WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - Printable Version
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RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - liveoak - 12-04-2025
(12-04-2025, 09:52 PM)BostonCard Wrote:PVTree dateline='[url=tel:1764906584' Wrote: 1764906584[/url]']
What a quandary... What to believe, the box score or my lying eyes sitting in the third row in front of the Stanford bench? Tough to decide although I'm leaning towards my eyes. ;^)
You made me look. The game is available on YouTube: https://youtu.be/cYe6JNASe3o
The play with 6 seconds to go starts at the 1:10:48 mark.
#22 Stevenson is the inbounder. The ball goes to #3 Agara. #12 Somfai is on the low block. #13 Clardy is in the far corner. The hardest one to make out, because her hair is obscuring her number, but if you look as she runs the baseline to the near side corner, you get #2, Swain. No Lepolo in at the 6 second mark.
Box Score 1, PVMonster 0.
BC
I should add though, that for the very last shot, with 0.5 seconds left (1:11:54 on the video), it looks like #10 Lepolo was on the court at the top of the key, but was not the shooter, so perhaps that is what you saw.
BC
Yes, Lepolo only came on for the last .5 seconds
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - liveoak - 12-05-2025
(12-04-2025, 07:50 AM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote: A game of pluses and minuses last night (I was only able to watch the 2nd half):
I agree with one of the previous posts that Tennessee looked like a pretty dreadful basketball team in this one, but they won the game on strength, physicality and athleticism. They might have had one of the worst shooting games by a "quality" team I've seen. Did they make a single shot between the rim and the 3-point line? Air balls on wide open corner-3s, bricks from the FT line. It was ugly. And I'm not even dragging them, I think their coaches know they are a poor shooting team, they had a game plan, and they executed it and deserved to win the game, imo. It's a game plan that usually works well against Stanford, no matter what our personnel is.
No team should be able to win after turning it over 30+ times in 40 minutes, and yet we had a shot to tie/win in the final 10 seconds. That's kind of mind-boggling. The saving grace there was that a lot of those turnovers ended up being balls out of bounds, and so Tennessee's points off turnovers weren't totally crazy, despite the raw total of turnovers. I thought in the 2nd half we were mostly "breaking" the press fine, i.e. getting it over half-court with the defender at our back, but then Hailee or Chloe would get near the 3-point line or the top of the key and be going downhill so fast that they couldn't make a decent play, so we had some charges and balls bouncing out of bounds off of our feet. The press kept us out of rhythm, but I'm not sure getting into our half-court offense and running sets would have been a boon to our team anyway. When we held onto the ball, we generally found good shots early in the clock. Hailee, Nunu, Lara and Chloe all looked capable of scoring against them in the 2nd half.
The Stanford D was good, though aided by their terrible shooting. Nunu and Lara mostly held up against their front line and we produced some steals in the half-court by collapsing on them when they had a foot in the paint.
The coaches may be reading this Board, because they found the best 5-person lineup and ran with it for most of the 2nd half: Chloe, Hailee, Courtney, Lara & Nunu. I think we should continue to note - with all the talk about Alex on this Board - that KP & the coaches are relying on Lara and Hailee as every-down backs on this team, and that's not something we saw much from Tara with any freshmen in the last 10 years (besides Haley Jones). They mostly abandoned Lepolo, despite all the turnovers, because it was obvious that she wasn't quick enough to beat their guards up the floor with the ball. Even though Chloe and Hailee were losing the ball a lot, they were at least capable of getting the ball past the Vols' players, and/or seeing over the D if they had to pick up their dribble. That 5-person lineup looked good to me - capable of playing with a team this physical, and skilled enough to beat them. We just need Hailee & Lara to slow down the game a bit and the pieces will start to come together more.
I would have loved to see Amborn get a few minutes and just position in her in the corner in front of our bench. Lara and Nunu were generally standing there when Chloe or Hailee were carrying the ball into the front-court, and while they are capable of making a corner-3, Amborn could be a real weapon there. And I think they could have gotten away with hiding Amborn on the defensive side because Tennessee really couldn't hit a shot.
I thought the team showed a lot of fight in the face of adversity and it was encouraging how Hailee and Lara played in this one. Ogden is really showing herself to be an improved players this year, too. They're not a top-16 caliber team and they're not going to be this year, imo, so I think we have to be patient with the ups and downs of this bunch.
I think this is a very good analysis...and I would add the following:
- If we had there or four less turnovers, we would have won this game
- When talking about Tennessee playing their freshmen more, they also have four transfers...so they have to play the frosh
- Clardy and Swain had 13 turnovers between them, despite the comments about Lepolo
- Eschmeyer played well in the first half, but got two quick fouls in the second half and sat...I think the game was a little fast for her and she will be used to better advantage in other games
- Several people on this board have wanted more playing time for Eschmeyer. Since she's a post, that means that she replaces Somfai or Agara in the starting lineup - who sits for her?
- MAS is the replacement forward for the 3, 4, or 5 - not a starter
- The team we saw on the floor at the end is our best team - when the game slows down for Eschmeyer, she will join that group.
I would differ in one aspect - IMO this game was way too quick for Amborn. I think she will be a good player, but needs time to adjust to game like this.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - OCcardinal - 12-05-2025
(12-04-2025, 10:38 AM)Card10Fan Wrote: Coach Paye is 0-8 against ranked teams as a head coach. Stanford has not beat a ranked opponent since Cam Brinks senior season and Tara’s last year on the bench.Stanford WBB beat Florida State last year. They may not have been ranked when we beat them, but finished ranked 22nd. And Stanford's victory over Georgia Tech was another high quality win. They weren't ranked when we beat them either but had been ranked as high as 13th for several weeks. Granted, Stanford used to be among the country's best in top 25 wins. We obviously aren't there currently, but Paye's first season did include quality wins. I expect more this season.
(12-05-2025, 12:29 AM)liveoak Wrote: - Several people on this board have wanted more playing time for Eschmeyer. Since she's a post, that means that she replaces Somfai or Agara in the starting lineup - who sits for her?Paye played Eschmeyer, Somfai and Agara all at the same time earlier this season and they looked completely dominant together. I'd like to see that lineup again sometime. Not necessarily as the starting lineup, but it's an option in the right circumstances.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - stopandpop - 12-05-2025
(12-05-2025, 01:09 PM)OCcardinal Wrote:(12-04-2025, 10:38 AM)Card10Fan Wrote: Coach Paye is 0-8 against ranked teams as a head coach. Stanford has not beat a ranked opponent since Cam Brinks senior season and Tara’s last year on the bench.Stanford WBB beat Florida State last year. They may not have been ranked when we beat them, but finished ranked 22nd. And Stanford's victory over Georgia Tech was another high quality win. They weren't ranked when we beat them either but had been ranked as high as 13th for several weeks. Granted, Stanford used to be among the country's best in top 25 wins. We obviously aren't there currently, but Paye's first season did include quality wins. I expect more this season.
(12-05-2025, 12:29 AM)liveoak Wrote: - Several people on this board have wanted more playing time for Eschmeyer. Since she's a post, that means that she replaces Somfai or Agara in the starting lineup - who sits for her?Paye played Eschmeyer, Somfai and Agara all at the same time earlier this season and they looked completely dominant together. I'd like to see that lineup again sometime. Not necessarily as the starting lineup, but it's an option in the right circumstances.
There will be opportunities for that lineup during the season, and I would like to see Coach Paye taking advantage of those opportunities to grow the team.
Dthom655@yahoo.com - Deejaatee - 12-05-2025
liveoak dateline='[url=tel:1764919786' Wrote: 1764919786[/url]']
AndyCardinal03 dateline='[url=tel:1764859810' Wrote: 1764859810[/url]']
A game of pluses and minuses last night (I was only able to watch the 2nd half):
I agree with one of the previous posts that Tennessee looked like a pretty dreadful basketball team in this one, but they won the game on strength, physicality and athleticism. They might have had one of the worst shooting games by a "quality" team I've seen. Did they make a single shot between the rim and the 3-point line? Air balls on wide open corner-3s, bricks from the FT line. It was ugly. And I'm not even dragging them, I think their coaches know they are a poor shooting team, they had a game plan, and they executed it and deserved to win the game, imo. It's a game plan that usually works well against Stanford, no matter what our personnel is.
No team should be able to win after turning it over 30+ times in 40 minutes, and yet we had a shot to tie/win in the final 10 seconds. That's kind of mind-boggling. The saving grace there was that a lot of those turnovers ended up being balls out of bounds, and so Tennessee's points off turnovers weren't totally crazy, despite the raw total of turnovers. I thought in the 2nd half we were mostly "breaking" the press fine, i.e. getting it over half-court with the defender at our back, but then Hailee or Chloe would get near the 3-point line or the top of the key and be going downhill so fast that they couldn't make a decent play, so we had some charges and balls bouncing out of bounds off of our feet. The press kept us out of rhythm, but I'm not sure getting into our half-court offense and running sets would have been a boon to our team anyway. When we held onto the ball, we generally found good shots early in the clock. Hailee, Nunu, Lara and Chloe all looked capable of scoring against them in the 2nd half.
The Stanford D was good, though aided by their terrible shooting. Nunu and Lara mostly held up against their front line and we produced some steals in the half-court by collapsing on them when they had a foot in the paint.
The coaches may be reading this Board, because they found the best 5-person lineup and ran with it for most of the 2nd half: Chloe, Hailee, Courtney, Lara & Nunu. I think we should continue to note - with all the talk about Alex on this Board - that KP & the coaches are relying on Lara and Hailee as every-down backs on this team, and that's not something we saw much from Tara with any freshmen in the last 10 years (besides Haley Jones). They mostly abandoned Lepolo, despite all the turnovers, because it was obvious that she wasn't quick enough to beat their guards up the floor with the ball. Even though Chloe and Hailee were losing the ball a lot, they were at least capable of getting the ball past the Vols' players, and/or seeing over the D if they had to pick up their dribble. That 5-person lineup looked good to me - capable of playing with a team this physical, and skilled enough to beat them. We just need Hailee & Lara to slow down the game a bit and the pieces will start to come together more.
I would have loved to see Amborn get a few minutes and just position in her in the corner in front of our bench. Lara and Nunu were generally standing there when Chloe or Hailee were carrying the ball into the front-court, and while they are capable of making a corner-3, Amborn could be a real weapon there. And I think they could have gotten away with hiding Amborn on the defensive side because Tennessee really couldn't hit a shot.
I thought the team showed a lot of fight in the face of adversity and it was encouraging how Hailee and Lara played in this one. Ogden is really showing herself to be an improved players this year, too. They're not a top-16 caliber team and they're not going to be this year, imo, so I think we have to be patient with the ups and downs of this bunch.
I think this is a very good analysis...and I would add the following:
- If we had there or four less turnovers, we would have won this game
- When talking about Tennessee playing their freshmen more, they also have four transfers...so they have to play the frosh
- Clardy and Swain had 13 turnovers between them, despite the comments about Lepolo
- Eschmeyer played well in the first half, but got two quick fouls in the second half and sat...I think the game was a little fast for her and she will be used to better advantage in other games
- Several people on this board have wanted more playing time for Eschmeyer. Since she's a post, that means that she replaces Somfai or Agara in the starting lineup - who sits for her?
- MAS is the replacement forward for the 3, 4, or 5 - not a starter
- The team we saw on the floor at the end is our best team - when the game slows down for Eschmeyer, she will join that group.
I would differ in one aspect - IMO this game was way too quick for Amborn. I think she will be a good player, but needs time to adjust to game like this.
I think these observations are excellent.
Here are some additional thoughts.
- I am good with this loss. This is the proverbial game that has lessons galore to learn from. Very few other teams play this type of all game full court press.
-
- Lessons for the guards: Yes, that is what it looks like to play fast. In the beginning, it took a while for Lepolo and Swain to understand just how fast things were going. You can't simulate that speed and aggression in practice. You have to experience it in the game. You can't walk the ball up the court and be successful. And you can't stop at the top of the key and then start your offense. Not against this type of pressure. As the game went on, all of the guards realized this and changed accordingly.
-
- Lesson for Swain: In the early part of the game she was still going to the basket with no real purpose and just throwing the ball up, hoping she would get fouled. Didn't happen. After coming out and watching her peer freshmen at Tennessee play with purpose, she came back in and put together a nice game where she began moving to the basket with purpose and finishing. This game will help her in the future
-
- Lesson for Ogden: It was clear just how important she has become at the end of the game. With her not on the court because she fouled out, KP had to go with MAS and Lepolo. The lesson for her is two-fold. First, she needs to continue to be aggressive on offense where she is one of the best pure shooters on the team. This is what she brought with her as a top 10 recruit, we are just now seeing it. And second, pay atttention to the refs. Most of her fouls were not really fouls on her, but she was playing tight enough defense to allow the offensive player to lean into her, and get the foul call. She needs to still be aggressive on defense but move her feet more.
-
- Lesson for Agara: Start playing hard earlier. She seems like she lets her teammates drive the play early in the game. She is the leader, she needs to play with more focused intensity earlier. And not just try to bully her way to the basket. Opponents know that is her style now. She needs to work on her other moves including her mid-range shot.
-
- Lessons for Somfai: That's what it's like to be pushed around in the big leagues. In the beginning she was not playing as physical as her defenders. As the game went on, she began to understand and use her size to her advantage. And I loved her movement on the questionable play when she hit the girl in the head. Back when I played, that was the price for getting into my space. You got an elbow in the mouth.
-
- Lesson for Eschmeyer: You have the fundamentals down for being a good post player, now she needs the strength. Too often she got her hands on the rebound but was unable to hold onto it through the chaos. That's the speed of the game and her current lack of strength. She will learn.
-
- Lesson for the rest of team re: playing with Eschmeyer.: Learn how to pass the ball into the post. Several times Eschmeyer ran down the court, got herself setup, and had her defender on her back. But her team mates didn't past the ball. This is not a case of the wrong offense, it's one of players not thinking and reacting fast enough. And overthinking things and trying to run the play as called. I look forward to the coaches working with the other players and helping them understand how to recognize and react when they see Eschmeyer shouting for the ball with her hands in the air. PASS THE BALL.
- Lessons for KP: Use the bench. You knew going in that Tennessee was going to be running hockey style lines all game long. You knew they were going to be running full court presses all game long. You knew your players were going to give it their all all game long. So, they were going to be tired come the end of the game. Don't shorten the bench in this situation. Lengthen it. Especially in the first half. She should have used Eschmeyer and Ojiwoye, and Amborn some. Even if just to give the others a blow.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - BillBradley - 12-05-2025
(12-05-2025, 12:29 AM)liveoak Wrote: - Several people on this board have wanted more playing time for Eschmeyer. Since she's a post, that means that she replaces Somfai or Agara in the starting lineup - who sits for her?Agree that's our best lineup. Hope we see it more and more over time. Against ACC competition, I'd like the 200 minutes to be spread something like:
- MAS is the replacement forward for the 3, 4, or 5 - not a starter
- The team we saw on the floor at the end is our best team - when the game slows down for Eschmeyer, she will join that group.
Nunu - 36
Chloe - 34
Swain - 32
Ogden - 28
Somfai - 28
Alex - 22
Lepolo - 10
MAS - 10
Small correction - MAS never plays the 3, she doesn't have that skillset. Sometimes Nunu moves to the three if we have MAS, Nunu, and another post in the game. Maybe MAS ends up on the perimeter at times to get Nunu a post up, but that should be very infrequent when she's on the court.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - BostonCard - 12-05-2025
FYI, here is the current minute distribution (average per game), with the difference from your target in parentheses:
Agara: 30.5 (-5.5)
Clardy: 30.4 (-3.6)
Lepolo: 27.9 (17.9)
Swain: 24.7 (- 7.3)
Somfai: 21.9 (-6.1)
Ogden: 20.9 (-7.1)
MAS: 17.3 (7.3)
Eschmeyer: 12.3 (-9.7)
Everyone else combined: 14.4 (+14.4)
A few comments. I think your target for Agara is too high. Forgetting the possibility of foul trouble, it was clear that the team was tired for the last few possessions. Agara played 39 minutes against Tennessee, and I think that was too much. In 23/24, Iriafen played 27 mpg and Brink played 25, partly limited by foul trouble. I think the low 30’s is probably optimum for Agara and Clardy.
You clearly believe that Lepolo should play much less. If Tennessee is any indication, that looks like the trend (17 minutes despite being a starter) is in that direction. I’m somewhere in between where you are and what she is currently getting. In a team where two starters are freshmen, having some senior leadership on the floor helps. Plus she is currently one of our best outside shooters. She is second only to Clardy in number of made 3’s, and second only to Amborn (who only has six attempts) in 3 pt shooting percentage. I disagree that Somfai should get more minutes. She is a freshman, and though her ceiling is high, she is already getting more minutes than Cameron Brink did as a sophomore. It takes time to get up to speed and to be effective, and there is a tendency to project a player’s potential onto their contribution.
On the other hand, Ogden is a veteran and has stepped up her game. I hope to slowly see her pick up more minutes, and somewhere in the mid-20’s sounds reasonable. As the year progresses, I hope that Eschmeyer will step up her game enough so that hers and MAS’ minutes are flipped (basically 5 more mpg for Eschmeyer, and 5 less for MAS), but I don’t think potential alone or fear of transfer is enough. There are some things she needs to work on.
Lastly, there’s no scope in your roster for the tail end of the bench. I’m not expecting them (which, BTW, includes Amborne) to get more than 10 minutes per game combined, but I hope we aren’t shortening our lineup to only 8 players.
BC
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - BillBradley - 12-06-2025
(12-05-2025, 04:56 PM)BostonCard Wrote: FYI, here is the current minute distribution (average per game), with the difference from your target in parentheses:Nice reply. Couple more thoughts:
Agara: 30.5 (-5.5)
Clardy: 30.4 (-3.6)
Lepolo: 27.9 (17.9)
Swain: 24.7 (- 7.3)
Somfai: 21.9 (-6.1)
Ogden: 20.9 (-7.1)
MAS: 17.3 (7.3)
Eschmeyer: 12.3 (-9.7)
Everyone else combined: 14.4 (+14.4)
A few comments. I think your target for Agara is too high. Forgetting the possibility of foul trouble, it was clear that the team was tired for the last few possessions. Agara played 39 minutes against Tennessee, and I think that was too much. In 23/24, Iriafen played 27 mpg and Brink played 25, partly limited by foul trouble. I think the low 30’s is probably optimum for Agara and Clardy.
You clearly believe that Lepolo should play much less. If Tennessee is any indication, that looks like the trend (17 minutes despite being a starter) is in that direction. I’m somewhere in between where you are and what she is currently getting. In a team where two starters are freshmen, having some senior leadership on the floor helps. Plus she is currently one of our best outside shooters. She is second only to Clardy in number of made 3’s, and second only to Amborn (who only has six attempts) in 3 pt shooting percentage. I disagree that Somfai should get more minutes. She is a freshman, and though her ceiling is high, she is already getting more minutes than Cameron Brink did as a sophomore. It takes time to get up to speed and to be effective, and there is a tendency to project a player’s potential onto their contribution.
On the other hand, Ogden is a veteran and has stepped up her game. I hope to slowly see her pick up more minutes, and somewhere in the mid-20’s sounds reasonable. As the year progresses, I hope that Eschmeyer will step up her game enough so that hers and MAS’ minutes are flipped (basically 5 more mpg for Eschmeyer, and 5 less for MAS), but I don’t think potential alone or fear of transfer is enough. There are some things she needs to work on.
Lastly, there’s no scope in your roster for the tail end of the bench. I’m not expecting them (which, BTW, includes Amborne) to get more than 10 minutes per game combined, but I hope we aren’t shortening our lineup to only 8 players.
BC
- I should have noted that these are my preferred minutes distribution in competitive games where the tail end of the bench won't play. For sure, they'll get on the court in blowouts.
- Amborn might find her way into this rotation. I just don't know enough yet to state an opinion. Seems like another shooter could really help.
- Many teams rarely sub for a top player. Nunu is our best player and she needs to stay on the court (in competitive games) every minute that she can. I think 36 minutes is totally doable, especially in games with a lot of whistles (and all the TV timeouts, quarter breaks, regular timeouts, halftime, etc. ). Tons of top players play that much for other teams. Agree that there might be games that are up and down with few whistles, and she could get winded.
- Re: Lepolo, I definitely agree with the points you make about senior leadership and shooting percentage. She does bring those things to the table. But there are always tradeoffs in putting in one player for another. Much of my opinion about Lepolo (and MAS) is based on our overall team strengths and weaknesses. IMO, we are a Top-20 defensive team, but we just don't have enough offensive output to win games against good teams using the lineups we are playing right now. Sure, we can score 98 against the Lehighs of the world so our average looks decent, but here's how much we've scored in our toughest games:
WSU - 54
Gonzaga - 65
FGCU - 62
CSU - 62
Tenn - 62
Regardless of pace of play and the possession count, that just doesn't get it done against better teams. Therefore, I conclude that we should make an adjustment. Instead of playing our least productive offensive players 45 minutes/game (Lepolo and MAS), take a bunch of those minutes and give them to players who are better at putting the ball in the hole. To me, that's a tradeoff that could have a major effect. I hope we'll see a shift over the next month.
- Cam was practically always limited by her fouling. FWIW, it never made much sense to me to have her end games with 3 fouls while she sat a bunch of the 1st Q because she picked up an early one. The difference was Tara had major post depth for most of Cam's years, so she could stick by that policy of subbing on every foul. I don't think the same should be applied to players like Alex, where her minutes are being limited by early fouls. My vote would be to be a little less stringent for Nunu, Somfai, and Alex.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - OCcardinal - 12-08-2025
(12-06-2025, 02:29 PM)BillBradley Wrote: Sure, we can score 98 against the Lehighs of the world so our average looks decent, but here's how much we've scored in our toughest games:I would include Santa Clara among our "tough" opponents. We scored 79 against them and they have a higher net rating (67) than Gonzaga (81), FGCU (168) and WSU (225) and are pretty close to CSU (64). Of course that begs the question why we had such difficulty scoring in those other games. It seems being away from our home court is at least one common denominator.
WSU - 54
Gonzaga - 65
FGCU - 62
CSU - 62
Tenn - 62
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - BostonCard - 12-08-2025
1) game to game variability. Sometimes a team is on fire, everything clicks, and they are unstoppable on offense; sometimes they can’t hit the broad side of a barn. If anyone ever figures out how to conquer inconsistency in athletic endeavors, you could have a very successful career as a coach or sports psychologist.
2) I’m too lazy to look, but a better metric might be defensive efficiency than overall team quality. For example, Stanford is an overall ok team but has a very good defense; someone playing us might be expected to struggle offensively more than one might expect given our overall rating.
BC