MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - Printable Version
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RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - winflop - 01-19-2020
(01-18-2020, 06:57 PM)StanfordMatt Wrote: There’s bad reffing and then there’s Tim Donaghy reffing. This game falls in the latter category. I won’t put this loss on the players. The FBI needs to look into this game.
I wasn't able to watch but if you have a 20-point lead at halftime there's no way you should be in any kind of position to let officiating decide the game. This one is on our team.
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - JohnR34231 - 01-19-2020
(01-19-2020, 06:39 AM)winflop Wrote:(01-18-2020, 06:57 PM)StanfordMatt Wrote: There’s bad reffing and then there’s Tim Donaghy reffing. This game falls in the latter category. I won’t put this loss on the players. The FBI needs to look into this game.
I wasn't able to watch but if you have a 20-point lead at halftime there's no way you should be in any kind of position to let officiating decide the game. This one is on our team.
I agree, but it is the knee jerk reaction of some people to blame the refs whenever their team loses a close, tough game.
I'll have to admit, though, this is the first time I have ever heard someone call for an FBI investigation.
P.S. Wouldn't it be a hoot if Trump tweeted "Stanford got screwed by the refs last night in their loss to U$C."
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - martyup - 01-19-2020
This was a gut punch. This was a happy-go-lucky team that schooled SC in the first half. This loss must have hurt the psyche of our team. I watched Terry sit down on the bench after fouling out and he looked shell shocked and deeply saddened. Let's hope this loss doesn't destroy the mojo that our team has had this season.
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - JohnR34231 - 01-19-2020
(01-19-2020, 07:40 AM)martyup Wrote: This was a gut punch. This was a happy-go-lucky team that schooled SC in the first half. This loss must have hurt the psyche of our team. I watched Terry sit down on the bench after fouling out and he looked shell shocked and deeply saddened. Let's hope this loss doesn't destroy the mojo that our team has had this season.
Didn't Terry's team win the Minnesota HS state championship a couple of times.
I don't think he is used to losing.
Which is OK. I hope that doesn't change.
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - burger - 01-19-2020
(01-19-2020, 06:39 AM)winflop Wrote: I wasn't able to watch
Then maybe you shouldn't comment on the quality of the officiating? Essentially, our guys were getting mugged nearly every time we went near the basket, and we did not get calls. USC got every conceivable call. On the worst one that I saw, Davis got knocked down when a USC player backed into him, and somehow Davis got called for the foul. The broadcast showed him miming what happened to the referee, to no avail. On Rule of Tree, they said that a couple of the fouls on three pointers involved leg kicks by USC, which should be called as flops this year under a new rule. On the first inbounds turnover with 15 seconds left in the second half, Terry got knocked down but did not get a call. There were plenty of others, too.
Obviously, bad officiating was not the only cause of our loss. But it sure contributed.
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - 81alum - 01-19-2020
(01-19-2020, 07:10 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote: I agree, but it is the knee jerk reaction of some people to blame the refs whenever their team loses a close, tough game.People do tend to look for excuses, and we made plenty of masochistic mistakes all on our own that cost us the game--most especially the failure to be able to inbound twice with the game on the line and mere seconds to go. However, the refereeing was wildly inconsistent from the first half to the second half. And I think it is more than a coincidence that we played very well during the first half when the game was being called one way, and very poorly in the second half when the game was called another.
You can say--as the announcers did--that it is on us for failing to adjust. Fair enough. But however one assigns blame for this meltdown, the officiating was inconsistent.
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - JohnR34231 - 01-19-2020
(01-19-2020, 08:10 AM)burger Wrote:(01-19-2020, 06:39 AM)winflop Wrote: I wasn't able to watch
Then maybe you shouldn't comment on the quality of the officiating? Essentially, our guys were getting mugged nearly every time we went near the basket, and we did not get calls. USC got every conceivable call. On the worst one that I saw, Davis got knocked down when a USC player backed into him, and somehow Davis got called for the foul. The broadcast showed him miming what happened to the referee, to no avail. On Rule of Tree, they said that a couple of the fouls on three pointers involved leg kicks by USC, which should be called as flops this year under a new rule. On the first inbounds turnover with 15 seconds left in the second half, Terry got knocked down but did not get a call. There were plenty of others, too.
Obviously, bad officiating was not the only cause of our loss. But it sure contributed.
He didn't comment on the quality of the officiating. He merely said that if you have a 20 point lead you shouldn't put yourself in a position to let officiating decide the game.
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - burger - 01-19-2020
(01-19-2020, 08:28 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote: He didn't comment on the quality of the officiating. He merely said that if you have a 20 point lead you shouldn't put yourself in a position to let officiating decide the game.
A more accurate viewpoint is that bad officiating put us in a position to lose the game. They got 36 FT attempts to our 14. How do you defend when they are getting foul calls every time we get close to them? Even if the FTs alone didn't cost us the game, I thought we played less physically on defense and were less aggressive on rebounding as the game went on to avoid getting the calls. That's how bad officiating helps to decide the game.
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - magnus - 01-19-2020
One thing not mentioned but which was mentioned by the announcers all through the first half. The open windows on one side of the arena providing a bright backdrop to one end of the court. They were suggesting it was partially to blame for USC's poor shooting percentage in the first half.
Unfortunately, if indeed a factor, we had that bright window backdrop for an extra 5 minutes of overtime.
(They claimed they had never seen the windows open for a day game before)
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - Farm93 - 01-19-2020
(01-19-2020, 09:18 AM)magnus Wrote: One thing not mentioned but which was mentioned by the announcers all through the first half. The open windows on one side of the arena providing a bright backdrop to one end of the court. They were suggesting it was partially to blame for USC's poor shooting percentage in the first half.By OT the sun had set so it was not an issue. More or less was dark with 10 minutes left in the second half.
Unfortunately, if indeed a factor, we had that bright window backdrop for an extra 5 minutes of overtime.
(They claimed they had never seen the windows open for a day game before)
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - BobK - 01-19-2020
We start the season thinking another losing record Haase gets fired our recruits not highly ranked
Now at 15-3 our coaching is outstanding our Frosh even better than outstanding. A revelation for sure
Call me thrilled. Yes we blew a brobdingnagian lead but somehow with great coaching and play we got that big lead. Then with the game on the line we get back into the game we are going to win and Damn we don’t.
No question the coaches and players hurt more than us fans.
Cal and Washington State next Go Card I’m now a believer
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - BostonCard - 01-19-2020
The schedule says Cal and Oregon State next.
BC
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - JohnR34231 - 01-19-2020
(01-19-2020, 09:21 AM)Farm93 Wrote:(01-19-2020, 09:18 AM)magnus Wrote: One thing not mentioned but which was mentioned by the announcers all through the first half. The open windows on one side of the arena providing a bright backdrop to one end of the court. They were suggesting it was partially to blame for USC's poor shooting percentage in the first half.By OT the sun had set so it was not an issue. More or less was dark with 10 minutes left in the second half.
Unfortunately, if indeed a factor, we had that bright window backdrop for an extra 5 minutes of overtime.
(They claimed they had never seen the windows open for a day game before)
C'mon, you're supposed to be making up excuses for the loss. Not poking holes in ones that have already been made.
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - 76lsjumb - 01-19-2020
Life was so much easier a few years ago. Back then, there would have been no need for discussion. Everyone would have agreed: IT'S ALL DAWKINS' FAULT!!
Surprisingly, this time, there's been very little comment about the coaching over the last 15 seconds of regulation [let alone much of the second half]. Two opportunities to set up inbound plays that would have almost certainly iced the game, and neither seems to have been properly handled by the coaches. It is, of course, possible that good plays were called and they just weren't executed, but that's never stopped most people from blaming the coach.
On the last regulation inbounds in particular, it seems to me that the final thing the coaches should have told them was, if you're going to throw it long to someone releasing to our basket, make sure you throw it LONG -- i.e., not simply to half court. If the coaches didn't make that absolutely clear, it's on them.
I think the team this year has shown a great attitude, and I'm [somewhat] optimistic they will be able to respond. But this isn't the first game in which they've shown extended periods of incredibly poor basketball. Indeed, there have been a couple of games where one half has been very good and the other atrocious. And, it's not just the freshmen [in fact, yesterday, the freshmen -- silly fouls on 3-point shooters notwithstanding -- were probably the least responsible].
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - JohnR34231 - 01-19-2020
(01-19-2020, 11:30 AM)76lsjumb Wrote: Life was so much easier a few years ago. Back then, there would have been no need for discussion. Everyone would have agreed: IT'S ALL DAWKINS' FAULT!!
Surprisingly, this time, there's been very little comment about the coaching over the last 15 seconds of regulation [let alone much of the second half]. Two opportunities to set up inbound plays that would have almost certainly iced the game, and neither seems to have been properly handled by the coaches. It is, of course, possible that good plays were called and they just weren't executed, but that's never stopped most people from blaming the coach.
On the last regulation inbounds in particular, it seems to me that the final thing the coaches should have told them was, if you're going to throw it long to someone releasing to our basket, make sure you throw it LONG -- i.e., not simply to half court. If the coaches didn't make that absolutely clear, it's on them.
I think the team this year has shown a great attitude, and I'm [somewhat] optimistic they will be able to respond. But this isn't the first game in which they've shown extended periods of incredibly poor basketball. Indeed, there have been a couple of games where one half has been very good and the other atrocious. And, it's not just the freshmen [in fact, yesterday, the freshmen -- silly fouls on 3-point shooters notwithstanding -- were probably the least responsible].
Yeah, as I said before. If this were a football game it would all be on Shaw.
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - BobK - 01-19-2020
I blank out Oregon State as Tinkle is the coach I wanted 5-6 years ago
Thanks BC
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - Brickcity - 01-19-2020
(01-19-2020, 11:36 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote:(01-19-2020, 11:30 AM)76lsjumb Wrote: Life was so much easier a few years ago. Back then, there would have been no need for discussion. Everyone would have agreed: IT'S ALL DAWKINS' FAULT!!
Surprisingly, this time, there's been very little comment about the coaching over the last 15 seconds of regulation [let alone much of the second half]. Two opportunities to set up inbound plays that would have almost certainly iced the game, and neither seems to have been properly handled by the coaches. It is, of course, possible that good plays were called and they just weren't executed, but that's never stopped most people from blaming the coach.
On the last regulation inbounds in particular, it seems to me that the final thing the coaches should have told them was, if you're going to throw it long to someone releasing to our basket, make sure you throw it LONG -- i.e., not simply to half court. If the coaches didn't make that absolutely clear, it's on them.
I think the team this year has shown a great attitude, and I'm [somewhat] optimistic they will be able to respond. But this isn't the first game in which they've shown extended periods of incredibly poor basketball. Indeed, there have been a couple of games where one half has been very good and the other atrocious. And, it's not just the freshmen [in fact, yesterday, the freshmen -- silly fouls on 3-point shooters notwithstanding -- were probably the least responsible].
Yeah, as I said before. If this were a football game it would all be on Shaw.
Ok, I'll bite. I can't speak for others, but there is a reason why I cut Haase more slack than Shaw. Haase simply strikes me as a much more competitive coach than Shaw. Case in point: Haase will seemingly fly anywhere at anytime to get a recruit. His road travels are legend at this point. Shaw? He somehow mustered the will to fly to Texas to visit EJ Smith when it looked like Smith would sign with A&M. On a related note, I'm sure we've all read Shaw's quotes where he talks about the fact he doesn't ask his assistants to work late into the evenings contrary to what is customary in the profession.
Then there's the matter of firing - or not firing - assistants. Haase is only in his fourth year so it doesn't surprise me that he hasn't had much staff "turnover," at least to my knowledge. But, Shaw is entering his tenth season and it appears he's never fired an assistant. This offseason was the most galling example: coming off a 4-8 season, after an obvious decline in the program the past few years, he still doesn't make a move in an effort to improve the team. I'm not exactly sure why he doesn't pull the trigger - my best guess is that he has grown attached to the assistants, people whom he probably considers family at this point.
Now, ask yourself this question: does this sound like the behavior of an ultra-competitive head coach?
Look, I'm not arguing that Haase in infallible. He admitted after the game that he could have done a better job of ensuring the team didn't screw up the two inbounds passes at the end. But, I generally find myself gravitating towards a coach who is more "firecracker" and less "wet noodle."
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - teejers1 - 01-19-2020
(01-19-2020, 12:36 PM)Brickcity Wrote:(01-19-2020, 11:36 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote:(01-19-2020, 11:30 AM)76lsjumb Wrote: Life was so much easier a few years ago. Back then, there would have been no need for discussion. Everyone would have agreed: IT'S ALL DAWKINS' FAULT!!
Surprisingly, this time, there's been very little comment about the coaching over the last 15 seconds of regulation [let alone much of the second half]. Two opportunities to set up inbound plays that would have almost certainly iced the game, and neither seems to have been properly handled by the coaches. It is, of course, possible that good plays were called and they just weren't executed, but that's never stopped most people from blaming the coach.
On the last regulation inbounds in particular, it seems to me that the final thing the coaches should have told them was, if you're going to throw it long to someone releasing to our basket, make sure you throw it LONG -- i.e., not simply to half court. If the coaches didn't make that absolutely clear, it's on them.
I think the team this year has shown a great attitude, and I'm [somewhat] optimistic they will be able to respond. But this isn't the first game in which they've shown extended periods of incredibly poor basketball. Indeed, there have been a couple of games where one half has been very good and the other atrocious. And, it's not just the freshmen [in fact, yesterday, the freshmen -- silly fouls on 3-point shooters notwithstanding -- were probably the least responsible].
Yeah, as I said before. If this were a football game it would all be on Shaw.
Ok, I'll bite. I can't speak for others, but there is a reason why I cut Haase more slack than Shaw. Haase simply strikes me as a much more competitive coach than Shaw. Case in point: Haase will seemingly fly anywhere at anytime to get a recruit. His road travels are legend at this point. Shaw? He somehow mustered the will to fly to Texas to visit EJ Smith when it looked like Smith would sign with A&M. On a related note, I'm sure we've all read Shaw's quotes where he talks about the fact he doesn't ask his assistants to work late into the evenings contrary to what is customary in the profession.
Then there's the matter of firing - or not firing - assistants. Haase is only in his fourth year so it doesn't surprise me that he hasn't had much staff "turnover," at least to my knowledge. But, Shaw is entering his tenth season and it appears he's never fired an assistant. This offseason was the most galling example: coming off a 4-8 season, after an obvious decline in the program the past few years, he still doesn't make a move in an effort to improve the team. I'm not exactly sure why he doesn't pull the trigger - my best guess is that he has grown attached to the assistants, people whom he probably considers family at this point.
Now, ask yourself this question: does this sound like the behavior of an ultra-competitive head coach?
Look, I'm not arguing that Haase in infallible. He admitted after the game that he could have done a better job of ensuring the team didn't screw up the two inbounds passes at the end. But, I generally find myself gravitating towards a coach who is more "firecracker" and less "wet noodle."
I didn't see the game real-time, either (thankfully) - but was following on the phone, which was anguish enough.
There is a pretty obvious difference between play calling and execution. On the last in bounds pass, the play call was fine - the guy was WIDE OPEN. (when is the last time Shaw has schemed a guy open with a great play call). The guy waited too long to make the pass and then short-armed it. That's all execution.
I didn't see the prior in-bounds play, but someone said Terry was knocked on his ass. If tture, hard to get too upset about the design/play call.
Now, having said all of the above, losing a game like that has to be at least partially on the coaches. By hook or by crook, you've got to lock down that W.
It was as bad a loss as I can recall (someone mentioned the theft of the UCLA game when Law Hill cleanly blocked a last-second Bruin shot and was called for a foul that gave UCLA the game/conferennce title. That one probably was worse, due to ramifications of the L; however, we have no clue yet if this team will bounce back or if this L will bring the entire season down.
That also will reflect on Haase.
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - 76lsjumb - 01-19-2020
(01-19-2020, 12:36 PM)Brickcity Wrote: Look, I'm not arguing that Haase in infallible. He admitted after the game that he could have done a better job of ensuring the team didn't screw up the two inbounds passes at the end.
I didn't know that Haase addressed that after the game. Good on him.
RE: MBB: Trojan War (not my title, gostanford’s) - JohnR34231 - 01-19-2020
(01-19-2020, 12:36 PM)Brickcity Wrote:(01-19-2020, 11:36 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote:(01-19-2020, 11:30 AM)76lsjumb Wrote: Life was so much easier a few years ago. Back then, there would have been no need for discussion. Everyone would have agreed: IT'S ALL DAWKINS' FAULT!!
Surprisingly, this time, there's been very little comment about the coaching over the last 15 seconds of regulation [let alone much of the second half]. Two opportunities to set up inbound plays that would have almost certainly iced the game, and neither seems to have been properly handled by the coaches. It is, of course, possible that good plays were called and they just weren't executed, but that's never stopped most people from blaming the coach.
On the last regulation inbounds in particular, it seems to me that the final thing the coaches should have told them was, if you're going to throw it long to someone releasing to our basket, make sure you throw it LONG -- i.e., not simply to half court. If the coaches didn't make that absolutely clear, it's on them.
I think the team this year has shown a great attitude, and I'm [somewhat] optimistic they will be able to respond. But this isn't the first game in which they've shown extended periods of incredibly poor basketball. Indeed, there have been a couple of games where one half has been very good and the other atrocious. And, it's not just the freshmen [in fact, yesterday, the freshmen -- silly fouls on 3-point shooters notwithstanding -- were probably the least responsible].
Yeah, as I said before. If this were a football game it would all be on Shaw.
Ok, I'll bite. I can't speak for others, but there is a reason why I cut Haase more slack than Shaw. Haase simply strikes me as a much more competitive coach than Shaw. Case in point: Haase will seemingly fly anywhere at anytime to get a recruit. His road travels are legend at this point. Shaw? He somehow mustered the will to fly to Texas to visit EJ Smith when it looked like Smith would sign with A&M. On a related note, I'm sure we've all read Shaw's quotes where he talks about the fact he doesn't ask his assistants to work late into the evenings contrary to what is customary in the profession.
Then there's the matter of firing - or not firing - assistants. Haase is only in his fourth year so it doesn't surprise me that he hasn't had much staff "turnover," at least to my knowledge. But, Shaw is entering his tenth season and it appears he's never fired an assistant. This offseason was the most galling example: coming off a 4-8 season, after an obvious decline in the program the past few years, he still doesn't make a move in an effort to improve the team. I'm not exactly sure why he doesn't pull the trigger - my best guess is that he has grown attached to the assistants, people whom he probably considers family at this point.
Now, ask yourself this question: does this sound like the behavior of an ultra-competitive head coach?
Look, I'm not arguing that Haase in infallible. He admitted after the game that he could have done a better job of ensuring the team didn't screw up the two inbounds passes at the end. But, I generally find myself gravitating towards a coach who is more "firecracker" and less "wet noodle."
Well when Haase has taken us to the Big Dance 2-3 times and perhaps the Sweet Sixteen once or twice I would be more inclined to agree with you. He has already had more losing seasons in three years than Shaw has had in nine. Now I'm sure some people will excuse this by saying he wasn't "handed the keys to a Ferrari" the way Shaw was, but that only goes so far.
Until then, I beg to differ.