We need to talk about the offensive line...

We need to talk about the offensive line... - Printable Version

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RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - BobK - 09-23-2018

Hall started the game didn’t last
Hall played some in the 2nd half.
Hall surely gave his all but most of the game Dalman at RG and Herbig at RT

Little missed his man completely on one play. Certainly not on Costello

Be happy we won

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - ChicagoCard - 09-23-2018

(09-23-2018, 09:29 AM)BobK Wrote: Hall started the game didn’t last
Hall played some in the 2nd half.
Hall surely gave his all but most of the game Dalman at RG and Herbig at RT

Little missed his man completely on one play. Certainly not on Costello

Be happy we won

Yes and hoping Hall and Hamilton are much healthier by next week.

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - OutsiderFan - 09-23-2018

(09-23-2018, 09:29 AM)BobK Wrote: Hall started the game didn’t last
Hall played some in the 2nd half.
Hall surely gave his all but most of the game Dalman at RG and Herbig at RT

Little missed his man completely on one play. Certainly not on Costello

Be happy we won

Bob, I'm not trying to argue here, but Hall did not start the game. The graphic introducing the starting lineups showed Hall starting, but in reality Herbig started at RT and Dalman RG. You can go see the video. Hall started and played the whole second half. That too can be seen on the video.

It seems possible they sat Hall in the first half to give him rest and limit his snaps. But the reality also is they didn't really do any downfield passing until Hall was in the game. Whether this means anything is anyone's guess. I was quite concerned about Herbig in pass protection, but he seemed to acquit himself fairly well.

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - CardinalSagehen - 09-23-2018

(09-23-2018, 09:50 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:
(09-23-2018, 09:29 AM)BobK Wrote: Hall started the game didn’t last
Hall played some in the 2nd half.
Hall surely gave his all but most of the game Dalman at RG and Herbig at RT

Little missed his man completely on one play. Certainly not on Costello

Be happy we won

Bob, I'm not trying to argue here, but Hall did not start the game. The graphic introducing the starting lineups showed Hall starting, but in reality Herbig started at RT and Dalman RG. You can go see the video. Hall started and played the whole second half. That too can be seen on the video.

It seems possible they sat Hall in the first half to give him rest and limit his snaps. But the reality also is they didn't really do any downfield passing until Hall was in the game. Whether this means anything is anyone's guess. I was quite concerned about Herbig in pass protection, but he seemed to acquit himself fairly well.

Yes, I saw what OF saw - ABC’s graphic was wrong. But there was one additional nuance. Herbig started at RT but Hall came in on the third play of the game (IIRC) when we were in an obvious 3rd down passing situation. Then we barely saw him until the 2nd half.

My early interpretation was that we like Hall best in pass-pro but didn’t like his run-blocking (which could be based on the nature of his injury).

Then Hall played the whole 2nd half, when everyone knew we were mostly going to be passing anyway.

Of course, it’s hard to know all the details...

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - BostonCard - 09-23-2018

(09-23-2018, 09:13 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I don't know if this was brought up elsewhere, but this thread seemed like the right place if not...

Can anyone explain the OL shuffle at Oregon?

First half: Little - Fanaika - Burkett - Dalman - Herbig
Second half: Little - Fanaika - Burkett - Herbig - Hall
Pachyderm (jumbo): Hattis - Fanaika - Chaffin - Herbig - Little

That's three different OL combos for this game. If Hall was healthy enough to play in second half, why not the first? And does anyone think the first half OL was part of the problem on offense?

I thought Hall played really well in the second half, FWIW. Little got beat for the strip sack once, but that was a lot on Costello for holding the ball too long and not stepping up to throw away.

My guess is that the staff felt that Dalman and Herbig would be better than Herbig and gimpy Hall. They were wrong. Also, in the second half we were throwing more often, by necessity, and it is likely that having a natural RT out there for pass protection than a guard playing tackle.

The jumbo package has always been different.

BC

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - BobK - 09-23-2018

Ok Hall in on the third play. ?

However injuries and position changes account for problems. Dalman at RG and Herbig at RT much of the game

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - winflop - 09-23-2018

(09-23-2018, 09:50 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:
(09-23-2018, 09:29 AM)BobK Wrote: Hall started the game didn’t last
Hall played some in the 2nd half.
Hall surely gave his all but most of the game Dalman at RG and Herbig at RT

Little missed his man completely on one play. Certainly not on Costello

Be happy we won

Bob, I'm not trying to argue here, but Hall did not start the game. The graphic introducing the starting lineups showed Hall starting, but in reality Herbig started at RT and Dalman RG. You can go see the video. Hall started and played the whole second half. That too can be seen on the video.

It seems possible they sat Hall in the first half to give him rest and limit his snaps. But the reality also is they didn't really do any downfield passing until Hall was in the game. Whether this means anything is anyone's guess. I was quite concerned about Herbig in pass protection, but he seemed to acquit himself fairly well.

My understanding (from press sources) is that Hall was limited in snaps, played a series or two in H1 and they saved his snaps for H2. I think he was a difference maker when he was in there in the second half.

I don't think Little is 100%. I hope he, Hamilton, and Hall are all good to go for ND. Gonna need every horse we have up front

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - fullmetal - 09-23-2018

Paging Shannon Turley... :(

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - OutsiderFan - 09-24-2018

Was able to track down the post game Shaw presser and he essentially said Hall couldn't have played the whole game. But he did say that on Friday they thought he would be healthy enough to play some. Perhaps they came up with the idea that if Stanford was leading at halftime and throughout the game, Hall would be held out, but if they struggled in the first half they would let him play the second, knowing his snaps would be limited to about 25 or so. Then when he played and the adrenaline got going, he felt good.

I do think the OL that finished at Oregon played really well in the second half, and that they have a good chance to carry it over to South Bend. They are only going to get better. Fanaika seems to be the key guy to settle into his spot at LG.

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - Goose - 09-24-2018

(09-24-2018, 06:07 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Fanaika seems to be the key guy to settle into his spot at LG.

Shaw has made it clear that LG was a worry on his part. If Fanaika can settle in there, that would be great. I am not sure what the "story" is on this position, as Sarell and Hamilton were listed ahead of him earlier in the year (as guards, not tackles), although this may be an injury related condition. Fanaika certainly got lots of praise last year for versatility. It is stating the obvious to say our run game needs improvement. Hopefully, stability at LG will do so.

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - BostonCard - 09-24-2018

(09-24-2018, 06:07 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I do think the OL that finished at Oregon played really well in the second half, and that they have a good chance to carry it over to South Bend. They are only going to get better. Fanaika seems to be the key guy to settle into his spot at LG.

I wouldn't say they played "well". On Love's touchdown run, the pulling guard was so late getting there that Love just cut in front of him. That was a successful play despite the line, not because of it. On many of the other runs, Love would gain 7 yards post-contact on a five yard run. Love was consistently held in on pass protection even when Oregon wasn't blitzing because we needed the extra blocker.

The offensive line was better in the second half, but that was a very low bar to clear.

BC

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - pcgoode - 09-25-2018

Chantel Jennings has a story in The Athletic this morning noting the differences between Stanford with AT Hall in the lineup (and letting Herbig play guard) and without him in the Oregon game. It is behind the paywall I believe, but suffice to say there is no comparison in both the run and pass game. Barring other issues that emerge this week such as new injuries, Stanford’s offense should roll vs the Irish.

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - stupac2 - 09-25-2018

(09-25-2018, 06:15 AM)pcgoode Wrote: Chantal Jennings has a story in The Athletic this morning noting the differences between Stanford with AT Hall in the lineup (and letting Herbig play guard) and without him in the Oregon game. It is behind the paywall I believe, but suffice to say there is no comparison in both the run and pass game. Barring other issues that emerge this week such as new injuries, Stanford’s offense should roll vs the Irish.

Here's the link: https://theathletic.com/546242/2018/09/25/best-coast-football-stanfords-unknown-difference-maker-footballs-version-of-a-no-hitter-and-more-from-week-4-out-west/

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - CTcard - 09-25-2018

(09-24-2018, 11:16 AM)BostonCard Wrote: On Love's touchdown run, the pulling guard was so late getting there that Love just cut in front of him. That was a successful play despite the line, not because of it.

I think that play deserves a little more comment.

Here is the video of the game time stamped to that play.
https://youtu.be/jl8ldVjPR9I?t=1h28m18s

The pulling guard in question is Nick Wilson, who is lined up as a more or less a WR (far left side of the formation, not on the LOS). The play had Wilson as a second puller, past at least five other guys.
The first puller was the actual LG Fanaika, who came around and made a beautiful kick out block negating two Oregon defenders. That was really the key to the play. Presumably the design was that Wilson would have been coming around to handle the second of those two duckies.

I'd say that Wilson was just too far away to effectively pull without making the play exceptionally slow developing. That was a design flaw. However, overall, the OL and Williams did a great job blocking on the play. It did succeed because of the OL; Love had a clean hole through the LOS.
By the way, that was Power (or at least a twist on Power - here both the pulling guard and the FB had kickout blocks with the whole right side of the line down blocking).

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - OutsiderFan - 09-25-2018

(09-25-2018, 06:15 AM)pcgoode Wrote: [with Hall playing RT and Herbig RG] Stanford’s offense should roll vs the Irish.

This. The Notre Dame game will be the first game this season Stanford will play with the OL it probably preferred going into this season. This is the same group that played against ND in 2017, just replace Little with Bright at LT. It's big to have Hamilton back for depth in case of emergency. The Herbig at RT experiment turned out pretty much as badly as it seemed it would when first contemplated. We can argue Sarell could be the best LG option, but Fanaika is certainly not a liability.

I fully expect Stanford to have its best rushing performance of the season to date against ND, because ND is going to play two deep safeties given what Costello has shown he can do throwing the ball. This is the game the Stanford OL really comes into its own and plays up to its talent.

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - Goose - 09-25-2018

(09-25-2018, 06:35 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:
(09-25-2018, 06:15 AM)pcgoode Wrote: [with Hall playing RT and Herbig RG] Stanford’s offense should roll vs the Irish.

This. The Notre Dame game will be the first game this season Stanford will play with the OL it probably preferred going into this season. This is the same group that played against ND in 2017, just replace Little with Bright at LT. It's big to have Hamilton back for depth in case of emergency. The Herbig at RT experiment turned out pretty much as badly as it seemed it would when first contemplated. We can argue Sarell could be the best LG option, but Fanaika is certainly not a liability.

I fully expect Stanford to have its best rushing performance of the season to date against ND, because ND is going to play two deep safeties given what Costello has shown he can do throwing the ball. This is the game the Stanford OL really comes into its own and plays up to its talent.

I hope so! As you point out, it is basically the same group as last year except for Little, and he is (or should be) at least as good as Bright. I think many expect him to be better, at least down the road. We are going into this game as ready physically as could be expected for game 5.
Hopefully the finish at Oregon has broken through our road game issues. It can't be a more hostile crowd than ay Oregon!

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - CTcard - 09-25-2018

(09-25-2018, 06:35 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:
(09-25-2018, 06:15 AM)pcgoode Wrote: [with Hall playing RT and Herbig RG] Stanford’s offense should roll vs the Irish.

This. The Notre Dame game will be the first game this season Stanford will play with the OL it probably preferred going into this season. This is the same group that played against ND in 2017, just replace Little with Bright at LT.

Last year vs Notre Dame we had
LT Hamilton, LG Bright, C Burkett, RG Herbig, RT Hall

So, for this year replace Hamilton with Little and Bright with either Hamilton or Fanaika (they have an OR on the depth chart at the moment).

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - OutsiderFan - 09-25-2018

(09-25-2018, 07:26 AM)CTcard Wrote:
(09-25-2018, 06:35 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:
(09-25-2018, 06:15 AM)pcgoode Wrote: [with Hall playing RT and Herbig RG] Stanford’s offense should roll vs the Irish.

This. The Notre Dame game will be the first game this season Stanford will play with the OL it probably preferred going into this season. This is the same group that played against ND in 2017, just replace Little with Bright at LT.

Last year vs Notre Dame we had
LT Hamilton, LG Bright, C Burkett, RG Herbig, RT Hall

So, for this year replace Hamilton with Little and Bright with either Hamilton or Fanaika (they have an OR on the depth chart at the moment).

I just watched the 2017 game on the iPad last night. They played both:
Hamilton - Bright - Burkett - Herbig - Hall
AND
Bright - Fanaika - Burkett - Herbig - Hall

There is something about Fanaika that they just don't like. He's rarely been allowed to play a full game at LG. last year he split with Bright, this year with Hamilton and Sarell. This past game might have been the first full game he's played at Stanford?

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - fullmetal - 09-25-2018

(09-25-2018, 06:29 AM)CTcard Wrote: I'd say that Wilson was just too far away to effectively pull without making the play exceptionally slow developing. That was a design flaw. However, overall, the OL and Williams did a great job blocking on the play. It did succeed because of the OL; Love had a clean hole through the LOS.
By the way, that was Power (or at least a twist on Power - here both the pulling guard and the FB had kickout blocks with the whole right side of the line down blocking).

This is a slight variant on your classic counter play--seal the strong of the line and kick out with pulling blockers. Wilson was definitely too slow or too far away to help (who amongst us is not), and Bryce made the right call to accelerate through the hole -- it was a tiny gap. Love had to really pick his feet up over Scooter Harrington's feet (TE, #80).

Massive credit to fullback Reagan Williams who made the first block against Oregon DE/OLB Jalen Jelks rushing from the edge. Williams stonewalled Jelks, who was really close to closing the lane. Williams was giving up 3 inches of height and about 25 lbs to Jelks, but that block held.

RE: We need to talk about the offensive line... - BostonCard - 09-25-2018

(09-25-2018, 06:29 AM)CTcard Wrote:
(09-24-2018, 11:16 AM)BostonCard Wrote: On Love's touchdown run, the pulling guard was so late getting there that Love just cut in front of him. That was a successful play despite the line, not because of it.

I think that play deserves a little more comment.

Here is the video of the game time stamped to that play.
https://youtu.be/jl8ldVjPR9I?t=1h28m18s

The pulling guard in question is Nick Wilson, who is lined up as a more or less a WR (far left side of the formation, not on the LOS). The play had Wilson as a second puller, past at least five other guys.
The first puller was the actual LG Fanaika, who came around and made a beautiful kick out block negating two Oregon defenders. That was really the key to the play. Presumably the design was that Wilson would have been coming around to handle the second of those two duckies.

I'd say that Wilson was just too far away to effectively pull without making the play exceptionally slow developing. That was a design flaw. However, overall, the OL and Williams did a great job blocking on the play. It did succeed because of the OL; Love had a clean hole through the LOS.
By the way, that was Power (or at least a twist on Power - here both the pulling guard and the FB had kickout blocks with the whole right side of the line down blocking).

So you are right that this was probably a design flaw and not necessarily Wilson's fault. However, Wilson's block should have been the key, as the Ducks still had numbers at the point of attack, and it really took a misplay by Oregon's #15 to spring Love. Had #15 stayed home, he would have been able to stop Love after a gain of about two yards. But he foolishly tried to either crash down or get around Fanaika and really took himself out of the play. Indeed, Fanaika doesn't even really block him. My guess is he thought Love was going to bounce it outside (and he would have had outside contain had Love done so). But he should have hesitated at the 20 yard line and seen which way Love was going to go. When Love went inside, he would have been in a perfect position to meet him straight up (unless, of course Wilson had been able to get there first).

I will give credit to Fanaika, Williams, and Harrington, who each had some nice blocks. The problem, as has often been the case this year, is that despite 4 guys doing a nice job up front, the fifth guy has missed his assignment, either because of poor design or poor execution, and that is too often enough to make the difference between a successful play that springs Love and a tackle in the backfield or for one or two yards. In this case, we lucked out because a defender also made a mistake, but we can't count on that every time.

BC