Outside Topic 2023 Niners thread - Printable Version
+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Outside Topic 2023 Niners thread (/thread-24060.html)
+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Outside Topic 2023 Niners thread (/thread-24060.html)
RE: 2023 Niners thread - Mick - 08-27-2023
Supposedly Nick Bosa has a specific number in mind, and is not budging from that number. No negotiation. Here's the figure, meet it or I won't play. Makes me wonder if the Niners will franchise tag him in 2024. He might sit out the year, though I doubt it. He's under contract this year for $17.9 million.
Niners could franchise tag him, though they haven't franchise tagged a player since Robbie Gould in 2019. Eight players were franchise tagged last season. A team can franchise tag a player only three times, but because of the step-up rule, that third franchise tag gets very expensive.
The non-exclusive franchise tag value for defensive ends is $19.727 million for 2023, or 120% of the player's prior year salary, whichever is greater. So for Bosa, 2024 franchise tag calculates at $21.48 million.
This is a good explanation of exclusive franchise tags (there's only been four since 2012), non-exclusive franchise tags (much more common) and transition tags:
NFL franchise tags, explained: Updated position values, deadlines & rules to know for 2023 | Sporting News
RE: 2023 Niners thread - OutsiderFan - 08-27-2023
(08-27-2023, 11:05 AM)Mick Wrote: Supposedly Nick Bosa has a specific number in mind, and is not budging from that number. No negotiation. Here's the figure, meet it or I won't play. Makes me wonder if the Niners will franchise tag him in 2024. He might sit out the year, though I doubt it. He's under contract this year for $17.9 million.
Niners could franchise tag him, though they haven't franchise tagged a player since Robbie Gould in 2019. Eight players were franchise tagged last season. A team can franchise tag a player only three times, but because of the step-up rule, that third franchise tag gets very expensive.
The non-exclusive franchise tag value for defensive ends is $19.727 million for 2023, or 120% of the player's prior year salary, whichever is greater. So for Bosa, 2024 franchise tag calculates at $21.48 million.
This is a good explanation of exclusive franchise tags (there's only been four since 2012), non-exclusive franchise tags (much more common) and transition tags:
NFL franchise tags, explained: Updated position values, deadlines & rules to know for 2023 | Sporting News
Bosa is playing a dangerous game now. The Niners always take care of their players. Pushing to the maximum and past the line the Niners feel comfortable with will not be a good idea. He's at risk of making his team worse *by forcing Niners to cut player they want to keep), and costing himself money by asking for more than the Niners want to pay.
These types of "I won't negotiate" tactics can work both ways. Keep in mind, Bosa is under contract for this season. He won't get a year of service unless he reports. If he plays out his rookie deal this year he will be a free agent, but the Niners can franchise tag him then. So just by letting CBA rules play out, the Niners can save a lot of money by doing this.
They can tell his agent that if Bosa doesn't report by Tuesday, they will end extension talks, and make him play the final year of his contract to earn his year of service with threat to franchise tag him next year.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - Giants - 08-27-2023
(08-27-2023, 12:02 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(08-27-2023, 11:05 AM)Mick Wrote: Supposedly Nick Bosa has a specific number in mind, and is not budging from that number. No negotiation. Here's the figure, meet it or I won't play. Makes me wonder if the Niners will franchise tag him in 2024. He might sit out the year, though I doubt it. He's under contract this year for $17.9 million.
Niners could franchise tag him, though they haven't franchise tagged a player since Robbie Gould in 2019. Eight players were franchise tagged last season. A team can franchise tag a player only three times, but because of the step-up rule, that third franchise tag gets very expensive.
The non-exclusive franchise tag value for defensive ends is $19.727 million for 2023, or 120% of the player's prior year salary, whichever is greater. So for Bosa, 2024 franchise tag calculates at $21.48 million.
This is a good explanation of exclusive franchise tags (there's only been four since 2012), non-exclusive franchise tags (much more common) and transition tags:
NFL franchise tags, explained: Updated position values, deadlines & rules to know for 2023 | Sporting News
Bosa is playing a dangerous game now. The Niners always take care of their players. Pushing to the maximum and past the line the Niners feel comfortable with will not be a good idea. He's at risk of making his team worse *by forcing Niners to cut player they want to keep), and costing himself money by asking for more than the Niners want to pay.
These types of "I won't negotiate" tactics can work both ways. Keep in mind, Bosa is under contract for this season. He won't get a year of service unless he reports. If he plays out his rookie deal this year he will be a free agent, but the Niners can franchise tag him then. So just by letting CBA rules play out, the Niners can save a lot of money by doing this.
They can tell his agent that if Bosa doesn't report by Tuesday, they will end extension talks, and make him play the final year of his contract to earn his year of service with threat to franchise tag him next year.
I believe players have to report by Week 8 in order to receive service credit for the entire season. Therefore, playing hardball v. Bosa could result in his absence for seven games (while he still receives a credit for seventeen games by reporting in Week 8) AND be eligible for the franchise tag in 2024.
Having said that, both Bosa and the 49ers are smart enough to know that negotiating is the only way to resolve the matter. I believe the issue will be worked out before Week 1.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - OutsiderFan - 08-29-2023
Very interesting initial 53 man roster for Niners.
- No interior OL cut today is better than Nick Zakelj? That guy stunk from what I saw in preseason.
- Both rookie LBs made the team in Dee Winters and Jalen Graham.
- Nick Bosa not on initial 53, and Ronald Beal - who I don't remember doing anything preseason - is.
- What a draft class!
#3 S Jay'ir Brown
#3 K Jake Moody
#3 TE Cameron Latu (injured reserve and out for season)
#5 Darrel Luter Jr. (PUP - eligible to play after 4 games)
#5 DE Ronald Beal
#6 LB Dee Winters
#7 TE Brayden Willis
#7 WR Ronnie Bell
#7 LB Jaylen Graham
They kept every single pick they made!
It is RARE for this many drafted players to make even lousy teams. It is unheard of for this many to make a Super Bowl contending team.
Brown, Winters, and Bell really impressed me in preseason.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - Mick - 08-29-2023
I wonder if the Niners would consider trading Bosa. Maybe to Tampa Bay for Tristan Wirfs (All Pro OT and young), DT Vita Vea and a first round selection. The 49ers' OL is super thin. Maybe Quenton Nelson and DeForest Buckner back from the Colts.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - cardcrimson - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 09:25 PM)Mick Wrote: I wonder if the Niners would consider trading Bosa. Maybe to Tampa Bay for Tristan Wirfs (All Pro OT and young), DT Vita Vea and a first round selection. The 49ers' OL is super thin. Maybe Quenton Nelson and DeForest Buckner back from the Colts.Agree with you. The second level is pretty mediocre. If only they had an early round draft pick the last couple of years to build on the OL. Just ask Andrew Luck how important an O line is. . ..
RE: 2023 Niners thread - Giants - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 09:25 PM)Mick Wrote: I wonder if the Niners would consider trading Bosa. Maybe to Tampa Bay for Tristan Wirfs (All Pro OT and young), DT Vita Vea and a first round selection. The 49ers' OL is super thin. Maybe Quenton Nelson and DeForest Buckner back from the Colts.
No way. I expect a contract agreement before Sept. 10th…..
RE: 2023 Niners thread - skip75 - 08-29-2023
[/quote]
Just ask Andrew Luck how important an O line is. . ..
[/quote]
Or Jim Plunkett
RE: 2023 Niners thread - Mick - 08-29-2023
Just ask Andrew Luck how important an O line is. . ..
[/quote]
Or Jim Plunkett
[/quote]
Or Steve Young...
RE: 2023 Niners thread - Maple Leaf - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 09:38 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:or the last two Stanford starting QBs who are now Houston and Philly, or Trent Edwards.(08-29-2023, 09:25 PM)Mick Wrote: I wonder if the Niners would consider trading Bosa. Maybe to Tampa Bay for Tristan Wirfs (All Pro OT and young), DT Vita Vea and a first round selection. The 49ers' OL is super thin. Maybe Quenton Nelson and DeForest Buckner back from the Colts.Agree with you. The second level is pretty mediocre. If only they had an early round draft pick the last couple of years to build on the OL. Just ask Andrew Luck how important an O line is. . ..
RE: 2023 Niners thread - lex24 - 08-31-2023
(08-29-2023, 09:59 PM)Giants Wrote:(08-29-2023, 09:25 PM)Mick Wrote: I wonder if the Niners would consider trading Bosa. Maybe to Tampa Bay for Tristan Wirfs (All Pro OT and young), DT Vita Vea and a first round selection. The 49ers' OL is super thin. Maybe Quenton Nelson and DeForest Buckner back from the Colts.
No way. I expect a contract agreement before Sept. 10th…..
Agree. They ain’t trading Bosa.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - Mick - 09-01-2023
(08-31-2023, 06:45 AM)lex24 Wrote:(08-29-2023, 09:59 PM)Giants Wrote:(08-29-2023, 09:25 PM)Mick Wrote: I wonder if the Niners would consider trading Bosa. Maybe to Tampa Bay for Tristan Wirfs (All Pro OT and young), DT Vita Vea and a first round selection. The 49ers' OL is super thin. Maybe Quenton Nelson and DeForest Buckner back from the Colts.
No way. I expect a contract agreement before Sept. 10th…..
Agree. They ain’t trading Bosa.
Sources now say they should deliver a signed Bosa contract within 48 hours.
Niners picked up a kicker, Matthew Wright, who was 40 of 46 from FG range since 2020 for Carolina.
49ers sign backup kicker, still working on Nick Bosa deal
Lynchahan haters won't like this, but ESPN analyst Orlovsky says Trey Lance's failure was more Trey Lance than the 49ers.
https://www.49erswebzone.com/articles/171419-orlovsky-trey-lance-more-blame-shanahan-struggles-49ers/
RE: 2023 Niners thread - lex24 - 09-03-2023
Niners better sign Bosa soon. If they don’t, between that and Lance it won’t bode well for the front office.
Hindsight is 20-20. But there are parallels imo between Niners picking Lance and Warriors picking Wiseman. Both teams are in win now mode. Both Lance and Wiseman were raw talents. Young not only in years, but in experience. Patience required. But patience is better served when playing on a non-contender. Neither fit particularly well in the scheme that the team employed. Especially Lance, whose skill set was not generally what Shanahan looks for. Both had injury issues that curbed their development.
It’s not beyond the realm of possibility that both will “find it” and have good careers. Especially Wiseman who will get significant minutes on a lousy team. With Lance, it’s maybe a couple years away. Dallas can be more patient. They didn’t trade a bunch of first rounders to get him….
RE: 2023 Niners thread - OutsiderFan - 09-03-2023
The Bosa situation is all about who wants what more.
Do the Niners want Bosa to play against Pittsburgh more than Bosa wants to play and help his team win the game?
If I were the Niners, I would tell Nick Bosa if he doesn't sign by Tuesday (so he can practice Wednesday), this is our best offer, and it will start going down after this. And it should because rumors are he will eclipse Aaron Donald's AAV. So let's say the Niners are willing to go $32M per season. That's $1.88M per game. So tell him, for each Tuesday you aren't signed, we deduct $1.88M from our offer.
If he doesn't report to play this season, he doesn't get a year of service, and he still has to play a year to earn free agency.
Bosa could counter by saying he will report by the day he must to play enough games that earn him free agency because he can't be franchise tagged. What would Bosa earn on the open market? It's certainly an interesting question, and the Niners could just wait to sign him as a free agent too.
I don't see Bosa wanting to miss that many games. But I also know the Niners have a staggering payroll next year, and not having Bosa's $32M would really help. Maybe their window closes this year because of that giant payroll and they start trading players for draft picks. I don't know what they are thinking, but they have a lot of talent that could command a ton of draft capital.
Anyway, I'm guessing the deal gets done and Bosa plays next week because both parties want that. I believe whole heartedly that Bosa's agent is feeding stories to media threatening he might miss week 1 in hopes of fans pressuring Niners to get it done. But the Niners can't set precedents to fall for these kinds of stunts. That's why I think the best course is for Niners to tell Bosa's agent sign by Tuesday or you lose $1.88M (or whatever the 17 week average of their final offer is). I think Nick wants to play more than the Niners want him for week 1, and he will sign so he doesn't miss opener.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - Giants - 09-03-2023
(09-03-2023, 12:18 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: The Bosa situation is all about who wants what more.
Do the Niners want Bosa to play against Pittsburgh more than Bosa wants to play and help his team win the game?
If I were the Niners, I would tell Nick Bosa if he doesn't sign by Tuesday (so he can practice Wednesday), this is our best offer, and it will start going down after this. And it should because rumors are he will eclipse Aaron Donald's AAV. So let's say the Niners are willing to go $32M per season. That's $1.88M per game. So tell him, for each Tuesday you aren't signed, we deduct $1.88M from our offer.
If he doesn't report to play this season, he doesn't get a year of service, and he still has to play a year to earn free agency.
Bosa could counter by saying he will report by the day he must to play enough games that earn him free agency because he can't be franchise tagged. What would Bosa earn on the open market? It's certainly an interesting question, and the Niners could just wait to sign him as a free agent too.
I don't see Bosa wanting to miss that many games. But I also know the Niners have a staggering payroll next year, and not having Bosa's $32M would really help. Maybe their window closes this year because of that giant payroll and they start trading players for draft picks. I don't know what they are thinking, but they have a lot of talent that could command a ton of draft capital.
Anyway, I'm guessing the deal gets done and Bosa plays next week because both parties want that. I believe whole heartedly that Bosa's agent is feeding stories to media threatening he might miss week 1 in hopes of fans pressuring Niners to get it done. But the Niners can't set precedents to fall for these kinds of stunts. That's why I think the best course is for Niners to tell Bosa's agent sign by Tuesday or you lose $1.88M (or whatever the 17 week average of their final offer is). I think Nick wants to play more than the Niners want him for week 1, and he will sign so he doesn't miss opener.
If I were the Niners, I would simply continue to work through the process of trying to reach a deal that works for both parties. Issuing ultimatums never works in complex negotiations. It isn’t about who wants what more, it is about attempting to come to an agreement that benefits everyone involved.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - OutsiderFan - 09-03-2023
(09-03-2023, 02:44 PM)Giants Wrote:(09-03-2023, 12:18 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: The Bosa situation is all about who wants what more.
Do the Niners want Bosa to play against Pittsburgh more than Bosa wants to play and help his team win the game?
If I were the Niners, I would tell Nick Bosa if he doesn't sign by Tuesday (so he can practice Wednesday), this is our best offer, and it will start going down after this. And it should because rumors are he will eclipse Aaron Donald's AAV. So let's say the Niners are willing to go $32M per season. That's $1.88M per game. So tell him, for each Tuesday you aren't signed, we deduct $1.88M from our offer.
If he doesn't report to play this season, he doesn't get a year of service, and he still has to play a year to earn free agency.
Bosa could counter by saying he will report by the day he must to play enough games that earn him free agency because he can't be franchise tagged. What would Bosa earn on the open market? It's certainly an interesting question, and the Niners could just wait to sign him as a free agent too.
I don't see Bosa wanting to miss that many games. But I also know the Niners have a staggering payroll next year, and not having Bosa's $32M would really help. Maybe their window closes this year because of that giant payroll and they start trading players for draft picks. I don't know what they are thinking, but they have a lot of talent that could command a ton of draft capital.
Anyway, I'm guessing the deal gets done and Bosa plays next week because both parties want that. I believe whole heartedly that Bosa's agent is feeding stories to media threatening he might miss week 1 in hopes of fans pressuring Niners to get it done. But the Niners can't set precedents to fall for these kinds of stunts. That's why I think the best course is for Niners to tell Bosa's agent sign by Tuesday or you lose $1.88M (or whatever the 17 week average of their final offer is). I think Nick wants to play more than the Niners want him for week 1, and he will sign so he doesn't miss opener.
If I were the Niners, I would simply continue to work through the process of trying to reach a deal that works for both parties. Issuing ultimatums never works in complex negotiations. It isn’t about who wants what more, it is about attempting to come to an agreement that benefits everyone involved.
I've seen reports that Bosa's agent wasn't negotiating. Just threw out a number and said meet it or we aren't signing. They may be now, but that stance wasted a lot of time. Bosa is pushing the envelope further than the Niners want to or should.
The Niners must push back.
Compelling events get deals done, and Week 1 is that event.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - Giants - 09-03-2023
(09-03-2023, 03:29 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(09-03-2023, 02:44 PM)Giants Wrote:(09-03-2023, 12:18 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: The Bosa situation is all about who wants what more.
Do the Niners want Bosa to play against Pittsburgh more than Bosa wants to play and help his team win the game?
If I were the Niners, I would tell Nick Bosa if he doesn't sign by Tuesday (so he can practice Wednesday), this is our best offer, and it will start going down after this. And it should because rumors are he will eclipse Aaron Donald's AAV. So let's say the Niners are willing to go $32M per season. That's $1.88M per game. So tell him, for each Tuesday you aren't signed, we deduct $1.88M from our offer.
If he doesn't report to play this season, he doesn't get a year of service, and he still has to play a year to earn free agency.
Bosa could counter by saying he will report by the day he must to play enough games that earn him free agency because he can't be franchise tagged. What would Bosa earn on the open market? It's certainly an interesting question, and the Niners could just wait to sign him as a free agent too.
I don't see Bosa wanting to miss that many games. But I also know the Niners have a staggering payroll next year, and not having Bosa's $32M would really help. Maybe their window closes this year because of that giant payroll and they start trading players for draft picks. I don't know what they are thinking, but they have a lot of talent that could command a ton of draft capital.
Anyway, I'm guessing the deal gets done and Bosa plays next week because both parties want that. I believe whole heartedly that Bosa's agent is feeding stories to media threatening he might miss week 1 in hopes of fans pressuring Niners to get it done. But the Niners can't set precedents to fall for these kinds of stunts. That's why I think the best course is for Niners to tell Bosa's agent sign by Tuesday or you lose $1.88M (or whatever the 17 week average of their final offer is). I think Nick wants to play more than the Niners want him for week 1, and he will sign so he doesn't miss opener.
If I were the Niners, I would simply continue to work through the process of trying to reach a deal that works for both parties. Issuing ultimatums never works in complex negotiations. It isn’t about who wants what more, it is about attempting to come to an agreement that benefits everyone involved.
I've seen reports that Bosa's agent wasn't negotiating. Just threw out a number and said meet it or we aren't signing. They may be now, but that stance wasted a lot of time. Bosa is pushing the envelope further than the Niners want to or should.
The Niners must push back.
Compelling events get deals done, and Week 1 is that event.
Having negotiated complex issues with labor for more years than I care to remember, I know two immutable facts - never get emotional about the process and ulterior motives govern what information is made public.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - Mick - 09-03-2023
(09-03-2023, 12:18 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: The Bosa situation is all about who wants what more.
Do the Niners want Bosa to play against Pittsburgh more than Bosa wants to play and help his team win the game?
If I were the Niners, I would tell Nick Bosa if he doesn't sign by Tuesday (so he can practice Wednesday), this is our best offer, and it will start going down after this. And it should because rumors are he will eclipse Aaron Donald's AAV. So let's say the Niners are willing to go $32M per season. That's $1.88M per game. So tell him, for each Tuesday you aren't signed, we deduct $1.88M from our offer.
If he doesn't report to play this season, he doesn't get a year of service, and he still has to play a year to earn free agency.
Bosa could counter by saying he will report by the day he must to play enough games that earn him free agency because he can't be franchise tagged. What would Bosa earn on the open market? It's certainly an interesting question, and the Niners could just wait to sign him as a free agent too.
I'm confused by that statement. Are you saying free agents can't be franchise tagged? I thought that was the whole purpose of franchise tagging...preventing the single free agent that's most important to the team from leaving.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - OutsiderFan - 09-03-2023
(09-03-2023, 04:04 PM)Mick Wrote: I'm confused by that statement. Are you saying free agents can't be franchise tagged? I thought that was the whole purpose of franchise tagging...preventing the single free agent that's most important to the team from leaving.
If a player's 5th year option - only available to first round picks - is picked up, the franchise tag cannot be used on that player. In effect, a team already used its franchise tag in a certain sense to get the 5th year at a discounted rate when they use the 5th year option, so they don't get to use another pay restricting tactic again.
There was nothing preventing the Niners from extending Bosa last offseason at a a lower price, but they didn't. They waited until he won DPOY and had even more value.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - cardcrimson - 09-03-2023
I believe Joey Bosa had the same agent a couple years back. They took the same tact, and put out a number and wouldn't budge. The agent was removed and replaced by someone else in the agency and a deal quickly signed. Will it happen again?