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Re: Shaw on Chryst... - teejers1 - 10-27-2017

On recollection, Chryst threw one good ball last night - the semi-long "corner" route to the sideline.  Other than that, the throws were somewhere in the range of bad to hideous (especially if you take into account stare down, tardiness, throwing into covered receivers, etc.). 

On the play of the game - the fourth down conversion to Smith - the defender COULD NOT BELIEVE the play.  For one thing, he had perfect coverage on Smith (running stride for stride and directly between Smith and Chryst).  So I imagine him thinking:  "no way is the ball passed here" or even "I hope the ball is passed here."  Second, the ball was thrown behind the moving target, just enough so that Smith could adjust, but the defender (looking back) could not.  And he still almost knocked it away.  All I can say for Chryst on that play was that it's fourth down so you have to throw it 10 yards down the field somewhere - and he obviously put it in a "catchable" spot.  But really, the result was incredibly lucky for Stanford.

I just hope we see something different next weekend on O.  I'm assuming Love will remain out.  We have a legendarily complex playbook - it would be good to see some looks/plays we haven't seen to date.  [I mean, here are the plays that recur pretty frequently:  the pitch back to the RB b/w the tackles; the simple out pattern to a receiver; the traditional snap and straight handoff to the RB; read option runs; the deep sideline pass against one-on-one coverage; and the fade/jump ball near the end zone.  I know we must do a lot of other things, but I'm having a hard time describing the other types of plays.  Respectfully, we'll need to do more/better to be competitive in Pullman].

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - CTcard - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 01:57 PM)Viking_Guy link Wrote:I may have to just listen to Husak et al from now on - they didn't seem hesitant to point out that Chryst wasn't making progressions, that his throws were late (and as a result often behind receivers), and that he should have been intercepted several more times - that he was making the same read on a particular play/route over and over again and throwing it into the same coverage.

That is basically identical to what Dave Fleming was saying on the TV broadcast.

Most of it was fairly obvious, particularly the throwing late part. Chryst looked decidedly spooked to me.


Quote:And that fourth and 10 play was pretty much all Kaden Smith going over the DB and snatching the ball away. 

The pass itself was good on that play. It was put in just about the only place Smith could have caught.

The bad things about the play were that Smith was very well covered and there may have been a better target (haven't rewatched the tape, and don't know if there is a camera angle that shows the field). In addition, based upon a limited memory, that throw again may have been late.

If in fact there wasn't anybody open, then throwing to Smith would have been a good choice. He had a big height advantage and thus could possibly make the catch despite being covered.


And the lob to JJAW was a good throw - as was at least the first of the next three. In fact, in retrospect I wonder if we shouldn't have tried variations on that much more often. Given the nature of the throw and the read, it avoids a lot of the stuff that seemed to be throwing Chryst off; and we seem to be able to complete that kind of pass to a good percentage. No reason it can't be thrown on a third and 5 or so.


Re: Shaw on Chryst... - Snorlax94 - 10-27-2017

Ok I am going to be a little bit of a contrarian. I am not going so far as to say Chryst staying in was the right call, but here are my reasons why it MIGHT have been the right call.

1. The number one reason why Stanford sticks with the qb who knows the playbook best is to get us into the right play. On MANY occasions last night, we were in great shape with run plays that Bryce would have turned into touchdowns. Assuming Bryce gets better soon, the most important thing a qb can do for us is to be the on-field game manager. Bryce is great but if the defense is run blitzing right into where the play is called, we need whoever can best make that read, then put us into the best play to exploit that read.

2. There was a point in the game where it looked like Shaw should pull Chryst, then the broadcast showed Chryst and Shaw talking on the sideline, and Chryst was gesticulating and it looked like he was describing what he was seeing, and Shaw is taking it in. Then Shaw keeps Chryst in. I don’t know what they said, but maybe Chryst is seeing defenses and tricks that weren’t on tape and Shaw didn’t prepare either qb for, and Shaw needs to weigh the fact that if there are surprises out there, Costello might do worse. As bad as Oregon State is, their interim head coach played like 5 years in the NFL in the defensive secondary. That is a pretty exceptional background. And did you see the Oregon State coach pumping up his players on the sideline? Think Harbaugh, except with a defensive secondary background instead of qbing.

3. I wonder if a lot of it was that Coach Shaw blamed himself because the team clearly didn’t come ready. The Beavs had a great gameplan to stop a Bryce-less Stanford, they executed it really well, and they played with great passion. I kind of hope part of the reason Chryst sucked so much was because he just spent the last 2 weeks actually preparing for Washington and Wazoo. Looking too far ahead is a terrible, terrible mistake for a head coach... if you lose, which we did not.

Wazoo and UDub will shed more light on these, for better or for worse.




Re: Shaw on Chryst... - martyup - 10-27-2017

Coming into this game, I was heartened by the fact that we appeared to have two good QBs.  I felt that if one QB got hurt or had a bad day, the other could come in and do a good job. 

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - stupac2 - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 02:25 PM)Snorlax94 link Wrote:2. There was a point in the game where it looked like Shaw should pull Chryst, then the broadcast showed Chryst and Shaw talking on the sideline, and Chryst was gesticulating and it looked like he was describing what he was seeing, and Shaw is taking it in. Then Shaw keeps Chryst in. I don’t know what they said, but maybe Chryst is seeing defenses and tricks that weren’t on tape and Shaw didn’t prepare either qb for, and Shaw needs to weigh the fact that if there are surprises out there, Costello might do worse. As bad as Oregon State is, their interim head coach played like 5 years in the NFL in the defensive secondary. That is a pretty exceptional background. And did you see the Oregon State coach pumping up his players on the sideline? Think Harbaugh, except with a defensive secondary background instead of qbing.

I wonder if we're overlooking this to some extent. ORST still had the worse team talent-wise, but that was functionally the second game of the year for them, since it seems like everything has changed after Anderson quit. I wonder if that caught the team off-guard a bit, like they weren't seeing what they expected.

That said, it shouldn't matter all that much. We had the better athletes and it should have showed, but didn't.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - BrevinsBest - 10-27-2017

I think we can all (mostly) agree that Costello is at least equally as good as Chryst. If that is the case, why wouldn't Shaw play Costello? If nothing else, it puts the team in better shape for '18.

Two things struck me as a bit odd, and I believe both may have been mentioned here. On the TV broadcast, Flem made it seem as though he expected Costello to come in on the third or fourth series of the game. Did he just assume this or did he speak to someone beforehand? Secondly, when asked during the halftime interview if Costello was going to play in the second half, Shaw had a weird smirk on his face.

It all just seems so weird.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - CTcard - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 03:12 PM)stupac2 link Wrote:that was functionally the second game of the year for them, since it seems like everything has changed after Anderson quit.

Outside of our performance, the comings and goings at OSU are rather fascinating.

This was a truly horrible team under Andersen. It's not just that they were losing, but they were not competitive against any FBS team.
Then Andersen left - quit? got fired? - nobody seems to quite know.

After departing, the players have mostly sounded supportive of him, some extremely loyal.
Yet, after he left this has become a completely different team. They may not exactly be good yet, but clearly competitive. Clearly energetic. And not excessively weak/slow in a way you would expect a team with such a record.

And Cory Hall comes in having barely coached, only two years as a DB coach at the college level - one at Weber State and one at OSU. The coordinators and more experienced coaches were notably passed over for this guy. And he comes in yelling and jumping up an down like a mad man. That sounds like a recipe for disaster, at least among the coaching staff. The senior guys were already outraged about Andersen's comments ("I hired the wrong guys" - but with profanity).

But then suddenly the results seem like a near miracle, at least to the extent one can excuse continuing to lose and still call it a miracle. But no doubt it looks like a completely different team.
And the change initially occurred over the course of a single week.


In a way its not completely surprising. That kind of energy pumps life into a depressed, moribund program. Whether it has substance and is sustainable is something I will be very interested to watch.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - MustardtheBallCarrier - 10-27-2017

One set of downs before half nicely captured the essence of Keller's night (and really the entire night offensively).  First down run well-blocked by the line.  RB (Scarlett I think) picks the wrong hole and goes down on an ankle tackle and falls forward for 2 yards.  2nd and 8.  Keller drops back to pass with all day to throw.  Eyes never leave his initial target, focused lake a laser beam on TE over the middle (Schultz I believe) 4 yards downfield.  Throws late into double coverage as entire stadium and TV-viewing public know where he is going with the ball.  Defenders converge and ball should have been intercepted.  3rd and 8.  Keller drops back again.  He has Irwin 1 v 1 down the right sideline.  Throws the ball several yards out of bounds giving Irwin no chance to make the catch.  Punt.

A "how NOT to" video.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - Spiny_Norman - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 03:12 PM)stupac2 link Wrote:That said, it shouldn't matter all that much. We had the better athletes and it should have showed.

Said every U.SC fan - October 7, 2007

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - ChicagoCard - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 04:46 PM)Spiny_Norman link Wrote:[quote author=stupac2 link=topic=17799.msg208741#msg208741 date=1509142332]
That said, it shouldn't matter all that much. We had the better athletes and it should have showed.

Said every U.SC fan - October 7, 2007
[/quote]

They say that constantly, every week.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - Goose - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 04:46 PM)Spiny_Norman link Wrote:[quote author=stupac2 link=topic=17799.msg208741#msg208741 date=1509142332]
That said, it shouldn't matter all that much. We had the better athletes and it should have showed.

Said every U.SC fan - October 7, 2007
[/quote]
And previously on November 11, 1967, including OJ Simpson. Stuff happens.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - SpokaneLee - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 03:42 PM)RobinsonsHeave link Wrote:Secondly, when asked during the halftime interview if Costello was going to play in the second half, Shaw had a weird smirk on his face.

When you see that David Shaw “weird smirk”, don’t you just want to knock his block off?



Re: Shaw on Chryst... - stupac2 - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 05:17 PM)SpokaneLee link Wrote:[quote author=RobinsonsHeave link=topic=17799.msg208745#msg208745 date=1509144142] Secondly, when asked during the halftime interview if Costello was going to play in the second half, Shaw had a weird smirk on his face.

When you see that David Shaw “weird smirk”, don’t you just want to knock his block off?
[/quote]

No...

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - ChicagoCard - 10-27-2017

I don't know whether that was an attempt at humor, but Shaw's sideline interview has been referenced several times. What's he supposed to do exactly? I mean, when the reporter asks a question he doesn't want to and shouldn't answer. Maybe be more like Bo Pelini and say, what kind of horse's ass question is that?!

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - ATLCard - 10-27-2017

I've been frustrated by Shaw's QB decisions before, including earlier this year.  But I always understood the thought process, even if I didn't like the decision (and of course I respect the program Shaw has built).  Last night was different; perplexing; bizarre. The last time I was this perplexed about a QB decision it turns out the QB was dating the coach's daughter.

Maybe this is Nunes at Washington again, but I don't think so.  I worry about Costello because the mindset of many competitive players won't allow them to sit behind that kind of performance -- if they won't get a chance in those circumstances they conclude they never will get a fair shot.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - winflop - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 09:40 AM)Goose link Wrote:I think that we didn't see Costello (assuming there is no injury/other reason) because Shaw was quite aware that if he pulled Chryst, it was going to be real hard to trot him out as the starter against WSU.

I'd be OK with him not being the starter against WSU - or any other opponent for that matter. I've seen enough to know that Stanford will NEVER win a conference title with Chryst as the starter. Costello may not be superior at this point, but his ceiling is far higher and he has an extra year to get there.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - Goose - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 08:31 PM)winflop link Wrote:[quote author=Goose link=topic=17799.msg208672#msg208672 date=1509122446]
I think that we didn't see Costello (assuming there is no injury/other reason) because Shaw was quite aware that if he pulled Chryst, it was going to be real hard to trot him out as the starter against WSU.

I'd be OK with him not being the starter against WSU - or any other opponent for that matter. I've seen enough to know that Stanford will NEVER win a conference title with Chryst as the starter. Costello may not be superior at this point, but his ceiling is far higher and he has an extra year to get there.
[/quote]
Fine, you may be correct. However, Shaw wasn't ready to make that choice last night. He wanted to keep his options open. I am not sure he is ready even now to replace Chryst. We will see.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - BostonCard - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 08:31 PM)winflop link Wrote:[quote author=Goose link=topic=17799.msg208672#msg208672 date=1509122446]
I think that we didn't see Costello (assuming there is no injury/other reason) because Shaw was quite aware that if he pulled Chryst, it was going to be real hard to trot him out as the starter against WSU.

I'd be OK with him not being the starter against WSU - or any other opponent for that matter. I've seen enough to know that Stanford will NEVER win a conference title with Chryst as the starter. Costello may not be superior at this point, but his ceiling is far higher and he has an extra year to get there.
[/quote]

I'm not sure that we can say this.  Obviously we don't know where their respective ceilings are, but inasmuch as demonstrated best game, Chryst's best game (Oregon, where he went 15/21 (71%), 181 yards, 8.6 ypa, 3 TD, 1 INT (not his fault), for a PER of 181) was better than Costello's best game (UCLA, where he went 13/19 (68%), 123 yards, 6.5 ypa, 2 TD, 0 INT for a PER of 158).  Now, I don't think the game against UCLA is as good as it gets for Costello, and I think it is reasonable to assume that with more starting experience 8+ YPA/170+ PER games should be possible, so his ceiling may well be as high or higher than Chryst's (who, as everyone points out, has more time in the program, and a bunch more starts than Costello under his belt).  But I think the problem with Chryst is not that he has a limited ceiling; it's that he very frequently plays below it.  So, I am not convinced that Costello's ceiling is higher.

That being said, I don't want a player's ceiling to be the determining factor here.  With an all-American talent in Bryce Love, the QB doesn't need to have a high ceiling.  He just needs to play well enough.  Give the ball to Love, hit a few third down throws when needed, and every once in a while beat the defense so they have to respect the passing game and think twice about stacking the box.  As WIM put it, a Sean Mannion at QB wins 10 games for us.  But what we can't have is a guy who plays as badly as Chryst has played multiple times a season, because that will lose us games.

BC

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - ATLCard - 10-28-2017

I think that's right, and why I am perplexed.  Shaw probably does believe that the more experienced "good Chryst" is necessary to beat UW/WSU/ND and maybe he has been managing the season for that.  However "bad Chryst" has us at 6-2 (and absolutely should be at 5-3) where we have seen enough of Costello at this point to expect that we would be 7-1 if he had been starting.  So the trade-off has turned out to be an extra loss (and extreme luck not to have 2 extra losses) to maybe have a better chance at the brutal games down the homestretch.

But unfortunately watching "bad Chryst" at OSU in the 8th game of the season (13th start) you have to expect that 'bad Chryst' is a part of Chryst and will show up again.  If Shaw has made his final decision that Chryst is the starter for the season no matter what, I actually think it would be better for Chryst's confidence at this point if the decision was "Chryst is my leader and team captain, he is the starter this year.  However I have an ace reliever who has shown his stuff and if my starter is having a bad night I'm going to go to the bullpen".  Chryst's confidence would probably be better with that setup and getting pulled in the second quarter of what turned out to be a winning blowout Thursday, than what actually happened.

I suspect that in light of the OSU game even Shaw understands in his heart that it would have been better to switch to Costello earlier in the season, but he will never admit that.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - ChicagoCard - 10-28-2017

(10-28-2017, 07:34 AM)ATLcard link Wrote:However "bad Chryst" has us at 6-2

Really, Chryst has Stanford at 4-2 and Costello 2-0.