Tessier-Lavigne research under investigation for scientific misconduct - Printable Version
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RE: MTL research under investigation for scientific misconduct, University admits ‘mistak - dabigv13 - 12-05-2022
Sure, at this stage what's known for certain is image anomalies. But any image that has been modified before publication is falsified, even if it's just making the lines prettier. And for all this smoke, I'm pretty certain there is some fire.
RE: MTL research under investigation for scientific misconduct, University admits ‘mistak - BostonCard - 12-05-2022
I would go back to Bik's comments in the original Daily:
Quote:According to Bik, this paper, which was published in the prestigious journal Science, contains figures with image alteration. “The photoshopping was done intentionally, there’s no way around it,” said Bik in an interview with The Daily after examining the areas surrounding gel bands for patterns and with forensic tools, though she added the motivation was unclear and could have been something other than falsification.
Quote:Bik and the other research misconduct experts who spoke on the condition of anonymity concurred that proving intentional malice from published papers is near impossible without the completion of a formal review. Ferric Fang, a prominent neurobiologist who has also served as the editor-in-chief of scientific journal Infection and Immunity, wrote in an email to The Daily that he agreed with Bik that several of the figures in the four papers “look problematic.”
“I am not saying that all of these image problems are innocent— just that it is not possible to…assign responsibility without a more formal inquiry and an examination of the primary data,” Fang wrote. “I cannot say more than that.”
If the experts in the field who have seen this many times are not willing to condemn MTL until the outputs of an investigation, then I don't think we should either.
BC
RE: MTL research under investigation for scientific misconduct, University admits ‘mistak - 82lsju - 12-05-2022
(12-05-2022, 04:59 PM)BostonCard Wrote: I would go back to Bik's comments in the original Daily:
Quote:According to Bik, this paper, which was published in the prestigious journal Science, contains figures with image alteration. “The photoshopping was done intentionally, there’s no way around it,” said Bik in an interview with The Daily after examining the areas surrounding gel bands for patterns and with forensic tools, though she added the motivation was unclear and could have been something other than falsification.
Quote:Bik and the other research misconduct experts who spoke on the condition of anonymity concurred that proving intentional malice from published papers is near impossible without the completion of a formal review. Ferric Fang, a prominent neurobiologist who has also served as the editor-in-chief of scientific journal Infection and Immunity, wrote in an email to The Daily that he agreed with Bik that several of the figures in the four papers “look problematic.”
“I am not saying that all of these image problems are innocent— just that it is not possible to…assign responsibility without a more formal inquiry and an examination of the primary data,” Fang wrote. “I cannot say more than that.”
If the experts in the field who have seen this many times are not willing to condemn MTL until the outputs of an investigation, then I don't think we should either.
BC
and I would feel much better about the investigation if it was being done by an independent organization and not the Stanford BoT who while they say they will use subject matter experts appear to not be well suited to execute this investigation.
RE: MTL research under investigation for scientific misconduct, University admits ‘mistak - BostonCard - 12-05-2022
(12-05-2022, 06:53 PM)82lsju Wrote: and I would feel much better about the investigation if it was being done by an independent organization and not the Stanford BoT who while they say they will use subject matter experts appear to not be well suited to execute this investigation.
Here I agree with you, though I am a bit less worried than you are. Right now, an army of people like Bik are scrutinizing every figure in his 250+ articles, so if this was anything systematic, then we will know about it. The issue is whether it becomes a greater source of embarrassment to the University because the school whitewashes the report, and then new allegations emerge.
BC
RE: MTL research under investigation for scientific misconduct, University admits ‘mistak - dabigv13 - 12-05-2022
(12-05-2022, 04:59 PM)BostonCard Wrote: If the experts in the field who have seen this many times are not willing to condemn MTL until the outputs of an investigation, then I don't think we should either.
BC
You probably have more experience in the scientific research and publishing world than I do, but my time at research labs at three different institutions working long hours on experiments that mostly don't work out leads me to read these allegations in a very negative light. Photoshopping results is a real affront considering how much failure goes in to actually advancing science.
Not sure if you have read this yet, but Bik goes farther here than with the Daily. A selection of quotes from her and others-
https://www.statnews.com/2022/11/30/stanford-president-altered-images/
Quote:The newly identified apparent manipulation in Cell is especially serious as it seems to alter the results and appears to be intentional, said Bik. “I would testify in court that’s been digitally altered,” she told STAT. “This actually changes everything. … It’s a more severe level of digital altering.”
The image in question is a western blot, which is used to determine the presence of specific proteins in biological samples. The authors claim the results shown in this western blot help demonstrate that two proteins only form a complex in the presence of a signaling molecule, which in turn, is key to supporting the paper’s findings about how these protein complexes guide the direction of the growth of axons, the long, winding projections neurons send out to connect with other neurons.
Rather than simply improving appearances, as some alterations may do, this one “appears to be changing the actual results,” said Bik.
Quote:Paul Brookes, professor at the University of Rochester Medical Center in New York who created a blog to flag signs of scientific fraud, noted that it can be hard to determine when duplication is intentional and when it is accidental. ”But in this case I’m inclined to agree that sections of background appearing to be cloned does not seem to be something that could have occurred accidentally,” he wrote in an email to STAT.
Quote:Bik said she disagreed with Stanford’s defense. “To me, automatically dismissing it is the wrong answer, it doesn’t show to me they care about scientific integrity,” she said. “At some point, you can’t just blame it on an error, it seems to be a pattern.”
.......
“These problems seem to be following him along his career,” said Bik. Even if Tessier-Lavigne didn’t directly create the images, she said, the fact that these issues have occurred on papers he’s involved in alongside multiple teams makes them harder to dismiss as the work of a wayward graduate student.
......
Research labs are often highly hierarchical, and Bik said that, though she did not know details of Tessier-Lavigne’s lab culture, a senior figure who’s repeatedly associated with manipulated images could be creating an unhealthy work environment. “It might suggest there’s an atmosphere he creates in his labs. Maybe intense pressure or an unwillingness to accept a result giving him different results than he wanted. … That’s not an unusual situation,” she said.
OK, let's wait for the investigation to be certain. But for me, on the balance of what's known he should step aside for now.
And I sincerely doubt they will be able to track down the original data for all or maybe even any of these papers, even if it isn't a whitewash. Will be tough to get anybody talking bad about a person who was likely instrumental in advancing their careers and if guilty would besmirch their own reputation. And there is no subpoena power here. Even a very motivated and well resourced investigation, which this does not seem to be, would be tough to reach firm conclusions of who clicked copy/paste or smudge tool etc, and who just didn't notice it.
Even the milder explanations for the image altering in all these papers is a horrible example for all students, postdocs, and professors. So for me, he should step aside for now.
RE: MTL research under investigation for scientific misconduct, University admits ‘mistak - martyup - 12-05-2022
(12-05-2022, 02:14 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(12-05-2022, 10:10 AM)msqueri Wrote: Not following the details as closely as some but my basic impression is that this adds to a long, long, long list of disillusioning data points that Stanford isn't the good guy we pretend we are. Just dismaying to see how often corruption and other vices rear their ugly head.
Denying admission to athletes who aren't elite in classrooms designed to create cogs in a machine, to create the illusion of moral superiority, while being corrupt and unethical, is the Stanford way.
WTF do you expect with a school founded by a Robber Barron?
I personally have never bought into the Stanford superiority ruse. There are no doubt very bright and accomplished people at Stanford, but it also produces some very shady people.
Perish the thought that High School kids who only get a 3.0 average while excelling in athletics, actually be given the opportunity to get a Stanford education.
Wow, you really have a deep-seated hatred for Stanford University. It makes me wonder why you want to be a member of this board.
RE: MTL research under investigation for scientific misconduct, University admits ‘mistak - 76lsjumb - 12-05-2022
(12-05-2022, 08:44 PM)martyup Wrote:(12-05-2022, 02:14 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(12-05-2022, 10:10 AM)msqueri Wrote: Not following the details as closely as some but my basic impression is that this adds to a long, long, long list of disillusioning data points that Stanford isn't the good guy we pretend we are. Just dismaying to see how often corruption and other vices rear their ugly head.
Denying admission to athletes who aren't elite in classrooms designed to create cogs in a machine, to create the illusion of moral superiority, while being corrupt and unethical, is the Stanford way.
WTF do you expect with a school founded by a Robber Barron?
I personally have never bought into the Stanford superiority ruse. There are no doubt very bright and accomplished people at Stanford, but it also produces some very shady people.
Perish the thought that High School kids who only get a 3.0 average while excelling in athletics, actually be given the opportunity to get a Stanford education.
Wow, you really have a deep-seated hatred for Stanford University. It makes me wonder why you want to be a member of this board.
… and you spelled “baron” wrong.
RE: MTL research under investigation for scientific misconduct, University admits ‘mistak - cardcrimson - 12-05-2022
Hadn't thought much about it for years, but Leland had a pretty impressive life. Growing up in Central New York, one of eight kids born to a farmer and his wife. Lost everything to a fire in Wisconsin and moved to California with his brothers, initially without his wife Jane. Started as a store keeper and, for all intents and purposes, a librarian. Pretty soon after, he was running railroads, insurance companies and shipping companies, was elected as governor and senator. Pretty impressive accomplishments. Yes, however, he did have some views on migrants and Native Americans that were more than questionable by today's lens.
Overall though, not a bad founder of a major university, imho.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leland_Stanford
RE: MTL research under investigation for scientific misconduct, University admits ‘mistak - M T - 12-05-2022
Quote:.... It makes me wonder why ....
I'll point out that the person that wrote the posting being replied to and the person that replied both have been on this board for more than a decade and both have made excellent contributions here. Let's take a breath so we can all cheer for the WVB team Thursday.
This thread is about something potentially serious and worthy of discussion. Let's not get it shut down.
RE: Tessier-Lavigne research under investigation for scientific misconduct - 82lsju - 12-06-2022
from today's Daily
https://stanforddaily.com/2022/12/06/cell-reopens-investigation-into-university-presidents-paper-tessier-lavigne-addresses-allegations-in-letter-to-faculty/?utm_content=Dec-06-2022%3Futm_campaign%3Ddigest&utm_content=Dec-06-2022
RE: Tessier-Lavigne research under investigation for scientific misconduct - 82lsju - 12-07-2022
another article from the Daily
https://stanforddaily.com/2022/12/07/some-stanford-scientists-encourage-president-tessier-lavigne-to-step-down/
and some additional info on the special committee
https://boardoftrustees.stanford.edu/special-committee/
RE: Tessier-Lavigne research under investigation for scientific misconduct - dabigv13 - 12-07-2022
Quote:“Based on the guide, had the research been conducted at SLAC I imagine we would already be processing MTL’s paperwork for dismissal for cause,” Chassin wrote. “The fact that his past research activities did not conform with Stanford’s standards at that time is the most relevant question in my mind, and these revelations should disqualify him from holding any current position at Stanford or SLAC. The credibility of the entire organization is at stake and it should be painfully obvious to all that his personal privilege is subordinated to that of the organization he leads.”
Amen.
I'm not as concerned as Bik is that a former DA is running the investigation, as long as they involve qualified independent scientists as well. This will be a complicated investigation and I think a DA has more relevant experience.
RE: Tessier-Lavigne research under investigation for scientific misconduct - 82lsju - 12-09-2022
opinion piece by a bioengineering PhD student from the Daily which says in part
Quote:Marc Tessier-Lavigne, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you weren’t directly involved in the data manipulation. However, as a leader, you need to step down or step aside for the time being. Right now, you no longer represent the best of us — because ultimately, in each of these papers that have been identified, you were a leader on that research team and ultimately responsible. You should have been in charge of making sure that the work that bore your name was held to the highest integrity. As a PI, you were in charge of ensuring a positive and honest environment in your laboratories. Instead, those environments may have become negligent — or, at worst, intentionally harmful.
https://stanforddaily.com/2022/12/08/opinion-mtl-step-aside-until-the-investigation-concludes/?utm_content=Dec-08-2022%3Futm_campaign%3Ddigest&utm_content=Dec-08-2022
RE: Tessier-Lavigne research under investigation for scientific misconduct - Mick - 12-09-2022
(12-09-2022, 08:19 AM)82lsju Wrote: opinion piece by a bioengineering PhD student from the Daily which says in part
Quote:Marc Tessier-Lavigne, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you weren’t directly involved in the data manipulation. However, as a leader, you need to step down or step aside for the time being. Right now, you no longer represent the best of us — because ultimately, in each of these papers that have been identified, you were a leader on that research team and ultimately responsible. You should have been in charge of making sure that the work that bore your name was held to the highest integrity. As a PI, you were in charge of ensuring a positive and honest environment in your laboratories. Instead, those environments may have become negligent — or, at worst, intentionally harmful.
https://stanforddaily.com/2022/12/08/opinion-mtl-step-aside-until-the-investigation-concludes/?utm_content=Dec-08-2022%3Futm_campaign%3Ddigest&utm_content=Dec-08-2022
Presumed innocent guilty ...
RE: Tessier-Lavigne research under investigation for scientific misconduct - BostonCard - 12-09-2022
It would not be unreasonable to ask him to step aside until the investigation has concluded. That doesn't make any assumptions of guilt or innocence, but does mean that the school will not be led by someone under a cloud who is distracted by an investigation.
BC
RE: Tessier-Lavigne research under investigation for scientific misconduct - TrumpCard - 12-09-2022
I don’t have any strong opinion on whether MTL committed any misconduct or should step down here, but I’ll note that temporary suspension with pay is a widely accepted practice when an employee is accused of misconduct. Presumption of innocence of course applies in criminal cases. The employer still has a burden in connection with a for cause termination (though it’s a lower burden). The recommended remedy here is less severe still.
RE: Tessier-Lavigne research under investigation for scientific misconduct - jonnyss - 12-09-2022
(12-07-2022, 08:29 PM)dabigv13 Wrote:Quote:“Based on the guide, had the research been conducted at SLAC I imagine we would already be processing MTL’s paperwork for dismissal for cause,” Chassin wrote. “The fact that his past research activities did not conform with Stanford’s standards at that time is the most relevant question in my mind, and these revelations should disqualify him from holding any current position at Stanford or SLAC. The credibility of the entire organization is at stake and it should be painfully obvious to all that his personal privilege is subordinated to that of the organization he leads.”
Amen.
I'm not as concerned as Bik is that a former DA is running the investigation, as long as they involve qualified independent scientists as well. This will be a complicated investigation and I think a DA has more relevant experience.
as long as the DA understands that the standard of academic integrity is very different from the standard a DA uses when considering whether a criminal case goes to trial. i would presume the typical DA would look at this at say, what's the fuss about?
RE: Tessier-Lavigne research under investigation for scientific misconduct - BostonCard - 12-09-2022
The PhD student isn't the only one calling for him to step aside during the investigation.
https://www.science.org/content/article/stanford-misconduct-probe-president-stumbles-new-journal-launches-inquiry?utm_medium=ownedSocial&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=NewsfromScience
Quote:The initial controversy triggered scrutiny of other papers Tessier-Lavigne co-authored and revealed additional problematic images. Image manipulation experts say at least some of the errors appear minor. Still, Tessier-Lavigne should step aside during the probe, one observer suggests. “The in-house investigation will have more credibility,” says Richard Smith, a former editor of The BMJ. “And his position as president is compromised when facing these serious accusations.”
I think the Science article linked above gives a pretty balanced view.
BC
RE: Tessier-Lavigne research under investigation for scientific misconduct - winflop - 12-10-2022
(12-09-2022, 05:13 PM)jonnyss Wrote:(12-07-2022, 08:29 PM)dabigv13 Wrote:Quote:“Based on the guide, had the research been conducted at SLAC I imagine we would already be processing MTL’s paperwork for dismissal for cause,” Chassin wrote. “The fact that his past research activities did not conform with Stanford’s standards at that time is the most relevant question in my mind, and these revelations should disqualify him from holding any current position at Stanford or SLAC. The credibility of the entire organization is at stake and it should be painfully obvious to all that his personal privilege is subordinated to that of the organization he leads.”
Amen.
I'm not as concerned as Bik is that a former DA is running the investigation, as long as they involve qualified independent scientists as well. This will be a complicated investigation and I think a DA has more relevant experience.
as long as the DA understands that the standard of academic integrity is very different from the standard a DA uses when considering whether a criminal case goes to trial. i would presume the typical DA would look at this at say, what's the fuss about?
Anyone with a law degree understands the difference between the standard for civil (preponderance of evidence) and criminal (reasonable doubt). I'm confident that someone who is a former DA has been given guidance from BOT as to what the evidentiary standard is for this investigation
RE: Tessier-Lavigne research under investigation for scientific misconduct - 81alum - 12-10-2022
(12-10-2022, 09:14 AM)winflop Wrote:When depriving someone of their liberty, the standard must be very high ("beyond.") When depriving someone of their property a little less so ("preponderance.") But when depriving someone of a highly paid, privileged position of largely symbolic leadership--failure to model the highest ethical standards should be enough for removal. For example, the fact that papers went out under his name which contained doctored images is on the face of it enough to remove him, full stop. Questions such as whether he was personally responsible for the manipulation of the images or whether he was aware of it would be relevant to a criminal proceeding or a lawsuit, but they are beside the point when judging his suitability to be in his position of leadership. Our standard for leadership is higher than "he was only sloppy with his proofreading of his colleague's contributions, not deliberately dishonest."(12-09-2022, 05:13 PM)jonnyss Wrote:(12-07-2022, 08:29 PM)dabigv13 Wrote:Quote:“Based on the guide, had the research been conducted at SLAC I imagine we would already be processing MTL’s paperwork for dismissal for cause,” Chassin wrote. “The fact that his past research activities did not conform with Stanford’s standards at that time is the most relevant question in my mind, and these revelations should disqualify him from holding any current position at Stanford or SLAC. The credibility of the entire organization is at stake and it should be painfully obvious to all that his personal privilege is subordinated to that of the organization he leads.”
Amen.
I'm not as concerned as Bik is that a former DA is running the investigation, as long as they involve qualified independent scientists as well. This will be a complicated investigation and I think a DA has more relevant experience.
as long as the DA understands that the standard of academic integrity is very different from the standard a DA uses when considering whether a criminal case goes to trial. i would presume the typical DA would look at this at say, what's the fuss about?
Anyone with a law degree understands the difference between the standard for civil (preponderance of evidence) and criminal (reasonable doubt). I'm confident that someone who is a former DA has been given guidance from BOT as to what the evidentiary standard is for this investigation
Furthermore, put this in the context of the crisis in scientific publications, in which as many as 50% of published results are turning out not to be reproduceable. Confidence in the whole scientific enterprise was being called into question before this scandal hit, and we needed Stanford and its leaders to actually lead the way to restoring that confidence. If the President of Stanford is allowed to remain in office after it turns out he has been part of the problem, it is a terrible message to science and universities far beyond Stanford University. It is as if to say that playing fast and loose with scientific pubs is just the nature of the game--absolutely everyone does it--and those who do it well get ahead.