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Re: Richard Sherman - OutsiderFan - 03-10-2018

OK, it's time for some thread drift into more general HOF discussion...

Patrick Willis is probably acknowledged to be a HOF LB, given he was a 7-time Pro Bowl and 5-time All-Pro selection in an 8-year career he voluntarily cut short.  But then you look at Navorro Bowman.

Bowman was arguably better at the peak of his career than Willis. Right at that peak he suffered the most gruesome knee injury in the 2013 season NFC CG, that cost him the entire 2014 season.  Yet he returned in 2015 to make his third All-Pro team and 5th Pro Bowl on a lousy team.  Then he too tore his achilles in 2016.  He came back in 2017 but didn't return to his previous HOF-level production.

So on the one hand, you have a guy in Willis who though he suffered some injuries, never had a catastrophic one that cost him most of or all of a season, and was the best at his position for most of the years he played.  Then you have Bowman, who arguably was a better player at his peak, overcame a catastrophic knee injury at his peak and returned to HOF level, only to suffer another major injury that when he returned from, kept him from being that HOF level again.

Richard Sherman might be somewhat of an analog to Bowman.  Though he has one less season than Bowman, he too is a 5-time Pro Bowl and 3-time All-Pro selection before suffering a catastrophic achilles injury.  I would argue Bowman and Sherman were equivalently excellent players at their positions. Sherman played in two Super Bowls and won one.  Bowman played in three NFC CGs, and was 0-1 in the Super Bowl.  Of course, Sherman, like another guy mentioned below, has made quite a house hold name for himself.  That will go a long way in getting him to the HOF, IMO.

So the net of this is Patrick Willis is assumed to be a HOF player by most observers, but Bowman may have been better overall.  Willis gets some knocks for only playing 8 seasons, but Bowman was only great for 7 until the achilles injury.  Then Sherman has a very similar career to Bowman, but was probably more influential on the game. 

The HOF is suppose to be for the elite of the elite, not just players who were great, but where do you draw the line?  To me, Bryant Young was a HOF DL. He also suffered a devastating injury that made him a lesser player after his return, though he still managed a few Pro Bowls.  Of course, he was also a quiet guy who didn't create a big name for himself, like say Warren Sapp and Sherman.  He just did his job in the trenches of NFL games, equally good against pass and run, and he did it for 14 years. But you never hear Young mentioned as a possible HOF player.

Re: Richard Sherman - Mick - 03-10-2018

(03-10-2018, 11:45 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:  OK, it's time for some thread drift into more general HOF discussion...

Patrick Willis is probably acknowledged to be a HOF LB, given he was a 7-time Pro Bowl and 5-time All-Pro selection in an 8-year career he voluntarily cut short.  But then you look at Navorro Bowman.

Bowman was arguably better at the peak of his career than Willis. Right at that peak he suffered the most gruesome knee injury in the 2013 season NFC CG, that cost him the entire 2014 season.  Yet he returned in 2015 to make his third All-Pro team and 5th Pro Bowl on a lousy team.  Then he too tore his achilles in 2016.  He came back in 2017 but didn't return to his previous HOF-level production.

So on the one hand, you have a guy in Willis who though he suffered some injuries, never had a catastrophic one that cost him most of or all of a season, and was the best at his position for most of the years he played.  Then you have Bowman, who arguably was a better player at his peak, overcame a catastrophic knee injury at his peak and returned to HOF level, only to suffer another major injury that when he returned from, kept him from being that HOF level again.

Richard Sherman might be somewhat of an analog to Bowman.  Though he has one less season than Bowman, he too is a 5-time Pro Bowl and 3-time All-Pro selection before suffering a catastrophic achilles injury.  I would argue Bowman and Sherman were equivalently excellent players at their positions. Sherman played in two Super Bowls and won one.  Bowman played in three NFC CGs, and was 0-1 in the Super Bowl.  Of course, Sherman, like another guy mentioned below, has made quite a house hold name for himself.  That will go a long way in getting him to the HOF, IMO.

So the net of this is Patrick Willis is assumed to be a HOF player by most observers, but Bowman may have been better overall.  Willis gets some knocks for only playing 8 seasons, but Bowman was only great for 7 until the achilles injury.  Then Sherman has a very similar career to Bowman, but was probably more influential on the game. 

The HOF is suppose to be for the elite of the elite, not just players who were great, but where do you draw the line?  To me, Bryant Young was a HOF DL. He also suffered a devastating injury that made him a lesser player after his return, though he still managed a few Pro Bowls.  Of course, he was also a quiet guy who didn't create a big name for himself, like say Warren Sapp and Sherman.  He just did his job in the trenches of NFL games, equally good against pass and run, and he did it for 14 years. But you never hear Young mentioned as a possible HOF player.

Justin Smith.  Five time Pro Bowl, First team All-Pro just once.  Three interceptions, 16 forced fumbles, 10 recovered fumbles, 87 sacks, 613 tackles.  Played 221 games, started in 217.  At DE then RDT.

Re: Richard Sherman - DC 86 - 03-10-2018

(03-10-2018, 11:45 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:  To me, Bryant Young was a HOF DL. He also suffered a devastating injury that made him a lesser player after his return, though he still managed a few Pro Bowls.  Of course, he was also a quiet guy who didn't create a big name for himself, like say Warren Sapp and Sherman.  He just did his job in the trenches of NFL games, equally good against pass and run, and he did it for 14 years. But you never hear Young mentioned as a possible HOF player.

Bryant Young's lack of HoF buzz is indeed perplexing. He was first team all-NFL only once, but second team three times and most importantly was on the 90s all-decade team. The correlation between being on an all-decade team and being a hall of famer (or at minimum a finalist) is extremely high, yet BY has never even been a HoF semifinalist (which is a list of 25 players each year). He was a Super Bowl champion, a defensive rookie of the year, a comeback player of the year and played on a high profile team while having a very good relationship with the media. It is ultimately a subjective process with a relatively small group of media members voting.

Re: Richard Sherman - OutsiderFan - 03-10-2018

(03-10-2018, 12:00 PM)Mick link Wrote:  Justin Smith.  Five time Pro Bowl, First team All-Pro just once.  Three interceptions, 16 forced fumbles, 10 recovered fumbles, 87 sacks, 613 tackles.  Played 221 games, started in 217.  At DE then RDT.

Yes, Justin Smith was one of the best.  That said, he wasn't HOF caliber until he went to the Niners, was he? Very, good, and even great player for a little while, but not a Hall of Fame player, IMO.

Guys not in Hall of Fame or obvious first ballot, who should be, IMO:

- RB Roger Craig
- DT Bryant Young
- S John Lynch
- G Alan Faneca



Re: Richard Sherman - Mick - 03-10-2018

(03-10-2018, 12:37 PM)DC 86 link Wrote:  [quote author=OutsiderFan link=topic=18842.msg225701#msg225701 date=1520707539]
To me, Bryant Young was a HOF DL. He also suffered a devastating injury that made him a lesser player after his return, though he still managed a few Pro Bowls.  Of course, he was also a quiet guy who didn't create a big name for himself, like say Warren Sapp and Sherman.  He just did his job in the trenches of NFL games, equally good against pass and run, and he did it for 14 years. But you never hear Young mentioned as a possible HOF player.

Bryant Young's lack of HoF buzz is indeed perplexing. He was first team all-NFL only once, but second team three times and most importantly was on the 90s all-decade team. The correlation between being on an all-decade team and being a hall of famer (or at minimum a finalist) is extremely high, yet BY has never even been a HoF semifinalist (which is a list of 25 players each year). He was a Super Bowl champion, a defensive rookie of the year, a comeback player of the year and played on a high profile team while having a very good relationship with the media. It is ultimately a subjective process with a relatively small group of media members voting.
[/quote]

Funny how that works.  Bill Freehan was an 11-time All Star catcher for the Detroit Tigers, won five gold gloves and finished in the top three in AL MVP voting twice, but isn't in the HoF.  Hit 200 HRs.  Elston Howard played at roughly the same time, his stats weren't quite as good, he was on two fewer all star teams.  He won the MVP once, without leading the league in a single category.

As for the NBA, you have seven time all-star Jack Sikma, six time all-star Mitch Richmond, five-time all stars Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Chris Webber, four-time defensive player of the year Ben Wallace (who was undrafted, would be the first undrafted HoF player), three-time all star and only MVP not in HoF George McGinnis.  Or five time all-star Spencer Haywood, one of just nine players to average 20 points, 10 rebounds and 1+ block for his career.  The others are named Jabbar, Moses Malone, David Robinson, Elvin Hayes, Bob Lanier, Hakeen Olajuwon, Shaq and Tim Duncan.  First six in HoF, next two will be.

Re: Richard Sherman - OutsiderFan - 03-10-2018

Mitch Richmond and Chris Mullin are in the Basketball Hall of Fame. Tim Hardaway should be, but isn't. Sarunas Marciulonis is in too.


Re: Richard Sherman - yvonne - 03-10-2018

(03-10-2018, 11:45 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:  OK, it's time for some thread drift into more general HOF discussion...

Yeah, because a Stanford player potentially returning to the Bay Area isn't relevant to a Stanford sports board...

Re: Richard Sherman - JJJ - 03-10-2018

(03-10-2018, 03:33 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:  [quote author=OutsiderFan link=topic=18842.msg225701#msg225701 date=1520707539]
OK, it's time for some thread drift into more general HOF discussion...

Yeah, because a Stanford player potentially returning to the Bay Area isn't relevant to a Stanford sports board...
[/quote]
;D ;D ;D

Re: Richard Sherman - Bruce Wang - 03-10-2018

(03-10-2018, 03:33 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:  [quote author=OutsiderFan link=topic=18842.msg225701#msg225701 date=1520707539]
OK, it's time for some thread drift into more general HOF discussion...

Yeah, because a Stanford player potentially returning to the Bay Area isn't relevant to a Stanford sports board...
[/quote]

Or because a Stanford player returns to the Bay Area happens to return to campus often when recruits happen to be in town...

Re: Richard Sherman - BostonCard - 03-10-2018


https://sportsradiokjr.iheart.com/content/2018-03-09-richard-shermans-picks-in-seattle-all-34/

You can listen to al 34 of Sherman’s interceptions as announced by the opposing teams.  Pretty cool.  And as a bonus, there is one non-interception that 49er fans would rather not listen to.

BC

Re: Richard Sherman - 82lsju - 03-10-2018

Richard Sherman joining 49ers on 3-year, $39M deal

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000920544/article/richard-sherman-joining-49ers-on-3year-39m-deal

Re: Richard Sherman - BobK - 03-10-2018

Fantastic

Re: Richard Sherman - French Rage - 03-10-2018

Hope the 49ers bye is the same week as a big home game for us....

Re: Richard Sherman - JJJ - 03-10-2018

Pretty impressive accomplishment to get a deal like that coming off an injury like his, no?
Happy to have him back in the Bay Area!

Re: Richard Sherman - OutsiderFan - 03-11-2018

Pretty darn surprising to see a team sign someone coming off an achilles tear and two surgeries, before seeing him workout after said surgeries. 

Some contract details: https://twitter.com/TomPelissero/status/972666964668747776

After seeing Navorro Bowman not be the same guy after returning from the same injury, I'm really quite surprised the Niners signed Sherman so quickly.  They must be extremely confident about his recovery prognosis, but even so, the deal seems structured to be quite future performance-based.  Love that Niners put in incentives that would pay him more than he would have made in Seattle. 

Re: Richard Sherman - gocard14 - 03-11-2018

Good deal for both sides. The Niners are only on the hook for 7 mil up front. If he’s healthy enough to make the roster, it’s two more. If he plays in games, it’s one more, and if he makes the pro bowl he gets 3 more and a guaranteed second year.

In general it means it’s a 1 year 9-10 mil deal for the Niners with two years of team option, unless he makes the pro-bowl. Limited risk for the Niners, and if Sherman makes the big$, it will be because he earned it. I’m sure if Sherman shopped around more he could have found more guaranteed $, but I like that he’s betting on himself and as a Niners fan, I’m thrilled to have him. He is literally the prototype CB for how to play D in our scheme, and will be a great veteran voice on a very young defense.

Re: Richard Sherman - Trevmiesterj - 03-11-2018

As a 49er fan, I am ecstatic that they landed Richard; well done Shanahan and Lynch.  He is going to have a big positive impact on their defense and likely the entire squad. 

This video is a fascinating watch of a Stanford man defining intellectual brutality in the NFL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va29YFkchXo

Re: Richard Sherman - lex24 - 03-11-2018

I met Sherman once. It was on the sidelines. 2013. He was on his cell phone checking out the Arizona-Oregon game. He told me the score. Then he told Shaw. David just smiled and got on with coaching. I fist pumped Sherman. Kind of a cool memory. 

Re: Richard Sherman - PVTree - 03-12-2018

(03-11-2018, 10:04 PM)lex24 link Wrote:  I met Sherman once. It was on the sidelines. 2013. He was on his cell phone checking out the Arizona-Oregon game. He told me the score. Then he told Shaw. David just smiled and got on with coaching. I fist pumped Sherman. Kind of a cool memory.

I've always liked Sherman. I supported him when he threw a hissy fit on the sidelines when most thought it was out of place. I thought Stanford needed that type of passion to start changing the attitude of the team.

Re: Richard Sherman - MiamiCard - 03-12-2018

He's a great guy.  Took him out in Miami Beach once for Kam's bachelor party.  Stand up dude and very humble, surprisingly different than his public persona IMO. Pic below is at one of Miami's hot spots.

Anyone think this will help with CB recruiting? I'm sure he'll be at Stanford quite a bit. 

(03-11-2018, 10:04 PM)lex24 link Wrote:  I met Sherman once. It was on the sidelines. 2013. He was on his cell phone checking out the Arizona-Oregon game. He told me the score. Then he told Shaw. David just smiled and got on with coaching. I fist pumped Sherman. Kind of a cool memory.