Herbig going pro - Printable Version

Herbig going pro - Printable Version

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RE: Herbig going pro - Beeg_Dawg - 12-26-2018

(12-20-2018, 10:13 PM)CTcard Wrote:
(12-20-2018, 08:45 PM)winflop Wrote: Did either of you not see how big the dropoff was when he was out?

Herbig played over the first six games (through Utah) then didn't play again until the cal game.

In the games where Herbig played, Stanford averaged
rushing 87 yds/gm, 3.0 yds/carry passing 264 yds/gm, 8.6 yds/attempt Total 351 yds/gm, 5.88 yds/play

In the games where Herbig didn't play, Stanford averaged
rushing 139 yds/gm, 4.7 yds/carry passing 319 yds/gm, 8.4 yds/attempt Total 458 yds/gm, 6.74 yds/play

There's lots of complicated stuff behind those numbers, of course.

(12-20-2018, 08:45 PM)winflop Wrote: I wish him luck in the future and hope he completes his degree for his own sake, but I'd prefer he did it somewhere else.

That seems at least a tad harsh. I wouldn't wish him out of Stanford altogether over this ... at least under most circumstances I could imagine.

In fact, I guess I'd slightly prefer it if he finished his degree at Stanford in the next three and a half years so he counts as a positive rather than a negative in the federal graduation rate - though that's probably more likely if he doesn't make an NFL team.

Entire OL was a disappointment. Hall, Herbig and Hamilton are a conundrum. I don't know if it was the coaching change, injuries or what, but these 3 are not entitled to TWU shirts. Between them, the only thing they perfected was turning toward Costello and yelling "look out" when failing to pick up a stunt.

RE: Herbig going pro - Beeg_Dawg - 12-26-2018

(12-26-2018, 02:01 PM)winflop Wrote:
(12-26-2018, 01:55 PM)d4cohn Wrote: My feeling on Herbig, Irwin, Love et al is that I am not going to hold players to a standard that wouldn't also apply for the fans (i.e. if certain Stanford fans feel the Sun Bowl isn't a significant enough game to attend, then how can I get upset at the players, who would potentially be risking their health, future career prospects and earnings for them and their families, for not playing in that very game.)

What a ridiculous comparison.

I'm not taking the same risks they are, but I'm also not receiving a $300,000+ education at one of the nation's premier universities in exchange for being a fan. I'm also not getting free airfare, hotel, meals, admission to the game, etc. Going to the Sun Bowl by myself would cost me about as much as my four season tickets + parking, maybe more.

Talk about a ridiculous comparison. PAC12 adapted the 4 year scholarship rule, along with several progressive moves favoring student athletes in 2014. Prior to that Stanford offered one year scholarships like other schools, it continued the scholarship so long as the student was in good standing academically.

Would you feel the same about a music student leaving early to play professionally? What about the student who leaves early to start and develop a tech company?

I thought Stanford was about expanding horizons, challenges, critical thinking while preparing students for success after Stanford. Except if you play football. Then you play football, and that's all you do, so shut up and go play in a nearly meaningless bowl game because that is what our alumni want.

Is that really your position?

RE: Herbig going pro - qwerty49 - 12-27-2018

(12-26-2018, 09:52 PM)Beeg_Dawg Wrote: Entire OL was a disappointment. Hall, Herbig and Hamilton are a conundrum. I don't know if it was the coaching change, injuries or what, but these 3 are not entitled to TWU shirts. Between them, the only thing they perfected was turning toward Costello and yelling "look out" when failing to pick up a stunt.

I really agree on this and I think what concerns me the most is that no one else was able (or available) to step up and take those jobs.

RE: Herbig going pro - Phogge - 12-27-2018

Did you watch Powell Mr. Q? Played pretty well when he got the chance.

RE: Herbig going pro - qwerty49 - 12-27-2018

(12-27-2018, 09:20 AM)Phogge Wrote: Did you watch Powell Mr. Q? Played pretty well when he got the chance.

I paid more attention to Wilson, especially since he was pretty much the Ogre for the past two years. I could never figure out what was going on with Hall and Hamilton. I suppose injuries were more severe than publicized.

RE: Herbig going pro - akiddoc - 12-27-2018

(12-20-2018, 09:54 AM)BobK Wrote: Sorry don’t wish him luck at all. Good bye. More to this than meets the eye. Darn right. Injured? Oh?

Moving on

Lots of rumors out there that Herbig wasn't injured at all this year, but I don't know any inside info.

RE: Herbig going pro - winflop - 12-28-2018

(12-26-2018, 10:31 PM)Beeg_Dawg Wrote: Would you feel the same about a music student leaving early to play professionally? What about the student who leaves early to start and develop a tech company?

Are those students receiving a paid-for education? Did they sign a contract stating what their responsibilities were in exchange for their music or other talents? If they did, then my position wouldn't change.

I don't see bowl games as meaningless. I see them as part of the football season, and if a player is medically cleared to play and chooses not to then I think they are breaching that contract and there should be consequences for doing so. I think the scholarship should be revoked for that school year, and the student should no longer be entitled to any benefits afforded a scholarship athlete above and beyond those of any other (paying) student.

Is this practical? Can it be implemented? Likely not. Doesn't change what I think.

RE: Herbig going pro - d4cohn - 12-28-2018

(12-28-2018, 05:53 AM)winflop Wrote: Are those students receiving a paid-for education? Did they sign a contract stating what their responsibilities were in exchange for their music or other talents? If they did, then my position wouldn't change.

I don't see bowl games as meaningless. I see them as part of the football season, and if a player is medically cleared to play and chooses not to then I think they are breaching that contract and there should be consequences for doing so. I think the scholarship should be revoked for that school year, and the student should no longer be entitled to any benefits afforded a scholarship athlete above and beyond those of any other (paying) student.

What about all of the coaches that leave before bowl games for new jobs? Should they lose their salary for that season, and actually have to pay their own buyout, as opposed to just getting their new school to give them extra money and foot the bill? And unlike student-athletes, coaches are employees with employee contracts.

RE: Herbig going pro - winflop - 12-28-2018

(12-28-2018, 02:08 PM)d4cohn Wrote:
(12-28-2018, 05:53 AM)winflop Wrote: Are those students receiving a paid-for education? Did they sign a contract stating what their responsibilities were in exchange for their music or other talents? If they did, then my position wouldn't change.

I don't see bowl games as meaningless. I see them as part of the football season, and if a player is medically cleared to play and chooses not to then I think they are breaching that contract and there should be consequences for doing so. I think the scholarship should be revoked for that school year, and the student should no longer be entitled to any benefits afforded a scholarship athlete above and beyond those of any other (paying) student.

What about all of the coaches that leave before bowl games for new jobs? Should they lose their salary for that season, and actually have to pay their own buyout, as opposed to just getting their new school to give them extra money and foot the bill? And unlike student-athletes, coaches are employees with employee contracts.

I have been equally critical of this in the past and think the NCAA should ban interviewing for coaching positions until after the championship game. As far as their contracts, it comes down to the terms. If they breach their contract, then the school should seek remedies they would be entitled to under the contract. If the contract didn't cover these circumstances, then that's a bad agreement.

RE: Herbig going pro - BostonCard - 12-29-2018

(12-28-2018, 10:03 PM)winflop Wrote:
(12-28-2018, 02:08 PM)d4cohn Wrote:
(12-28-2018, 05:53 AM)winflop Wrote: Are those students receiving a paid-for education? Did they sign a contract stating what their responsibilities were in exchange for their music or other talents? If they did, then my position wouldn't change.

I don't see bowl games as meaningless. I see them as part of the football season, and if a player is medically cleared to play and chooses not to then I think they are breaching that contract and there should be consequences for doing so. I think the scholarship should be revoked for that school year, and the student should no longer be entitled to any benefits afforded a scholarship athlete above and beyond those of any other (paying) student.

What about all of the coaches that leave before bowl games for new jobs? Should they lose their salary for that season, and actually have to pay their own buyout, as opposed to just getting their new school to give them extra money and foot the bill? And unlike student-athletes, coaches are employees with employee contracts.

I have been equally critical of this in the past and think the NCAA should ban interviewing for coaching positions until after the championship game. As far as their contracts, it comes down to the terms. If they breach their contract, then the school should seek remedies they would be entitled to under the contract. If the contract didn't cover these circumstances, then that's a bad agreement.

I think that would run afoul of many employment provisions.

Coaches can be fired at any time for any reason; I don’t see why they can’t leave at any time for any reason, including because someone else will pay them more.

The student athletes do not get paid market rates for their participation in football. I support that (I want there to continue to be amateurism in college sports). But one downside of that is that as this fact becomes more nakedly apparent, and the players with the largest gap between their market value and what they are being “paid” (scholarship) realize it, they are increasingly opting not provide their services. And while I don’t like it,
there really is not much that I think should be done about it.

BC

RE: Herbig going pro - stupac2 - 12-29-2018

(12-29-2018, 06:17 AM)BostonCard Wrote: there really is not much that I think should be done about it.

Really? At this point I desperately want some kind of NFL minor league that pays players. CFB being the NFL minor league is getting annoying, and it gives Stanford a brobdingnagian disadvantage being one of like 4 schools that actually give a shit about how their players are as students.

RE: Herbig going pro - Hurlburt88 - 12-29-2018

I like the idea for for the big 3 men's sports of bifurcating the population into one that prioritizes pro sport development above student athletics, and one that focus these young people on being student athletes. Not only would it help level the field for Stanford, but other schools might get clarity of mission.

RE: Herbig going pro - d4cohn - 12-29-2018

(12-29-2018, 06:17 AM)BostonCard Wrote:
(12-28-2018, 10:03 PM)winflop Wrote:
(12-28-2018, 02:08 PM)d4cohn Wrote:
(12-28-2018, 05:53 AM)winflop Wrote: Are those students receiving a paid-for education? Did they sign a contract stating what their responsibilities were in exchange for their music or other talents? If they did, then my position wouldn't change.

I don't see bowl games as meaningless. I see them as part of the football season, and if a player is medically cleared to play and chooses not to then I think they are breaching that contract and there should be consequences for doing so. I think the scholarship should be revoked for that school year, and the student should no longer be entitled to any benefits afforded a scholarship athlete above and beyond those of any other (paying) student.

What about all of the coaches that leave before bowl games for new jobs? Should they lose their salary for that season, and actually have to pay their own buyout, as opposed to just getting their new school to give them extra money and foot the bill? And unlike student-athletes, coaches are employees with employee contracts.

I have been equally critical of this in the past and think the NCAA should ban interviewing for coaching positions until after the championship game. As far as their contracts, it comes down to the terms. If they breach their contract, then the school should seek remedies they would be entitled to under the contract. If the contract didn't cover these circumstances, then that's a bad agreement.

I think that would run afoul of many employment provisions.

Coaches can be fired at any time for any reason; I don’t see why they can’t leave at any time for any reason, including because someone else will pay them more.

Coaches are free to leave at any time, but they are under contract, so they would have to buyout the remaining years on their contract in order to leave. But since the new school that they are going to always throws in extra cash to pay for the buyout, the coach can just leave if he wants to; there is no actual deterrent/consequence of the coach leaving (other than the coach getting a better payday).

Nothing is going to change on the front of coaches leaving before bowl games; I just don't believe it is inherently fair to hold students (who are not employees) to a higher standard than employed adults.

RE: Herbig going pro - BostonCard - 12-30-2018

(12-29-2018, 08:46 AM)stupac2 Wrote:
(12-29-2018, 06:17 AM)BostonCard Wrote: there really is not much that I think should be done about it.

Really? At this point I desperately want some kind of NFL minor league that pays players. CFB being the NFL minor league is getting annoying, and it gives Stanford a of immense proportions disadvantage being one of like 4 schools that actually give a shit about how their players are as students.

I would like a unicorn, but like the NFL shelling out money to finance a minor league, it isn’t going to happen.

BC

RE: Herbig going pro - winflop - 12-30-2018

(12-29-2018, 06:17 AM)BostonCard Wrote:
(12-28-2018, 10:03 PM)winflop Wrote:
(12-28-2018, 02:08 PM)d4cohn Wrote:
(12-28-2018, 05:53 AM)winflop Wrote: Are those students receiving a paid-for education? Did they sign a contract stating what their responsibilities were in exchange for their music or other talents? If they did, then my position wouldn't change.

I don't see bowl games as meaningless. I see them as part of the football season, and if a player is medically cleared to play and chooses not to then I think they are breaching that contract and there should be consequences for doing so. I think the scholarship should be revoked for that school year, and the student should no longer be entitled to any benefits afforded a scholarship athlete above and beyond those of any other (paying) student.

What about all of the coaches that leave before bowl games for new jobs? Should they lose their salary for that season, and actually have to pay their own buyout, as opposed to just getting their new school to give them extra money and foot the bill? And unlike student-athletes, coaches are employees with employee contracts.

I have been equally critical of this in the past and think the NCAA should ban interviewing for coaching positions until after the championship game. As far as their contracts, it comes down to the terms. If they breach their contract, then the school should seek remedies they would be entitled to under the contract. If the contract didn't cover these circumstances, then that's a bad agreement.

I think that would run afoul of many employment provisions.

Coaches can be fired at any time for any reason; I don’t see why they can’t leave at any time for any reason, including because someone else will pay them more.

The student athletes do not get paid market rates for their participation in football. I support that (I want there to continue to be amateurism in college sports). But one downside of that is that as this fact becomes more nakedly apparent, and the players with the largest gap between their market value and what they are being “paid” (scholarship) realize it, they are increasingly opting not provide their services. And while I don’t like it,
there really is not much that I think should be done about it.

BC

This could certainly be implemented. The NCAA could rule that no member school could interview any candidates for coaching positions until after the national championship game. Doesnt prevent them from firing coaches nor does it prevent coaches from leaving. Or they could say you can't hire anyone (or announce it) until after the last game.

Not saying it will happen, but it could be done.

RE: Herbig going pro - BostonCard - 12-30-2018

Maybe, but again, it might run into trouble with employment and anti-trust provisions. I’m not a legal expert, so I’d welcome someone who knew what they were talking about, but I seem to recall the big tech firms getting into trouble for an agreement not to poach each other’s engineers.

BC

RE: Herbig going pro - Beeg_Dawg - 12-30-2018

(12-30-2018, 12:32 PM)winflop Wrote:
(12-29-2018, 06:17 AM)BostonCard Wrote:
(12-28-2018, 10:03 PM)winflop Wrote:
(12-28-2018, 02:08 PM)d4cohn Wrote:
(12-28-2018, 05:53 AM)winflop Wrote: Are those students receiving a paid-for education? Did they sign a contract stating what their responsibilities were in exchange for their music or other talents? If they did, then my position wouldn't change.

I don't see bowl games as meaningless. I see them as part of the football season, and if a player is medically cleared to play and chooses not to then I think they are breaching that contract and there should be consequences for doing so. I think the scholarship should be revoked for that school year, and the student should no longer be entitled to any benefits afforded a scholarship athlete above and beyond those of any other (paying) student.

What about all of the coaches that leave before bowl games for new jobs? Should they lose their salary for that season, and actually have to pay their own buyout, as opposed to just getting their new school to give them extra money and foot the bill? And unlike student-athletes, coaches are employees with employee contracts.

I have been equally critical of this in the past and think the NCAA should ban interviewing for coaching positions until after the championship game. As far as their contracts, it comes down to the terms. If they breach their contract, then the school should seek remedies they would be entitled to under the contract. If the contract didn't cover these circumstances, then that's a bad agreement.

I think that would run afoul of many employment provisions.

Coaches can be fired at any time for any reason; I don’t see why they can’t leave at any time for any reason, including because someone else will pay them more.

The student athletes do not get paid market rates for their participation in football. I support that (I want there to continue to be amateurism in college sports). But one downside of that is that as this fact becomes more nakedly apparent, and the players with the largest gap between their market value and what they are being “paid” (scholarship) realize it, they are increasingly opting not provide their services. And while I don’t like it,
there really is not much that I think should be done about it.

BC

This could certainly be implemented. The NCAA could rule that no member school could interview any candidates for coaching positions until after the national championship game. Doesnt prevent them from firing coaches nor does it prevent coaches from leaving. Or they could say you can't hire anyone (or announce it) until after the last game.

Not saying it will happen, but it could be done.

Not going to happen. The governance committee is made up of member schools. Members are not going to implement a rule not in their best interest.

RE: Herbig going pro - stupac2 - 12-31-2018

(12-30-2018, 11:46 AM)BostonCard Wrote:
(12-29-2018, 08:46 AM)stupac2 Wrote:
(12-29-2018, 06:17 AM)BostonCard Wrote: there really is not much that I think should be done about it.

Really? At this point I desperately want some kind of NFL minor league that pays players. CFB being the NFL minor league is getting annoying, and it gives Stanford a of immense proportions disadvantage being one of like 4 schools that actually give a shit about how their players are as students.

I would like a unicorn, but like the NFL shelling out money to finance a minor league, it isn’t going to happen.

BC

It doesn't need to be the NFL: http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24300654/the-nfl-new-developmental-league-alliance-american-football-aaf-big-plans

They're also trying to bring back the XFL. All it takes is for one of these to be a viable path to the NFL for it to cut down on the worst parts of our current system.

RE: Herbig going pro - BostonCard - 12-31-2018

(12-31-2018, 09:15 AM)stupac2 Wrote:
(12-30-2018, 11:46 AM)BostonCard Wrote:
(12-29-2018, 08:46 AM)stupac2 Wrote:
(12-29-2018, 06:17 AM)BostonCard Wrote: there really is not much that I think should be done about it.

Really? At this point I desperately want some kind of NFL minor league that pays players. CFB being the NFL minor league is getting annoying, and it gives Stanford a of immense proportions disadvantage being one of like 4 schools that actually give a shit about how their players are as students.

I would like a unicorn, but like the NFL shelling out money to finance a minor league, it isn’t going to happen.

BC

It doesn't need to be the NFL: http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24300654/the-nfl-new-developmental-league-alliance-american-football-aaf-big-plans

They're also trying to bring back the XFL. All it takes is for one of these to be a viable path to the NFL for it to cut down on the worst parts of our current system.

That’s fair, though previous incarnations of alternative leagues, including the XFL, World league of American football, and indoor football served more as a place for players not use good enough to play professionally than as a true minor league (though of course some players did move up to the NFL).

BC

RE: Herbig going pro - BostonCard - 01-23-2019

(12-26-2018, 03:55 PM)ColoradoTree Wrote: FYI, I don't think Peat is a bust, or that he won't carve out a good career in the NFL. I meant more that he was drafted #13 overall to be a great offensive tackle, but he struggled in limited action at right tackle. Then they tried him at right guard, and when that didn't work, they tried him at left guard, and he has unquestionably done better there, and it seems like he's part of their future plans at that position.

He's turned into a solid player there, and he was terrific last season, though I understand he hasn't been as good there this year (at one point this season, PFF had him as the lowest-rated guard in the league, though PFF is just one evaluator and that seems pretty harsh from the little I've seen of the Saints this year). I didn't mean to suggest he wasn't a solid NFL player--he is!--just that I'm not sure the Saints take him at #13 overall if they had a do-over, you know? That's more what I meant by "hasn't lived up to his draft slot."

The Pro Bowl begs to differ with PFF about Andrus Peat's rating.

https://www.neworleanssaints.com/news/new-orleans-saints-running-back-alvin-kamara-and-guards-andrus-peat-and-larry-wa

BC