Football Coach Search Master Thread (Troy Taylor) - Printable Version
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RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - SamuelMcF - 12-08-2022
(12-08-2022, 12:44 PM)msqueri Wrote:(12-08-2022, 11:42 AM)washingtonismoney Wrote:(12-08-2022, 11:26 AM)bl82 Wrote: Care to elaborate?
1) I think NFL coaches have big translation issues in college, for a variety of well-trod-over reasons related to recruiting, differences in practice time, etc. Garrett is not especially charismatic and relied on a really complex NFL offense. Does this sound like someone who would do well in college? I think not.
2) Garrett coached for a team that spared no expense and was willing to aggressively invest in just about everything. Does this sound like Stanford to you?
3) Garrett had a well-earned reputation as an incompetent game manager. Again, does this sound like a good idea?
4) No one has been interested in paying Garrett to coach for them since 2020. Does this sound like a highly-valued coach by the market?
For what it's worth, if you care about Ravens fans wanting Roman out, then you should also care about Cowboys fans' absolute befuddlement about this idea on Twitter.
I think you are extremely wrong and it mainly boils down to your misapprehension with regard to #1. NFL head coaches translate spectacularly to college, or at least as well as any cohort of candidate. There of course will always be inherent uncertainty, fit issues, season of life issues, and so forth. No such thing as a sure thing. But somebody like Jason Garrett is MUCH more of a sure thing than somebody like Troy Taylor or Brent Brennan, and the most basic reason is that you are wrong NFL doesn't translate to college.
Those who can even get to mediocre in the men's league find it child's play to exceed their NFL success in college. For every Lovie Smith who fails in college, there's Pete Carroll, Jim Mora, Chip Kelly, Matt Rhule, Butch Davis, Steve Spurrier, and Rich Brooks who find college much easier. Because it is. When you have the street cred of having been an NFL head coach, the cachet you have in living rooms on the recruiting trail is indescribable. The rolodex (and name recognition that draws people to you) you can leverage in building a staff far outstrips your competitors. The egos you have to deal with seem quaint. The game day and Xs and Os machinations are like Neo operating in the matrix.
Those who think a coach's level of success in the NFL even comes close to approximating his upside in college don't understand the difference between the men's league and college. Look at Carroll. Or Saban. Or Mora. Or....ummm just about everybody.
Urban Meyer, Bobby Petrino, Kliff Kingsbury, Bill O'Brien, Lane Kiffin...
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - yvonne - 12-08-2022
(12-08-2022, 11:03 AM)BobK Wrote: If you’re really good remember former LBer Marty Brill. My hint and I’m excited
No it’s not Marty but my hint
Is that the guy on the real estate signs in supermarkets?
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - BostonCard - 12-08-2022
(12-08-2022, 12:56 PM)SamuelMcF Wrote:(12-08-2022, 12:44 PM)msqueri Wrote:(12-08-2022, 11:42 AM)washingtonismoney Wrote:(12-08-2022, 11:26 AM)bl82 Wrote: Care to elaborate?
1) I think NFL coaches have big translation issues in college, for a variety of well-trod-over reasons related to recruiting, differences in practice time, etc. Garrett is not especially charismatic and relied on a really complex NFL offense. Does this sound like someone who would do well in college? I think not.
2) Garrett coached for a team that spared no expense and was willing to aggressively invest in just about everything. Does this sound like Stanford to you?
3) Garrett had a well-earned reputation as an incompetent game manager. Again, does this sound like a good idea?
4) No one has been interested in paying Garrett to coach for them since 2020. Does this sound like a highly-valued coach by the market?
For what it's worth, if you care about Ravens fans wanting Roman out, then you should also care about Cowboys fans' absolute befuddlement about this idea on Twitter.
I think you are extremely wrong and it mainly boils down to your misapprehension with regard to #1. NFL head coaches translate spectacularly to college, or at least as well as any cohort of candidate. There of course will always be inherent uncertainty, fit issues, season of life issues, and so forth. No such thing as a sure thing. But somebody like Jason Garrett is MUCH more of a sure thing than somebody like Troy Taylor or Brent Brennan, and the most basic reason is that you are wrong NFL doesn't translate to college.
Those who can even get to mediocre in the men's league find it child's play to exceed their NFL success in college. For every Lovie Smith who fails in college, there's Pete Carroll, Jim Mora, Chip Kelly, Matt Rhule, Butch Davis, Steve Spurrier, and Rich Brooks who find college much easier. Because it is. When you have the street cred of having been an NFL head coach, the cachet you have in living rooms on the recruiting trail is indescribable. The rolodex (and name recognition that draws people to you) you can leverage in building a staff far outstrips your competitors. The egos you have to deal with seem quaint. The game day and Xs and Os machinations are like Neo operating in the matrix.
Those who think a coach's level of success in the NFL even comes close to approximating his upside in college don't understand the difference between the men's league and college. Look at Carroll. Or Saban. Or Mora. Or....ummm just about everybody.
Urban Meyer, Bobby Petrino, Kliff Kingsbury, Bill O'Brien, Lane Kiffin...
Does Kiffin help or hurt the case?
But yeah, broadly speaking, failure in the NFL is basically not at all predictive of failure in college, and as you and Matt note, there are lots of cases of failed NFL head coaches doing well in college and successful collegiate head coaches floundering when they get to the NFL.
If the two “finalists” are accurate, I’d be happy with either.
BC
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - TinderForMidgets - 12-08-2022
We are talking ourselves into Jason Garrett.
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - msqueri - 12-08-2022
(12-08-2022, 01:44 PM)TinderForMidgets Wrote: We are talking ourselves into Jason Garrett.
Check out my November 29 post, page 11 of this thread. I was pining for him from the start and would be genuinely thrilled. Having him a top five candidate was not for lack of ambition, analysis, or considering other candidates.
RE: Coaching Search: My proposed approach and wish list - BostonCard - 12-08-2022
(11-29-2022, 08:22 AM)msqueri Wrote: ...
4) Jason Garrett: Big, unlikely shot but he's a very good coach who might be a fit
...
11) Troy Taylor: Transcendently spectacular track record at Sacramento State and our chance at a Jim Harbaugh/Art Briles kind of hire but FCS to Power Five is a gigantic leap that aside from Harbaugh doesn't have much track record of working for big turnaround projects like this
Well done!
BC
RE: Coaching Search: My proposed approach and wish list - Jamesy - 12-08-2022
(12-08-2022, 02:26 PM)BostonCard Wrote:msqueri is secretly on Bernard's super secret search committee.(11-29-2022, 08:22 AM)msqueri Wrote: ...
4) Jason Garrett: Big, unlikely shot but he's a very good coach who might be a fit
...
11) Troy Taylor: Transcendently spectacular track record at Sacramento State and our chance at a Jim Harbaugh/Art Briles kind of hire but FCS to Power Five is a gigantic leap that aside from Harbaugh doesn't have much track record of working for big turnaround projects like this
Well done!
BC
RE: Coaching Search: My proposed approach and wish list - TinderForMidgets - 12-08-2022
(12-08-2022, 02:39 PM)Jamesy Wrote:(12-08-2022, 02:26 PM)BostonCard Wrote:msqueri is secretly on Bernard's super secret search committee.(11-29-2022, 08:22 AM)msqueri Wrote: ...
4) Jason Garrett: Big, unlikely shot but he's a very good coach who might be a fit
...
11) Troy Taylor: Transcendently spectacular track record at Sacramento State and our chance at a Jim Harbaugh/Art Briles kind of hire but FCS to Power Five is a gigantic leap that aside from Harbaugh doesn't have much track record of working for big turnaround projects like this
Well done!
BC
msqueri is a legend. Would love to have him on the search committee.
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - BostonCard - 12-08-2022
I would add that in 10 years as head coach at Dallas, he had an 85-69 record (.559), and wound up winning the NFC East three times. He had only one losing season (4-12 in 2015, a year when Tony Romo and Dez Bryant were injured during the season), and a bunch of 8-8 years (2011-2013, 2019). He was NFL coach of the year in 2016.
So, while he didn't set the NFL on fire or bring multiple Super Bowl's to Dallas, he wasn't a failure, either.
BC
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - TinderForMidgets - 12-08-2022
(12-08-2022, 02:50 PM)BostonCard Wrote: I would add that in 10 years as head coach at Dallas, he had an 85-69 record (.559), and wound up winning the NFC East three times. He had only one losing season (4-12 in 2015, a year when Tony Romo and Dez Bryant were injured during the season), and a bunch of 8-8 years (2011-2013, 2019). He was NFL coach of the year in 2016.
So, while he didn't set the NFL on fire or bring multiple Super Bowl's to Dallas, he wasn't a failure, either.
BC
I mean Shaw also had crazy accomplishments but we know it wasn't mainly because he was a good coach. The national media is saying the same about Jason Garrett. What's led us to believe otherwise?
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - MarinCard - 12-08-2022
Garrett doesn't immediately excite me, but as others have pointed out, records at the NFL level don't necessarily correlate with success at the college level. The most prominent example: Saban has a losing record as a head coach in the league, and he's created the greatest college dynasty perhaps ever.
If it's his job to lose, I hope he's asking Muir and the administration for assurances of movement on the issues Shaw enumerated in his press conference after BYU, as well as on facilities and other program support (no more need for post-practice Chipotle, for instance).
It's easy to make the parallels to Pete Carroll, but nevertheless, it's wild to go back and look at how the LA press reacted to his hire at the time, Plaschke in particular:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2000-dec-16-sp-904-story.html
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2000-dec-16-sp-901-story.html
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - TinderForMidgets - 12-08-2022
Maybe Jason Garrett can bring along his brother who has a ton of college football experience.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Garrett_(American_football)
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - needle - 12-08-2022
[tweet]https://twitter.com/jonmachota/status/1600956821929336856[/tweet]
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - CardinalSagehen - 12-08-2022
It seems to me like the leak of the two finalists by "sources" could be driven by Muir himself. He might want to gauge the reaction and/or make the winner look like he emerged from a horse race with many viable candidates. This leak strikes me as intentional.
I don't know if it indicates Garrett or Taylor. If you were selecting Taylor, a relative unknown, you'd want him to appear like he beat out some big names. On the other hand, it might be difficult to select Taylor after dangling a splashier name like Garrett. Hard to say.
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - TinderForMidgets - 12-08-2022
[Tweet]
https://twitter.com/StanfordSports/status/1600976214167986176
[/Tweet]
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - Chupacabra - 12-08-2022
JG would be a great hire, even a coup. The Cowboys head job is unique and he was pretty successful (well above .500), held the job for a long time. And that’s the one NFL job that requires more “booster“ navigational skill than most colleges.
Very personable and should be a good line into recruiting the South, especially Texas.
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - 81alum - 12-08-2022
I know nothing really about these candidates other than what I have read on this board. I am interested in Garrett's background as a Princeton quarterback. He must know something about balancing academics and athletics.
The other really stupendous pro-to-Stanford coach was, of course, Bill Walsh. I do think having a pro connection works well for our kind of players, not just because they may want to be pros, but because they are mature and want (deserve?) to be treated with the same level of professionalism.
Taylor does sound quite interesting, and has the profile that I thought would be most likely to work here at the start of the search. I am mildly encouraged by these two.
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - washingtonismoney - 12-08-2022
(12-08-2022, 12:44 PM)msqueri Wrote: I think you are extremely wrong and it mainly boils down to your misapprehension with regard to #1. NFL head coaches translate spectacularly to college, or at least as well as any cohort of candidate. There of course will always be inherent uncertainty, fit issues, season of life issues, and so forth. No such thing as a sure thing. But somebody like Jason Garrett is MUCH more of a sure thing than somebody like Troy Taylor or Brent Brennan, and the most basic reason is that you are wrong NFL doesn't translate to college.
Those who can even get to mediocre in the men's league find it child's play to exceed their NFL success in college. For every Lovie Smith who fails in college, there's Pete Carroll, Jim Mora, Chip Kelly, Matt Rhule, Butch Davis, Steve Spurrier, and Rich Brooks who find college much easier. Because it is. When you have the street cred of having been an NFL head coach, the cachet you have in living rooms on the recruiting trail is indescribable. The rolodex (and name recognition that draws people to you) you can leverage in building a staff far outstrips your competitors. The egos you have to deal with seem quaint. The game day and Xs and Os machinations are like Neo operating in the matrix.
Those who think a coach's level of success in the NFL even comes close to approximating his upside in college don't understand the difference between the men's league and college. Look at Carroll. Or Saban. Or Mora. Or....ummm just about everybody.
Well, I think it's you who are wrong, but it's worth breaking down the reasons why. It's worth noting that most of the pro-Garrett arguments on this thread are premised on a very strong version of NFL superiority -- that you can take a pretty average NFL coach (which is what Garrett's .556 record and mediocre offensive coordination jobs say he is) and that person will easily exceed their college success. But that's unsupported by either the empirical record or indeed basic logic.
Let's take the empirical record. Take Jim Mora, the last example on your list. Another average NFL coach -- .476 record. In college? His .605 record as a Bruin is barely above UCLA's historical .579 winning percentage. Or take Pete Carroll, the example that's third-to-last on your list. His college record barely needs elucidating, but then again he's .593 as an NFL coach with a Super Bowl ring. I think the most natural reading of the evidence is that a pretty good NFL coach turned out to be an all-timer college football coach (albeit nearly twenty years ago. Pin that point.)
"That's exactly my point," an NFL supremacist might say. Well, it's also exactly mine. Insofar as Pete's a good, not great, NFL coach, it's for specific reasons: he's pretty good defensive coach with some antediluvian offensive tastes. But NFL rewards specific qualities and doesn't some specific others. Would you say, in general, NFL coaches have sparkling personalities? The answer, of course, is no. Pete is a charismatic guy -- a quality college tends to handsomely reward. And he also hires very well.
Not an accident at least four head coaches -- one of whom won a CFB national championship -- emerged from his USC staff. But that's the benefit of going from the NFL (generally a parity-driven culture, with some semi-exceptions. Again, pin this point) to one of the primo college jobs. Carroll went from a culture that doesn't necessarily reward all of his strengths to a spot that lavishly prizes his strengths.
It's also worth noting that Carroll -- the example literally everyone brings up first when discussing pro-to-college transition -- is like a decade-old example at this point. Anyone who watches a lot of football on both Saturdays and Sundays these days is struck by one thing: these offenses run by Pat Mahomes and Lamar Jackson these days...look awfully similar to the offenses we were watching in college in 2017. It's not a secret to anyone seriously reading press coverage or following the sport that intellectual ideas travel from college to the pros -- not the opposite direction. Of course, pros have their advantages and rigors, but it's hardly the case that the big braniacs in the NFL are running rings around the college yokels. Just the opposite.
So let's turn from the empirical record -- considerably more mixed than you present -- to basic logic. It doesn't follow that just because an arbitrary group is good at something that individual members are good at something. A venture capitalist might be pretty successful at investing in "college dropouts" before writing a big check on this Elizabeth Holmes character.
Garrett is no Elizabeth Holmes, of course, but it's nevertheless worth considering Jason Garrett, specifically, and why Jason Garrett, specifically, would be good at coaching specifically, Stanford University. How did Jason Garrett get jobs? Well, in Dallas, he rather famously knew Jerry Jones through his dad. With the New York Giants, the owner foisted him upon a new coach. (The coach wanted to fire Jason Garrett four games into his first season, reportedly. Perhaps not coincidentally the Giants' QB been slightly-above-average when not under Garrett's care and below-average when he is.) To be fair, managing upwards might be a helpful quality in getting transfer, NIL, etc., rules changed.
Then it's worth considering the specific situations Garrett's moving from. He's not an NFL coach; he's a former Dallas Cowboys coach. He won't be a college coach; he'll be a Stanford University coach. That is, Garrett will be moving from possibly the richest and most aggressive sports organization in the planet to Stanford. Under Jones, Garrett benefitted from an owner who's willing to pay $3 million a year for an assistant. Garrett used that generosity to hire, so far as I can tell, exactly one future head coach -- Derek Dooley. At Stanford, with fewer resources, will he be able to hire better or worse?
In the NFL, Garrett enjoyed a reputation of predictable offenses -- especially an inability to get the plays in on-time -- poor special teams, poor game-management. Most of these qualities annoyed Stanford fans about Shaw. (Well, except for special teams.)
It's also fair to question his cachet. I concede some recruits may find the mere fact of an NFL resume to be appealing. But reputations are two-edged. A Texan recruit has likely heard for most of his boyhood that Garrett is a brobdingnagian moron. Garrett doesn't enjoy a strong reputation among Cowboys fans (or really any other fans).
So even if you have strongly-held NFL supremacist views, you have to concede that there's variation. And once you concede that point, there's little reason to believe Jason Garrett, specifically, is a wonderful fit for Stanford or the college game generally. I think the most likely outcome of a Garrett hire is a Jerod Haase-type tenure.
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - CowboyIndian - 12-08-2022
(12-08-2022, 01:06 PM)yvonne Wrote:(12-08-2022, 11:03 AM)BobK Wrote: If you’re really good remember former LBer Marty Brill. My hint and I’m excited
No it’s not Marty but my hint
Is that the guy on the real estate signs in supermarkets?
Maybe. He's been a real estate developer on the Peninsula for a long time. Great MLB and good guy.
RE: Football Coaching Search [merged thread] - Farm93 - 12-08-2022
I believe your slightly above average pro coach will struggle at Stanford.
They can't just draft and sign players.
They can't browse the free agent talent pool and bring in the types that work for you.
They can't count on almost every team having roughly similar talent.
And not all the college players will sacrifice everything to "make" the roster.
The admissions challenges, the academic demands and the lack of community/region excitement are all tough too.
However, a big coach name from Texas or The South could allow Stanford to recruit better in some parts of Texas or The South. A high profile coach likely would improve likelihood that the players get more Instagram followers or Youtube subscribers that might translate into NIL money. FWIW$$
So while I worry about a pro-coach accepting the idea of coaching a group of real student-athletes in front of 15,000 fans, I do think a big name pro-coach could offer a bit of a boost that Stanford and the Pac-12/10 needs right now.
Oh, and a big enough name just might boost Stanford's appeal to a certain conference with a football championship game in IN.