MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - Printable Version
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RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - PVTree - 03-04-2021
Not getting a good vibe from all this. As a senior (Davis), I would not be very happy that a coach's decision kept me out of my last few games. Same for an upperclassman (Wills).
This being a disciplinary issue seems to make sense. Bumps and bruises keeping a senior and junior out doesn't. If he were injured, I think they would say so (without getting into detail).
Someone mentioned that if Ziaire does go pro, will we be missing out based on what he has produced this year?
Obviously, he's not had the year he and most of us expected, but we have seen enough to know that he is capable of fulfilling his potential.
I hope he stays, but staying another year may completely erase "the great potential" label that many NBA teams believe he has. Also, if there's any truth to the speculation that there's trouble/disagreement between Coach Haase and some players, it may be another reason for him to leave (won't want to get in the dog house in the future).
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - winflop - 03-04-2021
Last night felt like the team gave a collective IDGAF. I remember wondering at the end of last season if Haase had lost the team the way they played down the stretch, and am wondering the same now. The vague answers postgame about Davis & Wills do not instill confidence.
I think it will be very telling what Williams does after the season. I can't see him going pro and being a first-round pick. He might transfer, which would be a terrible indication that Haase has really lost the team.
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - Farm93 - 03-04-2021
I just have to remind myself that I started the year believing Stanford coaches should not be fired this year because of the quirky challenges of COVID protocols in SCC.
However, this is all too familiar in the Haase era with teams struggling at the end of games and at the end of seasons.
Coach Haase sounds like a great individual, a great fit for Stanford and one that has been able to recruit at Stanford those are precious things. Still, the inability to finish games and seasons is really tough to overlook.
WVB and WSoc struggles illustrate the COVID-19 protocol challenges can impact any Stanford program, so by that standard men's hoops had a good season given the SCC protocols. And yet, for men's hoops I am having a tough time because the struggles in the 2020-2021 season were present before this year too.
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - winflop - 03-04-2021
(03-04-2021, 07:28 AM)Farm93 Wrote: I just have to remind myself that I started the year believing Stanford coaches should not be fired this year because of the quirky challenges of COVID protocols in SCC.
However, this is all too familiar in the Haase era with teams struggling at the end of games and at the end of seasons.
Coach Haase sounds like a great individual, a great fit for Stanford and one that has been able to recruit at Stanford those are precious things. Still, the inability to finish games and seasons is really tough to overlook.
WVB and WSoc struggles illustrate the COVID-19 protocol challenges can impact any Stanford program, so by that standard men's hoops had a good season given the SCC protocols. And yet, for men's hoops I am having a tough time because the struggles in the 2020-2021 season were present before this year too.
WVB & WSoc struggles have a lot to do with major roster turnover. Haase has no such excuse.
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - burger - 03-04-2021
I just want to point out that Davis was inactive earlier this season for "Conduct that does not meet program standards" or something like that, and this was announced prior to the game.
No such announcement last night. Haase just benched them. If I am a prospect considering Stanford, what does that sort of action by a coach say to me? Nothing good, that's for sure.
Would it be possible to replace Haase before next week? I'd like to end the season on a positive note.
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - BostonCard - 03-04-2021
Also, VB and Soccer won a national championship last year! I'm thinking that ought to buy the coaches of those respective sports some goodwill, and we might be willing to grant those coaches the benefit of the doubt for a bad year. Men's basketball hasn't even made the tournament during Haase's tenure. The pattern we are witnessing this year is nothing new; there is no need to invoke the pandemic to explain the team's struggles and late season swoon, it is a signature of the Haase tenure.
I don't expect Haase to be fired this year for a number of reasons. I don't think another year will make much of a difference, but I'll allow hope to spring eternal and tell myself that maybe Ingram will be the player to lead Stanford back to relevance.
BC
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - gailtate - 03-04-2021
Please. The Covid alibi has worn thin. Look around. Good teams and good coaches win consistently, no matter what. it's what makes them winners. Case in point: Tara and her Stanford Women. Haase and his teams have consistently fizzled for five years. If it's not one thing it's something else. Yo, Bernie, you awake? Tarps at Maples next year?
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - oldalum - 03-04-2021
seems like Muir needs to interview each player on the team to find out what's going on from their perspective.
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - BobK - 03-04-2021
I would think not practicing for months after winning a championship would buy more than some goodwill. That’s harsh
Williams must go pro. He’s regressing badly. He’s still a potential lottery pick. The pros will say poor coaching.
I still believe firing Haase will require a big buyout. The Board that cut 11 sports isn’t going to approve.
Last night was awful. Terrible and yes what ever is going on must be stopped
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - AlbanyCardinal - 03-04-2021
Beat me to it, oldalum. Ever since WSU, I've thought the same thing. Interview each player, and try to get to the bottom of the stink in the air. If the core's rotten, then Stanford should have no choice but to fire him, no matter the pandemic or the finances of it. Doubt Muir will take that approach.
(03-04-2021, 08:29 AM)oldalum Wrote: seems like Muir needs to interview each player on the team to find out what's going on from their perspective.
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - BostonCard - 03-04-2021
(03-04-2021, 08:32 AM)BobK Wrote: I would think not practicing for months after winning a championship would buy more than some goodwill. That’s harsh
Williams must go pro. He’s regressing badly. He’s still a potential lottery pick. The pros will say poor coaching.
I still believe firing Haase will require a big buyout. The Board that cut 11 sports isn’t going to approve.
Last night was awful. Terrible and yes what ever is going on must be stopped
When even Bob is this dour, Haase has lost the plot.
BC
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - BobK - 03-04-2021
Thankfully softball and baseball today with WBB
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - oldalum - 03-04-2021
I've had MBB season tickets for decades--4 seats so we could invite friends to join us. Dropped 2 seats a couple of years ago because no one wanted to go to the games with us (maybe it was us, but not a good sign either way). Probably going to drop the remaining two for next season.
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - Goose - 03-04-2021
I was concerned when we had the three starting players out injured earlier in the year that we were building towards a problem. The team actually played better IMHO than when they were present. Whether that level of play could have been sustained is an open question, but it did create an interesting situation when the players returned. Who gets to play? This was not the first team to have major problems with that re-integration of former starters returning from injury.
Coach Haase may not have handled the situation well. That may bear some scrutiny. Some players also may not have handled it well. The trajectory of Williams is also a bit of a puzzle. My personal bias leads me to expect that problems were inevitable for a "one and done" with this Stanford Team. From the beginning it was pretty clear that da Silva was intended to be the offensive focus of the team, and probably rightly so. If you are "one and done" you don't want that. You want to be the focus of the team. If you are good enough to outshine da Silva,you can shift the focus to yourself. However, if you feel that you don't have a fair chance, or simply aren't good enough, it won't happen. Making this situation work out so that nobody feels slighted is probably impossible in the best of times. When a team is not winning and appears fragmented things will just go down hill. That is where we are.
I think Coach Haase isn't the type who will turn his program over to a freshman "one and done", no matter who the guy is. Normally at Stanford that isn't an issue. It may have been this year, I don't know. This is not to say Williams was a "bad" guy, but rather to say his intended career path probably didn't fit real well with how the team is coached and "run". It is equally true that any player in their last year with the program really has no objective reason to care about the future of the team. It is only about the present. Your personal goals may not match the team goals. Even if they do match, you may think the coach is not going in the "right" direction. You have no more time to convince him of that fact. That can often be a source of discontent among the seniors. It may be that everybody involved is actually acting rationally given their own situation. It unfortunately may not lead to a very good basketball team.
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - BillBradley - 03-04-2021
How about this: Haase just grew tired of playing with a thin/injured lineup and tossed this game against USC in favor of rest for all. Maybe Davis and Wills are just not healthy enough to be playing yet. In the WSU game, an average P12 guard goes for 40, with a lot of them on Wills. In the OSU game, he again was clearly not his normal defensive-stopper-self. Also in the OSU game, Davis is not giving his all (maybe he's at 70% or something like that) so Haase pulls him out. So, instead of burning them this week too, he decides to give them 10+ days of rest for a final push in the P12 tourney where the full squad *might* be healthy for the first time in months. Whacky, but plausible?
Williams is gone. Talent and youth trump all in the NBA. His draft stock might drop some with his sub-par year (a la McDaniels who fell from lottery to near the end of Round 1). It's too risky these days for an elite body to burn another year in college.
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - AlbanyCardinal - 03-04-2021
I suppose it's possible, and the thought did cross my mind when I saw Wills cheering on his mates. That would be fairly sensible, since even with BW and DD on the floor, Stanford would have lost last night. But even if so, certain personnel choices still don't add up, namely benching ZW for the second half and OTs at WSU, a game that would have been won had Stanford been deeper in crunch time (or had coach called for a foul at the end of regulation).
In any case, I hope the team is fully rested and healthy for the conference tourney.
(03-04-2021, 10:03 AM)BillBradley Wrote: How about this: Haase just grew tired of playing with a thin/injured lineup and tossed this game against USC in favor of rest for all. Maybe Davis and Wills are just not healthy enough to be playing yet. In the WSU game, an average P12 guard goes for 40, with a lot of them on Wills. In the OSU game, he again was clearly not his normal defensive-stopper-self. Also in the OSU game, Davis is not giving his all (maybe he's at 70% or something like that) so Haase pulls him out. So, instead of burning them this week too, he decides to give them 10+ days of rest for a final push in the P12 tourney where the full squad *might* be healthy for the first time in months. Whacky, but plausible?
Williams is gone. Talent and youth trump all in the NBA. His draft stock might drop some with his sub-par year (a la McDaniels who fell from lottery to near the end of Round 1). It's too risky these days for an elite body to burn another year in college.
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - winflop - 03-04-2021
(03-04-2021, 10:03 AM)BillBradley Wrote: Maybe Davis and Wills are just not healthy enough to be playing yet.
If that were the case, Haase would have announced that before the game like he did with da Silva. Instead, we got some mumbo jumbo about "cohesion" in the postgame presser. It's not a good look.
I don't expect any of us to know what's going on, but Muir had damn well know what's going or find out if he doesn't. It's his job to know. All I know is that it just smells increasingly bad after each of the last four games.
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - DC 86 - 03-04-2021
(03-04-2021, 05:27 AM)winflop Wrote: I think it will be very telling what Williams does after the season. I can't see him going pro and being a first-round pick. He might transfer, which would be a terrible indication that Haase has really lost the team.
Sam Vecenie (The Athletic) has been the most plugged in NBA draft prognosticator in recent years and he ranked Ziaire #6 on his personal board three days ago and wrote that (referring to teams/coaches agents) "some have him as high as #6 while others have him as low as the end of the lottery."
Others in the last two weeks:
NBC Sports (two days ago) has him going #6 overall.
ESPN (one day ago): #8 overall.
CBSSports.com: #11 overall.
NBADraft.net #6 overall.
USA Today: #10 overall.
NBADraftroom.com: #11 overall.
These aren't cherry picked; I couldn't find anyone that has him going later than #11 overall.
NBA teams draft on potential, not college production. Patrick Williams was drafted #4 overall last year after averaging 9/4 as a 6-8 forward. Williams is averaging 11/5, although that's irrelevant. Wiseman and Ball (#2 and #3) played a total of three college games.
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - Goose - 03-04-2021
(03-04-2021, 11:17 AM)winflop Wrote:(03-04-2021, 10:03 AM)BillBradley Wrote: Maybe Davis and Wills are just not healthy enough to be playing yet.
If that were the case, Haase would have announced that before the game like he did with da Silva. Instead, we got some mumbo jumbo about "cohesion" in the postgame presser. It's not a good look.
I don't expect any of us to know what's going on, but Muir had damn well know what's going or find out if he doesn't. It's his job to know. All I know is that it just smells increasingly bad after each of the last four games.
What we see in the next game will tell us a lot. It may be there is a fracture in the team that can't be repaired. We will know by who plays and for how long. It is always possible that da Silva will still be hurt, in which case what we saw against U$C may repeat. If it does, there is going to need to be some real soul searching in the program. If da Silva plays, who else is out there? It may be that some personnel decisions have already been made that just haven't been announced as such. It also may be based on what "works" in the given game. Against U$C, nothing did.
RE: MBB: STAN vs USC (blowout loss) - donkey687 - 03-04-2021
(03-04-2021, 11:23 AM)DC 86 Wrote:(03-04-2021, 05:27 AM)winflop Wrote: I think it will be very telling what Williams does after the season. I can't see him going pro and being a first-round pick. He might transfer, which would be a terrible indication that Haase has really lost the team.
Sam Vecenie (The Athletic) has been the most plugged in NBA draft prognosticator in recent years and he ranked Ziaire #6 on his personal board three days ago and wrote that (referring to teams/coaches agents) "some have him as high as #6 while others have him as low as the end of the lottery."
Others in the last two weeks:
NBC Sports (two days ago) has him going #6 overall.
ESPN (one day ago): #8 overall.
CBSSports.com: #11 overall.
NBADraft.net #6 overall.
USA Today: #10 overall.
NBADraftroom.com: #11 overall.
These aren't cherry picked; I couldn't find anyone that has him going later than #11 overall.
NBA teams draft on potential, not college production. Patrick Williams was drafted #4 overall last year after averaging 9/4 as a 6-8 forward. Williams is averaging 11/5, although that's irrelevant. Wiseman and Ball (#2 and #3) played a total of three college games.
Do any of those sites really have true current knowledge and opinions of NBA scouts? Last year at this time Nico Mannion was a projected lottery pick. I can't imagine a NBA general manager who runs a team that didn't make the playoffs using their most precious asset (lottery pick) on Williams. He seems like a better fit with a team drafting later in Round 1 with a full roster that can stash him as a two way player in the G league to get more experience. https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wizards/arizonas-nico-mannion-likely-lottery-pick-declares-nba-draft