New Coach. CANDIDATES? - Printable Version
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RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - Austroturf - 11-22-2021
(11-22-2021, 09:45 AM)Jamesy Wrote:(11-22-2021, 07:30 AM)Austroturf Wrote: I would contend that the decline, though less obvious, started even earlier. As has been pointed out by other Cardboard members, the largest single issue on the team today is soft and deficient line play. An erstwhile strength of the Stanford team identity has become a liability, as we are being regularly dominated in the trenches. This decline was already partially apparent in 2015, but really hit hard during the 2016 season. The 44-6 drubbing at the hands of the Dawgs in Seattle was primarily due to a complete failure of both lines -- an anemic performance that had never been seen before in the halcyon Harbaugh-Shaw days. McCaffrey (fresh off his Heis-man runner-up season) couldn't even crack 50 yards rushing. It was an embarrassment for the prior year's Rose Bowl champions and #7 team in the nation (at the time). Not coincidentally, it should be noted that this was two seasons after Turley's promotion (2014) to director of sports performance at Stanford, removing him from 100% dedication to the football program. This game made it clear that Stanford's days as bully of the block were over, at least temporarily: no more "intellectual brutality", or "revenge of the nerds", or "party in the backfield". The Dawgs picked our lines to pieces that day.
If there is one single statistic that best illustrates the decay in the prowess of both the O-line and our defensive front seven, it is the differential between rushing yards gained and rushing yards allowed. Whereas our best teams in the past dominated in this area, the current teams are being crushed. Here are the numbers since the inception of the Shaw era.
Stanford Opponent Diff.
2011.......210.6......84.4.......126.2
2012.......174.3......97.0.........77.3
2013.......207.4......89.7........117.7
2014.......158.8.....104.5........54.3
2015.......223.6.....139.3........84.3
2016.......208.9.....145.8........63.1
2017.......202.6.....169.4........33.2
2018.......107.9.....146.1.......-38.2
2019.......105.7.....150.8.......-45.1
2020.......133.2.....222.0.......-88.8
2021.........90.2.....243.8.....-153.6
2021 is almost a mirror image of 2011. These are the raw numbers and do not lie. I have no other explanation for this but complacency. Shaw is too smart not to have seen this year-by-year development. Latest in 2017, he should have been screaming at the athletic administration for a hand-picked S&C coach dedicated to the football program. And, yes, he should have been scouring the coaching ranks for top-flight line coaches. Also, not coincidentally, long-time D-line coach, Randy Hart, retired after the 2015 season. Shaw took no action, or none that was evident. The decay continued. And here we are.
Just for comparison, here are the numbers for Wlat's last year up to and including Harbaugh's last year.
Stanford Opponent Diff.
2006.........65.1.....210.5......-145.4
2007.......111.2.....169.3........-58.1
2008.......199.6.....152.9.........46.7
2009.......218.2.....137.9.........80.3
2010.......213.8.....120.8.........93.0
Anybody see a pattern?
Turley's promotion to Director of Sports Performance was more in name only and had no impact on his time commitment to the football team.
So did Turley's abilities decline during the years after 2014? Did he have worse recruits to work with? There's no denying the trend in the performance of both lines is down. What is your take on the root cause?
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - Jamesy - 11-22-2021
(11-22-2021, 10:20 AM)Austroturf Wrote:(11-22-2021, 09:45 AM)Jamesy Wrote:(11-22-2021, 07:30 AM)Austroturf Wrote: I would contend that the decline, though less obvious, started even earlier. As has been pointed out by other Cardboard members, the largest single issue on the team today is soft and deficient line play. An erstwhile strength of the Stanford team identity has become a liability, as we are being regularly dominated in the trenches. This decline was already partially apparent in 2015, but really hit hard during the 2016 season. The 44-6 drubbing at the hands of the Dawgs in Seattle was primarily due to a complete failure of both lines -- an anemic performance that had never been seen before in the halcyon Harbaugh-Shaw days. McCaffrey (fresh off his Heis-man runner-up season) couldn't even crack 50 yards rushing. It was an embarrassment for the prior year's Rose Bowl champions and #7 team in the nation (at the time). Not coincidentally, it should be noted that this was two seasons after Turley's promotion (2014) to director of sports performance at Stanford, removing him from 100% dedication to the football program. This game made it clear that Stanford's days as bully of the block were over, at least temporarily: no more "intellectual brutality", or "revenge of the nerds", or "party in the backfield". The Dawgs picked our lines to pieces that day.
If there is one single statistic that best illustrates the decay in the prowess of both the O-line and our defensive front seven, it is the differential between rushing yards gained and rushing yards allowed. Whereas our best teams in the past dominated in this area, the current teams are being crushed. Here are the numbers since the inception of the Shaw era.
Stanford Opponent Diff.
2011.......210.6......84.4.......126.2
2012.......174.3......97.0.........77.3
2013.......207.4......89.7........117.7
2014.......158.8.....104.5........54.3
2015.......223.6.....139.3........84.3
2016.......208.9.....145.8........63.1
2017.......202.6.....169.4........33.2
2018.......107.9.....146.1.......-38.2
2019.......105.7.....150.8.......-45.1
2020.......133.2.....222.0.......-88.8
2021.........90.2.....243.8.....-153.6
2021 is almost a mirror image of 2011. These are the raw numbers and do not lie. I have no other explanation for this but complacency. Shaw is too smart not to have seen this year-by-year development. Latest in 2017, he should have been screaming at the athletic administration for a hand-picked S&C coach dedicated to the football program. And, yes, he should have been scouring the coaching ranks for top-flight line coaches. Also, not coincidentally, long-time D-line coach, Randy Hart, retired after the 2015 season. Shaw took no action, or none that was evident. The decay continued. And here we are.
Just for comparison, here are the numbers for Wlat's last year up to and including Harbaugh's last year.
Stanford Opponent Diff.
2006.........65.1.....210.5......-145.4
2007.......111.2.....169.3........-58.1
2008.......199.6.....152.9.........46.7
2009.......218.2.....137.9.........80.3
2010.......213.8.....120.8.........93.0
Anybody see a pattern?
Turley's promotion to Director of Sports Performance was more in name only and had no impact on his time commitment to the football team.
So did Turley's abilities decline during the years after 2014? Did he have worse recruits to work with? There's no denying the trend in the performance of both lines is down. What is your take on the root cause?
I think it's a change in the type of recruits we're getting/culture. We used to get more under the radar recruits with chips on their shoulder that will outwork anyone and run through a wall for their team. Now we don't have that same edge and work ethic.
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - teejers1 - 11-22-2021
(11-22-2021, 10:20 AM)thunder_chik Wrote: My question is this: Why is Shaw the 4th highest paid coach in all of FBS? According to USA Today, only Saban, Orgeron (on the way out) and Swinney make more.
According to an October article by Jon Wilner in the San Jose Mercury, Shaw is by far the highest paid Pac-12 coach. FYI, in descending order:
Shaw, 8.9 million
UCLA/Kelly, 5.2
Utah/Whittingham, 5.2
Helton was making 4.8
Oregon, 4.4
ASU/Herm, 3.9
CAL, 3.6
CO, 3.2
WA/Lake (gone), 3.0
Wazzu (gone), 3.0
AZ, 2.7
Oregon State, 2.4
Can anyone tell me what justifies Shaw getting such a tremendous increase that far outstrips his contemporaries in the Pac 12?
1. There is no justification for Shaw getting the salary he does.
2. The reason why he is getting that salary is because Bernard Muir is brain dead, or at least was, when he decided in his infinite wisdom that a coach nobody would have actually hired away deserved a giant increase in compensation.
P.S. Hey JohnR, given the rushing gained/rushing allowed numbers from 2020, is your opinion on the success of the 2020 season at all changed?
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - Goose - 11-22-2021
(11-21-2021, 11:55 AM)ADPinWDC Wrote: Replace BOTH OffCo and DefCo. Shaw gets two years, then walks into the sunset.These list of replacements for the coordinators are at least reasonable if they are possible. Mason isn't. It is "been there, done that, didn't like it". No way is Shaw going to buy into being pushed out in two years up front. I also don't know what the relationship between Shaw and Mason may be. It could be a significant problem under the best of circumstances. Mason would be taking a big risk in accepting a job he left previously assuming he will be the "heir apparent", especially if the defense sucks for a couple of years, which it probably will no matter who runs it. I also expect he is totally fed up with coaching under recruiting restrictions that are greater than at his opponents. It was a problem at Vandy. It is a worse problem at Stanford. He knows that, he was here. Not happening.
FIXES:
OFFCo: Here is my nominee; He makes less than $1M at a state school, UVA as OffCo. Robert Anae.
Former lineman at BYU when they won the National Championship with Ty Detmer in 1984.
In 2019, UVA went to the ACC Champ game against Clemson. UVA is an academic school, in VA it is as tough to get into as Cal in Calif.
https://virginiasports.com/coach/robert-anae/
Our Defense is TERRIBLE; worst in Pac-12 by a mile. It was in 2019 also, at 4-8.
DefCo: Bring back Derek Mason (aka, the "Duck Whisperer" with the 3-4 D), now the DefCo at Auburn.
That's a tough sell. But, Mason might take it if he saw it as a ramp to Head Coach at Stanford. Pay him.
He failed as HC at Vandy; but that's a terrible spot, SEC doormat every year; no recruiting platform.
I doubt Mason thinks he could be head coach at Auburn.
With Mason at Stanford (2010-2013), we went 12-1 (Orange Bowl), 11-2 (Fiesta), 12-2 (Rose), 11-3 (Rose).
BCS Bowl every year, with superior defense, and 44W-8L over four seasons.
Wildcard: Rocky Long (now at Univ New Mexico, age 71),
who had a great record tormenting us with the 3-3-5 Defense at SDState (2009-2019).
Long could be a 2-year hire to right the ship. NEW THINKING.
I would LOVE to have Rocky Long be the DC at Stanford, just to hear him talk. He tells it like it is. However, he is basically retired. He left SDSU voluntarily. They wanted him to stay on as at least the DC, but he felt it best to step away. The gig at New Mexico happened after he had hung them up and is a "special place" in his heart. Rocky Long is also almost certainly not a "Stanford Guy". He wouldn't like it here. He isn't PC enough, to say the least.
Robert Anae looks interesting to me. This could be an upgrade, and if he could be persuaded to come here, it might help. Have at it.
However, despite the fact many here think the coordinators are the problem (which on defense may be true), the far more serious problems are the OL coach and the DL coach. Those are the guys whose units have seriously under-performed. Those are the guys that need to be replaced. In fairness to Shaw, the OL position has turned over twice in four years. I suspect (but don't know) that wasn't totally voluntary on the OL coaches part. Unfortunately, it appears it hasn't helped. Shaw has hired two guys with a pro background. For various reasons I think Shaw has better contacts in the Pro ranks. I also think there are very few "career" OL and DL coaches in the college ranks. Most guys in that job expect to become coordinators in a "few years".
Randy Hart was a big exception. He had 36 years experience before he arrived at Stanford. He coached at UW for 22 years. He knew how to recruit and what it took to win the the PAC-XX. The Stanford DL is currently a mess. Recruiting issues have been a big issue. Reynolds looked like a good hire when he was brought aboard in 2016. Hasn't worked out IMHO. He also had a fair amount of experience as a DL coach, but 11 years of it was at the pro level. You don't have to recruit at that level, and you have limited input into personnel choices in most cases. If you have guys who can't perform, you cut them and try somebody else. Can't do that in college.
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - Austroturf - 11-22-2021
(11-22-2021, 12:20 PM)Goose Wrote:(11-21-2021, 11:55 AM)ADPinWDC Wrote: Replace BOTH OffCo and DefCo. Shaw gets two years, then walks into the sunset.These list of replacements for the coordinators are at least reasonable if they are possible. Mason isn't. It is "been there, done that, didn't like it". No way is Shaw going to buy into being pushed out in two years up front. I also don't know what the relationship between Shaw and Mason may be. It could be a significant problem under the best of circumstances. Mason would be taking a big risk in accepting a job he left previously assuming he will be the "heir apparent", especially if the defense sucks for a couple of years, which it probably will no matter who runs it. I also expect he is totally fed up with coaching under recruiting restrictions that are greater than at his opponents. It was a problem at Vandy. It is a worse problem at Stanford. He knows that, he was here. Not happening.
FIXES:
OFFCo: Here is my nominee; He makes less than $1M at a state school, UVA as OffCo. Robert Anae.
Former lineman at BYU when they won the National Championship with Ty Detmer in 1984.
In 2019, UVA went to the ACC Champ game against Clemson. UVA is an academic school, in VA it is as tough to get into as Cal in Calif.
https://virginiasports.com/coach/robert-anae/
Our Defense is TERRIBLE; worst in Pac-12 by a mile. It was in 2019 also, at 4-8.
DefCo: Bring back Derek Mason (aka, the "Duck Whisperer" with the 3-4 D), now the DefCo at Auburn.
That's a tough sell. But, Mason might take it if he saw it as a ramp to Head Coach at Stanford. Pay him.
He failed as HC at Vandy; but that's a terrible spot, SEC doormat every year; no recruiting platform.
I doubt Mason thinks he could be head coach at Auburn.
With Mason at Stanford (2010-2013), we went 12-1 (Orange Bowl), 11-2 (Fiesta), 12-2 (Rose), 11-3 (Rose).
BCS Bowl every year, with superior defense, and 44W-8L over four seasons.
Wildcard: Rocky Long (now at Univ New Mexico, age 71),
who had a great record tormenting us with the 3-3-5 Defense at SDState (2009-2019).
Long could be a 2-year hire to right the ship. NEW THINKING.
I would LOVE to have Rocky Long be the DC at Stanford, just to hear him talk. He tells it like it is. However, he is basically retired. He left SDSU voluntarily. They wanted him to stay on as at least the DC, but he felt it best to step away. The gig at New Mexico happened after he had hung them up and is a "special place" in his heart. Rocky Long is also almost certainly not a "Stanford Guy". He wouldn't like it here. He isn't PC enough, to say the least.
Robert Anae looks interesting to me. This could be an upgrade, and if he could be persuaded to come here, it might help. Have at it.
However, despite the fact many here think the coordinators are the problem (which on defense may be true), the far more serious problems are the OL coach and the DL coach. Those are the guys whose units have seriously under-performed. Those are the guys that need to be replaced. In fairness to Shaw, the OL position has turned over twice in four years. I suspect (but don't know) that wasn't totally voluntary on the OL coaches part. Unfortunately, it appears it hasn't helped. Shaw has hired two guys with a pro background. For various reasons I think Shaw has better contacts in the Pro ranks. I also think there are very few "career" OL and DL coaches in the college ranks. Most guys in that job expect to become coordinators in a "few years".
Randy Hart was a big exception. He had 36 years experience before he arrived at Stanford. He coached at UW for 22 years. He knew how to recruit and what it took to win the the PAC-XX. The Stanford DL is currently a mess. Recruiting issues have been a big issue. Reynolds looked like a good hire when he was brought aboard in 2016. Hasn't worked out IMHO. He also had a fair amount of experience as a DL coach, but 11 years of it was at the pro level. You don't have to recruit at that level, and you have limited input into personnel choices in most cases. If you have guys who can't perform, you cut them and try somebody else. Can't do that in college.
In my view, Reynolds is an obvious candidate for replacement. Now in his 6th season, he has overseen a complete and utter degradation of the D-line. In 2016, we still had Solomon Thomas to shore up the other weak spots. In 2017, we had "Horrible Harry" to provide some competence on the D-line. And then emptiness. The unit is nowhere near where it used to be, and there is only one person to point to: Reynolds. Of course, Anderson and Shaw, as superiors, carry some of the blame, too.
Regarding the O-line, accountability is less easy to assign. Through 2017 and the beginnings of the sea change in Stanford's O-line fortunes, Bloomgren was in charge. Then came Carberry for the 2018-2020 seasons. Now Terry Heffernan is in charge, with the only constants over the last four years being Pritchard and Shaw. The decline in performance is undeniable, and something needs to be done. Canning Heffernan would probably be a bit hasty and unfair.
Pritchard and Anderson should both go, no questions asked. Akina, too. If Shaw wants to compete at the highest levels of FBS football, he needs the coaching staff to get him there. He needs to find a Turley clone and insist that this individual be devoted 100% to football. Otherwise, the decline will continue.
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - gailtate - 11-22-2021
(11-22-2021, 12:20 PM)Goose Wrote:(11-21-2021, 11:55 AM)ADPinWDC Wrote: Replace BOTH OffCo and DefCo. Shaw gets two years, then walks into the sunset.These list of replacements for the coordinators are at least reasonable if they are possible. Mason isn't. It is "been there, done that, didn't like it". No way is Shaw going to buy into being pushed out in two years up front. I also don't know what the relationship between Shaw and Mason may be. It could be a significant problem under the best of circumstances. Mason would be taking a big risk in accepting a job he left previously assuming he will be the "heir apparent", especially if the defense sucks for a couple of years, which it probably will no matter who runs it. I also expect he is totally fed up with coaching under recruiting restrictions that are greater than at his opponents. It was a problem at Vandy. It is a worse problem at Stanford. He knows that, he was here. Not happening.
FIXES:
OFFCo: Here is my nominee; He makes less than $1M at a state school, UVA as OffCo. Robert Anae.
Former lineman at BYU when they won the National Championship with Ty Detmer in 1984.
In 2019, UVA went to the ACC Champ game against Clemson. UVA is an academic school, in VA it is as tough to get into as Cal in Calif.
https://virginiasports.com/coach/robert-anae/
Our Defense is TERRIBLE; worst in Pac-12 by a mile. It was in 2019 also, at 4-8.
DefCo: Bring back Derek Mason (aka, the "Duck Whisperer" with the 3-4 D), now the DefCo at Auburn.
That's a tough sell. But, Mason might take it if he saw it as a ramp to Head Coach at Stanford. Pay him.
He failed as HC at Vandy; but that's a terrible spot, SEC doormat every year; no recruiting platform.
I doubt Mason thinks he could be head coach at Auburn.
With Mason at Stanford (2010-2013), we went 12-1 (Orange Bowl), 11-2 (Fiesta), 12-2 (Rose), 11-3 (Rose).
BCS Bowl every year, with superior defense, and 44W-8L over four seasons.
Wildcard: Rocky Long (now at Univ New Mexico, age 71),
who had a great record tormenting us with the 3-3-5 Defense at SDState (2009-2019).
Long could be a 2-year hire to right the ship. NEW THINKING.
I would LOVE to have Rocky Long be the DC at Stanford, just to hear him talk. He tells it like it is. However, he is basically retired. He left SDSU voluntarily. They wanted him to stay on as at least the DC, but he felt it best to step away. The gig at New Mexico happened after he had hung them up and is a "special place" in his heart. Rocky Long is also almost certainly not a "Stanford Guy". He wouldn't like it here. He isn't PC enough, to say the least.
Robert Anae looks interesting to me. This could be an upgrade, and if he could be persuaded to come here, it might help. Have at it.
However, despite the fact many here think the coordinators are the problem (which on defense may be true), the far more serious problems are the OL coach and the DL coach. Those are the guys whose units have seriously under-performed. Those are the guys that need to be replaced. In fairness to Shaw, the OL position has turned over twice in four years. I suspect (but don't know) that wasn't totally voluntary on the OL coaches part. Unfortunately, it appears it hasn't helped. Shaw has hired two guys with a pro background. For various reasons I think Shaw has better contacts in the Pro ranks. I also think there are very few "career" OL and DL coaches in the college ranks. Most guys in that job expect to become coordinators in a "few years".
Randy Hart was a big exception. He had 36 years experience before he arrived at Stanford. He coached at UW for 22 years. He knew how to recruit and what it took to win the the PAC-XX. The Stanford DL is currently a mess. Recruiting issues have been a big issue. Reynolds looked like a good hire when he was brought aboard in 2016. Hasn't worked out IMHO. He also had a fair amount of experience as a DL coach, but 11 years of it was at the pro level. You don't have to recruit at that level, and you have limited input into personnel choices in most cases. If you have guys who can't perform, you cut them and try somebody else. Can't do that in college.
What you can do is recruit guys who are fundamentally good athletes AND temperamentally nasty and edgy (think DeCastro or Skov, Thomas, Murphy, et, al.), with chips on their shoulders. Then coach them up one-star. You want football players with in-your-face, game-long tenacity. Not thugs, studs inculcated with discipline. You need a staff that drills it and grades it everyday. Where did I learn this? Building A Champion, by Bill Walsh.
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - DC 86 - 11-22-2021
(11-22-2021, 12:20 PM)Goose Wrote: I also think there are very few "career" OL and DL coaches in the college ranks. Most guys in that job expect to become coordinators in a "few years".
This is incorrect. OL and DL coaches are by far the most likely to coach those units for a long time without ascending to coordinator. Because of the proliferation of passing offenses QB coach is the most common path to being an OC and LB or DB coach the most common to being a DC. Check out the bios for current top-20 coordinators, you will be hard pressed to find coaches who moved up from coaching the line.
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - Goose - 11-22-2021
(11-22-2021, 02:28 PM)DC 86 Wrote:I don't disagree that OL and DL guys usually don't move up the list. However, my point was they generally expect to do so. They coach OL and DL for a while, move around a lot, and then realize they aren't getting anywhere. Then they go do something else. If you know of any Randy Hart types out there that made a career of it, by all means suggest their names and we can at least discuss attracting them.(11-22-2021, 12:20 PM)Goose Wrote: I also think there are very few "career" OL and DL coaches in the college ranks. Most guys in that job expect to become coordinators in a "few years".
This is incorrect. OL and DL coaches are by far the most likely to coach those units for a long time without ascending to coordinator. Because of the proliferation of passing offenses QB coach is the most common path to being an OC and LB or DB coach the most common to being a DC. Check out the bios for current top-20 coordinators, you will be hard pressed to find coaches who moved up from coaching the line.
(11-22-2021, 01:12 PM)gailtate Wrote: What you can do is recruit guys who are fundamentally good athletes AND temperamentally nasty and edgy (think DeCastro or Skov, Thomas, Murphy, et, al.), with chips on their shoulders. Then coach them up one-star. You want football players with in-your-face, game-long tenacity. Not thugs, studs inculcated with discipline. You need a staff that drills it and grades it everyday. Where did I learn this? Building A Champion, by Bill Walsh.This I totally agree with. However, I would conjecture that just about everybody coaching at Stanford has read Building a Champion. They undoubtedly agree with it as well. I think that possibly what you are getting at is that Stanford, particularly on the OL, has been focusing on recruiting 4* and up players without paying adequate attention to how much desire to be a "winner" these guys had, and how they could play together. The whole seems to be less than the sum of the parts. I feel that way myself. The will to win can be expressed in many ways. It doesn't necessarily mean being vocal, but it does mean giving your 110%. My feeling is just based on an impression however. I don't know the guys personally. I couldn't identify who has "it" and who does not. The chemistry just seems to be missing, and has been for a while. I don't know how to fix that. Obviously, Walsh didn't either in 1993 and 1994.
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - winflop - 11-22-2021
I don't think there's a single player on that field who isn't giving everything they have. The problem is that at the core they either a) lack the talent, b) aren't well-coached, or c) both. Regardless of which one it is, it falls on the coaches who are responsible for both recruiting and developing.
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - DC 86 - 11-22-2021
(11-22-2021, 03:27 PM)Goose Wrote:(11-22-2021, 02:28 PM)DC 86 Wrote:I don't disagree that OL and DL guys usually don't move up the list. However, my point was they generally expect to do so. They coach OL and DL for a while, move around a lot, and then realize they aren't getting anywhere. Then they go do something else. If you know of any Randy Hart types out there that made a career of it, by all means suggest their names and we can at least discuss attracting them.(11-22-2021, 12:20 PM)Goose Wrote: I also think there are very few "career" OL and DL coaches in the college ranks. Most guys in that job expect to become coordinators in a "few years".
This is incorrect. OL and DL coaches are by far the most likely to coach those units for a long time without ascending to coordinator. Because of the proliferation of passing offenses QB coach is the most common path to being an OC and LB or DB coach the most common to being a DC. Check out the bios for current top-20 coordinators, you will be hard pressed to find coaches who moved up from coaching the line.
That's just not true. There are dozens of long-tenured line coaches in FBS. Coaches who get into the profession understand that it's probably not a path to being an OC. Whether Stanford is willing to do what it takes to bring them here is another matter but there are lots of Randy Hart types. The long-tenured OL or DL coach has some degree of stability and often survives a coaching change, so it's not that realistic for a lateral move to be enticing unless a big raise is involved. Names: Larry Johnson, Bill Bedenbaugh, Robbie Caldwell, Glen Elarbee, Chris Kapilovic, Greg Studrawa, Greg Adkins, Brent Key, Brad Davis, James Cregg, Josh Henson ... I could go on. But they're not coming to Stanford at present, they make upwards of $500k/year living in places with low cost of living, they have job security (for the most part, not all) and many have roots where they played or have been coaching. It's QB coaches who are usually the young hotshots who move around a lot and quit if they don't move up.
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - Maple Leaf - 11-22-2021
(11-22-2021, 04:00 PM)winflop Wrote: I don't think there's a single player on that field who isn't giving everything they have. The problem is that at the core they either a) lack the talent, b) aren't well-coached, or c) both. Regardless of which one it is, it falls on the coaches who are responsible for both recruiting and developing.
agree 1000%
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - Phogge - 11-22-2021
You are not giving 100% if you arm tackle in situations where you need to lower your shoulder. It's one thing to be out of place (Williams, Damuni, Miezan, Williamson, others) and another to wave at a ballcarrier as he beats you.
You are not giving 100% if you arm tackle in situations where you need to lower your shoulder. It's one thing to be out of place (Williams, Damuni, Miezan, Williamson, others) and another to wave at a ballcarrier as he beats you.
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - Goose - 11-22-2021
(11-22-2021, 04:10 PM)DC 86 Wrote: That's just not true. There are dozens of long-tenured line coaches in FBS. Coaches who get into the profession understand that it's probably not a path to being an OC. Whether Stanford is willing to do what it takes to bring them here is another matter but there are lots of Randy Hart types. The long-tenured OL or DL coach has some degree of stability and often survives a coaching change, so it's not that realistic for a lateral move to be enticing unless a big raise is involved. Names: Larry Johnson, Bill Bedenbaugh, Robbie Caldwell, Glen Elarbee, Chris Kapilovic, Greg Studrawa, Greg Adkins, Brent Key, Brad Davis, James Cregg, Josh Henson ... I could go on. But they're not coming to Stanford at present, they make upwards of $500k/year living in places with low cost of living, they have job security (for the most part, not all) and many have roots where they played or have been coaching. It's QB coaches who are usually the young hotshots who move around a lot and quit if they don't move up.
OK, I stand corrected. There are Randy Hart types but they aren't coming to Stanford. You seem to think some might if we pay them enough. That may be, perhaps we should try. I suspect most of them won't come a) because of the money (correctable) b) because they have stability and "tenure" where they are (maybe correctable), and c) because their recruiting pool will be so small they can't use their tried and true methods to succeed (not correctable). But there may be somebody out there that will and wants to do so. If you know who that might be, lets take a look.
If we can get a great experienced DL coach, even if it costs money, it seems it would be well worth it. I am aware that things that look good in theory sometimes don't work out in practice, but if we can identify a guy who wants to come, has a good track record in college, and understands the challenges, I think it is worth a shot. This approach directly attacks a problem I think everybody, including Shaw, would concede exists.
The OL situation is similar IMHO. Many would say we haven't given the current "new" guy enough time, but if we can find somebody with a great college track record, I would go for it. Heffernan's resume doesn't wow me. If the new guy has a significantly longer and more impressive track record, we should make the move. We shouldn't replace like with like however. It needs to be a clear upgrade.
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - Giants - 11-22-2021
(11-22-2021, 10:20 AM)thunder_chik Wrote: My question is this: Why is Shaw the 4th highest paid coach in all of FBS? According to USA Today, only Saban, Orgeron (on the way out) and Swinney make more.
According to an October article by Jon Wilner in the San Jose Mercury, Shaw is by far the highest paid Pac-12 coach. FYI, in descending order:
Shaw, 8.9 million
UCLA/Kelly, 5.2
Utah/Whittingham, 5.2
Helton was making 4.8
Oregon, 4.4
ASU/Herm, 3.9
CAL, 3.6
CO, 3.2
WA/Lake (gone), 3.0
Wazzu (gone), 3.0
AZ, 2.7
Oregon State, 2.4
Can anyone tell me what justifies Shaw getting such a tremendous increase that far outstrips his contemporaries in the Pac 12?
Link to Mercury article Pac-12 football salaries: Which coaches are underpaid and overpaid? (mercurynews.com)
If you want to discuss the topic of Shaw’s salary, may I suggest you reference the extensive discussion on a thread that was posted a while back.
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - BostonCard - 11-22-2021
Also worth mentioning that about $3 million of that was deferred salary, so his actual earnings from 2019 (the date of the form 990) was about $6 million. That’s still more than any other coach in the PAC-12, and will amount to $2 million a win for 2021, if his salary stays constant, so it doesn’t invalidate the complaint.
The OSU coach is underpaid. Wittingham has earned his keep. Cristobal has earned his on the basis of his recruiting.
BC
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - murky - 11-23-2021
(11-22-2021, 01:12 PM)gailtate Wrote:(11-22-2021, 12:20 PM)Goose Wrote:(11-21-2021, 11:55 AM)ADPinWDC Wrote: Replace BOTH OffCo and DefCo. Shaw gets two years, then walks into the sunset.These list of replacements for the coordinators are at least reasonable if they are possible. Mason isn't. It is "been there, done that, didn't like it". No way is Shaw going to buy into being pushed out in two years up front. I also don't know what the relationship between Shaw and Mason may be. It could be a significant problem under the best of circumstances. Mason would be taking a big risk in accepting a job he left previously assuming he will be the "heir apparent", especially if the defense sucks for a couple of years, which it probably will no matter who runs it. I also expect he is totally fed up with coaching under recruiting restrictions that are greater than at his opponents. It was a problem at Vandy. It is a worse problem at Stanford. He knows that, he was here. Not happening.
FIXES:
OFFCo: Here is my nominee; He makes less than $1M at a state school, UVA as OffCo. Robert Anae.
Former lineman at BYU when they won the National Championship with Ty Detmer in 1984.
In 2019, UVA went to the ACC Champ game against Clemson. UVA is an academic school, in VA it is as tough to get into as Cal in Calif.
https://virginiasports.com/coach/robert-anae/
Our Defense is TERRIBLE; worst in Pac-12 by a mile. It was in 2019 also, at 4-8.
DefCo: Bring back Derek Mason (aka, the "Duck Whisperer" with the 3-4 D), now the DefCo at Auburn.
That's a tough sell. But, Mason might take it if he saw it as a ramp to Head Coach at Stanford. Pay him.
He failed as HC at Vandy; but that's a terrible spot, SEC doormat every year; no recruiting platform.
I doubt Mason thinks he could be head coach at Auburn.
With Mason at Stanford (2010-2013), we went 12-1 (Orange Bowl), 11-2 (Fiesta), 12-2 (Rose), 11-3 (Rose).
BCS Bowl every year, with superior defense, and 44W-8L over four seasons.
Wildcard: Rocky Long (now at Univ New Mexico, age 71),
who had a great record tormenting us with the 3-3-5 Defense at SDState (2009-2019).
Long could be a 2-year hire to right the ship. NEW THINKING.
I would LOVE to have Rocky Long be the DC at Stanford, just to hear him talk. He tells it like it is. However, he is basically retired. He left SDSU voluntarily. They wanted him to stay on as at least the DC, but he felt it best to step away. The gig at New Mexico happened after he had hung them up and is a "special place" in his heart. Rocky Long is also almost certainly not a "Stanford Guy". He wouldn't like it here. He isn't PC enough, to say the least.
Robert Anae looks interesting to me. This could be an upgrade, and if he could be persuaded to come here, it might help. Have at it.
However, despite the fact many here think the coordinators are the problem (which on defense may be true), the far more serious problems are the OL coach and the DL coach. Those are the guys whose units have seriously under-performed. Those are the guys that need to be replaced. In fairness to Shaw, the OL position has turned over twice in four years. I suspect (but don't know) that wasn't totally voluntary on the OL coaches part. Unfortunately, it appears it hasn't helped. Shaw has hired two guys with a pro background. For various reasons I think Shaw has better contacts in the Pro ranks. I also think there are very few "career" OL and DL coaches in the college ranks. Most guys in that job expect to become coordinators in a "few years".
Randy Hart was a big exception. He had 36 years experience before he arrived at Stanford. He coached at UW for 22 years. He knew how to recruit and what it took to win the the PAC-XX. The Stanford DL is currently a mess. Recruiting issues have been a big issue. Reynolds looked like a good hire when he was brought aboard in 2016. Hasn't worked out IMHO. He also had a fair amount of experience as a DL coach, but 11 years of it was at the pro level. You don't have to recruit at that level, and you have limited input into personnel choices in most cases. If you have guys who can't perform, you cut them and try somebody else. Can't do that in college.
What you can do is recruit guys who are fundamentally good athletes AND temperamentally nasty and edgy (think DeCastro or Skov, Thomas, Murphy, et, al.), with chips on their shoulders. Then coach them up one-star. You want football players with in-your-face, game-long tenacity. Not thugs, studs inculcated with discipline. You need a staff that drills it and grades it everyday. Where did I learn this? Building A Champion, by Bill Walsh.
Walsh II was a stinker going 3-7-1 in his last season and losing Big Game.
edit: I see Goose beat me to it, and more diplomatically.
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - gailtate - 11-23-2021
(11-23-2021, 02:16 PM)murky Wrote:(11-22-2021, 01:12 PM)gailtate Wrote:(11-22-2021, 12:20 PM)Goose Wrote:(11-21-2021, 11:55 AM)ADPinWDC Wrote: Replace BOTH OffCo and DefCo. Shaw gets two years, then walks into the sunset.These list of replacements for the coordinators are at least reasonable if they are possible. Mason isn't. It is "been there, done that, didn't like it". No way is Shaw going to buy into being pushed out in two years up front. I also don't know what the relationship between Shaw and Mason may be. It could be a significant problem under the best of circumstances. Mason would be taking a big risk in accepting a job he left previously assuming he will be the "heir apparent", especially if the defense sucks for a couple of years, which it probably will no matter who runs it. I also expect he is totally fed up with coaching under recruiting restrictions that are greater than at his opponents. It was a problem at Vandy. It is a worse problem at Stanford. He knows that, he was here. Not happening.
FIXES:
OFFCo: Here is my nominee; He makes less than $1M at a state school, UVA as OffCo. Robert Anae.
Former lineman at BYU when they won the National Championship with Ty Detmer in 1984.
In 2019, UVA went to the ACC Champ game against Clemson. UVA is an academic school, in VA it is as tough to get into as Cal in Calif.
https://virginiasports.com/coach/robert-anae/
Our Defense is TERRIBLE; worst in Pac-12 by a mile. It was in 2019 also, at 4-8.
DefCo: Bring back Derek Mason (aka, the "Duck Whisperer" with the 3-4 D), now the DefCo at Auburn.
That's a tough sell. But, Mason might take it if he saw it as a ramp to Head Coach at Stanford. Pay him.
He failed as HC at Vandy; but that's a terrible spot, SEC doormat every year; no recruiting platform.
I doubt Mason thinks he could be head coach at Auburn.
With Mason at Stanford (2010-2013), we went 12-1 (Orange Bowl), 11-2 (Fiesta), 12-2 (Rose), 11-3 (Rose).
BCS Bowl every year, with superior defense, and 44W-8L over four seasons.
Wildcard: Rocky Long (now at Univ New Mexico, age 71),
who had a great record tormenting us with the 3-3-5 Defense at SDState (2009-2019).
Long could be a 2-year hire to right the ship. NEW THINKING.
I would LOVE to have Rocky Long be the DC at Stanford, just to hear him talk. He tells it like it is. However, he is basically retired. He left SDSU voluntarily. They wanted him to stay on as at least the DC, but he felt it best to step away. The gig at New Mexico happened after he had hung them up and is a "special place" in his heart. Rocky Long is also almost certainly not a "Stanford Guy". He wouldn't like it here. He isn't PC enough, to say the least.
Robert Anae looks interesting to me. This could be an upgrade, and if he could be persuaded to come here, it might help. Have at it.
However, despite the fact many here think the coordinators are the problem (which on defense may be true), the far more serious problems are the OL coach and the DL coach. Those are the guys whose units have seriously under-performed. Those are the guys that need to be replaced. In fairness to Shaw, the OL position has turned over twice in four years. I suspect (but don't know) that wasn't totally voluntary on the OL coaches part. Unfortunately, it appears it hasn't helped. Shaw has hired two guys with a pro background. For various reasons I think Shaw has better contacts in the Pro ranks. I also think there are very few "career" OL and DL coaches in the college ranks. Most guys in that job expect to become coordinators in a "few years".
Randy Hart was a big exception. He had 36 years experience before he arrived at Stanford. He coached at UW for 22 years. He knew how to recruit and what it took to win the the PAC-XX. The Stanford DL is currently a mess. Recruiting issues have been a big issue. Reynolds looked like a good hire when he was brought aboard in 2016. Hasn't worked out IMHO. He also had a fair amount of experience as a DL coach, but 11 years of it was at the pro level. You don't have to recruit at that level, and you have limited input into personnel choices in most cases. If you have guys who can't perform, you cut them and try somebody else. Can't do that in college.
What you can do is recruit guys who are fundamentally good athletes AND temperamentally nasty and edgy (think DeCastro or Skov, Thomas, Murphy, et, al.), with chips on their shoulders. Then coach them up one-star. You want football players with in-your-face, game-long tenacity. Not thugs, studs inculcated with discipline. You need a staff that drills it and grades it everyday. Where did I learn this? Building A Champion, by Bill Walsh.
Walsh II was a stinker going 3-7-1 in his last season and losing Big Game.
edit: I see Goose beat me to it, and more diplomatically.
I don't define Walsh by his face-plant at the end of Walsh II. I think of the little things like resuscitating Stanford football 77/78 and those three SB rings. Kinda like a lot of you don't define Shaw by his...uh...shortcomings.
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - Goose - 11-23-2021
(11-23-2021, 07:20 PM)gailtate Wrote: I don't define Walsh by his face-plant at the end of Walsh II. I think of the little things like resuscitating Stanford football 77/78 and those three SB rings. Kinda like a lot of you don't define Shaw by his...uh...shortcomings.I too don't define Walsh by his "face-plant" at the end of his second stint at Stanford. I do regard his success at the NFL level as a separate thing. It isn't part of Stanford's story. Many of us in our hearts look at is as a continuum, but in reality it wasn't. I think what it actually shows is that the head coach, no matter how good, doesn't control the narrative. He is subject to lots of forces beyond his control. He may make all the "correct" decisions and it just may not matter. That is one reason why a long run of success is difficult to accomplish. Shit happens.
It is almost always true is that a bad coach will not be successful. It is often true that a "good" coach will not always be successful.
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - martyup - 11-24-2021
Here is my two cents on coaching. You need coaches that can teach the fundamentals at every position. Those are a dime a dozen. But, knowing football fundamentals does not make a good football player. You also need coaches that can teach players how to unleash their inner beast on demand. This creates players like Skov and Martinez. This is psychology and physiology training. Learning how to control your adrenaline levels is critical. That is the juice that runs the beast engine. Every player has unique triggers. One guy might trigger on glory, another on redemption, and another on revenge.
I had a football coach that told us to envision that the opposing team gang raped our girlfriend (or sister/mother if we didn't have one). He had us imagine every detail of the attack. We would do this exercise before a blocking dummy drill and he would ask us to focus all of that hatred into hitting that blocking dummy. It was an effective method of bringing on a controlled adrenaline rush.
Another trigger he taught was what I call the glory or respect trigger. He said that on game night, just after sunset, look up at the stars and envision the thousands of high school football games taking place that night all around the country. Every one of these players could look up and see the same stars that you saw. Tens of thousands of players were strapping on their helmets and trying to stand out on the field. Then, think of how you can be the one player that wins the night. The one player that everyone talks about when the night is over. The player that all of the college coaches want to meet.
On game night after warm ups, our whole team would go the the basketball gym and lay on the floor with the lights off. It was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. The coach would give us his motivational speech, including asking us to invoke our triggers. He asked us to give each other, the coaches, and the school the next 3 hours of our best effort and leave nothing on the field. Then Queen's "We are the Champions" would play over the gym's sound system as we rose and walked out of the gym, across the track, and onto the football field.
I see Stanford players going through the motions without motivation. Missing tackles is often the result of trying to make a tackle with the minimum of effort. The same goes for missing blocks. If a player had in his mind that his life depended on making a block, I bet he makes it. I'm confident our players have been instructed on proper technique, they just are not pushing themselves to their maximum potential. They aren't motivated properly. Proper self-motivation is how a 3 star recruit plays like a 5 star.
IMO, Shaw needs to find a master motivator to add to his staff.
RE: New Coach. CANDIDATES? - Austroturf - 11-24-2021
(11-23-2021, 07:50 PM)Goose Wrote:(11-23-2021, 07:20 PM)gailtate Wrote: I don't define Walsh by his face-plant at the end of Walsh II. I think of the little things like resuscitating Stanford football 77/78 and those three SB rings. Kinda like a lot of you don't define Shaw by his...uh...shortcomings.I too don't define Walsh by his "face-plant" at the end of his second stint at Stanford. I do regard his success at the NFL level as a separate thing. It isn't part of Stanford's story. Many of us in our hearts look at is as a continuum, but in reality it wasn't. I think what it actually shows is that the head coach, no matter how good, doesn't control the narrative. He is subject to lots of forces beyond his control. He may make all the "correct" decisions and it just may not matter. That is one reason why a long run of success is difficult to accomplish. Shit happens.
It is almost always true is that a bad coach will not be successful. It is often true that a "good" coach will not always be successful.
Actually, I think this paradigm applies to life in general. Business leaders, politicians, performers, etc. are often successful or unsuccessful only due to the context they are in. There are many examples of individuals who celebrated tremendous success in one phase of life, only to be horrible failures in another. They probably didn't change much. The context changed. They were in the right or wrong place at the right or wrong time. While shit happens, lots of wonderful stuff happens, too, and it isn't always a direct result of the individual's skills or efforts. Willingham was rather successful at Stanford, but failed miserably at Washington. Chip Kelly soared to heights at Oregon, but belly-flopped at the Eagles. Let's see whether Urban Meyer can write a successful chapter in the NFL or be just another failed college coach in the professional ranks. There is a lot of randomness in life; and it isn't true that the best always prevail.