4 years.


When Randle first played for Stanford I thought he had so much potential and could easily join that list of noteworthy 6' 3" NBA players.  The idea that we are tagging him as "just" a really good college player reveals so much since he was an exceptional college player when he stepped on the court at Maples as a freshmen.

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - winflop - 06-27-2015

(06-27-2015, 09:23 AM)washingtonismoney link Wrote:Score-first guards 6'3" and shorter currently playing in the NBA (which we'll arbitrarily define as assist rate of 25 or lower*):

Avery Bradley (Celtics)
Isaiah Thomas (Celtics)
Markel Brown (Nets)
Brian Roberts (Hornets)
Kemba Walker (Hornets)
Aaron Brooks (Bulls)
Kyrie Irving (Cavs)
Monta Ellis (Mavericks)
Ian Clark (Nuggets)
Leandro Barbosa (Warriors)
Patrick Beverly (Rockets)
Nick Johnson (Rockets)
Jason Terry (Rockets)
Dwight Buycks (Lakers)
Russ Smith (Grizzlies)
Tyler Johnson (Heat)
Jerryd Bayless (Bucks)
Toney Douglas (Pelicans)
Jimmer Fredette (Pelicans)
Langston Galloway (Knicks)
Russell Westbrook (OKC)
Ben Gordon (Magic)
Willie Green (Magic)
Jerel McNeal (Suns)
Damian Lillard (TrailBlazers)


I see about four starters on this list - Lillard, Westbrook, Ellis, and Irving - and I would argue that ALL of them are the guys bringing the ball up the floor and running the offense.  But there may be one or two more on the list.


So maybe Randle has a chance to come off the bench as a 3rd or 4th guard, but that's about it.

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - washingtonismoney - 06-27-2015

(06-27-2015, 09:03 PM)winflop link Wrote:I see about four starters on this list - Lillard, Westbrook, Ellis, and Irving - and I would argue that ALL of them are the guys bringing the ball up the floor and running the offense.  But there may be one or two more on the list.

Bradley, Beverley and Walker averaged over 30 minutes per game last year. Thomas and Brooks were sixth men. And of course some of these guys were quite important in their day (Terry, Gordon) and have simply grown older.

Nevertheless -- to mix sporting metaphors -- you've moved the goalposts considerably. At first you insisted that 6'3"-and-under scoring guards don't have careers.  Now you're tacking on more subclauses than a legislative aide. What's odd about this scrambling is that it's totally unnecessary: Randle just doesn't have the skills necessary, and there's no need to make sweeping generalizations about the State of Basketball. Just admit you were wrong and move on.

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - CornFed - 06-27-2015

(06-27-2015, 09:50 PM)washingtonismoney link Wrote:[quote author=winflop link=topic=12300.msg121504#msg121504 date=1435464190]

I see about four starters on this list - Lillard, Westbrook, Ellis, and Irving - and I would argue that ALL of them are the guys bringing the ball up the floor and running the offense.  But there may be one or two more on the list.

Bradley, Beverley and Walker averaged over 30 minutes per game last year. Thomas and Brooks were sixth men. And of course some of these guys were quite important in their day (Terry, Gordon) and have simply grown older.

Nevertheless -- to mix sporting metaphors -- you've moved the goalposts considerably. At first you insisted that 6'3"-and-under scoring guards don't have careers.  Now you're tacking on more subclauses than a legislative aide. What's odd about this scrambling is that it's totally unnecessary: Randle just doesn't have the skills necessary, and there's no need to make sweeping generalizations about the State of Basketball. Just admit you were wrong and move on.
[/quote]


Wow.


And FWIW I haven't found a listing of Randle's height over 6'2".  At the Stanford website that is what it shows.

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - winflop - 06-28-2015

(06-27-2015, 09:50 PM)washingtonismoney link Wrote:[quote author=winflop link=topic=12300.msg121504#msg121504 date=1435464190]

I see about four starters on this list - Lillard, Westbrook, Ellis, and Irving - and I would argue that ALL of them are the guys bringing the ball up the floor and running the offense.  But there may be one or two more on the list.

Bradley, Beverley and Walker averaged over 30 minutes per game last year. Thomas and Brooks were sixth men. And of course some of these guys were quite important in their day (Terry, Gordon) and have simply grown older.

Nevertheless -- to mix sporting metaphors -- you've moved the goalposts considerably. At first you insisted that 6'3"-and-under scoring guards don't have careers.  Now you're tacking on more subclauses than a legislative aide. What's odd about this scrambling is that it's totally unnecessary: Randle just doesn't have the skills necessary, and there's no need to make sweeping generalizations about the State of Basketball. Just admit you were wrong and move on.
[/quote]


I did backtrack and said Randle COULD have a career as a backup.  That's the only goalpost I moved.  And I did admit that I didn't know some of the players you mentioned.


But guys who don't play any more/played in a different age, guys who run the offense (i.e., aren't an off-guard), and guys who USED to start but don't anymore really don't counter what I stated.


I do think Randle has the scoring skills to be an NBA off-guard, but he's just not tall enough.  He is tall enough to be a PG, but he lacks the skills for that position.

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - ThePassionOfTheChryst - 06-28-2015

(06-27-2015, 06:26 AM)winflop link Wrote:[quote author=ThePassionOfTheChryst link=topic=12300.msg121464#msg121464 date=1435388422]
Wardell Stephen Curry II is on the phone and would like to speak with you


Point guard...
[/quote]

I don't understand what that has to do with the post in question.

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - CompSci87 - 06-28-2015

(06-28-2015, 07:46 AM)garvin link Wrote:If Anthony Brown is a better pure shooter than Chasson Randle, he certainly hasn't proved it thus far. Brown's career field goal percentage at Stanford is .427, Randle's is .428. If we were down to one shot to decide a game, I would want Randle to take it rather than Brown.

My impression was that Randle takes it to the basket for a layup more, while Brown shoots more midrange jumpers and 3-pointers. If that's correct, an equal shooting percentage would still indicate Brown being a better pure shooter.

Re: Anthony Brown most underrated in draft? - FarmBoy - 06-28-2015

My view of CR's weakness is that he has a slashing, drive to the basket skill set but a shooting guard's body. You have to have Allen Iverson or Steve Francis' freak athleticism to make that work in the NBA if you're under 6'6"-6'8". Anthony Brown is longer and more athletic and my sense is he has more of an outside shooter's ability. 3P% for Brown this year was 44% vs 36% for Randle. Randle probably shot off the dribble more, which is a higher degree of difficulty shot, so it makes the % less comparable, but I still think Brown has a smoother mid- and long-range shooting ability.


But I will follow CR's career with interest and hope for the best, as I do all Stanford athletes.