5th Year Decision Thread - Printable Version
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RE: 5th Year Decision Thread - Phogge - 12-13-2019
Stanford is not going to the Rose Bowl with or without Swann and Williams. Let younger guys play who may have a chance to play in a future Rose Bowl. Thank the kids who transfer and in a way thank them for transferring.
Plan for those returning, don’t look back on those who chose to bail and work like hell in the weight room and in spring and fall camps. Play like the 4-8 record is an insult to your manhood and open up in Week One with your hair on fire.
That is what winning programs do. Block and tackle, this isn’t badminton.
RE: 5th Year Decision Thread - donkey687 - 12-13-2019
The program will survive these losses and likely have a better year in 2020 than 2019 even without these guys, but this makes me sad. We have at least 5 guys who would be candidates to start who are choosing to seek opportunities elsewhere. This is pretty rare even in the land of the transfer portal for starters to transfer out. There are only two reasons for this 1) their experience at Stanford has not been what they desire or 2) They see better opportunities for themselves elsewhere. Stanford is a world class institution that desires to be the best at everything, and when we have an aspect of the school that does not offer the best experience or opportunity for students, that is un-Stanford like and as a Stanford alum makes me sad. There is a problem here and something needs to change to improve the experience and opportunities for these talented young men. Stanford is in the business of providing the best experience and opportunity whether it be academics or athletics.
rich_matta2@yahoo.com - CardinalSagehen - 12-13-2019
(12-13-2019, 10:44 AM)donkey687 Wrote: The program will survive these losses and likely have a better year in 2020 than 2019 even without these guys, but this makes me sad. We have at least 5 guys who would be candidates to start who are choosing to seek opportunities elsewhere. This is pretty rare even in the land of the transfer portal for starters to transfer out. There are only two reasons for this 1) their experience at Stanford has not been what they desire or 2) They see better opportunities for themselves elsewhere. Stanford is a world class institution that desires to be the best at everything, and when we have an aspect of the school that does not offer the best experience or opportunity for students, that is un-Stanford like and as a Stanford alum makes me sad. There is a problem here and something needs to change to improve the experience and opportunities for these talented young men. Stanford is in the business of providing the best experience and opportunity whether it be academics or athletics.
or (2b) they liked Stanford but they care about a career in football and see that the guys behind them are nearly as good or better than them, which is a reason to have a better opportunity elsewhere. To their credit, they don't want to stick around to satisfy our "depth" or "be in the rotation", they want to play and be stars on a successful defense.
For example, Quenton Meeks < Paulson Adebo.
In the long run:
Hamilton <= Rouse / Miller / Bragg / Hinton? And unable to play tackle due to Sarell and possibly Little?
Williams <= DWP?
Swann <= Pakola or others that I struggle to name?
In the current reality, two good years of starting is all we can reasonably expect, with a third year being unusual. After that, they're either good enough for the NFL, out of eligibility, or better off going somewhere else to get the most exposure and try to show something new to the NFL.
Scarlett and Toohill are good examples of guys that should stay. Both had their first opportunities to become linchpin players and improved their standing to continue in football. By contrast, Swann, Williams and Hamilton would have relatively little to gain compared to the other two.
I wonder what someone like Thomas Schaeffer will do now - assuming the coaches want him to stay, which I would imagine they do. He's another type of player that might be getting his first real opportunity at Stanford in his fifth year.
RE: rich_matta2@yahoo.com - d4cohn - 12-13-2019
(12-13-2019, 12:02 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote:(12-13-2019, 10:44 AM)donkey687 Wrote: The program will survive these losses and likely have a better year in 2020 than 2019 even without these guys, but this makes me sad. We have at least 5 guys who would be candidates to start who are choosing to seek opportunities elsewhere. This is pretty rare even in the land of the transfer portal for starters to transfer out. There are only two reasons for this 1) their experience at Stanford has not been what they desire or 2) They see better opportunities for themselves elsewhere. Stanford is a world class institution that desires to be the best at everything, and when we have an aspect of the school that does not offer the best experience or opportunity for students, that is un-Stanford like and as a Stanford alum makes me sad. There is a problem here and something needs to change to improve the experience and opportunities for these talented young men. Stanford is in the business of providing the best experience and opportunity whether it be academics or athletics.
or (2b) they liked Stanford but they care about a career in football and see that the guys behind them are nearly as good or better than them, which is a reason to have a better opportunity elsewhere. To their credit, they don't want to stick around to satisfy our "depth" or "be in the rotation", they want to play and be stars on a successful defense.
For example, Quenton Meeks < Paulson Adebo.
In the long run:
Hamilton <= Rouse / Miller / Bragg / Hinton? And unable to play tackle due to Sarell and possibly Little?
Williams <= DWP?
Swann <= Pakola or others that I struggle to name?
In the current reality, two good years of starting is all we can reasonably expect, with a third year being unusual. After that, they're either good enough for the NFL, out of eligibility, or better off going somewhere else to get the most exposure and try to show something new to the NFL.
Scarlett and Toohill are good examples of guys that should stay. Both had their first opportunities to become linchpin players and improved their standing to continue in football. By contrast, Swann, Williams and Hamilton would have relatively little to gain compared to the other two.
I wonder what someone like Thomas Schaeffer will do now - assuming the coaches want him to stay, which I would imagine they do. He's another type of player that might be getting his first real opportunity at Stanford in his fifth year.
This. Great post Sagehen.
RE: rich_matta2@yahoo.com - donkey687 - 12-13-2019
(12-13-2019, 12:02 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote:(12-13-2019, 10:44 AM)donkey687 Wrote: The program will survive these losses and likely have a better year in 2020 than 2019 even without these guys, but this makes me sad. We have at least 5 guys who would be candidates to start who are choosing to seek opportunities elsewhere. This is pretty rare even in the land of the transfer portal for starters to transfer out. There are only two reasons for this 1) their experience at Stanford has not been what they desire or 2) They see better opportunities for themselves elsewhere. Stanford is a world class institution that desires to be the best at everything, and when we have an aspect of the school that does not offer the best experience or opportunity for students, that is un-Stanford like and as a Stanford alum makes me sad. There is a problem here and something needs to change to improve the experience and opportunities for these talented young men. Stanford is in the business of providing the best experience and opportunity whether it be academics or athletics.
or (2b) they liked Stanford but they care about a career in football and see that the guys behind them are nearly as good or better than them, which is a reason to have a better opportunity elsewhere. To their credit, they don't want to stick around to satisfy our "depth" or "be in the rotation", they want to play and be stars on a successful defense.
For example, Quenton Meeks < Paulson Adebo.
In the long run:
Hamilton <= Rouse / Miller / Bragg / Hinton? And unable to play tackle due to Sarell and possibly Little?
Williams <= DWP?
Swann <= Pakola or others that I struggle to name?
In the current reality, two good years of starting is all we can reasonably expect, with a third year being unusual. After that, they're either good enough for the NFL, out of eligibility, or better off going somewhere else to get the most exposure and try to show something new to the NFL.
Scarlett and Toohill are good examples of guys that should stay. Both had their first opportunities to become linchpin players and improved their standing to continue in football. By contrast, Swann, Williams and Hamilton would have relatively little to gain compared to the other two.
I wonder what someone like Thomas Schaeffer will do now - assuming the coaches want him to stay, which I would imagine they do. He's another type of player that might be getting his first real opportunity at Stanford in his fifth year.
Your argument holds true for the other 6 guys in the portal, but I don't think it holds true for Willams, Swann, Hamiltion and even Hattis and Eboh. They have the opportunity that Scarlett and Toohill had and they are looking for a new program. They are proven starters in a positions of need. This is a Reid Travis and Cormac Ryan type of situation. It is sad in my opinion. Worse than last year when starters Barton, Jackson, etc chose to retire from football. At least they weren't seeking greener pastures that Stanford couldn't satisfy like these 5 guys.
RE: 5th Year Decision Thread - OutsiderFan - 12-13-2019
Donald Stewart now in portal.
He's an example of someone for whom it probably makes sense to leave. Not expected to be a starter, being pushed by younger and maybe more talented players at his position.
But still, 12? And NFL early entry declarations haven't been factored in.
RE: 5th Year Decision Thread - Goose - 12-13-2019
(12-13-2019, 10:44 AM)donkey687 Wrote: Stanford is a world class institution that desires to be the best at everything, and when we have an aspect of the school that does not offer the best experience or opportunity for students, that is un-Stanford like and as a Stanford alum makes me sad. There is a problem here and something needs to change to improve the experience and opportunities for these talented young men. Stanford is in the business of providing the best experience and opportunity whether it be academics or athletics.Exactly. As a world class institution, we have provided these players with the opportunity to earn a degree and to play football. They earned that degree, and due to their experience at Stanford have determined that it is possibly time to leave. The "best experience" does involve eventually leaving. Determining when that is may be a bit variable, but for most people getting a degree is the point at which they leave. This does not mean that they did not have the best experience possible. It may mean they did, and are now ready for "next".
I think the players are realizing that the portal is a tool they can use to increase their education and experience. If you are a Grad Transfer, going to the NFL is probably a long shot. You have one year to show you are ready for the NFL. You will have to learn a new system, which is not always trivial. You are inserting yourself into a pipeline that undoubtedly has at least somebody to compete with you. You probably can't do spring football, unless you are able to graduate in December. There are lots of reasons not to do this if you are a starter on your current team and the NFL is you ultimate goal. If you are not a starter, or if your goal is to use football as a way to get another degree, the portal makes absolute sense. It also allows you to broaden your geographic and academic experience. We are going to see more of this, for sure. Stanford students are smart and ambitious.
There may in fact be a problem with the personnel relations on the team. If there is, we will eventually hear about it. However, these guys going into the portal is not ipso facto evidence of it. In general, such things are very hard to keep confidential, especially if multiple people feel the same way. There is always some tension between coaches and players, but if the coach is an ass, word gets out.
RE: 5th Year Decision Thread - BostonCard - 12-13-2019
(12-13-2019, 12:57 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Donald Stewart now in portal.
He's an example of someone for whom it probably makes sense to leave. Not expected to be a starter, being pushed by younger and maybe more talented players at his position.
But still, 12? And NFL early entry declarations haven't been factored in.
By my count, 9:
Swann, Williams, Peek, Eboh, Hattis, Hamilton, Powell, Harrington, Stewart
Of course the portal hasn't closed, so it may well be 12 when we are done.
BC
RE: 5th Year Decision Thread - SamuelMcF - 12-13-2019
(12-13-2019, 01:04 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(12-13-2019, 12:57 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Donald Stewart now in portal.
He's an example of someone for whom it probably makes sense to leave. Not expected to be a starter, being pushed by younger and maybe more talented players at his position.
But still, 12? And NFL early entry declarations haven't been factored in.
By my count, 9:
Swann, Williams, Peek, Eboh, Hattis, Hamilton, Powell, Harrington, Stewart
Of course the portal hasn't closed, so it may well be 12 when we are done.
BC
Richardson makes 10, though I agree with you in not counting the 2 walk-ons (and honestly Richardson would've remained one had he not saved our asses last Spring).
RE: 5th Year Decision Thread - OutsiderFan - 12-13-2019
(12-13-2019, 01:04 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(12-13-2019, 12:57 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Donald Stewart now in portal.
He's an example of someone for whom it probably makes sense to leave. Not expected to be a starter, being pushed by younger and maybe more talented players at his position.
But still, 12? And NFL early entry declarations haven't been factored in.
By my count, 9:
Swann, Williams, Peek, Eboh, Hattis, Hamilton, Powell, Harrington, Stewart
Of course the portal hasn't closed, so it may well be 12 when we are done.
BC
247 reports 12 Stanford players have entered in December.
But I did learn Stanford has fierce competition for portal entries this month: UConn now has had 18 enter in December!
UConn Football is going through a lot of turmoil with Big East acceptance and being in purgatory without a conference, so it makes some sense. Stanford still seems fishy, and being in a similar reality to UConn is never good.
RE: 5th Year Decision Thread - SamuelMcF - 12-13-2019
(12-13-2019, 01:18 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: 247 reports 12 Stanford players have entered in December.
But I did learn Stanford has fierce competition for portal entries this month: UConn now has had 18 enter in December!
UConn Football is going through a lot of turmoil with Big East acceptance and being in purgatory without a conference, so it makes some sense. Stanford still seems fishy, and being in a similar reality to UConn is never good.
Pardon the nitpicking, but are we really going to count 2 walk-ons? I know 247 does, but I wouldn't.
RE: 5th Year Decision Thread - Spiny_Norman - 12-13-2019
(12-13-2019, 01:04 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(12-13-2019, 12:57 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Donald Stewart now in portal.
He's an example of someone for whom it probably makes sense to leave. Not expected to be a starter, being pushed by younger and maybe more talented players at his position.
But still, 12? And NFL early entry declarations haven't been factored in.
By my count, 9:
Swann, Williams, Peek, Eboh, Hattis, Hamilton, Powell, Harrington, Stewart
Of course the portal hasn't closed, so it may well be 12 when we are done.
BC
The portal never really closes. There is no deadline to enter it. In theory, a Stanford player could participate in spring practice, graduate, then make a decision to transfer over the summer. It would be fine as long as the other school would admit him on short notice.
RE: 5th Year Decision Thread - BostonCard - 12-13-2019
(12-13-2019, 01:24 PM)SamuelMcF Wrote:(12-13-2019, 01:18 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: 247 reports 12 Stanford players have entered in December.
But I did learn Stanford has fierce competition for portal entries this month: UConn now has had 18 enter in December!
UConn Football is going through a lot of turmoil with Big East acceptance and being in purgatory without a conference, so it makes some sense. Stanford still seems fishy, and being in a similar reality to UConn is never good.
Pardon the nitpicking, but are we really going to count 2 walk-ons? I know 247 does, but I wouldn't.
IMO, what we should really focus on is the number of expected starters/significant contributors who enter the portal, not the total number. Swann, Williams, Hattis, Hamilton (tier 1), and Harrington, Powell, and Eboh (tier 2). That's the number that should concern people.
If we have three more players entering the portal, it would be a bad sign if they were Fox, Toner, and Schaffer; it would not be a bad sign if they were Butler, Parson, and Speights.
BC
RE: 5th Year Decision Thread - Langdude - 12-13-2019
Are we sure Powell is Tier 2 and not Tier 1? He started over Henry Hattis two years ago, and presumably would have started this year had he not been injured the entire season. Though I admit that Hattis may have improved to the degree that he was a better option than Powell; perhaps that is why they moved him to guard and not because of injury. I don't know. I do remember the "shout out" that Hattis got at the end of the bowl game.
-m.
RE: 5th Year Decision Thread - BostonCard - 12-13-2019
(12-13-2019, 05:06 PM)Langdude Wrote: Are we sure Powell is Tier 2 and not Tier 1? He started over Henry Hattis two years ago, and presumably would have started this year had he not been injured the entire season. Though I admit that Hattis may have improved to the degree that he was a better option than Powell; perhaps that is why they moved him to guard and not because of injury. I don't know. I do remember the "shout out" that Hattis got at the end of the bowl game.
-m.
I was just going by the OP's characterization to start the thread.
BC
RE: rich_matta2@yahoo.com - teejers1 - 12-13-2019
(12-13-2019, 12:09 PM)d4cohn Wrote:(12-13-2019, 12:02 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote:(12-13-2019, 10:44 AM)donkey687 Wrote: The program will survive these losses and likely have a better year in 2020 than 2019 even without these guys, but this makes me sad. We have at least 5 guys who would be candidates to start who are choosing to seek opportunities elsewhere. This is pretty rare even in the land of the transfer portal for starters to transfer out. There are only two reasons for this 1) their experience at Stanford has not been what they desire or 2) They see better opportunities for themselves elsewhere. Stanford is a world class institution that desires to be the best at everything, and when we have an aspect of the school that does not offer the best experience or opportunity for students, that is un-Stanford like and as a Stanford alum makes me sad. There is a problem here and something needs to change to improve the experience and opportunities for these talented young men. Stanford is in the business of providing the best experience and opportunity whether it be academics or athletics.
or (2b) they liked Stanford but they care about a career in football and see that the guys behind them are nearly as good or better than them, which is a reason to have a better opportunity elsewhere. To their credit, they don't want to stick around to satisfy our "depth" or "be in the rotation", they want to play and be stars on a successful defense.
For example, Quenton Meeks < Paulson Adebo.
In the long run:
Hamilton <= Rouse / Miller / Bragg / Hinton? And unable to play tackle due to Sarell and possibly Little?
Williams <= DWP?
Swann <= Pakola or others that I struggle to name?
In the current reality, two good years of starting is all we can reasonably expect, with a third year being unusual. After that, they're either good enough for the NFL, out of eligibility, or better off going somewhere else to get the most exposure and try to show something new to the NFL.
Scarlett and Toohill are good examples of guys that should stay. Both had their first opportunities to become linchpin players and improved their standing to continue in football. By contrast, Swann, Williams and Hamilton would have relatively little to gain compared to the other two.
I wonder what someone like Thomas Schaeffer will do now - assuming the coaches want him to stay, which I would imagine they do. He's another type of player that might be getting his first real opportunity at Stanford in his fifth year.
This. Great post Sagehen.
Except I have no idea what the bolded part even means, especially for the kids who got meaningful PT last season and were reasonably expected to get same this upcoming season. Exposure? Show something new? What? If you've got game, the NFL will find and see you.
If you said "play in a full house in front of passionate fans," then okay. Of course, that is its own kind of indictment on the program.
The bottom line is this: Stanford and/or the football program is not appealing enough for these kids to stay. And until we learn definitively that these kids were booted out via graduation and couldn't get into a grad program - which I find exceedingly hard to believe, given the easy option of just holding back Winter/Spring quarters and then taking some classes next fall - I view this as another indication of things going a bit awry.
Doesn't mean Stanford can't recover; but probably means to do so Stanford will have to get exceptionally lucky (including on the injury front).
RE: rich_matta2@yahoo.com - Goose - 12-13-2019
(12-13-2019, 06:13 PM)teejers1 Wrote: The bottom line is this: Stanford and/or the football program is not appealing enough for these kids to stay. And until we learn definitively that these kids were booted out via graduation and couldn't get into a grad program - which I find exceedingly hard to believe, given the easy option of just holding back Winter/Spring quarters and then taking some classes next fall - I view this as another indication of things going a bit awry.Do you in all seriousness not understand why a high achiever, goal oriented individual would be adverse to intentionally wasting a year by artificially postponing graduation in order to play football??? You are quite right that if that course of action is the only way you could stay at Stanford, it would generally not be appealing enough to stay at Stanford, no matter what else Stanford did. There are undoubtedly special cases where a player wants to take some particular classes where staying an "extra" year may make sense, but it certainly is not the general case.
It is also important to realize that these players have actually gone through four years of practices, strength and conditioning, and spring football at Stanford. This is a grind. There aren't many "new experiences" to be had by doing it again. While playing another season with "your guys" may be attractive, the vast majority of your classmates will be moving on. Playing another year elsewhere to pay for a graduate degree, coupled with whatever additional insights that will come from a new place actually makes sense. I am pretty sure that if one of the players was giving up football and going to another school, nobody would find that remarkable. Playing one more year to do the same should not be any more unusual.
RE: 5th Year Decision Thread - OutsiderFan - 12-14-2019
It sure would provide more context to indicate on the 247 website transfer section everyone uses, which players are grad transfers and which ones are not. Grad transfers are certainly a lot more understandable than pre-grad transfers for the reasons Goose states.
RE: 5th Year Decision Thread - winflop - 12-14-2019
(12-13-2019, 01:18 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(12-13-2019, 01:04 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(12-13-2019, 12:57 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Donald Stewart now in portal.
He's an example of someone for whom it probably makes sense to leave. Not expected to be a starter, being pushed by younger and maybe more talented players at his position.
But still, 12? And NFL early entry declarations haven't been factored in.
By my count, 9:
Swann, Williams, Peek, Eboh, Hattis, Hamilton, Powell, Harrington, Stewart
Of course the portal hasn't closed, so it may well be 12 when we are done.
BC
247 reports 12 Stanford players have entered in December.
But I did learn Stanford has fierce competition for portal entries this month: UConn now has had 18 enter in December!
UConn Football is going through a lot of turmoil with Big East acceptance and being in purgatory without a conference, so it makes some sense. Stanford still seems fishy, and being in a similar reality to UConn is never good.
Rumor is UConn is getting rid of its football program entirely, so I'm not sure that's a program you want to compare to
RE: rich_matta2@yahoo.com - teejers1 - 12-14-2019
(12-13-2019, 08:17 PM)Goose Wrote:(12-13-2019, 06:13 PM)teejers1 Wrote: The bottom line is this: Stanford and/or the football program is not appealing enough for these kids to stay. And until we learn definitively that these kids were booted out via graduation and couldn't get into a grad program - which I find exceedingly hard to believe, given the easy option of just holding back Winter/Spring quarters and then taking some classes next fall - I view this as another indication of things going a bit awry.Do you in all seriousness not understand why a high achiever, goal oriented individual would be adverse to intentionally wasting a year by artificially postponing graduation in order to play football??? You are quite right that if that course of action is the only way you could stay at Stanford, it would generally not be appealing enough to stay at Stanford, no matter what else Stanford did. There are undoubtedly special cases where a player wants to take some particular classes where staying an "extra" year may make sense, but it certainly is not the general case.
It is also important to realize that these players have actually gone through four years of practices, strength and conditioning, and spring football at Stanford. This is a grind. There aren't many "new experiences" to be had by doing it again. While playing another season with "your guys" may be attractive, the vast majority of your classmates will be moving on. Playing another year elsewhere to pay for a graduate degree, coupled with whatever additional insights that will come from a new place actually makes sense. I am pretty sure that if one of the players was giving up football and going to another school, nobody would find that remarkable. Playing one more year to do the same should not be any more unusual.
???
Do you in all seriousness not understand that the concern is NOT with those transferring and hanging up the cleats; but rather, those going to another program to play one last year of football instead of at Stanford? That was the entire thrust of my questioning of your statement in bold about showing the NFL something else.
I stand by my comments/concerns about kids who got meaningful PT last season, were expected to get the same this season, and instead enter the portal to play somewhere else. And they're not leaving Podunk U to play somewhere else. They're leaving Stanford University.
Every fan of Stanford football should be concerned and wonder WTH is going on.