Outside Topic OT - Fire - Printable Version
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RE: OT - Fire - 82 Card - 09-01-2020
(09-01-2020, 09:10 AM)Mick Wrote:
(09-01-2020, 07:54 AM)BobK Wrote: Well most of California forest are Federal forest. So there's that.
57% of California's 33 million acres of forest are controlled by the federal government. So get off your butt, Mr. President and stop those fires.
BLM has a map of fovernment property holdings at https://blm-egis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=6f0da4c7931440a8a80bfe20eddd7550%20&extent=-125,%2031.0,%20-114,%2043.0
The colors are hard to distinguish. It helps to click on an area to bring up a box and cycle through the pages in the box using little arrows at top of box till you get to "Surface Management Agency." The notations are cryptic but can usually be figured out. Almost none of what is burning in the south and east bay is federal.
RE: OT - Fire - oregontim - 09-01-2020
(09-01-2020, 12:59 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Blackened forrest due to a massive fire is gross too.
BC
And damn, we have our share of that in Oregon too. I’m knocking wood because this summer has not been as bad as others for us, obviously nothing like California this summer. We have had several recent Augusts choking with smoke, and we also have large swaths of blackened forest.
RE: OT - Fire - OutsiderFan - 09-01-2020
(09-01-2020, 12:59 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Blackened forrest due to a massive fire is gross too.
BC
Not really. Fire rejuvenates forest. Clear cutting ruins it for pretty much ever.
RE: OT - Fire - Genuine Realist - 09-01-2020
(09-01-2020, 12:31 PM)oregontim Wrote:Indeed it is. But appearances can be deceiving, and seeing should not always be believing.(09-01-2020, 11:28 AM)Genuine Realist Wrote: Turning to the propaganda of photos of harvested forests, the propaganda element consists of the implication that the evil loggers will leave the forest in that denuded condition, rub their hands together and cackle like Snidely Whiplash, and move on to ravage the next forest. That's simply not true. Replanting begins even before the cutting is finished. Weyerhauser, among others, has always insisted it plants more trees than it cuts down, and no one has ever claimed foul.
...
What is not healthy are those lovely scenic forests we view as we drive up Highway 80. (I would imagine, by the way, that Oregon forests are even worse.) They may look and smell nice. But what you are looking at (I have come to realize) is the arboreal equivalent of the sums of Calcutta - trees wildly overgrown, stunting each other's growth, the sheer numbers preventing the healthy growth. It's counterintuitive to view the bare ruined choirs as good forest management, and the wildly overgrown types as bad, but that is apparently the case.
In my previous post on this I was referring to fact, an eye witness account of what I see every time I drive east from Eugene into the Cascades, which is an ugly patchwork of clearcuts that are wide bare spots on the hills. Photos that depict that are not propaganda, they are images of things as they are, now, in Oregon and Washington. I’m talking about what you see on any of the roads that go east from the Willamette Valley. It’s not all clearcut, by any means; there’s still a lot of forest; but what stands out are the glaringly out of place clear cuts and there are way too many of them. And that’s what you’ll see, today ... the word “propaganda” doesn’t apply to reality.
Of course these issues are never as black-and-white as we’d like. Lots of shades of gray. An Oregon family that owns even 10 or 20 acres of forest can generate single-digit millions once every 40 years or so when they cut it all down, and they almost always understand that it’s a recurring revenue only if they do the work to replant, and care for it. But after the cut, for a decade or two, it’s really ugly, changes the ecosystem, and exacerbates erosion. The tiny new trees don’t grow the same in an open sunny clearcut field as they do in a real forest. And there are interesting issues around the good of the common, and the rights of property owners, that generate debate. Both sides have serious thoughtful arguments.
But you can’t dismiss the images of the actual reality of it, what we see today, as propaganda. That’s dismissive and grossly inaccurate. The clearcuts are all over.
Regarding the comparison to I80, My wife’s nephew lived with us in Eugene for a few years, not that long ago. He’d grown up a city kid and he came to love the forests of Oregon, particularly what we call “old growth” forest. He discovered, to his dismay, that old growth is surprisingly hard to find. The drive east to the cascades goes through a whole lot of forest, but the enthusiasts share maps of the very reduced areas that are actually old growth. I’m not sure on which side of this discussion that fact fits; but so like so many facts, it doesn’t take sides.
It’s dangerous to dismiss reality as propaganda.
The appearance of a cleared forest may be decimation. But, like a harvested wheat field, it is actually a stage in renewal and regeneration - a passageway to growth. The reality is health - and when the image is presented with a different implication, that is propaganda.
Similarly, a green lush overgrown forest may seem to be in perfect health. But the reading that has come to light in this line indicates it is anything but. The comparison to a Calcutta slum does not seem to me a bad one.
The outward presentation is one thing, the reality quite another. It often happens like that. Apparently, we have been endorsing the wrong values - or rather, too narrow a set of values - since the Smoky-the-Bear days. Our good intentions have led to sickened overcrowded forests. I'm certainly not in favor of unlimited logging, but an expansion would be helpful - and the photos of cleared tracts now seem to me deliberately and cynically misleading.
RE: OT - Fire - Goose - 09-01-2020
(09-01-2020, 06:40 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Not really. Fire rejuvenates forest. Clear cutting ruins it for pretty much ever.Not really. Clear cutting removes all old growth. If it is replanted, you will get back a forest. It will take years, and it may not be the same type of forest it was previously, but it will be a forest.
RE: OT - Fire - BostonCard - 09-01-2020
Would you believe that in Western Europe and North America, forested land is expanding?
Quote:In the 1920s, when Ireland became independent, it was thought to have just 220,000 acres (90,000 hectares) of woods, covering about 1% of the land. Once-extensive forests had been shrinking for centuries. Farmers had cut trees for firewood and to clear space for animals and crops since at least the fourth millennium BC; some tree species were wiped out by disease. Beginning in the 17th century, most of the trees that remained were felled to build ships or fed into charcoal kilns to fire the Industrial Revolution.
Today, though, almost 11% of Ireland is covered with forest, and an unknown additional amount by small woods and scattered trees. The government’s target is to cover 18% of the land area with forests by 2046. Ireland is behind schedule. Still, about 6,000 hectares of new forest ought to be planted this year, while almost none will be lost. It is part of a broad trend: the foresting of the West.
https://www.economist.com/international/2017/12/02/trees-are-covering-more-of-the-land-in-rich-countries
BC
RE: OT - Fire - UltimateCard - 09-02-2020
Trinity County success story
“Dissimilar interests finding common ground and working together, it’s been brobdingnagian, a brobdingnagian change after 40 years of polarization.”
RE: OT - Fire - Genuine Realist - 09-03-2020
(09-02-2020, 10:04 PM)UltimateCard Wrote: Trinity County success storyI have found this whole line somewhat reassuring. The massive fires of the last few years' are in fact a natural and inevitable phenomenon, not an unprecedented disaster.
“Dissimilar interests finding common ground and working together, it’s been of immense proportions, a of immense proportions change after 40 years of polarization.”
It is easy to fall into the delusion that humankind stands beyond natural forces, able to control and manage the whole of the environment in which it lives. Not so, as these recurrent fires and another event have reminded us.
RE: OT - Fire - Maple Leaf - 09-03-2020
http://www.tularecountytreasures.org/mountain-home-demonstration-state-forest-v.html
The State of California set up a demonstration forest in 1946 east of the town of Porterville. Basically the forest management followed the same path as Mother Nature and local Native American populations had for centuries. The forest continues to generate commercial lumber.
As California population has grown over the last 75 years (end of WWII) the demand for outdoor recreation space has increased significantly, to the point where much of the forests in California (State and Federal) are now more valued for recreation activities than commercial logging, mining or cattle grazing. The US Forest Service used to depend on timber sales for much of their operating budget, with timber sales down the money available for forest management has been significantly reduced. Back in the 1980's 25% of the timber sale revenue collected by the US Forest Service went to the county in which the timber was harvested, not sure if that arrangement still exist, but those funds made a significant contribution to those counties. Proper forest management has suffered due to the lack of funding, political/economical disputes and though well intention environmental policies that failed to correctly address multiple negative impacts.
RE: OT - Fire - dabigv13 - 09-07-2020
Most of the southern/central California NFs are closing indefinitely starting 5pm today. Wow. Don't think that has ever happened. All campgrounds in ALL CA national forests closed. Seems national parks not affected at this point.
Upcoming weather looks like more abnormally hot/ry conditions so this may go on for a while...
Forest Service, Pacific Southwest Region (@usfs_r5) Tweeted:
Forest Service Temporarily Closes Southern California National Forests, Adds Prohibitions in Others.
Closure of @Stanislaus_NF, @Sierra_NF, @sequoiaforest, @Inyo_NF, @LosPadresNF, @Angeles_NF, @SanBernardinoNF & @ClevelandNF.
https://t.co/l5eiM9v4Z0 https://t.co/XXUlLWfXvg https://twitter.com/usfs_r5/status/1303030324398415872?s=20
RE: OT - Fire - Genuine Realist - 09-07-2020
(09-07-2020, 12:37 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: Most of the southern/central California NFs are closing indefinitely starting 5pm today. Wow. Don't think that has ever happened. All campgrounds in ALL CA national forests closed. Seems national parks not affected at this point.The weather is projected to break on Wednesday.
Upcoming weather looks like more abnormally hot/ry conditions so this may go on for a while...
Forest Service, Pacific Southwest Region (@usfs_r5) Tweeted:
Forest Service Temporarily Closes Southern California National Forests, Adds Prohibitions in Others.
Closure of @Stanislaus_NF, @Sierra_NF, @sequoiaforest, @Inyo_NF, @LosPadresNF, @Angeles_NF, @SanBernardinoNF & @ClevelandNF.
https://t.co/l5eiM9v4Z0 https://t.co/XXUlLWfXvg https://twitter.com/usfs_r5/status/1303030324398415872?s=20
Its probably more idiots who set off fireworks yesterday that prompted this move.
RE: OT - Fire - dabigv13 - 09-07-2020
Angeles NF indicating a one week closure on their social media.
https://twitter.com/Angeles_NF/status/1303092249429827584?s=20
RE: OT - Fire - dabigv13 - 09-09-2020
All California NF's now closed indefinitely. ~20% of CA land is USFS land that is now off limits.
https://twitter.com/usfs_r5/status/1303771607890944000?s=20
lex24 - lex24 - 09-09-2020
(09-09-2020, 12:32 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: All California NF's now closed indefinitely. ~20% of CA land is USFS land that is now off limits.
https://twitter.com/usfs_r5/status/1303771607890944000?s=20
Makes perfect sense. Close state parks as well. And if there are violators - arrest them. We need all the help we can get these next two months.
RE: OT - Fire - BostonCard - 10-08-2020
There's another big contributor to the fire risk, beetles.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/10/bark-beetles-helped-stoke-2020-devastating-wildfires/#close
Quote:The fear is that these enormous expanses of dead trees could, as a recent headline in the Los Angeles Times put it, “fuel unprecedented firestorms” across the West. In California’s Sierra Nevada this year, the fear seems to have been realized: The Creek Fire has so far burned more than 309,033 acres and destroyed 855 structures, and the U.S. Forest Service estimates that 80 to 90 percent of what’s burning is beetle-killed timber. During California’s crippling drought from 2012 to 2017, the Forest Service says, roughly 142 million trees died, mostly in low-elevation ponderosa-pine forests.
(emphasis mine)
BC
RE: OT - Fire - dabigv13 - 10-08-2020
Was just in SWest Utah for a week camping, and there is a lot of beetle affected dead wood there too. I was reading some of the signs there, and apparently it is drought related. I guess drought affected trees can't produce enough sap to push out the beetles that are boring inward.