Outside Topic Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Printable Version
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RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Giants - 09-06-2021
(09-06-2021, 05:09 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(09-06-2021, 12:59 PM)Phogge Wrote: I think mcGee needs to throw the slider more often. It's not bad but he obviously doesn't trust it as an out pitch. His fastball has little movement. He probably won't be around next year. But he has been effective and Santos is suspended and Castro is at least a year away. So Kapler sticks with him.
Something like 32 pitchers this year. It's not like they haven't had auditions.
What about the guy who started yesterday and finished today against he Rockies? Leone?
And Giants, is 2.81 ERA for a closer good (I know it's not great).
In my opinion, ERA is not a good stat to use to determine the effectiveness of a reliever.
For example, if they come into a game with a couple guys on, give up two runs but close out the inning, they post a 0.00 ERA but do not do their job. A better stat is % of base runners inherited who score.
Also, because they don’t pitch a lot of innings, one bad outing can skew their stats unfavorably. For example, pitcher X gives up 5 runs in a third of an inning followed by perfect performances over the next ten games totaling 8 innings. His ERA is 5.40 but his record is 0-1 with 10 saves.
Conversely, pitcher Y gives up three runs in three games (1 inning pitched in each game), costing his team three losses. Otherwise, he is fine over the next eight games, pitching 8 innings beautifully. His ERA is 2.45 but his record is 0-3 with eight saves.
I’ll take pitcher X every time……
RE: leftcoast - Mick - 09-06-2021
(09-06-2021, 12:39 PM)Leftcoast Wrote:Quote:P.S. Doval has closer stuff . . . but I'm not sure about between the ears. - Teejers
How did you feel about Brian Wilson - between the ears? That man was strange and not at all the stoic closer ideal. His WS winning season was … an adventure.
I think that's when Kuiper invented "torture" to describe the Giants at the end of games...and Wilson's WHIP was almost 1.2, much higher than that of McGee's.
And Giants won at Colorado today, 10-5, now 88-50. Gausman now 13-5.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Phogge - 09-06-2021
Yeah I like Leone. His problem like most guys at the level is location. He has the stuff to be a seventh inning guy.
When I mentioned that McGee needs to throw more sliders and the stats seemed to prove it I was using the eye test only. His heater doesn't have enough movement to throw 100% of the time.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - teejers1 - 09-06-2021
(09-06-2021, 05:22 PM)Giants Wrote: In my opinion, ERA is not a good stat to use to determine the effectiveness of a reliever.
For example, if they come into a game with a couple guys on, give up two runs but close out the inning, they post a 0.00 ERA but do not do their job. A better stat is % of base runners inherited who score.
Also, because they don’t pitch a lot of innings, one bad outing can skew their stats unfavorably. For example, pitcher X gives up 5 runs in a third of an inning followed by perfect performances over the next ten games totaling 8 innings. His ERA is 5.40 but his record is 0-1 with 10 saves.
Conversely, pitcher Y gives up three runs in three games (1 inning pitched in each game), costing his team three losses. Otherwise, he is fine over the next eight games, pitching 8 innings beautifully. His ERA is 2.45 but his record is 0-3 with eight saves.
I’ll take pitcher X every time……
In this day and age, closers (almost by definition) do not have inherited runners to worry about. If it's a save situation, they start the ninth. So ERAs for closers is not a bad indicator, even though we all "get" the blowup outing can kill an ERA. To me, good closers are dominant - meaning hitters know what's coming and still can't do much about it. Just don't see McGee in that category.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - BostonCard - 09-06-2021
Posey went 2/5 with a home run and a double. Slump over?
BC
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Goose - 09-06-2021
(09-06-2021, 07:27 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Posey went 2/5 with a home run and a double. Slump over?Maybe. Maybe he got a shot, doesn't hurt so much, and can hit again. Maybe he just got over whatever it was. If it was the former, the question is how long can they prop him up for the 24 remaining games. I am not sure what is legal, but I am sure the training staff knows what the boundaries are.
BC
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - pefloresjr - 09-06-2021
I don't think McGee is in the elite category of closers, but I can't recall a time that the Giants have had a truly top notch, Hall of Fame level closer. However, McGee is really good. His fastball is flat but that is a feature not a bug in his approach. One of the announcers recently discussed it during the broadcast and said it is hard to hit at the top of the strike zone because it stays up. That is where McGee is pitching when he is on. But it is very susceptible to being hit hard if it drops down into the hitting zone. We can wish we had someone better, but Kapler is right that he is the best we've got right now.
So, Teejers, I agree with you that I would prefer it if we had a lock down closer like Mariano Rivera, a "sure thing" playoff starter like MadBum, and the money to throw around to pick up any hitters we want or need as short term rentals (hello f-ing Dodgers). What this team does have is an incredible team/next-man-up attitude, a surprisingly steady pitching staff despite constant changes and injuries, a playoff-intensity hitting approach up and down the lineup, and a belief that they can win every game despite all the pundits refusing to believe in them. I'm having a great time watching the team this year, one of the best of my over 50 years as a fan. Let's worry about the playoffs when the arrive. I'm enjoying hearing Tony sing at the end of wins and flying the same I Heart SF flag in front of my house.
Cheers,
Pete F.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Giants - 09-06-2021
(09-06-2021, 09:03 PM)pefloresjr Wrote: I don't think McGee is in the elite category of closers, but I can't recall a time that the Giants have had a truly top notch, Hall of Fame level closer. However, McGee is really good. His fastball is flat but that is a feature not a bug in his approach. One of the announcers recently discussed it during the broadcast and said it is hard to hit at the top of the strike zone because it stays up. That is where McGee is pitching when he is on. But it is very susceptible to being hit hard if it drops down into the hitting zone. We can wish we had someone better, but Kapler is right that he is the best we've got right now.
So, Teejers, I agree with you that I would prefer it if we had a lock down closer like Mariano Rivera, a "sure thing" playoff starter like MadBum, and the money to throw around to pick up any hitters we want or need as short term rentals (hello f-ing Dodgers). What this team does have is an incredible team/next-man-up attitude, a surprisingly steady pitching staff despite constant changes and injuries, a playoff-intensity hitting approach up and down the lineup, and a belief that they can win every game despite all the pundits refusing to believe in them. I'm having a great time watching the team this year, one of the best of my over 50 years as a fan. Let's worry about the playoffs when the arrive. I'm enjoying hearing Tony sing at the end of wins and flying the same I Heart SF flag in front of my house.
Cheers,
Pete F.
Robb Nen wasn’t quite HOF caliber but he was damn good……..
(09-06-2021, 06:15 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(09-06-2021, 05:22 PM)Giants Wrote: In my opinion, ERA is not a good stat to use to determine the effectiveness of a reliever.
For example, if they come into a game with a couple guys on, give up two runs but close out the inning, they post a 0.00 ERA but do not do their job. A better stat is % of base runners inherited who score.
Also, because they don’t pitch a lot of innings, one bad outing can skew their stats unfavorably. For example, pitcher X gives up 5 runs in a third of an inning followed by perfect performances over the next ten games totaling 8 innings. His ERA is 5.40 but his record is 0-1 with 10 saves.
Conversely, pitcher Y gives up three runs in three games (1 inning pitched in each game), costing his team three losses. Otherwise, he is fine over the next eight games, pitching 8 innings beautifully. His ERA is 2.45 but his record is 0-3 with eight saves.
I’ll take pitcher X every time……
In this day and age, closers (almost by definition) do not have inherited runners to worry about. If it's a save situation, they start the ninth. So ERAs for closers is not a bad indicator, even though we all "get" the blowup outing can kill an ERA. To me, good closers are dominant - meaning hitters know what's coming and still can't do much about it. Just don't see McGee in that category.
I agree that McGee isn’t in that category. I don’t think anyone here thinks he is. Under Kapler, Giants are using a different strategy, using McGee and Rogers in tandem.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - lex24 - 09-07-2021
(09-06-2021, 05:22 PM)Giants Wrote:(09-06-2021, 05:09 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(09-06-2021, 12:59 PM)Phogge Wrote: I think mcGee needs to throw the slider more often. It's not bad but he obviously doesn't trust it as an out pitch. His fastball has little movement. He probably won't be around next year. But he has been effective and Santos is suspended and Castro is at least a year away. So Kapler sticks with him.
Something like 32 pitchers this year. It's not like they haven't had auditions.
What about the guy who started yesterday and finished today against he Rockies? Leone?
And Giants, is 2.81 ERA for a closer good (I know it's not great).
In my opinion, ERA is not a good stat to use to determine the effectiveness of a reliever.
For example, if they come into a game with a couple guys on, give up two runs but close out the inning, they post a 0.00 ERA but do not do their job. A better stat is % of base runners inherited who score.
Also, because they don’t pitch a lot of innings, one bad outing can skew their stats unfavorably. For example, pitcher X gives up 5 runs in a third of an inning followed by perfect performances over the next ten games totaling 8 innings. His ERA is 5.40 but his record is 0-1 with 10 saves.
Conversely, pitcher Y gives up three runs in three games (1 inning pitched in each game), costing his team three losses. Otherwise, he is fine over the next eight games, pitching 8 innings beautifully. His ERA is 2.45 but his record is 0-3 with eight saves.
I’ll take pitcher X every time……
ERA is not necessarily telling for a reliever. WHIP, which I posted is more telling. As is going two months without giving up a run. Strikeout walk ratio is another thing I look at. McGee’s is excellent.
McGee is dominant at times. But his usage is a question. When overused he has trouble getting his fastball up in the zone. Where he is most effective. BTW, hitters DO know what’s coming with McGee. A 4 seam fastball.
McGee has been good this year by any measure. Not great. As I said he’s not Josh Hader. But he’s solid.
(09-06-2021, 08:44 PM)Goose Wrote:(09-06-2021, 07:27 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Posey went 2/5 with a home run and a double. Slump over?Maybe. Maybe he got a shot, doesn't hurt so much, and can hit again. Maybe he just got over whatever it was. If it was the former, the question is how long can they prop him up for the 24 remaining games. I am not sure what is legal, but I am sure the training staff knows what the boundaries are.
BC
He goes into slumps at times like anyone else. He’s 34. Not 50. I don’t think they have been “propping him up” this year. He’s been relatively healthy. Thumb and knee may have contributed a bit to the slump. Who knows.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Phogge - 09-07-2021
There aren’t many closers in the Hall. Wilhelm (who was a reliever, not necessarily a closer) entered in 1985 as the first. Joe Page might have beat him in but he partied all night. His roommate once said, “I roomed with his suitcase.”
Nen was close. Perhaps the SF Giants best ever. But he got hurt and lost his chance.
Giants called up 22 year old Kerwin Castro today. Can pitch multiple innings.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - BobK - 09-07-2021
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=castro000ker
Just 22. Didn’t pitch last year of course
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Phogge - 09-07-2021
Giants have 15 active pitchers.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Giants - 09-07-2021
(09-07-2021, 02:33 PM)Phogge Wrote: Giants have 15 active pitchers.
If they didn’t restrict the September call-ups to two players, the Giants would probably have the rest of the available pitchers on the 40 man roster with the team in Colorado.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - old spanish trail - 09-07-2021
(09-06-2021, 05:59 PM)Phogge Wrote: Yeah I like Leone. His problem like most guys at the level is location. He has the stuff to be a seventh inning guy.
When I mentioned that McGee needs to throw more sliders and the stats seemed to prove it I was using the eye test only. His heater doesn't have enough movement to throw 100% of the time.
Leone IS the 7th inning guy, for the most part. Re McGee's slider, he doesn't throw it for strikes enuf to entice a swing. And, if he does manage to throw it for a strike, it's hittable. I agree it would be great if the Gyros had a totally dependable shutdown guy...but they don't . So....live and die with McGee and hopefully the offense can put up enuf runs that it doesn't matter....like the last two games.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Mick - 09-07-2021
Giants scored 10 runs yesterday and 12 runs tonight. Now 89-50...same number of wins as 2014 championship team. With 24 more games to go.
Tonight, the Giants had the most extra base hits in any game during the season...and just one home run, by Yaz. Duggar had two triples, to go with a double. Posey, Crawford, Belt, La Stella, Wade and Webb also had doubles.
Desclefani pitches against Jon Gray tomorrow at noon pacific.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - DC 86 - 09-08-2021
(09-07-2021, 07:51 AM)lex24 Wrote: ERA is not necessarily telling for a reliever. WHIP, which I posted is more telling. As is going two months without giving up a run. Strikeout walk ratio is another thing I look at. McGee’s is excellent.
McGee is dominant at times. But his usage is a question. When overused he has trouble getting his fastball up in the zone. Where he is most effective. BTW, hitters DO know what’s coming with McGee. A 4 seam fastball.
McGee has been good this year by any measure. Not great. As I said he’s not Josh Hader. But he’s solid.
Nobody is Josh Hader, except for Josh Hader; that's not a reasonable standard. That's like saying that Brandon Crawford is not Fernando Tatis.
McGee has been good but not great? you can define "great" as you wish, but if McGee has been merely good/solid then you have to concede that the number of "great" closers at the moment is very small.
Which closers have both a better WHIP and better K/BB ratio than McGee this year? Liam Hendriks, Raisel Iglesias and Richard Rodriguez. That's the entire list.
Lots of criticism of McGee as if reliable closers are plentiful. Who are the highest paid relievers in baseball?
1. Kenley Jansen ($20 mm) - 1.172 WHIP and 2.00 K/BB ratio.
2. Aroldis Chapman ($17.2 mm) - 1.391 WHIP and 2.39 K/BB ratio, demoted.
3. Craig Kimbrel ($16 mm) - lights out with the Cubs but 4 HR and 9 ER in 13.1 IP with the White Sox thus far. Still, 0.709 WHIP and 4.92 K/BB overall.
4. Will Smith ($13 mm) - 1.182 WHIP and 3.29 K/BB ratio.
5. Zach Britton ($13 mm) - 1.691 WHIP and 1.14 K/BB ratio, now shut down.
Jake McGee with his $2 mm salary has recorded a 0.919 WHIP and 5.80 K/BB ratio.
And Tyler Rogers makes barely over the MLB minimum ($583,000) and has a 0.970 WHIP and 5.00 K/BB ratio.
if I were a Giants fan I would be concerned about reliever overuse and the possibility of fading down the stretch and in the playoffs, but the bullpen has been an immense asset for SF this year, far above merely "solid".
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - BostonCard - 09-08-2021
Magic number to clinch a playoff spot is down to 9.
Giants will hit a 100 wins with .500 ball the rest of the way.
BC
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Phogge - 09-08-2021
Of course McGee’s slider is hittable when he locates over the heart. When he throws it in to RH’s it’s effective.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Mick - 09-08-2021
(09-08-2021, 12:05 AM)DC 86 Wrote: if I were a Giants fan I would be concerned about reliever overuse and the possibility of fading down the stretch and in the playoffs, but the bullpen has been an immense asset for SF this year, far above merely "solid".
I thought 22 year old Kervin Castro looked impressive. Pitched the last two innings of the game in Denver, gave up two hits, no runs, consistently hit mid to high 90s on the gun. First pitch, 97 mph strike at the top of the strike zone. Only downside is that his ball seemed a bit straight to me, chalked it up to the high altitude. Be interesting to see how well he does in SF. 2.86 ERA in the PCL, and that's saying something. 6-1 record, 60 strikeouts in 44 innings.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - teejers1 - 09-08-2021
(09-08-2021, 07:50 AM)Mick Wrote:(09-08-2021, 12:05 AM)DC 86 Wrote: if I were a Giants fan I would be concerned about reliever overuse and the possibility of fading down the stretch and in the playoffs, but the bullpen has been an immense asset for SF this year, far above merely "solid".
I thought 22 year old Kervin Castro looked impressive. Pitched the last two innings of the game in Denver, gave up two hits, no runs, consistently hit mid to high 90s on the gun. First pitch, 97 mph strike at the top of the strike zone. Only downside is that his ball seemed a bit straight to me, chalked it up to the high altitude. Be interesting to see how well he does in SF. 2.86 ERA in the PCL, and that's saying something. 6-1 record, 60 strikeouts in 44 innings.
Agreed on Castro. Could have something there.
And I'm not arguing that McGee isn't a good value at his salary, just that he doesn't exude lockdown closer stuff.
But maybe Lex is right - that he looks more lockdown when he doesn't pitch two or three days in a row.
We're going to find out exactly how good a closer he is in crunch games down this stretch, that's very likely.
P.S. Have I mentioned that it would be a crying shame if this Giants team didn't get to play a real playoff series?