Outside Topic Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Printable Version
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RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - DC 86 - 09-08-2021
(09-08-2021, 09:56 AM)teejers1 Wrote: And I'm not arguing that McGee isn't a good value at his salary, just that he doesn't exude lockdown closer stuff.
Who does currently exude lockdown closer stuff? Perhaps others fit the "dominant closer" profile better, but I just don't think you can name more than five closers who have pitched more effectively this year. Substance over style.
I agree that the two metrics that Lex referenced (WHIP and K/BB ratio) are good measures of closer effectiveness.
Who is SF battling down the stretch and possibly will face in the NL playoffs?
LA: Kenley Jansen (1.17 WHIP, 2.0 K/BB)
SD: Mark Melancon (1.17 WHIP, 2.3 K/BB)
Mil: Josh Hader (0.80 WHIP, 15.5 K/BB)
Cin: Mychal Givens (1.33 WHIP, 2.1 K/BB)
Atl: Will Smith (1.16 WHIP, 3.3 K/BB)
Phl: Ian Kennedy (1.08 WHIP, 4.3 K/BB)
NYM: Edwin Diaz (1.15 WHIP, 3.3 K/BB)
McGee has a 0.92 WHIP with a 5.8 K/BB ratio.
It's true that he doesn't exude elite, dominant shutdown stuff, but his results this season are very strong. Posters are calling for a lockdown closer like Mariano Rivera (greatest ever) and comparing McGee unfavorably to Hader (in a class of his own currently). Fair enough, but more realistically he's been more valuable than all but a handful of MLB closers, and the presence of Rogers makes the SF bullpen an even bigger strength.
SF's key rival (LA) certainly has a closer who exudes an intimidating, shutdown presence, but he's been highly inconsistent, much to the consternation of Dodgers fans. Does he inspire more confidence than the McGee/Rogers tandem?
If I didn't have access to the actual standings I would have guessed that the Giants are playing out the string at under .500 since they are a collection of old, tiring position players who are horrible situational hitters, lucky starters, and merely solid relievers who don't exude closer attributes.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - teejers1 - 09-08-2021
(09-08-2021, 11:07 AM)DC 86 Wrote:(09-08-2021, 09:56 AM)teejers1 Wrote: And I'm not arguing that McGee isn't a good value at his salary, just that he doesn't exude lockdown closer stuff.
Who does currently exude lockdown closer stuff? Perhaps others fit the "dominant closer" profile better, but I just don't think you can name more than five closers who have pitched more effectively this year. Substance over style.
I agree that the two metrics that Lex referenced (WHIP and K/BB ratio) are good measures of closer effectiveness.
Who is SF battling down the stretch and possibly will face in the NL playoffs?
LA: Kenley Jansen (1.17 WHIP, 2.0 K/BB)
SD: Mark Melancon (1.17 WHIP, 2.3 K/BB)
Mil: Josh Hader (0.80 WHIP, 15.5 K/BB)
Cin: Mychal Givens (1.33 WHIP, 2.1 K/BB)
Atl: Will Smith (1.16 WHIP, 3.3 K/BB)
Phl: Ian Kennedy (1.08 WHIP, 4.3 K/BB)
NYM: Edwin Diaz (1.15 WHIP, 3.3 K/BB)
McGee has a 0.92 WHIP with a 5.8 K/BB ratio.
It's true that he doesn't exude elite, dominant shutdown stuff, but his results this season are very strong. Posters are calling for a lockdown closer like Mariano Rivera (greatest ever) and comparing McGee unfavorably to Hader (in a class of his own currently). Fair enough, but more realistically he's been more valuable than all but a handful of MLB closers, and the presence of Rogers makes the SF bullpen an even bigger strength.
SF's key rival (LA) certainly has a closer who exudes an intimidating, shutdown presence, but he's been highly inconsistent, much to the consternation of Dodgers fans. Does he inspire more confidence than the McGee/Rogers tandem?
If I didn't have access to the actual standings I would have guessed that the Giants are playing out the string at under .500 since they are a collection of old, tiring position players who are horrible situational hitters, lucky starters, and merely solid relievers who don't exude closer attributes.
I would have much preferred Kimbrel over McGee, even with your stats on him with the Sox.
(And btw, I don't think Janzen is all that anymore).
And how did it go from McGee to a tandem discussion of Rogers/McGee?
Look, we all agree that the Giants aren't going to switch it up now, barring several meltdowns which we hope don't happen.
We'll see if that turns out to be a problem or not for the Giants. Hope not.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - DC 86 - 09-08-2021
(09-08-2021, 11:20 AM)teejers1 Wrote: I would have much preferred Kimbrel over McGee, even with your stats on him with the Sox.
(And btw, I don't think Janzen is all that anymore).
And how did it go from McGee to a tandem discussion of Rogers/McGee?
Look, we all agree that the Giants aren't going to switch it up now, barring several meltdowns which we hope don't happen.
We'll see if that turns out to be a problem or not for the Giants. Hope not.
Kimbrel is in the half dozen or so who have performed better this year than McGee, perhaps I didn't specify that clearly enough.
The comparison to the other NL closers was against McGee individually, that was made clear in the comparison above, but the presence of Rogers was acknowledged separately in the broader discussion of how things may play out down the stretch.
It may be that the Giants bullpen collapses, but it's absurd not to acknowledge McGee's objective performance through the first 85% of the season. Besides Hader and Kimbrel, who do you think has performed better to date in 20021? It would be hard to argue convincingly for more than 3-4 (Hendriks is the only really obvious one).
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - BostonCard - 09-08-2021
If you are into WAR, then McGee is worth about 1.1 WAR.
https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=rel&lg=all&qual=0&type=6&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=14710,10430,14212,3096,6986,7550,4264,8048&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31
By comparison:
Mil: Josh Hader 2.2 WAR
NYM: Edwin Diaz 1.7 WAR
LA: Kenley Jansen 1.2 WAR
SD: Mark Melancon 0.8 WAR
Atl: Will Smith 0.4 WAR
Cin: Mychal Givens 0.2 WAR
Phl: Ian Kennedy 0.1 WAR
So, compared to the other relievers, McGee is above average, but well below Hader and Diaz.
BC
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - BobK - 09-08-2021
Giants win again. McGee save 34.
Great late hitting.
Dodgers playing now
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - BobK - 09-08-2021
Dodgers lose Giants up by 2
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - BostonCard - 09-08-2021
Magic number is 21.
Magic number to clinch a playoff spot is 8.
BC
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Giants - 09-08-2021
Numbers…
The last time the Giants won 90 of their first 140 games? 1913
LaMonte Wade Jr. is 9/15 batting in the ninth inning.
LaMonte Wade Jr. is hitting .409 with runners in scoring position and two outs.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - teejers1 - 09-08-2021
(09-08-2021, 10:53 PM)Giants Wrote: Numbers…
The last time the Giants won 90 of their first 140 games? 1913
LaMonte Wade Jr. is 9/15 batting in the ninth inning.
LaMonte Wade Jr. is hitting .409 with runners in scoring position and two outs.
The ninth inning today for the Giants was about as good as it gets, and a BIG part of that was Longoria's two-out, pick-up-both-Crawford-and-Bryant-who-whiffed-immediately-prior, 2-RBI double.
And McGee went 1-2-3, right? I didn't see that, but saw the final out highlight (2 out, nobody on).
NICE!!
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - BostonCard - 09-09-2021
Yes, a 1-2-3 inning for McGee on 10 pitches.
BC
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Phogge - 09-09-2021
Bryant swings and misses a lot. Should lay off high and tight.
lex24 - lex24 - 09-09-2021
(09-08-2021, 10:53 PM)Giants Wrote: Numbers…
The last time the Giants won 90 of their first 140 games? 1913
LaMonte Wade Jr. is 9/15 batting in the ninth inning.
LaMonte Wade Jr. is hitting .409 with runners in scoring position and two outs.
Wade has been unreal. There is an argument for him being Giants MVP. I know this, no way they are in this position without him. I remember when they got him for Shaun Anderson. Yawn. Big deal, right. Well….
Zaidi finds those diamonds. I think one reason is he is so willing to grab. Some fail and are gone. But Yaz, Wade, Leone, Littell Estrada and I’m sure more to come.
Now, what do they do this offseason. They have a boatload of money to spend. And a pitching staff to rebuild. Job 1 - resign Gausman. Maybe DeSclafani and/or Wood. Then it’s FA time. With more to burn. I do want to see how they navigate those waters.
Dodger payroll is $100,000,000 higher than Giants. To compete year in year out the Giants are going to have to spend. Zaidi and Co have managed to build up the minor league system while assembling a team that has the best record in baseball. Without anyone that is considered star status (Posey was at one time and still is IMO, but he’s older and this was not expected from him. Ditto Crawford, who was one of the better SS in NL but had dropped precipitously in ‘19). What they have done is incredible. How they maintain this moving forward will be fascinating to watch.
Zaidi wins EOY. Kapler MOY. And boy was I wrong on him. There’s still something about the guy that bugs me quite honestly. But he’s done a terrific job. I think a lot of it is he and Zaidi are just so in tune together that it works. Which I’m sure is why Zaidi wanted him in first place.
Giants had hellacious 19 game stretch (A’s, Mets, Braves (road) Brewers (4) Dodgers then at Colorado (where Rockies have a terrific record). Last 16 without an off day. I thought this could be that 5-14 stretch. They went 12-7.
(09-09-2021, 08:05 AM)Phogge Wrote: Bryant swings and misses a lot. Should lay off high and tight.
He hasn’t got hot yet. Be good to see. One big concern is he is showing early symptoms of Steve Sax disease.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Phogge - 09-09-2021
Check the FA list Lex. Few below 30. To me the bargain is Iglesias (32). Syndergaard is tempting but his projected deal is 29 million per. A lot to gamble on a guy coming off injury. Freeman? 32, probably wants four years. Wood is making 3 mill. I would sign him for two years for that and he stays as #4. Glausman estimated at 29 million.
Defensively I like Contreras. Keep Casalli, move Buster to first?
Hot Stove will be fun.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - DC 86 - 09-09-2021
(09-08-2021, 01:48 PM)BostonCard Wrote: If you are into WAR, then McGee is worth about 1.1 WAR.
I am into WAR although I think closer is the position for which WAR is least useful and often misleading.
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Phogge - 09-09-2021
I am fond of war movies.
lex24 - lex24 - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 08:21 AM)Phogge Wrote: Check the FA list Lex. Few below 30. To me the bargain is Iglesias (32). Syndergaard is tempting but his projected deal is 29 million per. A lot to gamble on a guy coming off injury. Freeman? 32, probably wants four years. Wood is making 3 mill. I would sign him for two years for that and he stays as #4. Glausman estimated at 29 million.
Defensively I like Contreras. Keep Casalli, move Buster to first?
Hot Stove will be fun.
If Buster moves it will be for Bart. But I think there is a good chance Bart gets traded. I think they like Bailey more. And Buster/Casali can hold down the position for one more year.
RE: lex24 - Giants - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 08:11 AM)lex24 Wrote:(09-08-2021, 10:53 PM)Giants Wrote: Numbers…
The last time the Giants won 90 of their first 140 games? 1913
LaMonte Wade Jr. is 9/15 batting in the ninth inning.
LaMonte Wade Jr. is hitting .409 with runners in scoring position and two outs.
Wade has been unreal. There is an argument for him being Giants MVP. I know this, no way they are in this position without him. I remember when they got him for Shaun Anderson. Yawn. Big deal, right. Well….
Zaidi finds those diamonds. I think one reason is he is so willing to grab. Some fail and are gone. But Yaz, Wade, Leone, Littell Estrada and I’m sure more to come.
Now, what do they do this offseason. They have a boatload of money to spend. And a pitching staff to rebuild. Job 1 - resign Gausman. Maybe DeSclafani and/or Wood. Then it’s FA time. With more to burn. I do want to see how they navigate those waters.
Dodger payroll is $100,000,000 higher than Giants. To compete year in year out the Giants are going to have to spend. Zaidi and Co have managed to build up the minor league system while assembling a team that has the best record in baseball. Without anyone that is considered star status (Posey was at one time and still is IMO, but he’s older and this was not expected from him. Ditto Crawford, who was one of the better SS in NL but had dropped precipitously in ‘19). What they have done is incredible. How they maintain this moving forward will be fascinating to watch.
Zaidi wins EOY. Kapler MOY. And boy was I wrong on him. There’s still something about the guy that bugs me quite honestly. But he’s done a terrific job. I think a lot of it is he and Zaidi are just so in tune together that it works. Which I’m sure is why Zaidi wanted him in first place.
Giants had hellacious 19 game stretch (A’s, Mets, Braves (road) Brewers (4) Dodgers then at Colorado (where Rockies have a terrific record). Last 16 without an off day. I thought this could be that 5-14 stretch. They went 12-7.
(09-09-2021, 08:05 AM)Phogge Wrote: Bryant swings and misses a lot. Should lay off high and tight.
He hasn’t got hot yet. Be good to see. One big concern is he is showing early symptoms of Steve Sax disease.
The big unknown is the upcoming CBA negotiation. If MLB is successful in their effort to implement a significant luxury tax increase for the big spending clubs, it is going to have a profound effect on the Dodgers, Yankees, Giants and other teams at the top of the payroll ladder.
While the hot stove is going to be interesting this year, I suspect very little will be accomplished until after a new CBA is agreed upon.
In the meantime, resign Buster and I’ll be happy…..
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - BostonCard - 09-09-2021
Funny that no one has mentioned coconut oil in a while. Winning does that.
BC
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Phogge - 09-09-2021
If I were younger I might have tried it.
He still looks like one of the guys who sang "YMCA."
RE: [merged] Giants/Niners 2021 thread - lex24 - 09-09-2021
How much has baseball changed? Dodgers have used 32 pitchers this year. Giants 31 (not including Tauchman, Ruf and Slater).
(09-09-2021, 10:59 AM)Giants Wrote:(09-09-2021, 08:11 AM)lex24 Wrote:(09-08-2021, 10:53 PM)Giants Wrote: Numbers…
The last time the Giants won 90 of their first 140 games? 1913
LaMonte Wade Jr. is 9/15 batting in the ninth inning.
LaMonte Wade Jr. is hitting .409 with runners in scoring position and two outs.
Wade has been unreal. There is an argument for him being Giants MVP. I know this, no way they are in this position without him. I remember when they got him for Shaun Anderson. Yawn. Big deal, right. Well….
Zaidi finds those diamonds. I think one reason is he is so willing to grab. Some fail and are gone. But Yaz, Wade, Leone, Littell Estrada and I’m sure more to come.
Now, what do they do this offseason. They have a boatload of money to spend. And a pitching staff to rebuild. Job 1 - resign Gausman. Maybe DeSclafani and/or Wood. Then it’s FA time. With more to burn. I do want to see how they navigate those waters.
Dodger payroll is $100,000,000 higher than Giants. To compete year in year out the Giants are going to have to spend. Zaidi and Co have managed to build up the minor league system while assembling a team that has the best record in baseball. Without anyone that is considered star status (Posey was at one time and still is IMO, but he’s older and this was not expected from him. Ditto Crawford, who was one of the better SS in NL but had dropped precipitously in ‘19). What they have done is incredible. How they maintain this moving forward will be fascinating to watch.
Zaidi wins EOY. Kapler MOY. And boy was I wrong on him. There’s still something about the guy that bugs me quite honestly. But he’s done a terrific job. I think a lot of it is he and Zaidi are just so in tune together that it works. Which I’m sure is why Zaidi wanted him in first place.
Giants had hellacious 19 game stretch (A’s, Mets, Braves (road) Brewers (4) Dodgers then at Colorado (where Rockies have a terrific record). Last 16 without an off day. I thought this could be that 5-14 stretch. They went 12-7.
(09-09-2021, 08:05 AM)Phogge Wrote: Bryant swings and misses a lot. Should lay off high and tight.
He hasn’t got hot yet. Be good to see. One big concern is he is showing early symptoms of Steve Sax disease.
The big unknown is the upcoming CBA negotiation. If MLB is successful in their effort to implement a significant luxury tax increase for the big spending clubs, it is going to have a profound effect on the Dodgers, Yankees, Giants and other teams at the top of the payroll ladder.
While the hot stove is going to be interesting this year, I suspect very little will be accomplished until after a new CBA is agreed upon.
In the meantime, resign Buster and I’ll be happy…..
True on the CBA luxury tax issue. Except right now, Giants are not at the top of the payroll ladder.