McKee Starting at USC - Printable Version
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RE: McKee Starting at USC - winflop - 09-09-2021
(09-08-2021, 10:14 PM)lex24 Wrote:(09-08-2021, 09:44 PM)winflop Wrote:(09-08-2021, 06:20 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(09-08-2021, 05:16 PM)winflop Wrote: I said it cost us a MAXIMUM of one game this time. I don't know whether the result would have been different if McKee had played the whole game. I doubt it, but it's possible.6
This has nothing to do with West's prior starts.
Shaw's prior bad decisions on QB cost us multiple games.
I read "The other two times it cost multiple games" to be "the other two times that Shaw started West".
You might be right about 2012 (we lost 20-13 at Notre Dame and 17-13 at Washington, both games where QB play sucked). Then again, right before the Notre Dame game, Nunes posted this line against Arizona: 21/34 (62%), 360 yards (10.6 ypa), 2 TD, 0 INT PER of 170 in a game we won 54-48. Would Hogan have won that game for us?
Similar situation in the Burns to Chryst transition. We lost 10-5 against Colorado in a miserable game for Burns, but would Chryst have beaten K State?
BC
Sorry for the confusion.
I meant the other two times Shaw stupidly picked the veteran over the better player. Or was it three other times?
So, you know for a fact that Hogan was ready week one in ‘12. Wow. Amazing. How? I’ll answer that. You have no clue. But of course, they ran the table once he started. So certainly they would have been undefeated had he only started week one. Right? Sure. I mean, how can one prove otherwise. It’s great to be able to have such clarity…..
Didn't say I did. But what I do know is the guy he picked stunk up the joint, and the guy who replaced him didn't. And the gap was so substantial that it's good enough for me to conclude that Shaw made a stupid decision. And he's now done it three times.
RE: McKee Starting at USC - CardinalSagehen - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 12:49 PM)winflop Wrote:(09-08-2021, 10:14 PM)lex24 Wrote:(09-08-2021, 09:44 PM)winflop Wrote:(09-08-2021, 06:20 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(09-08-2021, 05:16 PM)winflop Wrote: I said it cost us a MAXIMUM of one game this time. I don't know whether the result would have been different if McKee had played the whole game. I doubt it, but it's possible.6
This has nothing to do with West's prior starts.
Shaw's prior bad decisions on QB cost us multiple games.
I read "The other two times it cost multiple games" to be "the other two times that Shaw started West".
You might be right about 2012 (we lost 20-13 at Notre Dame and 17-13 at Washington, both games where QB play sucked). Then again, right before the Notre Dame game, Nunes posted this line against Arizona: 21/34 (62%), 360 yards (10.6 ypa), 2 TD, 0 INT PER of 170 in a game we won 54-48. Would Hogan have won that game for us?
Similar situation in the Burns to Chryst transition. We lost 10-5 against Colorado in a miserable game for Burns, but would Chryst have beaten K State?
BC
Sorry for the confusion.
I meant the other two times Shaw stupidly picked the veteran over the better player. Or was it three other times?
So, you know for a fact that Hogan was ready week one in ‘12. Wow. Amazing. How? I’ll answer that. You have no clue. But of course, they ran the table once he started. So certainly they would have been undefeated had he only started week one. Right? Sure. I mean, how can one prove otherwise. It’s great to be able to have such clarity…..
Didn't say I did. But what I do know is the guy he picked stunk up the joint, and the guy who replaced him didn't. And the gap was so substantial that it's good enough for me to conclude that Shaw made a stupid decision. And he's now done it three times.
It's a bit off-topic, but I just want to point out that Kevin Hogan never would have considered sliding with two yards to go, at the end of a 12-yard scramble on 3-and-14. He probably would have dragged that KSU Safety another few yards. There's a big difference between Hogan's early signs and McKee's.
That said, Jack West is probably worse than Josh Nunes. I am 100% all-in on the decision for McKee and hope he crushes it.
RE: McKee Starting at USC - lex24 - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 12:58 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote:(09-09-2021, 12:49 PM)winflop Wrote:(09-08-2021, 10:14 PM)lex24 Wrote:(09-08-2021, 09:44 PM)winflop Wrote:(09-08-2021, 06:20 PM)BostonCard Wrote: I read "The other two times it cost multiple games" to be "the other two times that Shaw started West".
You might be right about 2012 (we lost 20-13 at Notre Dame and 17-13 at Washington, both games where QB play sucked). Then again, right before the Notre Dame game, Nunes posted this line against Arizona: 21/34 (62%), 360 yards (10.6 ypa), 2 TD, 0 INT PER of 170 in a game we won 54-48. Would Hogan have won that game for us?
Similar situation in the Burns to Chryst transition. We lost 10-5 against Colorado in a miserable game for Burns, but would Chryst have beaten K State?
BC
Sorry for the confusion.
I meant the other two times Shaw stupidly picked the veteran over the better player. Or was it three other times?
So, you know for a fact that Hogan was ready week one in ‘12. Wow. Amazing. How? I’ll answer that. You have no clue. But of course, they ran the table once he started. So certainly they would have been undefeated had he only started week one. Right? Sure. I mean, how can one prove otherwise. It’s great to be able to have such clarity…..
Didn't say I did. But what I do know is the guy he picked stunk up the joint, and the guy who replaced him didn't. And the gap was so substantial that it's good enough for me to conclude that Shaw made a stupid decision. And he's now done it three times.
It's a bit off-topic, but I just want to point out that Kevin Hogan never would have considered sliding with two yards to go, at the end of a 12-yard scramble on 3-and-14. He probably would have dragged that KSU Safety another few yards. There's a big difference between Hogan's early signs and McKee's.
That said, Jack West is probably worse than Josh Nunes. I am 100% all-in on the decision for McKee and hope he crushes it.
I do as well. But I always find the criticism of the 2012 decision laughable. Because no one knows if Hogan was ready game one. Hell, a lot of people wanted Nottingham. And 2012 was a great coaching job. Yet some still refuse to credit Shaw. Either, it was JH guys; or, had they gone to Hogan earlier they would have been in NC game. Check out the list of offensive players that graduated in ‘11. That team was not expected to win the PAC-12.
Shaw deserves the blame he gets for those things he does wrong. Chief of which, right now, is probably recruiting woes. The talent drop is significant. But he also deserves credit for what his teams achieved.
RE: McKee Starting at USC - BostonCard - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 11:58 AM)gailtate Wrote: West's impact on the three games he started is inconclusive. But one thing stands out: his failure to throw a TD pass in any of them. When's the last time a three-time starter failed to score a TD through the air? Not saying his performance led to the losses. But it did not help.
I don't think we are disagreeing on the facts; just the emphasis. West has had two dreadful performances and one merely bad one. It's just that in all three games, the problems extended beyond the identity of the QB. This in not a case where we would have won but for the fact that West was our starting QB. Of course, that doesn't mean he should be our QB going forward.
BC
RE: McKee Starting at USC - lex24 - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 01:48 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(09-09-2021, 11:58 AM)gailtate Wrote: West's impact on the three games he started is inconclusive. But one thing stands out: his failure to throw a TD pass in any of them. When's the last time a three-time starter failed to score a TD through the air? Not saying his performance led to the losses. But it did not help.
I don't think we are disagreeing on the facts; just the emphasis. West has had two dreadful performances and one merely bad one. It's just that in all three games, the problems extended beyond the identity of the QB. This in not a case where we would have won but for the fact that West was our starting QB. Of course, that doesn't mean he should be our QB going forward.
BC
Impossible to prove one way or the other. But I think Stanford would have had a great shot to beat Oregon if Mills played.
RE: McKee Starting at USC - gailtate - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 02:17 PM)lex24 Wrote:(09-09-2021, 01:48 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(09-09-2021, 11:58 AM)gailtate Wrote: West's impact on the three games he started is inconclusive. But one thing stands out: his failure to throw a TD pass in any of them. When's the last time a three-time starter failed to score a TD through the air? Not saying his performance led to the losses. But it did not help.
I don't think we are disagreeing on the facts; just the emphasis. West has had two dreadful performances and one merely bad one. It's just that in all three games, the problems extended beyond the identity of the QB. This in not a case where we would have won but for the fact that West was our starting QB. Of course, that doesn't mean he should be our QB going forward.
BC
Impossible to prove one way or the other. But I think Stanford would have had a great shot to beat Oregon if Mills played.
Wouldn't have hurt, that's for sure.
RE: McKee Starting at USC - Goose - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 12:58 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote: It's a bit off-topic, but I just want to point out that Kevin Hogan never would have considered sliding with two yards to go, at the end of a 12-yard scramble on 3-and-14. He probably would have dragged that KSU Safety another few yards. There's a big difference between Hogan's early signs and McKee's.I noticed the same decision and wondered about it at the time. I wonder if there have been so many injuries in the program recently that the QBs are now instructed to slide and not risk a big hit. Obviously I don't know, but I agree Hogan would have tried to get the two more yards, especially in a game we were losing.
RE: McKee Starting at USC - CompSci87 - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 03:09 PM)Goose Wrote:(09-09-2021, 12:58 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote: It's a bit off-topic, but I just want to point out that Kevin Hogan never would have considered sliding with two yards to go, at the end of a 12-yard scramble on 3-and-14. He probably would have dragged that KSU Safety another few yards. There's a big difference between Hogan's early signs and McKee's.I noticed the same decision and wondered about it at the time. I wonder if there have been so many injuries in the program recently that the QBs are now instructed to slide and not risk a big hit. Obviously I don't know, but I agree Hogan would have tried to get the two more yards, especially in a game we were losing.
I thought McKee slid too soon by mistake, just judging from the sequence of expressions on his face and his body language as he got up and realized he didn't have the first down.
RE: McKee Starting at USC - Phogge - 09-09-2021
For Old Booties please know that J Fred Muggs is still alive and living in Tampa. He's 69 years old and is often visited by Liza Minelli. He used to post on The Bootleg and often had running arguments with The Doc. Muggs usually got the better of him.
I'm glad he's back and glad he doesn't write letters anymore because chimp penmanship is brutal. Thank god for keyboards.
RE: McKee Starting at USC - terry - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 02:17 PM)lex24 Wrote: Impossible to prove one way or the other. But I think Stanford would have had a great shot to beat Oregon if Mills played.
Certainly, I would rather have had Mills in the Oregon game instead of West. I'm less certain that having McKee instead of West would have made a difference in that game. Remember that Toner's four missed field goals were a big reason for the loss.
RE: McKee Starting at USC - terry - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 01:29 PM)lex24 Wrote: I always find the criticism of the 2012 decision laughable. Because no one knows if Hogan was ready game one. Hell, a lot of people wanted Nottingham.
Interesting point. As I remember it, as we entered into the 2012 season, almost everyone was saying the QB competition was between Nunes and Nottingham. Hogan wasn't viewed at the same level as the other two. IIRC Nunes and Nottingham were more highly regarded recruits. When the season began, Hogan was considered to be mostly a running QB who could be used in a change-of-pace package. I remember a few people saying that Hogan had potential, but I don't remember people saying that Hogan was ready to be the starting QB in game one.
RE: McKee Starting at USC - akiddoc - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 09:16 PM)terry Wrote:(09-09-2021, 01:29 PM)lex24 Wrote: I always find the criticism of the 2012 decision laughable. Because no one knows if Hogan was ready game one. Hell, a lot of people wanted Nottingham.
Interesting point. As I remember it, as we entered into the 2012 season, almost everyone was saying the QB competition was between Nunes and Nottingham. Hogan wasn't viewed at the same level as the other two. IIRC Nunes and Nottingham were more highly regarded recruits. When the season began, Hogan was considered to be mostly a running QB who could be used in a change-of-pace package. I remember a few people saying that Hogan had potential, but I don't remember people saying that Hogan was ready to be the starting QB in game one.
Exactly. I don't remember a single post on any Stanford board suggesting Hogan was the guy. There was a lot of shock when Hogan emerged.
RE: McKee Starting at USC - CowboyIndian - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 09:34 PM)akiddoc Wrote: I don't remember a single post on any Stanford board suggesting Hogan was the guy. There was a lot of shock when Hogan emerged.
I'm sure as hell not going to dive into the archives but I seem to recall there was one phantom poster who kept pumping Hogan on the Bootie (or maybe here), even when he was howitzer distance from being a factor in the QB room. Am I hallucinating again?
RE: McKee Starting at USC - BostonCard - 09-09-2021
There was also somebody close to the program* who hyped Hogan up in the spring and summer, but most people here dismissed it as coachspeek, and didn’t understand why Nottingham wasn’t elevated to starter.
BC
* By that I mean, he was the head coach
RE: McKee Starting at USC - needle - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 10:19 PM)BostonCard Wrote: There was also somebody close to the program* who hyped Hogan up in the spring and summer, but most people here dismissed it as coachspeek, and didn’t understand why Nottingham wasn’t elevated to starter.
BC
* By that I mean, he was the head coach
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/14692791/why-coaches-coach-one-photo-david-shaw-kevin-hogan
RE: McKee Starting at USC - fullmetal - 09-11-2021
(09-09-2021, 05:23 PM)Phogge Wrote: For Old Booties please know that J Fred Muggs is still alive and living in Tampa. He's 69 years old and is often visited by Liza Minelli. He used to post on The Bootleg and often had running arguments with The Doc. Muggs usually got the better of him.
I'm glad he's back and glad he doesn't write letters anymore because chimp penmanship is brutal. Thank god for keyboards.
Anyone who got the better of Doc is immediately interesting enough to invite here...is Muggs active here? (I'm less active right now, I dunno who's active)
RE: McKee Starting at USC - murky - 09-11-2021
(09-09-2021, 10:19 PM)BostonCard Wrote: There was also somebody close to the program* who hyped Hogan up in the spring and summer, but most people here dismissed it as coachspeek, and didn’t understand why Nottingham wasn’t elevated to starter.
BC
* By that I mean, he was the head coach
I think you've exactly described me in the "most people". I was confident Nottingham would be the starter, and when it didn't start out that way, I thought he'd eventually take over. Hogan barely registered for me.
RE: McKee Starting at USC - BostonCard - 09-11-2021
I include myself there, too. Shaw kept saying it was a 3-QB competition and kept giving the QB’s equal snaps, but I kept thinking he’s just trying to light a fire under Nottingham. Even that year’s spring game featured all three QB’s about evenly. When Nunes was announced as the starter, I was disappointed, thinking Nottingham had more upside. Turned out that we were both wrong, but at least Shaw kept his mind open.
BC
RE: McKee Starting at USC - teejers1 - 09-11-2021
(09-09-2021, 10:14 PM)CowboyIndian Wrote:(09-09-2021, 09:34 PM)akiddoc Wrote: I don't remember a single post on any Stanford board suggesting Hogan was the guy. There was a lot of shock when Hogan emerged.
I'm sure as hell not going to dive into the archives but I seem to recall there was one phantom poster who kept pumping Hogan on the Bootie (or maybe here), even when he was howitzer distance from being a factor in the QB room. Am I hallucinating again?
No you are not.
(I always thought the poster was a relative of Hogan's).