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200 Million Masks! - Printable Version

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RE: 200 Million Masks! - Goose - 04-09-2020

(04-09-2020, 07:24 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  Tne other point about political will. Leaders lead. They assign importance to an objective and rally people to follow them. I had to do this in my own household. Any head of state has the same ability. They just have to have their priorities set to care about others under their watch.
OF, no, they don't all have that ability. History is replete with leaders who were unable to lead their own people in the direction that they desired. Consider France in 1940. Often times it isn't really the fault of the leader, but rather the led. FDR clearly knew that the USA needed to support the democracies against Hitler, but the isolationist sentiment prevented him from taking the country where we needed to go. Had Japan not solved his problem, God alone knows what would have happened. If you can do it, great, but it isn't a given by any means.

RE: 200 Million Masks! - OutsiderFan - 04-10-2020

(04-09-2020, 08:58 PM)Goose Wrote:  
(04-09-2020, 07:24 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  Tne other point about political will. Leaders lead. They assign importance to an objective and rally people to follow them. I had to do this in my own household. Any head of state has the same ability. They just have to have their priorities set to care about others under their watch.
OF, no, they don't all have that ability. History is replete with leaders who were unable to lead their own people in the direction that they desired. Consider France in 1940. Often times it isn't really the fault of the leader, but rather the led. FDR clearly knew that the USA needed to support the democracies against Hitler, but the isolationist sentiment prevented him from taking the country where we needed to go. Had Japan not solved his problem, God alone knows what would have happened. If you can do it, great, but it isn't a given by any means.

This is a similar dynamic to CEOs and coaches. It was established fact Stanford Football could never consistently challenge for conference crowns in 2005. There were too many hurdles to success. So you could never blame the coach. Then Harbaugh and Shaw arrived and effectively proved the reason Stanford couldn’t consistently win football games was because the coaches before them that oversaw losing weren’t capable of leading the program to victory. 

The FDR example is interesting, especially given the Plot Against America running on HBO now. There is of course the Affordable Care Act example as well. The Democratic Party, following 44th POTUS, willingly sacrificed a nearly impossible to achieve Senate majority and House control, to get more people health care coverage. Somehow 44 got elected again, but his party was crushed. I”m certain they went into it thinking there would be bi-partisan support on such a fundamental issue but when it didn’t materialize, they went forward anyway, bravely putting their heads on the chopping block to protect the American people. There are always exceptions (and more than we would want), but I’m certain most heads of state in history would act contrary to political expediency to protect their people when push comes to shove.

RE: 200 Million Masks! - Goose - 04-10-2020

(04-10-2020, 05:05 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  
(04-09-2020, 08:58 PM)Goose Wrote:  
(04-09-2020, 07:24 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  Tne other point about political will. Leaders lead. They assign importance to an objective and rally people to follow them. I had to do this in my own household. Any head of state has the same ability. They just have to have their priorities set to care about others under their watch.
OF, no, they don't all have that ability. History is replete with leaders who were unable to lead their own people in the direction that they desired. Consider France in 1940. Often times it isn't really the fault of the leader, but rather the led. FDR clearly knew that the USA needed to support the democracies against Hitler, but the isolationist sentiment prevented him from taking the country where we needed to go. Had Japan not solved his problem, God alone knows what would have happened. If you can do it, great, but it isn't a given by any means.

This is a similar dynamic to CEOs and coaches. It was established fact Stanford Football could never consistently challenge for conference crowns in 2005. There were too many hurdles to success. So you could never blame the coach. Then Harbaugh and Shaw arrived and effectively proved the reason Stanford couldn’t consistently win football games was because the coaches before them that oversaw losing weren’t capable of leading the program to victory. 

The FDR example is interesting, especially given the Plot Against America running on HBO now. There is of course the Affordable Care Act example as well. The Democratic Party, following 44th POTUS, willingly sacrificed a nearly impossible to achieve Senate majority and House control, to get more people health care coverage. Somehow 44 got elected again, but his party was crushed. I”m certain they went into it thinking there would be bi-partisan support on such a fundamental issue but when it didn’t materialize, they went forward anyway, bravely putting their heads on the chopping block to protect the American people. There are always exceptions (and more than we would want), but I’m certain most heads of state in history would act contrary to political expediency to protect their people when push comes to shove.
OF, it appears to me you just contradicted yourself. You initially said that leaders lead, and all they have to do is "Any head of state has the same ability. They just have to have their priorities set to care about others under their watch." So what was Buddy's problem? Did he hate his team? Please! Many leaders fail. Often they are smart, caring, motivated, etc. They just for whatever reason can't get the people to go along.

Now Hitler, there was a leader. When multiparty support for him didn't materialize, he bravely went forward to "protect" the German people. (His words, not mine.) Not that I think the affordable care act is in that category, but I do think what happened there is not an example of good leadership. I also believe that saying exactly what I do think is too political and probably too off topic. However, effective leaders realize that 60-40 votes aren't going to cut it on real controversial issues. If  50 of your players absolutely love you and 35 of them totally hate you, I think your team will have problems. You have to bring the people along. If you can't/don't, it is entirely possible you will polarize the situation for a generation and make future progress very difficult. Might want to consider Robert Peel.

RE: 200 Million Masks! - BostonCard - 04-10-2020

Trump has been building his wall and clamping down on immigration despite congress consistently approving less funding than requested and a stream of negative news articles about it.  It is something that he and his supporters feel very strongly about, his opponents hate and a majority of Americans oppose (or at least, do not support) but don't feel super strongly about.

(this data is from last summer, but the polling has been pretty consistent: https://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm)

You can see similar patterns around things like environmental regulation where his supporters support, his opponents are horrified, and the middle thinks it is a bad idea but aren't uniquely motivated about it.

The point is that if an issue is important enough to the President, he has enough discretion and tools where he can go a long way to make it happen.  This president didn't prioritize pandemic responsiveness (it is the sort of usually boring nitty gritty government thing that is not usually very visible and not especially interesting to the president), but that has real world consequences.  Maybe 9 in 10 Presidents are occupied by more immediate concerns, but the idea that there really wasn't much the president could do is not accurate.

BC

RE: 200 Million Masks! - Mick - 04-10-2020

(04-10-2020, 10:35 AM)BostonCard Wrote:  Trump has been building his wall and clamping down on immigration despite congress consistently approving less funding than requested and a stream of negative news articles about it.  It is something that he and his supporters feel very strongly about, his opponents hate and a majority of Americans oppose (or at least, do not support) but don't feel super strongly about.

I thought Trump had largely failed in clamping down on immigration and that Obama had actually repatriated/deported many more undocumented immigrants?
https://thehill.com/latino/470900-deportations-lower-under-trump-than-obama-report

I mean, even CNN admitted it.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/13/politics/obama-trump-deportations-illegal-immigration/index.html

And incidentally, this has turned into quite the little political board.
(04-10-2020, 08:12 AM)Goose Wrote:  Now Hitler, there was a leader. When multiparty support for him didn't materialize, he bravely went forward to "protect" the German people. (His words, not mine.) Not that I think the affordable care act is in that category, but I do think what happened there is not an example of good leadership.

Yes, especially if you have to trick the citizens into supporting your plan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEjr9WchNkg

RE: 200 Million Masks! - Genuine Realist - 04-10-2020

(04-10-2020, 11:10 AM)Mick Wrote:  
(04-10-2020, 10:35 AM)BostonCard Wrote:  Trump has been building his wall and clamping down on immigration despite congress consistently approving less funding than requested and a stream of negative news articles about it.  It is something that he and his supporters feel very strongly about, his opponents hate and a majority of Americans oppose (or at least, do not support) but don't feel super strongly about.

I thought Trump had largely failed in clamping down on immigration and that Obama had actually repatriated/deported many more undocumented immigrants?
https://thehill.com/latino/470900-deportations-lower-under-trump-than-obama-report

I mean, even CNN admitted it.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/13/politics/obama-trump-deportations-illegal-immigration/index.html

And incidentally, this has turned into quite the little political board.
(04-10-2020, 08:12 AM)Goose Wrote:  Now Hitler, there was a leader. When multiparty support for him didn't materialize, he bravely went forward to "protect" the German people. (His words, not mine.) Not that I think the affordable care act is in that category, but I do think what happened there is not an example of good leadership.

Yes, especially if you have to trick the citizens into supporting your plan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEjr9WchNkg

There's much to say about realistic Presidential alternatives in the January/February time frame, but I'm not going there. I respect the constraints of this Board too much. Posters interested in a discussion might post over at Thunderdome if you like. There are a half dozen posters you might want to put on ignore, and maybe we can be civilized.

If I moderated here, I'd lock this thread.

RE: 200 Million Masks! - 2006alum - 04-10-2020

(04-10-2020, 11:34 AM)Genuine Realist Wrote:  If I moderated here, I'd lock this thread.

I agree, so your wish is my command! Invoking the "Terry rule" here - last few posts have been drifting dangerously away from COVID-19. Plus Godwin's law.