Ledecky's NCAA record at risk. Should it be? Too Controversial of a Topic? (merged) - Printable Version
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RE: Ledecky's NCAA record is at risk. Should it be? - cardcrimson - 12-11-2021
(12-11-2021, 03:38 AM)M T Wrote: This new thread brings into focus one particular testosterone-advantaged individual versus one not-advantaged individual.
While it is a worthy topic, I would have encouraged it being a new post in that older thread, so we don't repeat the same discussions.
A lot of the first thread was conjecture and potential. It is now happening. A trans female is blowing a lot of cisgender women out of the water. Apparently many of the cisgender women who have trained much of their lives aren't happy about it, but afraid to speak out in fear of being cancelled.
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record is at risk. Should it be? - PersonalLegend - 12-11-2021
[/quote]
Not that tough. You have one that is for individuals born female and one that is open to all, including those born female.
Easy.
In that world should Katie Ledecky want to compete in the Open division she could have done that. If someone is transgender either way they can compete in the open division. And if one is male they can compete in the open division.
However only those born and currently female can compete in the female program.
[/quote]
Funny, that’s what most people I know thought we had until trans women started participating in Women’s sports.
This will be a women’s rights issue of the first degree. You guys may think that just because Ledecky—one of the greatest swimmers of all time—is gracious that it might somehow mitigate the injustice are just like people who would say that blacks were happy with their own water fountain.
Gracious or happy don’t cover injustice.
Those who would say it’s a non problem because there just aren’t that many talented trans women athletes haven’t considered that the record books are perpetual. It only takes one excellent trans woman to demolish all bio women’s records…forever.
This is a real problem for the world of sports.
And I say this as someone who would otherwise be live and let live on the trans issue.
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record is at risk. Should it be? - BostonCard - 12-11-2021
(12-11-2021, 08:51 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:(12-11-2021, 03:38 AM)M T Wrote: This new thread brings into focus one particular testosterone-advantaged individual versus one not-advantaged individual.
While it is a worthy topic, I would have encouraged it being a new post in that older thread, so we don't repeat the same discussions.
A lot of the first thread was conjecture and potential. It is now happening. A trans female is blowing a lot of cisgender women out of the water. Apparently many of the cisgender women who have trained much of their lives aren't happy about it, but afraid to speak out in fear of being cancelled.
I would not be surprised if that last statement is true, but has anyone spoken anonymously about it (for that reason) or is the statement reasonable conjecture.
BC
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record is at risk. Should it be? - DC 86 - 12-11-2021
(12-11-2021, 10:36 AM)BostonCard Wrote:(12-11-2021, 08:51 AM)cardcrimson Wrote: Apparently many of the cisgender women who have trained much of their lives aren't happy about it, but afraid to speak out in fear of being cancelled.
I would not be surprised if that last statement is true, but has anyone spoken anonymously about it (for that reason) or is the statement reasonable conjecture.
BC
https://www.outkick.com/outkick-exclusive-penn-trans-swimmers-teammate-speaks-out-as-lia-thomas-smashes-more-records/https://www.outkick.com/outkick-exclusive-penn-trans-swimmers-teammate-speaks-out-as-lia-thomas-smashes-more-records/
... friction has been building within the team, according to a Penn female swimmer who said she feared for her ability to find employment after graduating from college for sharing her honest opinion about a transgender teammate. For that reason, OutKick is granting her anonymity to speak out.
“Pretty much everyone individually has spoken to our coaches about not liking this. Our coach [Mike Schnur] just really likes winning. He’s like most coaches. I think secretly everyone just knows it’s the wrong thing to do,” the female Penn swimmer said during a phone interview.
“When the whole team is together, we have to be like, ‘Oh my gosh, go Lia, that’s great, you’re amazing.’ It’s very fake,” she added.
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record at risk. Should it be? Too Controversial of a Topic? (merged) - TrumpCard - 12-11-2021
We start with a system that is fundamentally unfair. Women get to win competitions even though they are not the best at their sport. Other genetically disadvantaged populations don’t get their own category. In meaningful competitions, we sometimes segregate by age (but those categories mostly don’t win anything substantial), but we don’t segregate by race or height or any other genetic criteria except gender. I don’t have a problem with that unfairness, and in fact, I think it’s socially desirable. But we should recognize it for what it is because that unfairness is what gives rise to the difficulty of how to treat transgender athletes. If we start with the premise that gender categories in sports are fundamentally unfair, but still socially desirable, then it’s easier to say that we also are going to be unfair to transgender women, just like we are going to be unfair to other male-born athletes who fall into other sports-disadvantaged categories.
lex24 - lex24 - 12-11-2021
Not that tough. You have one that is for individuals born female and one that is open to all, including those born female.
Easy.
In that world should Katie Ledecky want to compete in the Open division she could have done that. If someone is transgender either way they can compete in the open division. And if one is male they can compete in the open division.
However only those born and currently female can compete in the female program.
[/quote]
Funny, that’s what most people I know thought we had until trans women started participating in Women’s sports.
This will be a women’s rights issue of the first degree. You guys may think that just because Ledecky—one of the greatest swimmers of all time—is gracious that it might somehow mitigate the injustice are just like people who would say that blacks were happy with their own water fountain.
Gracious or happy don’t cover injustice.
Those who would say it’s a non problem because there just aren’t that many talented trans women athletes haven’t considered that the record books are perpetual. It only takes one excellent trans woman to demolish all bio women’s records…forever.
This is a real problem for the world of sports.
And I say this as someone who would otherwise be live and let live on the trans issue.
[/quote]
Why not simply qualify the record. Indicate transgender. It’s factual and honest. BTW, this is not remotely analogous to Jim Crow.
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record is at risk. Should it be? - BostonCard - 12-11-2021
(12-11-2021, 11:09 AM)DC 86 Wrote:(12-11-2021, 10:36 AM)BostonCard Wrote:(12-11-2021, 08:51 AM)cardcrimson Wrote: Apparently many of the cisgender women who have trained much of their lives aren't happy about it, but afraid to speak out in fear of being cancelled.
I would not be surprised if that last statement is true, but has anyone spoken anonymously about it (for that reason) or is the statement reasonable conjecture.
BC
https://www.outkick.com/outkick-exclusive-penn-trans-swimmers-teammate-speaks-out-as-lia-thomas-smashes-more-records/https://www.outkick.com/outkick-exclusive-penn-trans-swimmers-teammate-speaks-out-as-lia-thomas-smashes-more-records/
... friction has been building within the team, according to a Penn female swimmer who said she feared for her ability to find employment after graduating from college for sharing her honest opinion about a transgender teammate. For that reason, OutKick is granting her anonymity to speak out.
“Pretty much everyone individually has spoken to our coaches about not liking this. Our coach [Mike Schnur] just really likes winning. He’s like most coaches. I think secretly everyone just knows it’s the wrong thing to do,” the female Penn swimmer said during a phone interview.
“When the whole team is together, we have to be like, ‘Oh my gosh, go Lia, that’s great, you’re amazing.’ It’s very fake,” she added.
Thanks DC. Appreciate you doing the legwork to find the quotes. I can understand the frustration.
BC
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record is at risk. Should it be? - cardcrimson - 12-11-2021
(12-11-2021, 02:33 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(12-11-2021, 11:09 AM)DC 86 Wrote:(12-11-2021, 10:36 AM)BostonCard Wrote:(12-11-2021, 08:51 AM)cardcrimson Wrote: Apparently many of the cisgender women who have trained much of their lives aren't happy about it, but afraid to speak out in fear of being cancelled.
I would not be surprised if that last statement is true, but has anyone spoken anonymously about it (for that reason) or is the statement reasonable conjecture.
BC
https://www.outkick.com/outkick-exclusive-penn-trans-swimmers-teammate-speaks-out-as-lia-thomas-smashes-more-records/https://www.outkick.com/outkick-exclusive-penn-trans-swimmers-teammate-speaks-out-as-lia-thomas-smashes-more-records/
... friction has been building within the team, according to a Penn female swimmer who said she feared for her ability to find employment after graduating from college for sharing her honest opinion about a transgender teammate. For that reason, OutKick is granting her anonymity to speak out.
“Pretty much everyone individually has spoken to our coaches about not liking this. Our coach [Mike Schnur] just really likes winning. He’s like most coaches. I think secretly everyone just knows it’s the wrong thing to do,” the female Penn swimmer said during a phone interview.
“When the whole team is together, we have to be like, ‘Oh my gosh, go Lia, that’s great, you’re amazing.’ It’s very fake,” she added.
Thanks DC. Appreciate you doing the legwork to find the quotes. I can understand the frustration.
BC
Was linked and quoted in the swimswam article linked above, as well. The comment section of that article is very interesting as lots of current and former D1 swimmers are weighing in. Here's the link again:
https://swimswam.com/anonymous-penn-swimmer-speaks-out-on-lia-thomas-presence-on-the-womens-team/
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record at risk. Should it be? Too Controversial of a Topic? (merged) - BostonCard - 12-11-2021
You know what else is unfair? Being born just before the age cutoff and thus being the youngest in one’s team.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-athletes-birthdays-affect-who-goes-pro-and-who-becomes-a-star/
BC
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record at risk. Should it be? Too Controversial of a Topic? (merged) - cardcrimson - 12-11-2021
(12-11-2021, 08:06 PM)BostonCard Wrote: You know what else is unfair? Being born just before the age cutoff and thus being the youngest in one’s team.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-athletes-birthdays-affect-who-goes-pro-and-who-becomes-a-star/
BC
True. There's also the penchant for parents "redshirting" kindergarteners in the hopes that their little darling would grow to become a stellar athlete. Looking at my wife's and my athletic ability, we had no dreams of that and sent our daughter to kindergarten even with a late October birthday; socially and academically she was ready.
Lo and behold, as a freshman she was competing against girls 5 years older than she, and girls in her class are 18 months older. Her thoughts? She wouldn't change it--just makes her tougher. . . .
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record at risk. Should it be? Too Controversial of a Topic? (merged) - akiddoc - 12-11-2021
(12-11-2021, 09:14 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(12-11-2021, 08:06 PM)BostonCard Wrote: You know what else is unfair? Being born just before the age cutoff and thus being the youngest in one’s team.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-athletes-birthdays-affect-who-goes-pro-and-who-becomes-a-star/
BC
True. There's also the penchant for parents "redshirting" kindergarteners in the hopes that their little darling would grow to become a stellar athlete. Looking at my wife's and my athletic ability, we had no dreams of that and sent our daughter to kindergarten even with a late October birthday; socially and academically she was ready.
Lo and behold, as a freshman she was competing against girls 5 years older than she, and girls in her class are 18 months older. Her thoughts? She wouldn't change it--just makes her tougher. . . .
You may not see it, but you put her at an academic disadvantage by putting her in Kindergarten at 4 yo. Every academic paper on the subject shows it.
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record at risk. Should it be? Too Controversial of a Topic? (merged) - Papa John - 12-12-2021
My son has a late October birthday and, at that time, we had a choice of putting him in kindergarten at age 4. His nursery school teacher urged us to wait a year, which we did and have no regrets. But the rules in California have changed and the cutoff is early September so today’s October birthday kids go to transitional kindergarten at age 4.
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record at risk. Should it be? Too Controversial of a Topic? (merged) - BostonCard - 12-12-2021
Back when I was in school, the cut-off was Dec. 1 (it has since moved back to Sept. 1 in most places). My birthday is Nov. 28. Turned out ok, though my athletic career never took off.
BC
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record at risk. Should it be? Too Controversial of a Topic? (merged) - M T - 12-12-2021
(12-11-2021, 11:22 PM)akiddoc Wrote: You may not see it, but you put her at an academic disadvantage by putting her in Kindergarten at 4 yo. Every academic paper on the subject shows it.
[thread drift]
I wonder if those papers evaluate individuals, or just medians. I wonder about the difference between the academic median of the group versus the upper & lower academic abilities of the group. Every child should be treated as the unique individual they are. If a child is advanced academically for their age, for whatever reason, is it better to hold them back by putting them with weaker students just because they are the same age? Classes are boring; the students don't have to work to have good grades, so may develop bad habits. (Tragically, I know such a case.) Of course, there are many dimensions that children are developing at the same time: physical growth, athletic, social, responsibility, emotional, as well as academic.
If you put children into situations that they are unable to handle, then that is a bad choice. But, if they are able to thrive, then why hold them back? If the education in your community is slower than in another community, then an academically advanced child may be academically disadvantaged by staying in his age group.
[/thread drift]
Getting back to athletics, when I grew up, your competition age was as of the day of the (last day of the) competition. One brother had a birthday the day before a standard event, so always had to compete against older kids. My birthday is in late spring, so I was usually among the youngest for my primarily summer-time swim competitions. (Gee, can I blame my limited success on that?) When I started Masters swimming, aging up every 5 years was when you all of a sudden got relatively better than your competition. For a few months, some nemesis would be in a different age-group (either they aged up before or after you). Later, FINA & USMS moved to using your age as of January 1. That provided a permanent advantage to those born late in the year relative to those born early in the year. I recognized that as unfortunate (but not what I'd call an injustice).
As for someone switching genders, I'd say it is unfortunate for someone like Lia Thomas that chose to make this transition if they are unable to continue their sport, but it is unfortunate to thousands of other female athletes to compete against her and her times.
Will Thomas had a good career in swimming. When he made the decision to change genders, he should have recognized that the future she would have an unfair advantage and should not have expected to take that advantage by competing as a female. IMO, the NCAA & FINA should make that their rule. Her having to compete with the men would be unfortunate for her, but not an injustice. Sad for her, but his decision.
Allowing for this kind of an advantage at an elite level (national championships, Olympic medals, world records, pro sport contracts) could lead to a strong financial incentive (millions of dollars) that might be the primary reason the next somewhat good male athlete changes genders and becomes a national or international-level female athlete.
Moreover, the individual athlete may not be making that decision by themselves in a vacuum. Imagine the outcry if in the next Olympics or two, Russia or China or the US has many, many transgender athletes in swimming, tennis, basketball, volleyball, track & field, soccer, ...
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record at risk. Should it be? Too Controversial of a Topic? (merged) - Farm93 - 12-12-2021
(12-12-2021, 02:54 AM)M T Wrote: Moreover, the individual athlete may not be making that decision by themselves in a vacuum. Imagine the outcry if in the next Olympics or two, Russia or China or the US has many, many transgender athletes in swimming, tennis, basketball, volleyball, track & field, soccer, ...That's not hard to imagine at all. Just a brief review of East Germany's female athletes in track & field and swimming in the 1970s provides a preview to that possible future.
I realize the NCAA may struggle to create a female and then an open division in the USA, but I don't think the IOC will have the same hesitation. Boxing, wrestling, taekwondo, and judo would also create additional complexities for the IOC. A transgender person beating throwing, kicking, or hitting an overmatched woman could be something the IOC will want to avoid.
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record at risk. Should it be? Too Controversial of a Topic? (merged) - needle - 12-12-2021
(12-12-2021, 05:50 AM)Farm93 Wrote:(12-12-2021, 02:54 AM)M T Wrote: Moreover, the individual athlete may not be making that decision by themselves in a vacuum. Imagine the outcry if in the next Olympics or two, Russia or China or the US has many, many transgender athletes in swimming, tennis, basketball, volleyball, track & field, soccer, ...That's not hard to imagine at all. Just a brief review of East Germany's female athletes in track & field and swimming in the 1970s provides a preview to that possible future.
I realize the NCAA may struggle to create a female and then an open division in the USA, but I don't think the IOC will have the same hesitation. Boxing, wrestling, taekwondo, and judo would also create additional complexities for the IOC. A transgender person beating throwing, kicking, or hitting an overmatched woman could be something the IOC will want to avoid.
NCAA sports should prioritize equity (as colleges do) and allow Lia to compete as a woman.
Professional women's leagues have no such overarching mission and should be free to act based on TV ratings, sponsor wishes and whatever is considered "fair" (this week). IOC somewhat in the middle, but, who are we kidding, should follow the lead of pro women's leagues.
Just my opinion.
Of course, an issue like this brings out the crusaders.
Several states have laws on the books prohibiting trans girls/women from competing with others of their same gender (my word choice), and the whole thing is just another big court case.
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record at risk. Should it be? Too Controversial of a Topic? (merged) - DC 86 - 12-12-2021
(12-12-2021, 08:00 AM)needle Wrote: NCAA sports should prioritize equity (as colleges do) and allow Lia to compete as a woman.
But my definition of "equity" (in the context of sports competition) is different from yours.
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record at risk. Should it be? Too Controversial of a Topic? (merged) - cardcrimson - 12-12-2021
(12-11-2021, 11:22 PM)akiddoc Wrote:(12-11-2021, 09:14 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(12-11-2021, 08:06 PM)BostonCard Wrote: You know what else is unfair? Being born just before the age cutoff and thus being the youngest in one’s team.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-athletes-birthdays-affect-who-goes-pro-and-who-becomes-a-star/
BC
True. There's also the penchant for parents "redshirting" kindergarteners in the hopes that their little darling would grow to become a stellar athlete. Looking at my wife's and my athletic ability, we had no dreams of that and sent our daughter to kindergarten even with a late October birthday; socially and academically she was ready.
Lo and behold, as a freshman she was competing against girls 5 years older than she, and girls in her class are 18 months older. Her thoughts? She wouldn't change it--just makes her tougher. . . .
You may not see it, but you put her at an academic disadvantage by putting her in Kindergarten at 4 yo. Every academic paper on the subject shows it.
Maybe so, but it has worked well thus far for her. Our fear at the time was that if we waited, she'd be bored educationally, which with her personality was a reasonable concern and so agreed some of the educators that knew her.
(12-12-2021, 05:50 AM)Farm93 Wrote:(12-12-2021, 02:54 AM)M T Wrote: Moreover, the individual athlete may not be making that decision by themselves in a vacuum. Imagine the outcry if in the next Olympics or two, Russia or China or the US has many, many transgender athletes in swimming, tennis, basketball, volleyball, track & field, soccer, ...That's not hard to imagine at all. Just a brief review of East Germany's female athletes in track & field and swimming in the 1970s provides a preview to that possible future.
I realize the NCAA may struggle to create a female and then an open division in the USA, but I don't think the IOC will have the same hesitation. Boxing, wrestling, taekwondo, and judo would also create additional complexities for the IOC. A transgender person beating throwing, kicking, or hitting an overmatched woman could be something the IOC will want to avoid.
Safety is going to have to be an issue, and it's not just with the sports you mentioned. Field hockey, lacrosse, rugby, soccer, even water polo could put cisgender women at risk if they compete against trans women. How many here have seen men's and women's water polo in person? The difference in the physicality of play is staggering as is the velocity of the shots. A post puberty transitioning woman could literally kill with an shot to the head, especially as women are significantly more likely to suffer concussions and head trauma than men. I've watched high school goalies take shots to head and chest that would be devastating to my daughter or any other cisgender female goalie.
https://constanttherapyhealth.com/brainwire/how-does-gender-play-a-role-in-sports-concussion-what-the-research-shows/
RE: Too Controversial of a Topic? - Mick - 12-12-2021
(04-14-2021, 02:27 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(04-14-2021, 01:53 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: Answer my questions and I'll answer yours.
I guess my opinion is somewhat biased, but not for the reasons you think. I'm the dad of a 14 year old cisgender female, who is working really hard to be a better athlete. She is finally getting to be pretty competitive at her sports at the levels in which she is competing, and has set some pretty ambitious, but achievable goals. Both of her chosen sports are separated by gender, where the males are traditionally much better than the females. So theoretically, a transgender female could come along and derail those goals, as happened to the girls running track in Connecticut. Extrapolating that across sports where such a large advantage can be gained, I would come down on the side that competitions should be held on a biological basis.
And no, I don't think the vast majority of these transgender kids are transitioning just for the glory of high school sports. That said, I don't think they should get an advantage in sports just because they are, either.
Advantage in sport (and its affect on participation) is a funny thing.
When I was in high school, I went out for football, broke my arm on the third day of practice, didn't play the rest of the year. Eight months later, I was working on the Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk, with the guy who broke my arm (defensive end, I was WR, he piled me into the ground). He had zits up and down his arms, back and face, and thinning hair and a physique that was -- well, let's just say I'd never seen one like it.
We got to be friendly, and he showed me the Dianabol that he'd been taking to bulk up. And about a month into the summer, we received a panicky nighttime call from our store down at the other end of the boardwalk about some intimidating gang members in the store (not uncommon in the 1970s). We went down in the electric cart that allowed us to transport items, we stopped at the store, and he "cleared the store" beating the crap out of two of the guys in the store, very savage. My first and last experience with 'roid rage. I just stayed out of the way.
Right at that moment, I made the decision not to play football any more. I didn't want to go up against a 'roided-out athlete who was clearly my superior.
Is it the point to encourage participation in sports against athletes who have chemically-induced advantages? Not from my vantage point.
(12-11-2021, 11:22 PM)akiddoc Wrote:(12-11-2021, 09:14 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(12-11-2021, 08:06 PM)BostonCard Wrote: You know what else is unfair? Being born just before the age cutoff and thus being the youngest in one’s team.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-athletes-birthdays-affect-who-goes-pro-and-who-becomes-a-star/
BC
True. There's also the penchant for parents "redshirting" kindergarteners in the hopes that their little darling would grow to become a stellar athlete. Looking at my wife's and my athletic ability, we had no dreams of that and sent our daughter to kindergarten even with a late October birthday; socially and academically she was ready.
Lo and behold, as a freshman she was competing against girls 5 years older than she, and girls in her class are 18 months older. Her thoughts? She wouldn't change it--just makes her tougher. . . .
You may not see it, but you put her at an academic disadvantage by putting her in Kindergarten at 4 yo. Every academic paper on the subject shows it.
+1,000,000.
I started school at the normal age, but was skipped a grade, completing third and fourth grade in the same year. My father-in-law had the same miserable experience. We both started our senior year in high school as 16 year olds. The disparity in maturity and capability between boys who are a year apart is beyond significant. And we both agreed that if there were one decision in our lives we could have back, it would be that one, for all the obvious reasons.
My oldest son was born September 10, and yes, the cutoff was September 1. My wife, blissfully unaware of the disadvantages faced by the youngest male in any sociological group insisted that he start school a year early to avoid an admissions bubble at our favored grammar school. And he would have turned out "fine" in the way that "fine" is used and considered by any husband who says his wife's dress looks "fine."
I haven't won many battles with my lovely bride over the past 30+ years, but I won that one because I dug in like a tick. And the kid turned out fantastic, believe you me, much better than he otherwise would have.
RE: Ledecky's NCAA record at risk. Should it be? Too Controversial of a Topic? (merged) - murky - 12-12-2021
I just read through most of this combined thread, and seems like something wasn't addressed, or I could have missed it. I know there are some physicians on the board, so perhaps they have some insight to share here.
Most of the discussion seems to take as the underlying model that people are born biologically a male or female, and perhaps at some point in their life may realize that their physical body doesn't match their gender. So may choose to try and fix that in some fashion.
But even biologically, aren't there a number of ways in which physical and genetic markers for sex be ambiguous and not be clear? I've heard reference to having an extra chromosome sometimes come up in these discussions. It isn't just genetalia, a quick Google search unearths this: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/12/181215141333.htm
Of course one can be born with more than one type of genetalia, and there are countless other uncommon ways in which sex traits may manifest.
How common does a condition need to be to warrant explicit consideration in these rules, vs. lumping in with other conditions?