Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands

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RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - OutsiderFan - 08-04-2020

The absurdity of this situation is the players don't have either representation or any collective bargaining ability. How can players organize so terms are acceptable by them, and also available to new recruits who aren't even on campus yet? It seems to me they need to organize into a legal entity or membership association in lieu of being granted union rights, as a first step.

This player movement could rapidly develop into a big recruiting advantage for the Pac-12 if it plays its cards right.

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - Softball Fan - 08-04-2020

(08-04-2020, 07:15 AM)Phogge Wrote: I imagine some schools are terrified but Stanford doesn’t need athletics. There is so much going on in medicine and science and there is no shortage of high school apps.

I agree. If "student" athletes are going to be described as "entertainers" entitled to compensation I say eliminate all varsity sports; club level only. Let's bring colleges back to academic institutions with the primary focus to provide an academic education.

NFL and NBA can set up farm teams for 17 year old kids who want to be paid for what they do and a stinking quarter million dollar scholarship is not enough

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - Giants - 08-04-2020

(08-04-2020, 08:17 AM)paloalto Wrote:
(08-04-2020, 07:15 AM)Phogge Wrote: I imagine some schools are terrified but Stanford doesn’t need athletics. There is so much going on in medicine and science and there is no shortage of high school apps.

I agree. If "student" athletes are going to be described as "entertainers" entitled to compensation I say eliminate all varsity sports; club level only. Let's bring colleges back to academic institutions with the primary focus to provide an academic education.

NFL and NBA can set up farm teams for 17 year old kids who want to be paid for what they do and a stinking quarter million dollar scholarship is not enough

The NBA established a structure that allows guys to go directly from HS to pro hoops beginning with the 2020-21 season.

Pro football? Nah. Why bother when the SEC is happy to function in that capacity with no charge to the NFL.

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - Mick - 08-04-2020

(08-04-2020, 08:17 AM)paloalto Wrote:
(08-04-2020, 07:15 AM)Phogge Wrote: I imagine some schools are terrified but Stanford doesn’t need athletics. There is so much going on in medicine and science and there is no shortage of high school apps.

I agree. If "student" athletes are going to be described as "entertainers" entitled to compensation I say eliminate all varsity sports; club level only. Let's bring colleges back to academic institutions with the primary focus to provide an academic education.

NFL and NBA can set up farm teams for 17 year old kids who want to be paid for what they do and a stinking quarter million dollar scholarship is not enough

Hear, here. Couldn't agree more.

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - lex24 - 08-04-2020

(08-04-2020, 11:21 AM)Giants Wrote:
(08-04-2020, 08:17 AM)paloalto Wrote:
(08-04-2020, 07:15 AM)Phogge Wrote: I imagine some schools are terrified but Stanford doesn’t need athletics. There is so much going on in medicine and science and there is no shortage of high school apps.

I agree. If "student" athletes are going to be described as "entertainers" entitled to compensation I say eliminate all varsity sports; club level only. Let's bring colleges back to academic institutions with the primary focus to provide an academic education.

NFL and NBA can set up farm teams for 17 year old kids who want to be paid for what they do and a stinking quarter million dollar scholarship is not enough

The NBA established a structure that allows guys to go directly from HS to pro hoops beginning with the 2020-21 season.

Pro football? Nah. Why bother when the SEC is happy to function in that capacity with no charge to the NFL.

Not to defend the NFL, but not many 18 year olds are physically ready for the NFL.

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - Spiny_Norman - 08-05-2020

Former Stanford Daily sports editor Mark Ziegler (now with the San Diego Union Tribune) weighs in.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2020-08-03/zeigler-college-football-sports-pac-12-demands-boycott-pay-players-title-ix-ncaa

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - chrisk - 08-05-2020

(08-05-2020, 04:37 PM)Spiny_Norman Wrote: Former Stanford Daily sports editor Mark Ziegler (now with the San Diego Union Tribune) weighs in.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2020-08-03/zeigler-college-football-sports-pac-12-demands-boycott-pay-players-title-ix-ncaa

Stanford and some private P5 schools could pivot to an Ivy League model, but for the top 20-30 P5 schools that is not likely to be a realistic option.

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - doubledub - 08-05-2020

Such vitriol for the athletes who are trying to get a slice of the pie because they are the ones putting their (mostly Black) bodies on the line for the (mostly white) multimillionaire coaches while the (mostly white) wealthy boosters cheer for more. Can't you hear yourselves as you chant "let's keep the system the same and keep them in their place"? I agree that they are entitled...they are entitled to fight for what they believe in and stop being treated like chattel. And to the point that most of them couldn't get in to college but for football...why don't you ask why that is? As if grades and test scores were the definitive measure of talent, intelligence and potential.

Unbelievable. But then again, believable, because I heard all this when I was student.

(08-05-2020, 05:47 PM)chrisk Wrote:
(08-05-2020, 04:37 PM)Spiny_Norman Wrote: Former Stanford Daily sports editor Mark Ziegler (now with the San Diego Union Tribune) weighs in.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2020-08-03/zeigler-college-football-sports-pac-12-demands-boycott-pay-players-title-ix-ncaa

Stanford and some private P5 schools could pivot to an Ivy League model, but for the top 20-30 P5 schools that is not likely to be a realistic option.

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - lex24 - 08-05-2020

(08-05-2020, 09:22 PM)doubledub Wrote: Such vitriol for the athletes who are trying to get a slice of the pie because they are the ones putting their (mostly Black) bodies on the line for the (mostly white) multimillionaire coaches while the (mostly white) wealthy boosters cheer for more. Can't you hear yourselves as you chant "let's keep the system the same and keep them in their place"? I agree that they are entitled...they are entitled to fight for what they believe in and stop being treated like chattel. And to the point that most of them couldn't get in to college but for football...why don't you ask why that is? As if grades and test scores were the definitive measure of talent, intelligence and potential.

Unbelievable. But then again, believable, because I heard all this when I was student.

(08-05-2020, 05:47 PM)chrisk Wrote:
(08-05-2020, 04:37 PM)Spiny_Norman Wrote: Former Stanford Daily sports editor Mark Ziegler (now with the San Diego Union Tribune) weighs in.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2020-08-03/zeigler-college-football-sports-pac-12-demands-boycott-pay-players-title-ix-ncaa

Stanford and some private P5 schools could pivot to an Ivy League model, but for the top 20-30 P5 schools that is not likely to be a realistic option.

Some of the “demands” I agree with. Others I don’t. Which I think is what most on this board have stated.

Revenue sharing simply is not going to happen. Saying so isn’t vitriolic. It’s just a fact. It would be the demise of college football. And maybe that’s fine. But I’m not sure that wouldn’t harm more people than it helps. I suppose the NFL could have the equivalent of the NBA’s development league. But that will apply to precious few. The rest will be done after their HS careers end.

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - Spiny_Norman - 08-05-2020

(08-05-2020, 09:22 PM)doubledub Wrote: Such vitriol for the athletes who are trying to get a slice of the pie because they are the ones putting their (mostly Black) bodies on the line for the (mostly white) multimillionaire coaches while the (mostly white) wealthy boosters cheer for more. Can't you hear yourselves as you chant "let's keep the system the same and keep them in their place"? I agree that they are entitled...they are entitled to fight for what they believe in and stop being treated like chattel. And to the point that most of them couldn't get in to college but for football...why don't you ask why that is? As if grades and test scores were the definitive measure of talent, intelligence and potential.

Unbelievable. But then again, believable, because I heard all this when I was student.

Well here is a different sports columnist who agrees with you.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2020-08-05/pac-12-players-letter-demands-we-are-united-college-football-boycott

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - winflop - 08-06-2020

(08-05-2020, 09:22 PM)doubledub Wrote: Such vitriol for the athletes who are trying to get a slice of the pie because they are the ones putting their (mostly Black) bodies on the line for the (mostly white) multimillionaire coaches while the (mostly white) wealthy boosters cheer for more. Can't you hear yourselves as you chant "let's keep the system the same and keep them in their place"? I agree that they are entitled...they are entitled to fight for what they believe in and stop being treated like chattel. And to the point that most of them couldn't get in to college but for football...why don't you ask why that is? As if grades and test scores were the definitive measure of talent, intelligence and potential.

Unbelievable. But then again, believable, because I heard all this when I was student.

I don't see people on this board saying that the system should be kept as is, but I do see a number of people who think that the players' "demands" and their approach of "my way or the highway" by calling them demands and saying they'll boycott if they aren't all met are excessive

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - OutsiderFan - 08-06-2020

(08-06-2020, 05:13 AM)winflop Wrote: I don't see people on this board saying that the system should be kept as is, but I do see a number of people who think that the players' "demands" and their approach of "my way or the highway" by calling them demands and saying they'll boycott if they aren't all met are excessive

While it may be is true that all demands will not be met, asking for the moon is a negotiating tactic just like withholding labor is. Now #WeAreUnited has a call with Larry Scott today. This is the power of making large demands, organizing, and unifying. No way they would have this call if a few players just griped to each other. What will happen is anyone's guess, but if the players stay united, they will get a lot of what they want because they have more leverage than most groups moved to seek more rights and compensation.

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - pefloresjr - 08-06-2020

(08-06-2020, 05:50 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:
(08-06-2020, 05:13 AM)winflop Wrote:
I don't see people on this board saying that the system should be kept as is, but I do see a number of people who think that the players' "demands" and their approach of "my way or the highway" by calling them demands and saying they'll boycott if they aren't all met are excessive

While it may be is true that all demands will not be met, asking for the moon is a negotiating tactic just like withholding labor is. Now #WeAreUnited has a call with Larry Scott today. This is the power of making large demands, organizing, and unifying. No way they would have this call if a few players just griped to each other. What will happen is anyone's guess, but if the players stay united, they will get a lot of what they want because they have more leverage than most groups moved to seek more rights and compensation.

I agree. The response of some to this is surprising. There seems to be an underlying response to the temerity of these student athletes for speaking up at all. Some have basically said that an athletic scholarship is more than enough and that the student athletes are ungrateful brats for seeking any improvements.  I find it ironic that one of the responses to the "excessive" demands and threat to boycott of We Are United is to just shut down the athletic scholarships completely. Isn't that just a threat to take away their scholarships and opportunity to enter the hallowed halls of higher education if they don't shut up and accept the deal that is offered to them?

I think there are some similarities to the issues many grad students have raised around the country regarding pay for teaching classes. There is a tradition of having grad students assist professors while they pursue their studies and there can be benefits to the grad students in doing so. However, some institutions and departments have really come to rely on grad students to teach classes for free as part of their basic structure. Some of them are using more and more free labor to improve their balance sheets.  Perhaps the relationship in those situations becomes more of a hybrid student/employee relationship that needs different terms.

Institutions that have almost all the power in a relationship have never ceded that power because the group asking did so with quiet decorum and avoided the use of harsh words like "demands" and "boycott". As I've said before, I don't even agree with all of their demands, but I am proud of them for unifying and fighting for improvements.

Cheers,
Pete F.

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - Phogge - 08-06-2020

As a former NCAA athlete I would like to have been given a stipend even though I played in a non-scholie D2 program. Our meal money on the road was $2 per day. So I have sympathy.

The athlete problem is acerbated by the individuality of the member NCAA institutions. I just can't see Stanford going as far as a school like Alabama where football is SO much more important. We played because it was fun and with a tiny chance of being drafted. My offer was a flat $500 for what amounted to Class D for a three month season plus a 12 year old used car owned by the scout. LOL.

I actually think that club sports and intramurals are enough for a serious university student, especially with all the future implications of brain injury in football. Time for the NFL to pony up for a true development league for those who want to risk the dangers of traumatic injury later in life.

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - Softball Fan - 08-06-2020

(08-06-2020, 10:55 AM)Phogge Wrote: As a former NCAA athlete I would like to have been given a stipend even though I played in a non-scholie D2 program. Our meal money on the road was $2 per day. So I have sympathy.

The athlete problem is acerbated by the individuality of the member NCAA institutions. I just can't see Stanford going as far as a school like Alabama where football is SO much more important. We played because it was fun and with a tiny chance of being drafted. My offer was a flat $500 for what amounted to Class D for a three month season plus a 12 year old used car owned by the scout. LOL.

I actually think that club sports and intramurals are enough for a serious university student, especially with all the future implications of brain injury in football. Time for the NFL to pony up for a true development league for those who want to risk the dangers of traumatic injury later in life.

Yes, I agree with this. It's unfortunate I can't express that opinion without someone indirectly claiming or implying I am a racist for having the viewpoint the main focus of college should be academic education

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - OutsiderFan - 08-06-2020

(08-06-2020, 11:09 AM)paloalto Wrote:
(08-06-2020, 10:55 AM)Phogge Wrote: As a former NCAA athlete I would like to have been given a stipend even though I played in a non-scholie D2 program. Our meal money on the road was $2 per day. So I have sympathy.

The athlete problem is acerbated by the individuality of the member NCAA institutions. I just can't see Stanford going as far as a school like Alabama where football is SO much more important. We played because it was fun and with a tiny chance of being drafted. My offer was a flat $500 for what amounted to Class D for a three month season plus a 12 year old used car owned by the scout. LOL.

I actually think that club sports and intramurals are enough for a serious university student, especially with all the future implications of brain injury in football. Time for the NFL to pony up for a true development league for those who want to risk the dangers of traumatic injury later in life.

Yes, I agree with this. It's unfortunate I can't express that opinion without someone indirectly claiming or implying I am a racist for having the viewpoint the main focus of college should be academic education

I don't think anyone will claim racism for thinking school should be about educating people. It's claiming this while engaging in monetizing college sports as if they were professional, without compensating the labor as professionals, that leads to those accusations.

Everyone will agree that in order to finance sports programs, there has to be monetization of college sports. The question is what is an equitable and agreeable allocation of resources generated from that monetization, between the labor that creates the product on the field, and the schools doing the monetizing.

If Stanford was to say it won't budge on more athlete compensation, is it prepared to sacrifice all the revenue it will lose that it uses to fund other sports? These issues aren't that simple.

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - Phogge - 08-06-2020

Nothing is simple. I have found out that I can live without college sports. I have rediscovered some things in life that I have control over. Truthfully IDGAS what happens with college athletics. I shoot pro football but I don't watch it otherwise. Gone are the days when I could recite the BoSox lineup. 1950's... D. DiMaggio, Piersal, Williams, Jensen, Dropo, Lepico, Niahros, Parnell. If Pedroia is still on the team then I know one current member.

Stanford is faced with a dilemma in regard to Olympic sports funding. To keep them it needs football. If they don't care then dropping football makes sense.

BUT, why should schools fund the NFL's development league without NFL compensation? It's up to the schools to require NFL funding. They probably don't have the guts and solidarity to do so.

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - BostonCard - 08-06-2020

(08-06-2020, 01:55 PM)Phogge Wrote: BUT, why should schools fund the NFL's development league without NFL compensation? It's up to the schools to require NFL funding. They probably don't have the guts and solidarity to do so.

I can give you more than 43,744,639 reasons why Stanford keeps a college football team (that was back in 2016; it's undoubtably more now). Sadly, the reasons fund the NFL's development league is that they get millions of dollars for it. It's a financial win/win scenario; schools bring in crap-tons of money and the NFL saves a crap-ton of money by not having to subsidize a development league. Unfortunately, schools have to sell their soul in order to do it.

I am increasingly with you; I may be over college football. Nine months ago, the idea of not having a college football season would have been unthinkable. Now, going ahead with the season seems wrong.

BC

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - Mick - 08-06-2020

(08-06-2020, 10:55 AM)Phogge Wrote: I actually think that club sports and intramurals are enough for a serious university student, especially with all the future implications of brain injury in football. Time for the NFL to pony up for a true development league for those who want to risk the dangers of traumatic injury later in life.

You're absolutely right, Phogge. Sign me up.

RE: Pac-12 (Football) Players Demands - teejers1 - 08-06-2020

(08-06-2020, 11:09 AM)paloalto Wrote:
(08-06-2020, 10:55 AM)Phogge Wrote: As a former NCAA athlete I would like to have been given a stipend even though I played in a non-scholie D2 program. Our meal money on the road was $2 per day. So I have sympathy.

The athlete problem is acerbated by the individuality of the member NCAA institutions. I just can't see Stanford going as far as a school like Alabama where football is SO much more important. We played because it was fun and with a tiny chance of being drafted. My offer was a flat $500 for what amounted to Class D for a three month season plus a 12 year old used car owned by the scout. LOL.

I actually think that club sports and intramurals are enough for a serious university student, especially with all the future implications of brain injury in football. Time for the NFL to pony up for a true development league for those who want to risk the dangers of traumatic injury later in life.

Yes, I agree with this. It's unfortunate I can't express that opinion without someone indirectly claiming or implying I am a racist for having the viewpoint the main focus of college should be academic education

Exactly.
But then again, dropping the race card often is the desperate move of those without further argument. It often is the nuclear option . . . and . . . well . . . there you have it.

The sad thing (for me, anyway) is that I'm being persuaded more and more by the "no scholarships at all" camp for colleges. Club and intramural sports should suffice for the mission of institutions of higher education.

But in all events, the NFL should most definitely pony up and fund their own, separate Development League. I don't understand why anyone would oppose forcing that option (or at least trying to).