Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - Printable Version
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RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - BostonCard - 02-13-2021
It has been five years since Haase replaced Dawkins. There are no holdovers left from then. I think it is time to stop blaming Dawkins for Haase's shortcomings.
I agree Haase is not going to be fired after the season, and I hope he turns things around and proves me wrong.
BC
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - winflop - 02-13-2021
(02-12-2021, 07:34 PM)AlbanyCardinal Wrote: I honestly can't see how anybody could equate Dawkins's program with Haase's. Apples and oranges to me, irrespective of records and tournaments. Dawkins inherited a Sweet Sixteen program. What did Haase inherit? There are other factors, such as the transfer portal, which makes Stanford's job harder overall, especially in hoops, but mainly I wonder if we've all seen the same games these past 12 years or so.
I've been plenty disappointed with Haase's program, especially after '18-'19 and the second half of '19-'20. For me, there's little to no excuse for last season's precipitous fall, b/c we all know Stanford wouldn't have made the tourney without Covid. I see patterns that I don't like, and I'm not as confident as I once was that Haase will fully right the ship on the Farm. But I know this much: firing Haase after this season makes zero sense and would set the program back so far.
I'm not one to make a lot of excuses for Dawkins but the cupboard was actually left quite bare for him. I think three of the five starters from the previous season were gone including the Lopi, as well as at least one contributor off the bench.
I think Haase is a better coach than Dawkins, but the results aren't there to indicate that he's better enough. I'm not sure the team would have made the tournament last year after their lackluster finish, and if we see a similar fade to black this season I think serious questions need to start being asked.
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - oldalum - 02-13-2021
The conundrum about Haase is that, at least to outsider me, everything about him and his program seems terrific in every respect--except for the overall results.
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - JohnR34231 - 02-13-2021
(02-13-2021, 09:17 AM)oldalum Wrote: The conundrum about Haase is that, at least to outsider me, everything about him and his program seems terrific in every respect--except for the overall results.
Yeah, that's the reason I think a lot of people give him a pass for his mediocre records. There are many coaches to whom they would not be so forgiving.
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - AlbanyCardinal - 02-13-2021
Good points here and above. I don't disagree. My hunch is most of us love his recruiting. Getting one-and-done 5-stars and diamonds in the ruff is hard to swing at Stanford. To me that counts for a lot. I also tend to favor his disciplined defense-first approach -- I think that's a good fit for Stanford hoops generally. And, yes, he puts a good face on the program, as mentioned. But I've pulled my hair out, too, over certain issues on offense and, of course, the results, in particular the last few years.
Since Stanford won't make a change imminently, however, and since the program seems close (but admittedly has seemed close for a while now), I feel I have no choice but to hope it comes together for him. The alternative, which I agree may become necessary if the results don't materialize sooner than later, is something this fan can't yet face. B/c, let's face it, it takes a perfect storm for Stanford to build a strong hoops program, especially in this moment.
(02-13-2021, 09:17 AM)oldalum Wrote: The conundrum about Haase is that, at least to outsider me, everything about him and his program seems terrific in every respect--except for the overall results.
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - BobK - 02-13-2021
Haase isn’t going anywhere. Question is their a poster here who would have accepted less than a 4 or 5 year contract to come to Stanford post Dawkins? Probably only me lol. So Haase has almost certainly been extended. Would Ingram come to Stanford thinking the staff would be around ? Really?
So we are talking a buy out of 3-4 or so years. Not happening
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - Papa John - 02-13-2021
Stanford has not had its original set of five starters in a loooong time. I'm going to hold off on a post-mortem until the season is over, or at least until we have our regular starting lineup with a couple of games under their belt.
Let's see what happens with games still remaining versus Oregon and USC.
Right now, though, I agree that Colorado is better and a bad matchup for Stanford.
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - AlbanyCardinal - 02-13-2021
Let's see what happens tonight, for that matter. Must-win against Utah, no excuses.
(02-13-2021, 10:43 AM)Papa John Wrote: Stanford has not had its original set of five starters in a loooong time. I'm going to hold off on a post-mortem until the season is over, or at least until we have our regular starting lineup with a couple of games under their belt.
Let's see what happens with games still remaining versus Oregon and USC.
Right now, though, I agree that Colorado is better and a bad matchup for Stanford.
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - BillBradley - 02-13-2021
Haase is an excellent recruiter, motivator, and defensive coach. The hurdle he needs to get over is offensive production. Really tough to win these days without shooters, especially at Stanford IMO. Haase has had some success getting great athletes, but so often the team looks like a bad AAU team offensively. Dribbling into traffic, poor passing, poor spacing, poor shooting...Assuming there aren't any more twin 7 footers out there for us, I'm feeling like Haase should be able to get more Spencer Jones types. Big, good defender, rebounder, but can also shoot. Tough for smallish guards like White or Taites to get lots of good looks in the P12. Until he fixes the offensive production though, we're not going to be winning any conference titles IMO.
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - gailtate - 02-13-2021
(02-12-2021, 09:08 PM)BobK Wrote: Haase is not going to be fired. The buyout is way to much to even consider
But we aren’t playing better than the Dawkins years.
Dawkins took over a team than had just lost the Lopez twins.
As it's going , it feels like this program will likely require new leadership. Whether it's Muir or his successor is anybody's guess; but who on this board is really confident that Haase can make Stanford a perennial presence in the Tournament?? It's not a weak program, certainly, but nowhere close to special. It's just isn't. It's as "good" as its record.
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - Bampa - 02-13-2021
I have never seen the kind of recruits the program has started to obtain. I think it is only a matter of time to see a substantial impact on the win/loss record.
I vote for giving coach more time.
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - PVTree - 02-13-2021
(02-13-2021, 05:25 PM)Bampa Wrote: I have never seen the kind of recruits the program has started to obtain. I think it is only a matter of time to see a substantial impact on the win/loss record.
I vote for giving coach more time.
What Bampa said.
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - Brickcity - 02-13-2021
(02-13-2021, 05:32 PM)PVTree Wrote:(02-13-2021, 05:25 PM)Bampa Wrote: I have never seen the kind of recruits the program has started to obtain. I think it is only a matter of time to see a substantial impact on the win/loss record.
I vote for giving coach more time.
What Bampa said.
Yep. As someone else noted, Haase gets his teams to play hard, and when they're reasonably healthy, they play great defense. Last year with a great point guard talent, we saw it begin to come together. We've seen plenty of signs of it this year too. I have a really hard time believing it won't all come together at some point given the talent he's brining in - might just have to wait another year or two, as frustrating as that is.
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - Farm93 - 02-13-2021
(02-13-2021, 05:49 PM)Brickcity Wrote:I am willing to give every coach a pass here in the 2020-2021 season given the COVID complexities. I thought that before the SCC restrictions that unfortunately seem certain to negatively impact almost every Stanford team this year. The impact of the SCC restrictions should mean this academic year should not be used against any Stanford coach.(02-13-2021, 05:32 PM)PVTree Wrote:(02-13-2021, 05:25 PM)Bampa Wrote: I have never seen the kind of recruits the program has started to obtain. I think it is only a matter of time to see a substantial impact on the win/loss record.
I vote for giving coach more time.
What Bampa said.
Yep. As someone else noted, Haase gets his teams to play hard, and when they're reasonably healthy, they play great defense. Last year with a great point guard talent, we saw it begin to come together. We've seen plenty of signs of it this year too. I have a really hard time believing it won't all come together at some point given the talent he's brining in - might just have to wait another year or two, as frustrating as that is.
However, I have seen the wait another year or two a few too many years to willingly accept a wait and see view at this point. The talent Haase is recruiting simply should be better than the NCAA bubble.
I know in other sports Stanford fans are often happy to see other Pac-12 schools keep mediocre coaches that consistently squander good talent when that helped Stanford. As I look across Pac-12 basketball I can only assume that fans of other Pac-12 schools will be delighted for Haase to stay at The Farm for "another year or two" or more.
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - VB Card - 02-13-2021
(02-13-2021, 06:20 PM)Farm93 Wrote:(02-13-2021, 05:49 PM)Brickcity Wrote:I am willing to give every coach a pass here in the 2020-2021 season given the COVID complexities. I thought that before the SCC restrictions that unfortunately seem certain to negatively impact almost every Stanford team this year. The impact of the SCC restrictions should mean this academic year should not be used against any Stanford coach.(02-13-2021, 05:32 PM)PVTree Wrote:(02-13-2021, 05:25 PM)Bampa Wrote: I have never seen the kind of recruits the program has started to obtain. I think it is only a matter of time to see a substantial impact on the win/loss record.
I vote for giving coach more time.
What Bampa said.
Yep. As someone else noted, Haase gets his teams to play hard, and when they're reasonably healthy, they play great defense. Last year with a great point guard talent, we saw it begin to come together. We've seen plenty of signs of it this year too. I have a really hard time believing it won't all come together at some point given the talent he's brining in - might just have to wait another year or two, as frustrating as that is.
However, I have seen the wait another year or two a few too many years to willingly accept a wait and see view at this point. The talent Haase is recruiting simply should be better than the NCAA bubble.
I know in other sports Stanford fans are often happy to see other Pac-12 schools keep mediocre coaches that consistently squander good talent when that helped Stanford. As I look across Pac-12 basketball I can only assume that fans of other Pac-12 schools will be delighted for Haase to stay at The Farm for "another year or two" or more.
People are aware that 3 of the top 4 players on this team (including one who will be a top 10 pick in June's NBA Draft) missed 5+ games during the toughest stretch of the schedule, correct? Not to mention that Haase is bringing in another Top 15 recruiting class for next season? If he fails to make the tournament next season then we can start asking questions, but there's just been too much out of his control this year to "not give him more time".
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - BostonCard - 02-13-2021
(02-13-2021, 05:25 PM)Bampa Wrote: I have never seen the kind of recruits the program has started to obtain. I think it is only a matter of time to see a substantial impact on the win/loss record.
I vote for giving coach more time.
Not sure what having gotten a 5* mega-whale like Williams bought us. Unless he surprises and comes back, or goes on a tremendous run to end the year, we will wind up having gotten one year of a solid but unspectacular Pac-12 starter. He's averaging 12.1 ppg (fourth on a somewhat offensively challenged team), 5.5 rpg, and 2.6 apg while leading the team in turnovers. He is shooting 36.8% (31.1% from 3). That's fine for a freshman, but unless he sticks around, his career contributions will be well behind his recruiting hype, and well short of what we need to reach the NCAA tournament. And because he is unlikely to stick around, it is not a matter of time before we see a substantial impact of recruiting on win/loss record, because we are not getting the sort of transformational play from whales or the development from veterans that we need. In fact, unless he Williams surprises us by coming back, losing him, Da Silva, and probably Davis means we are likely to take a step back next year. And then this time next year we will be right back where we started, but talking about Harrison Ingram instead of Ziaire Williams.
BC
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - Goose - 02-13-2021
(02-13-2021, 07:55 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Not sure what having gotten a 5* mega-whale like Williams bought us. Unless he surprises and comes back, or goes on a tremendous run to end the year, we will wind up having gotten one year of a solid but unspectacular Pac-12 starter. He's averaging 12.1 ppg (fourth on a somewhat offensively challenged team), 5.5 rpg, and 2.6 apg while leading the team in turnovers. He is shooting 36.8% (31.1% from 3). That's fine for a freshman, but unless he sticks around, his career contributions will be well behind his recruiting hype, and well short of what we need to reach the NCAA tournament.I am glad somebody finally said that. I wish the young man well, but he really hasn't "delivered" much. The COVID-19 situation probably is a big factor. The level of preparation undoubtedly was not what it would have been in a "normal" year. That said, I expect better numbers from a "mega whale". It has been said Dean Smith was the only one who could keep MJ below 30 ppg. OK, but he got his 20+. That is the kind of production I would expect for someone who has that much hype. Maybe not Jordanesque, but up there, especially on a team who needs all the offense it can get.
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - AlbanyCardinal - 02-13-2021
The more NBA-bound players Stanford lands, the better. Period. Even losing Tyrell Terry as early as we did has had its advantages -- recruits notice that Stanford is drawing talent that ends up signing rich contracts to play in the League. That's contagious. As for ZW, some 5* are more equipped to hit the ground running than others, but you welcome them with open arms each and every time. And even with some of his liabilities, he's a first-year still getting 12+ points/game and is obviously someone you want playing on your side.
(02-13-2021, 07:55 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(02-13-2021, 05:25 PM)Bampa Wrote: I have never seen the kind of recruits the program has started to obtain. I think it is only a matter of time to see a substantial impact on the win/loss record.
I vote for giving coach more time.
Not sure what having gotten a 5* mega-whale like Williams bought us. Unless he surprises and comes back, or goes on a tremendous run to end the year, we will wind up having gotten one year of a solid but unspectacular Pac-12 starter. He's averaging 12.1 ppg (fourth on a somewhat offensively challenged team), 5.5 rpg, and 2.6 apg while leading the team in turnovers. He is shooting 36.8% (31.1% from 3). That's fine for a freshman, but unless he sticks around, his career contributions will be well behind his recruiting hype, and well short of what we need to reach the NCAA tournament. And because he is unlikely to stick around, it is not a matter of time before we see a substantial impact of recruiting on win/loss record, because we are not getting the sort of transformational play from whales or the development from veterans that we need. In fact, unless he Williams surprises us by coming back, losing him, Da Silva, and probably Davis means we are likely to take a step back next year. And then this time next year we will be right back where we started, but talking about Harrison Ingram instead of Ziaire Williams.
BC
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - Goose - 02-13-2021
(02-13-2021, 09:10 PM)AlbanyCardinal Wrote: The more NBA-bound players Stanford lands, the better. Period. Even losing Tyrell Terry as early as we did has had its advantages -- recruits notice that Stanford is drawing talent that ends up signing rich contracts to play in the League. That's contagious. As for ZW, some 5* are more equipped to hit the ground running than others, but you welcome them with open arms each and every time. And even with some of his liabilities, he's a first-year still getting 12+ points/game and is obviously someone you want playing on your side.
I understand your point. I don't agree with the "period" part. Stanford needs all the help it can get. If we have a "one and done" that can carry the team all by themselves, it is for sure worth it. Anything less has to be carefully evaluated. How many games is the guy going to win for us that we wouldn't win with an alternative player that may help develop a tight group that can be lots better next year? If we were pretty good already and had a missing piece, any way we can get that piece may be worth it. When we are not that good and possibly missing a lot of pieces it always has to be a "compared to what?" question, IMHO. It is hard to do, because with all freshmen you don't know what you are actually going to get. It is also different if it is a guy who is for sure "one and done" from day one vs a guy like Terry who only left because he had shown so much. Very different cases.
RE: Men's BB: STAN 51 CO 69 - BostonCard - 02-13-2021
(02-13-2021, 09:10 PM)AlbanyCardinal Wrote: The more NBA-bound players Stanford lands, the better. Period. Even losing Tyrell Terry as early as we did has had its advantages -- recruits notice that Stanford is drawing talent that ends up signing rich contracts to play in the League. That's contagious. As for ZW, some 5* are more equipped to hit the ground running than others, but you welcome them with open arms each and every time. And even with some of his liabilities, he's a first-year still getting 12+ points/game and is obviously someone you want playing on your side.
(02-13-2021, 07:55 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(02-13-2021, 05:25 PM)Bampa Wrote: I have never seen the kind of recruits the program has started to obtain. I think it is only a matter of time to see a substantial impact on the win/loss record.
I vote for giving coach more time.
Not sure what having gotten a 5* mega-whale like Williams bought us. Unless he surprises and comes back, or goes on a tremendous run to end the year, we will wind up having gotten one year of a solid but unspectacular Pac-12 starter. He's averaging 12.1 ppg (fourth on a somewhat offensively challenged team), 5.5 rpg, and 2.6 apg while leading the team in turnovers. He is shooting 36.8% (31.1% from 3). That's fine for a freshman, but unless he sticks around, his career contributions will be well behind his recruiting hype, and well short of what we need to reach the NCAA tournament. And because he is unlikely to stick around, it is not a matter of time before we see a substantial impact of recruiting on win/loss record, because we are not getting the sort of transformational play from whales or the development from veterans that we need. In fact, unless he Williams surprises us by coming back, losing him, Da Silva, and probably Davis means we are likely to take a step back next year. And then this time next year we will be right back where we started, but talking about Harrison Ingram instead of Ziaire Williams.
BC
"Recruiting begets recruiting" is meaningless unless recruiting begets wins.
BC