Outside Topic Being Harbaugh - Printable Version
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RE: Being Harbaugh - gailtate - 01-06-2022
(01-05-2022, 05:37 PM)slide Wrote: "Row B Notes"
Kibbles and Bits
RE: Being Harbaugh - OutsiderFan - 01-06-2022
I've no idea what Jim Harbaugh wants in terms of the challenge and environment to be in, or if beating Ohio State and winning the Big Ten was something of a box to check for him. Here's what I do know:
- He has endured constant criticism from Michigan fans.
- In his post game interview after Ohio State victory, he explicitly did not thank the fans or say anything about them, as is typical at such moments.
- He was forced to take a pay cut, and then delivered the best season Michigan has had in two decades.
- He has already proven he can win in the NFL.
- He doesn't have to deal with the insanity of recruiting, NIL, and transfer portal as an NFL coach.
Personally, I believe any aspiring Head Coach would be insane to pass on the NFL to be a college head coach theses days. I used to see it the other way around. The pressure and time commitment to win in the NFL was so much greater than in college. Not anymore. Basically, a large part of college head coach salaries are now effectively for coaches to accept eating shit.
Who the hell needs that? Angry fans. Fickle boosters. Dealing with all the nonsense of recruiting, NIL, transfers. It's almost like the actual football coaching takes a back seat. It doesn't in the NFL. Coaching is most of it. Imagine dealing with players who are professionals masquerading as amateurs, but acting like professionals when still amateurs, when you can coach professionals.
College Head Football Coaches don't get paid so much because the job is great. They get paid so much because the job sucks.
RE: Being Harbaugh - Goose - 01-06-2022
(01-06-2022, 10:40 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I've no idea what Jim Harbaugh wants in terms of the challenge and environment to be in, or if beating Ohio State and winning the Big Ten was something of a box to check for him. Here's what I do know:Lots of truth here IMHO. I don't quite buy the idea being a college coach sucks, but it does have some significant down sides. There is also a lot of uncertainty about where the college game is going. It could end up being even worse recruiting-wise without any mitigating oversight trying to level the playing field. JH may believe that beating tOSU at Michigan with any regularity is structurally impossible. In that case getting out makes sense. It also may be that he thinks his alma mater did him wrong by forcing him to take a pay cut. No "loyalty down" justifies no "loyalty up". Of course, this is conjecture but one can see the reasoning.
- He has endured constant criticism from Michigan fans.
- In his post game interview after Ohio State victory, he explicitly did not thank the fans or say anything about them, as is typical at such moments.
- He was forced to take a pay cut, and then delivered the best season Michigan has had in two decades.
- He has already proven he can win in the NFL.
- He doesn't have to deal with the insanity of recruiting, NIL, and transfer portal as an NFL coach.
Personally, I believe any aspiring Head Coach would be insane to pass on the NFL to be a college head coach theses days. I used to see it the other way around. The pressure and time commitment to win in the NFL was so much greater than in college. Not anymore. Basically, a large part of college head coach salaries are now effectively for coaches to accept eating shit.
Who the hell needs that? Angry fans. Fickle boosters. Dealing with all the nonsense of recruiting, NIL, transfers. It's almost like the actual football coaching takes a back seat. It doesn't in the NFL. Coaching is most of it. Imagine dealing with players who are professionals masquerading as amateurs, but acting like professionals when still amateurs, when you can coach professionals.
College Head Football Coaches don't get paid so much because the job is great. They get paid so much because the job sucks.
Actually, unless you are also the GM, being a head coach in the NFL has it's own personnel issues as well. That possibly makes the Raiders a more probable target for JH, as he could get that duo more easily than in Chicago. The Raiders are also a team that has under-performed. JH may figure he is good for 3 more wins a year by just being him. He is really in the drivers seat right now IMHO. Anything is possible.
RE: Being Harbaugh - 82lsju - 01-06-2022
(01-06-2022, 11:00 AM)Goose Wrote:(01-06-2022, 10:40 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I've no idea what Jim Harbaugh wants in terms of the challenge and environment to be in, or if beating Ohio State and winning the Big Ten was something of a box to check for him. Here's what I do know:Lots of truth here IMHO. I don't quite buy the idea being a college coach sucks, but it does have some significant down sides. There is also a lot of uncertainty about where the college game is going. It could end up being even worse recruiting-wise without any mitigating oversight trying to level the playing field. JH may believe that beating tOSU at Michigan with any regularity is structurally impossible. In that case getting out makes sense. It also may be that he thinks his alma mater did him wrong by forcing him to take a pay cut. No "loyalty down" justifies no "loyalty up". Of course, this is conjecture but one can see the reasoning.
- He has endured constant criticism from Michigan fans.
- In his post game interview after Ohio State victory, he explicitly did not thank the fans or say anything about them, as is typical at such moments.
- He was forced to take a pay cut, and then delivered the best season Michigan has had in two decades.
- He has already proven he can win in the NFL.
- He doesn't have to deal with the insanity of recruiting, NIL, and transfer portal as an NFL coach.
Personally, I believe any aspiring Head Coach would be insane to pass on the NFL to be a college head coach theses days. I used to see it the other way around. The pressure and time commitment to win in the NFL was so much greater than in college. Not anymore. Basically, a large part of college head coach salaries are now effectively for coaches to accept eating shit.
Who the hell needs that? Angry fans. Fickle boosters. Dealing with all the nonsense of recruiting, NIL, transfers. It's almost like the actual football coaching takes a back seat. It doesn't in the NFL. Coaching is most of it. Imagine dealing with players who are professionals masquerading as amateurs, but acting like professionals when still amateurs, when you can coach professionals.
College Head Football Coaches don't get paid so much because the job is great. They get paid so much because the job sucks.
Actually, unless you are also the GM, being a head coach in the NFL has it's own personnel issues as well. That possibly makes the Raiders a more probable target for JH, as he could get that duo more easily than in Chicago. The Raiders are also a team that has under-performed. JH may figure he is good for 3 more wins a year by just being him. He is really in the drivers seat right now IMHO. Anything is possible.
I think that if Mark Davis offers Harbaugh a Jon Gruden sized deal (10 years/$100m) he's gone in a heartbeat...
RE: Being Harbaugh - Phogge - 01-06-2022
Was Harballs offered by Stanford or was the staff only interested in home grown legacy John Paye. If I remember correctly Harbs finished third in the He Man sweepstakes and Paye finished his career injured.
RE: Being Harbaugh - DC 86 - 01-06-2022
(01-06-2022, 11:43 AM)Phogge Wrote: Was Harballs offered by Stanford or was the staff only interested in home grown legacy John Paye. If I remember correctly Harbs finished third in the He Man sweepstakes and Paye finished his career injured.
Harbaugh was one class ahead of Paye, so they weren't direct competitors in terms of offers. I don't think Harbaugh was all-state at Paly and in any case had grown up in Michigan and his father and Bo Schembechler were close.
Paye was USA Today's High School Player of the Year, so being a home grown legacy wasn't the reason for Stanford's interest.
RE: Being Harbaugh - Phogge - 01-06-2022
The question was did Stanford offer Harbaugh? They both ended up playing the same years 1983-86 and at the end Paye was throwing as hard as Randy Jones. Perhaps Harballs beats SC and it’s roses instead of gators. Perhaps the most competitive QB since Otto Graham.
RE: Being Harbaugh - 82lsju - 01-06-2022
(01-06-2022, 12:37 PM)Phogge Wrote: The question was did Stanford offer Harbaugh? They both ended up playing the same years 1983-86 and at the end Paye was throwing as hard as Randy Jones. Perhaps Harballs beats SC and it’s roses instead of gators. Perhaps the most competitive QB since Otto Graham.
based on this
Quote:1982: Has few college offers and, while he wanted one from Michigan, didn't get it until the week before Signing Day when he flew out to Ann Arbor. Enrolls at Michigan as a quarterback that fall and redshirts.
I'd guess no
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverines/2014/12/30/jim-harbaugh-timeline/21042249/
lex24 - lex24 - 01-06-2022
(01-06-2022, 12:37 PM)Phogge Wrote: The question was did Stanford offer Harbaugh? They both ended up playing the same years 1983-86 and at the end Paye was throwing as hard as Randy Jones. Perhaps Harballs beats SC and it’s roses instead of gators. Perhaps the most competitive QB since Otto Graham.
Phogge, I always appreciate your take. But I fail to see how Harbaugh as a QB was more competitive than say Montana. Or Elway. Or Favre. Or…..
As for Paye he came to Stanford with a rifle and left with a pop gun. Destroyed his shoulder.
RE: Being Harbaugh - DC 86 - 01-06-2022
(01-06-2022, 12:37 PM)Phogge Wrote: Perhaps Harballs beats SC and it’s roses instead of gators.
Perhaps Harbaugh takes a cheap shot his sophomore year in the USC game (as Paye did) and ends up throwing as hard as Randy Jones. The hit damaged Paye's shoulder and afterwords he seemed to have an elongated throwing motion; he was still a good quarterback but we'll never know if he would have fulfilled his potential absent the shoulder damage.
Purely speculation what would have happened if both had been at Stanford. Harbaugh didn't play his true freshman year. In 1983 (Harbaugh's redshirt freshman year, Paye's true freshman year) Harbaugh was third string behind Steve Smith and David Hall on a 9-3 team, Paye started most of the year on a 1-10 team. 1984: Harbaugh only played half a season because of a broken arm and finished with 3 TD and 5 int on a 6-6 team, Paye only played half a season because of the shoulder injury and finished with 4 TD and 3 int on a 5-6 team. From that point on Harbaugh played very well (18 TD / 6 int in 1985 and third place in the H-Man in 1986 although he only threw for 10 TD / 11 int), while Paye played hurt and threw for 24 TD / 24 int over those two seasons.
I suppose the most likely scenario is that Paye would have started ahead of Harbaugh, then Harbaugh would have taken over after Paye's injury and kept the job, but we'll never know.
(01-06-2022, 01:13 PM)lex24 Wrote: Phogge, I always appreciate your take. But I fail to see how Harbaugh as a QB was more competitive than say Montana. Or Elway. Or Favre. Or…..
There's also a 44-year old guy playing in Tampa who seems to be pretty competitive.
RE: Being Harbaugh - BobK - 01-06-2022
Harbaugh has stated he wasn’t offered for the oblivious reason not football
Paye’s injury was severe
At least Randy Jones had or still has great bbq
RE: lex24 - Phogge - 01-06-2022
(01-06-2022, 01:13 PM)lex24 Wrote:(01-06-2022, 12:37 PM)Phogge Wrote: The question was did Stanford offer Harbaugh? They both ended up playing the same years 1983-86 and at the end Paye was throwing as hard as Randy Jones. Perhaps Harballs beats SC and it’s roses instead of gators. Perhaps the most competitive QB since Otto Graham.
Phogge, I always appreciate your take. But I fail to see how Harbaugh as a QB was more competitive than say Montana. Or Elway. Or Favre. Or…..
As for Paye he came to Stanford with a rifle and left with a pop gun. Destroyed his shoulder.
Watch his motion. The other guys you mention had more physical gifts and Montana had Walsh and Elway had Walsh’s pupil Shanahan for his SB wins. Harballs oozes EUTM and I know you hated him. Just my opinion on competitiveness.
I have personal experience with all four. Montana is a prince. Probably shot 25 interviews and was one of the operators on Walsh’s training film with Joe doing all the footwork and making the throws. Just a sweet guy.
Worked around Elway at Stanford. Came off to me as a spoiled kid. Consummate pro so he must have grown. However he came after my soundman ( not Feuerbach) one night at a bar for reasons I can’t get into.
Fabre was, is and forever will be a prick. So maybe in the end it’s personal.
I would have loved to see Harballs play with Muster.
RE: Being Harbaugh - DC 86 - 01-06-2022
(01-06-2022, 12:37 PM)Phogge Wrote: The question was did Stanford offer Harbaugh?
The way you phrased the question implied that Stanford possibly passed on Harbaugh in favor of Paye, but it doesn't make sense that a staff would pass on a senior in the hope that a junior enrolls a year later.
And referring to Paye only as a "home grown legacy" implies that he was favored because of family connections, as opposed to being regarded as the top QB recruit in the country.
lex24 - lex24 - 01-06-2022
(01-06-2022, 01:33 PM)Phogge Wrote:(01-06-2022, 01:13 PM)lex24 Wrote:(01-06-2022, 12:37 PM)Phogge Wrote: The question was did Stanford offer Harbaugh? They both ended up playing the same years 1983-86 and at the end Paye was throwing as hard as Randy Jones. Perhaps Harballs beats SC and it’s roses instead of gators. Perhaps the most competitive QB since Otto Graham.
Phogge, I always appreciate your take. But I fail to see how Harbaugh as a QB was more competitive than say Montana. Or Elway. Or Favre. Or…..
As for Paye he came to Stanford with a rifle and left with a pop gun. Destroyed his shoulder.
Watch his motion. The other guys you mention had more physical gifts and Montana had Walsh and Elway had Walsh’s pupil Shanahan for his SB wins. Harballs oozes EUTM and I know you hated him. Just my opinion on competitiveness.
I have personal experience with all four. Montana is a prince. Probably shot 25 interviews and was one of the operators on Walsh’s training film with Joe doing all the footwork and making the throws. Just a sweet guy.
Worked around Elway at Stanford. Came off to me as a spoiled kid. Consummate pro so he must have grown. However he came after my soundman ( not Feuerbach) one night at a bar for reasons I can’t get into.
Fabre was, is and forever will be a prick. So maybe in the end it’s personal.
I would have loved to see Harballs play with Muster.
I do not hate JH. Don’t like him much. But no where near as strongly as you suggest. They are all tremendously competitive. JH certainly got the most out of the skills he had.
(01-06-2022, 01:39 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(01-06-2022, 12:37 PM)Phogge Wrote: The question was did Stanford offer Harbaugh?
The way you phrased the question implied that Stanford possibly passed on Harbaugh in favor of Paye, but it doesn't make sense that a staff would pass on a senior in the hope that a junior enrolls a year later.
And referring to Paye only as a "home grown legacy" implies that he was favored because of family connections, as opposed to being regarded as the top QB recruit in the country.
Paye was a tremendous athlete. As evidenced by fact he played both FB and BB at Stanford. That cheap shot ruined what could have been a promising career.
RE: lex24 - DC 86 - 01-06-2022
(01-06-2022, 02:11 PM)lex24 Wrote: Paye was a tremendous athlete. As evidenced by fact he played both FB and BB at Stanford. That cheap shot ruined what could have been a promising career.
Started at QB and at point guard as a true freshman, last man to do that at the highest collegiate level (1-A in those days) I'm pretty sure. He also was drafted by the Giants in baseball although he didn't really excel at that sport. Good dude as well.
Trivia: Quinn Buckner was also a basketball and football starter as a true freshman. He's known for basketball of course but led Indiana in interceptions as both a freshman and sophomore under coach Lee Corso.
RE: lex24 - gailtate - 01-06-2022
(01-06-2022, 01:33 PM)Phogge Wrote:(01-06-2022, 01:13 PM)lex24 Wrote:(01-06-2022, 12:37 PM)Phogge Wrote: The question was did Stanford offer Harbaugh? They both ended up playing the same years 1983-86 and at the end Paye was throwing as hard as Randy Jones. Perhaps Harballs beats SC and it’s roses instead of gators. Perhaps the most competitive QB since Otto Graham.
Phogge, I always appreciate your take. But I fail to see how Harbaugh as a QB was more competitive than say Montana. Or Elway. Or Favre. Or…..
As for Paye he came to Stanford with a rifle and left with a pop gun. Destroyed his shoulder.
Watch his motion. The other guys you mention had more physical gifts and Montana had Walsh and Elway had Walsh’s pupil Shanahan for his SB wins. Harballs oozes EUTM and I know you hated him. Just my opinion on competitiveness.
I have personal experience with all four. Montana is a prince. Probably shot 25 interviews and was one of the operators on Walsh’s training film with Joe doing all the footwork and making the throws. Just a sweet guy.
Worked around Elway at Stanford. Came off to me as a spoiled kid. Consummate pro so he must have grown. However he came after my soundman ( not Feuerbach) one night at a bar for reasons I can’t get into.
Fabre was, is and forever will be a prick. So maybe in the end it’s personal.
I would have loved to see Harballs play with Muster.
Just as I woulda hated to see Elway and Marcus Allen as USC teammates, which damn-near happened. But your personal experience with Montana matches mine; and very patient and humble John Paye took a liking to my 7-year-old son, keeping him supplied with chin-straps, wrist bans, gloves and autographs. Seemed like a sterling young man. Good memories. In the brave, new world of NIL, I guess free shwag is no more. Shame, that.
lex24 - lex24 - 01-07-2022
(01-06-2022, 04:01 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(01-06-2022, 02:11 PM)lex24 Wrote: Paye was a tremendous athlete. As evidenced by fact he played both FB and BB at Stanford. That cheap shot ruined what could have been a promising career.
Started at QB and at point guard as a true freshman, last man to do that at the highest collegiate level (1-A in those days) I'm pretty sure. He also was drafted by the Giants in baseball although he didn't really excel at that sport. Good dude as well.
Trivia: Quinn Buckner was also a basketball and football starter as a true freshman. He's known for basketball of course but led Indiana in interceptions as both a freshman and sophomore under coach Lee Corso.
He kinda played basketball like a football player. Albeit with basketball skills. Remember when Ronnie Lott played basketball for SC?
RE: lex24 - slide - 01-07-2022
(01-07-2022, 07:45 AM)lex24 Wrote: He kinda played basketball like a football player. Albeit with basketball skills. Remember when Ronnie Lott played basketball for SC?
Buckner's play reminded me of a lesser Al Attles.
lex24 - lex24 - 01-07-2022
(01-07-2022, 08:14 AM)slide Wrote:(01-07-2022, 07:45 AM)lex24 Wrote: He kinda played basketball like a football player. Albeit with basketball skills. Remember when Ronnie Lott played basketball for SC?
Buckner's play reminded me of a lesser Al Attles.
Pretty good comparison. The Destroyer once scored 20 without a miss. I think he was 8-8 from the field and 4-4 from line. Course no one noticed. Wilt scored 100 that night. Not one of Darrell Imhoff’s better nights…..
Edit - I was a little off. It was 17. 8-8 but only 1-1 from line. Wilt was 28-32. Maybe more amazing than the 100. Also, the “Fabulous Guy Rodgers” had 20 assists.
RE: Being Harbaugh - Phogge - 01-07-2022
Rodgers one of the best no-look passers of all time.
Russell/Chamberlain duels were for the ages. I stopped watching the NBA when Russ retired. I stopped watching college hoops when Monty left.
I’m still optimistic re baseball. If they don’t play then heaven is the sweet field at Marin Catholic on a warmish spring day.