WBB: Stanford 60 - Colorado 52 - Printable Version
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RE: WBB: Stanford 60 - Colorado 52 - Softball Fan - 01-15-2022
What a fabulous comeback.
In the first quarter Colorado showed the blueprint for beating Stanford; relentless, smothering defense. Oftentimes Brink and Belibi had a defender in their face when they were twenty feet from the basket. Colorado stuck to their players like glue no matter where the Stanford player was on the court. It made it difficult to pass the ball and get off threes.
In the latter stages of the game Colorado backed off some and IMO Stanford's height started helping on offense and defense.
Baez87 - Baez87 - 01-15-2022
Yesterday's article by Michelle Smith's on Jaylyn Sherrod foreshadowed the Colorado game. She spoke of how Coach JR Payne had Sherrod sit on the bench with her after her season-ending hip injury and hip operation last season. Payne said she emphasized "will over skill" to Sherrod and to her team as a means of controlling the game.
All coaches teach their players both skill and passion for the game. Skill is matched with intensity. But where does one draw the line? Coaches prepare their players to play a game, but it is a sport, not a war. If a player or a team plays beyond the standards of hard play and see their role as to win at any cost, someone is bound to get hurt. Sherrod's aggressive play resulted in Anna being pushed aggressively to the floor and it took her out of the game. Now it looks as though Sherrod's karma in the scrum that caused her to re-injure her hip may have ended her season again.
Payne should be held accountable for her team's over-the-top aggressive play. Sherrod bought into her coach's "will over skill" game philosophy, and it may have been at a significant cost. I like to watch passionate, skilled athletes play hard, I don’t like to see players knocked to the floor and writhe in pain. I was at the Holiday Classic in Hawaii three years ago and sat stunned with a hushed crowd as Anna lay on the floor without moving for twenty minutes after she was knocked into the court side chairs by an over-aggressive adversary. I thought that her career was over, or worse. This type of play is not basketball, it is a brawl.
Michelle Smith's article
RE: WBB: Stanford @ Colorado 6pm Friday - 81alum - 01-15-2022
(01-14-2022, 10:55 PM)M T Wrote: Although the result of the foul calls wound up in Stanford's favor, the officiating was poor.Yes, MT, I agree that the officiating was poor--but it almost always is poor. The problem with playing this style of defense is that the officials often feel as if they cannot call the game closely without causing it to crawl, and so the style of defense actually forces the officials to change their standards. (Crackpot nailed it when he said "So it's gonna be one whistle for every eleven fouls kinda night, eh?" In this game, the fact that Colorado paid a price for their handsy-pushy-shovey style did seem fair to me--even if many individual calls were wrong.
Mudhead - Mudhead - 01-15-2022
(01-15-2022, 07:30 AM)Baez87 Wrote: Yesterday's article by Michelle Smith's on Jaylyn Sherrod foreshadowed the Colorado game. She spoke of how Coach JR Payne had Sherrod sit on the bench with her after her season-ending hip injury and hip operation last season. Payne said she emphasized "will over skill" to Sherrod and to her team as a means of controlling the game.Very we’ll said and spot on substantively. The only thing I would add is that the game officials have a responsibility to recognize this approach and call the game precisely in order to keep the line between aggressive play and “maul ball” from being crossed. Game announcers who proclaim “ let ‘em play “ should accept responsibility as well.
All coaches teach their players both skill and passion for the game. Skill is matched with intensity. But where does one draw the line? Coaches prepare their players to play a game, but it is a sport, not a war. If a player or a team plays beyond the standards of hard play and see their role as to win at any cost, someone is bound to get hurt. Sherrod's aggressive play resulted in Anna being pushed aggressively to the floor and it took her out of the game. Now it looks as though Sherrod's karma in the scrum that caused her to re-injure her hip may have ended her season again.
Payne should be held accountable for her team's over-the-top aggressive play. Sherrod bought into her coach's "will over skill" game philosophy, and it may have been at a significant cost. I like to watch passionate, skilled athletes play hard, I don’t like to see players knocked to the floor and writhe in pain. I was at the Holiday Classic in Hawaii three years ago and sat stunned with a hushed crowd as Anna lay on the floor without moving for twenty minutes after she was knocked into the court side chairs by an over-aggressive adversary. I thought that her career was over, or worse. This type of play is not basketball, it is a brawl.
Michelle Smith's article
Mea culpa.. I am sure I see the Hulls play as great hustle and aggressive, committed play while opponents might see it very much like Colorado style basketball. But “fan “ is after all short for ”fanatic” I’m not a coach or an official.
RE: WBB: Stanford 60 - Colorado 52 - Goose - 01-15-2022
At this level the players know how to adapt to the officiating. Indeed the officials need to enforce the rules and not themselves adapt to how the players want to play. Call a few touch fouls early on and the players will get the idea. Unfortunately the officials often don't want to control the game, and as a result back off and "let 'em play". I get it that the officials don't want to be viewed as deciding the game, but the rules need to be enforced. If the aren't, not only do players get hurt but it changes the game into something most people don't want to watch.
RE: WBB: Stanford 60 - Colorado 52 - BillBradley - 01-15-2022
I completely disagree with the argument that Colorado crossed the line with their physicality. To me, crossing the line is when you get "cheap" and "dirty". Examples would be hitting a player in the private parts or undercutting a player when they are jumping for a rebound or shooting a layup. Think Bill Laimbeer. That's when I think it's gone too far and players can get hurt. Colorado is just plain tough and I don't think they are cheap shot artists. Playing physical and tough is part of the game and Tara has learned over time that Stanford has to shed the "smart and nice" image and match the other team's physicality. We know this because she has talked about it many times in speeches and pressers. I think this topic runs deep for Tara and I would go so far as to say she might think this is a major factor in some of our past teams not reaching the summit.
I think last year's team raised the bar for toughness in Stanford women's basketball. Although small, Kiana didn't take crap from anyone. And we all know how the Hulls play. Cam does a little too much flopping for my taste, but she is tough and doesn't back down to anyone. Our current underclassmen will learn from this group and hopefully it will pay dividends for years to come. In particular, I think Prechtel and Jump are way more tough and competitive now than they were when they entered the program.
If you ask our players about the game yesterday, I think they would all say that Colorado completely took them out of the game in Q1 with their physicality and hard nosed defense. But I don't think any one of them would say they went too far. The injury to Anna was simply a charge like she would take in any other game and she fell on her tailbone. The injury to Sherrod was also fluky. I also don't blame the refs for "letting it get out of control". My suspicion (that's all it is, I have no data here) is that our team, and most teams, would much prefer the refs to let them play versus calling everything. We'd much rather have Brink on the court for 30 minutes instead of on the bench because of hand-check fouls. I also agree with 81 - the refs do get put in a tough spot as the game will get ruined if they start to call everything. Yet they did call enough that Colorado lost the game because of their foul trouble. Seems like a pretty good job to me.
This is what I love about basketball. There are so many styles. But an aggressive, defense-oriented team that can't score will lose to a more skilled team that is ALSO tough and plays good defense. That's what we saw yesterday.
RE: WBB: Stanford 60 - Colorado 52 - teejers1 - 01-15-2022
(01-15-2022, 12:47 PM)BillBradley Wrote: I completely disagree with the argument that Colorado crossed the line with their physicality. To me, crossing the line is when you get "cheap" and "dirty". Examples would be hitting a player in the private parts or undercutting a player when they are jumping for a rebound or shooting a layup. Think Bill Laimbeer. That's when I think it's gone too far and players can get hurt. Colorado is just plain tough and I don't think they are cheap shot artists. Playing physical and tough is part of the game and Tara has learned over time that Stanford has to shed the "smart and nice" image and match the other team's physicality. We know this because she has talked about it many times in speeches and pressers. I think this topic runs deep for Tara and I would go so far as to say she might think this is a major factor in some of our past teams not reaching the summit.
I think last year's team raised the bar for toughness in Stanford women's basketball. Although small, Kiana didn't take crap from anyone. And we all know how the Hulls play. Cam does a little too much flopping for my taste, but she is tough and doesn't back down to anyone. Our current underclassmen will learn from this group and hopefully it will pay dividends for years to come. In particular, I think Prechtel and Jump are way more tough and competitive now than they were when they entered the program.
If you ask our players about the game yesterday, I think they would all say that Colorado completely took them out of the game in Q1 with their physicality and hard nosed defense. But I don't think any one of them would say they went too far. The injury to Anna was simply a charge like she would take in any other game and she fell on her tailbone. The injury to Sherrod was also fluky. I also don't blame the refs for "letting it get out of control". My suspicion (that's all it is, I have no data here) is that our team, and most teams, would much prefer the refs to let them play versus calling everything. We'd much rather have Brink on the court for 30 minutes instead of on the bench because of hand-check fouls. I also agree with 81 - the refs do get put in a tough spot as the game will get ruined if they start to call everything. Yet they did call enough that Colorado lost the game because of their foul trouble. Seems like a pretty good job to me.
This is what I love about basketball. There are so many styles. But an aggressive, defense-oriented team that can't score will lose to a more skilled team that is ALSO tough and plays good defense. That's what we saw yesterday.
Well said. And spot on substantively.
If anyone should be complaining (and I don't think they should), it's Colorado and Brink falling all on top of their player who dinged her hip.
I'm not saying or implying that Brink's play there was dirty or crossed the line - by all appearances an accident. But I am saying that of all the Stanford players, Brink is the one who borders the most on being out of control on D and/or taking aggressive defensive swipes at ball. And as others noted, the Hulls (and Wilson) are hard-nosed defenders. I'd put Belibi in that category, too. And that's what you want. The point: we should be a bit mindful of pot/kettle/black.
RE: WBB: Stanford 60 - Colorado 52 - JJJ - 01-15-2022
https://youtu.be/6rXjRxneO14
RE: WBB: Stanford 60 - Colorado 52 - jonnyss - 01-15-2022
(01-15-2022, 01:58 PM)teejers1 Wrote: [quote="BillBradley" pid='341517' dateline='1642276061']
Well said. And spot on substantively.
If anyone should be complaining (and I don't think they should), it's Colorado and Brink falling all on top of their player who dinged her hip.
I'm not saying or implying that Brink's play there was dirty or crossed the line - by all appearances an accident. But I am saying that of all the Stanford players, Brink is the one who borders the most on being out of control on D and/or taking aggressive defensive swipes at ball. And as others noted, the Hulls (and Wilson) are hard-nosed defenders. I'd put Belibi in that category, too. And that's what you want. The point: we should be a bit mindful of pot/kettle/black.
huh...brink was there, but i thought, viewing the replay, that a fellow colorado player landed on sherrod.
RE: WBB: Stanford 60 - Colorado 52 - 81alum - 01-15-2022
So as I think about the game I am puzzled. What happened to the Colorado defense after the first quarter?
Yes, I know we changed some personnel and yes I know we adjusted, but it also seems to me that Colorado could not sustain its defensive intensity.
I've seen that before in previous years--a team plays us very tight in the first quarter when they are fresh and dialed-in, but then the game will revert to something more normal. Did Colorado just come out so intense and fired-up that they could not keep it up for 4 quarters?
Colorado scored fewer point every quarter.
We scored more points every quarter.
You might almost think we were the team used to the elevation and not Colorado.
While I am asking questions, what happened to Lexie, who was 0/8? Who was defending her, and was Colorado doing anything special on her?
RE: WBB: Stanford 60 - Colorado 52 - mbdude - 01-15-2022
In the link to newspaper article above was another article; in it Payne mentioned Sherrod was fine and would most likely play Sunday
RE: WBB: Stanford 60 - Colorado 52 - BillBradley - 01-15-2022
(01-15-2022, 02:37 PM)81alum Wrote: So as I think about the game I am puzzled. What happened to the Colorado defense after the first quarter?Great questions. I won't pretend I know for sure, but here's my take:
Yes, I know we changed some personnel and yes I know we adjusted, but it also seems to me that Colorado could not sustain its defensive intensity.
I've seen that before in previous years--a team plays us very tight in the first quarter when they are fresh and dialed-in, but then the game will revert to something more normal. Did Colorado just come out so intense and fired-up that they could not keep it up for 4 quarters?
Colorado scored fewer point every quarter.
We scored more points every quarter.
You might almost think we were the team used to the elevation and not Colorado.
While I am asking questions, what happened to Lexie, who was 0/8? Who was defending her, and was Colorado doing anything special on her?
1) As you say, they lost their intensity. Why? Teams always get energy/inspiration when things are working. It generates momentum. It's a great feeling to get immediate results. It puts fuel in the tank. The turnovers in the first quarter definitely hurt in that we weren't getting shot attempts, but the net effect was much more than the loss of possession. It was the juice they got out of knowing they were owning us. The talk on the court, the swagger, the joy... Once we settle down and stopped with the silly turnovers, they didn't get easy buckets from the turnovers. They had to beat us in the half court and it was tough going. Over time they lost their momentum. I give a lot of credit to Sherrod for bringing it all game. She is special in that regard.
2) We stopped trying to initiate to the wings. Hannah and Lexie, our two wings in the classic sense, could not get open. When Lexie finally got the ball, she made bad decisions, tried to do too much. She was taken out of her game. She went 0-8. Instead, Tara went with two posts and we initiated through the high post or a dribble hand-off to the wing. No more trying to pass to the wing. That's it. Simple adjustments, but that's the power of this team. A lot of other teams don't have 4 posts who can all play! Or to play Prechtel and Brink at the same time - both who can stretch the floor in their own way (Ashten with shooting, Cam with driving). Alternatively, our starting lineup is crazy fast. The fact that we can play those different styles is a real advantage.
(01-15-2022, 02:31 PM)jonnyss Wrote:correct, it wasn't Brink who fell on her. It was Tuitele. Slow motion shows it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo9HzFo2NwE(01-15-2022, 01:58 PM)teejers1 Wrote: [quote="BillBradley" pid='341517' dateline='1642276061']
Well said. And spot on substantively.
If anyone should be complaining (and I don't think they should), it's Colorado and Brink falling all on top of their player who dinged her hip.
I'm not saying or implying that Brink's play there was dirty or crossed the line - by all appearances an accident. But I am saying that of all the Stanford players, Brink is the one who borders the most on being out of control on D and/or taking aggressive defensive swipes at ball. And as others noted, the Hulls (and Wilson) are hard-nosed defenders. I'd put Belibi in that category, too. And that's what you want. The point: we should be a bit mindful of pot/kettle/black.
huh...brink was there, but i thought, viewing the replay, that a fellow colorado player landed on sherrod.
RE: WBB: Stanford 60 - Colorado 52 - qwerty49 - 01-15-2022
I just watched the replay, having stayed away from the board until now. All my observations are pretty much covered by others already --- what a stinker of a 1Q, what we see as "maul ball" by Colo we see as "hustle" by the Hulls, let's hope the injuries are not too severe (we really need Anna and they really need Sherrod down the stretch).
Having said that, the one player who seemed deviously aggressive was Wetta, who got away with a lot of pushing and shoving. And if they were going to review Anna's screen for a flagrant, then why didn't they review Sherrod's pushing Anna down on that drive for the same?
There were a couple of times I was wishing we had the Hanson Brothers to come off the bench and do some enforcing. Old time hockey!
I am coming to terms with the fact that Cam and Haley are like water -- they will eventually seek their own level. Both were not exactly great in the first half. But both upped their game and were instrumental in the comeback.
The Brink/Prechtel post tandem was pleasantly productive -- I've not seen +/- stats but noticeably we played some great ball with those two, Haley, Hannah and Anna -- ie Hull-less. Which has to be a very rare occurrence over the past few years. When was the last time we saw our team playing so well without a Hull on the court?
Good to see nice contributions from Belibi and, particularly, Iriafen and VanG.
RE: WBB: Stanford 60 - Colorado 52 - mbdude - 01-15-2022
Ashten Prechtel talks Stanford’s 17th consecutive Pac-12 victory and her return home to Colorado | Pac-12
short 2 minute postgame interview
RE: WBB: Stanford 60 - Colorado 52 - CompSci87 - 01-15-2022
(01-15-2022, 08:15 PM)qwerty49 Wrote: And if they were going to review Anna's screen for a flagrant, then why didn't they review Sherrod's pushing Anna down on that drive for the same?
Maybe Anna should have curled up on her side and pretended to cry for a while.
Well, Formann might not have been pretending. But her going down looked floppish to start with, and she was fine after getting up. It reminded me too much of Texas A&M in our infamous Final Four game with them.
RE: WBB: Stanford 60 - Colorado 52 - 81alum - 01-20-2022
I just found this today. JR Payne is very respectful of Stanford. I haven't seen any Stanford pressers from the mountain trip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpJZLSPY7nk
RE: WBB: Stanford 60 - Colorado 52 - teejers1 - 01-21-2022
(01-15-2022, 03:16 PM)BillBradley Wrote:(01-15-2022, 02:37 PM)81alum Wrote: huh...brink was there, but i thought, viewing the replay, that a fellow colorado player landed on sherrod.correct, it wasn't Brink who fell on her. It was Tuitele. Slow motion shows it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo9HzFo2NwE
I just watched the replay, including slow-mo. It looks like Brink fell on her, not her teammate. Plus, it looks like the injury might have been a knee knock before the trio hit the hardcourt.
Regardless, it's good that Sherrod is fine.