Outside Topic OT: Giants 2023 thread - Printable Version
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RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - cardcrimson - 08-27-2023
(08-27-2023, 08:28 AM)lex24 Wrote: Not so sure of that Bob. I read he was working on it. But not sure it’s a big part of his arsenal. I could be wrong. He may have had a chaneup as his second pitch in HS. But not in the minors.
Edit : Reread Keith Law’s bit on him. Best secondary pitch is a plus slider. “Doesn’t have much of a change up.” That jives with what I read earlier, that he was working to improve his change up.
From MLB.com:
"Known more for his polish than his stuff in high school, Harrison has shown the ability to miss bats with three different pitches as he has matured physically. He generated a tremendous 41 percent swing-and-miss rate with his four-seam fastball in Double-A, sitting at 92-95 mph and peaking at 97 with riding action and a flat approach angle from a low three-quarters arm slot. Hitters didn't have much more success against his plus low-80s slider with sweep or his improved mid-80s changeup with fade and sink."
(08-27-2023, 08:57 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(08-27-2023, 08:28 AM)lex24 Wrote: Can’t do that as long as you are in the hunt. Unfair to the vets etc. Plus they are far from out of it. Also, the schedule eases up considerably .
A. The schedule does not ease up considerably when you aren't very good.
B. "Unfair to vets" ???
On what planet does a team care about "the vets" more than its own interest? "The vets" had their chance. They have gone 8-15 in August to date, and are now in 5th place for Wild Card spot.
Rangers, Rays, Braves, Phillies, Braves. Pretty tough 15 game stretch. Padres, Cubs, Rockies, Guardians, Rockies. Pretty reasonable 16 game stretch. On what planet does the latter equate with the former when it comes to level of difficulty?
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 08-27-2023
(08-27-2023, 08:57 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(08-27-2023, 08:28 AM)lex24 Wrote: Can’t do that as long as you are in the hunt. Unfair to the vets etc. Plus they are far from out of it. Also, the sche eases up considerably .
A. The schedule does not ease up considerably when you aren't very good.
B. "Unfair to vets" ???
On what planet does a team care about "the vets" more than its own interest? "The vets" had their chance. They have gone 8-15 in August to date, and are now in 5th place for Wild Card spot.
Caring about the vets is caring about their self interest. They are 1.5 game out. The schedule does ease up, despite your non-response. Either the vets get you there or they don’t. They’ve played well enough to keep them in the hunt. You don’t dump it now and play a lineup that is not essentially raising the white flag and starting the ‘24 season.
(08-27-2023, 10:01 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:(08-27-2023, 08:28 AM)lex24 Wrote: Not so sure of that Bob. I read he was working on it. But not sure it’s a big part of his arsenal. I could be wrong. He may have had a chaneup as his second pitch in HS. But not in the minors.
Edit : Reread Keith Law’s bit on him. Best secondary pitch is a plus slider. “Doesn’t have much of a change up.” That jives with what I read earlier, that he was working to improve his change up.
From MLB.com:
"Known more for his polish than his stuff in high school, Harrison has shown the ability to miss bats with three different pitches as he has matured physically. He generated a tremendous 41 percent swing-and-miss rate with his four-seam fastball in Double-A, sitting at 92-95 mph and peaking at 97 with riding action and a flat approach angle from a low three-quarters arm slot. Hitters didn't have much more success against his plus low-80s slider with sweep or his improved mid-80s changeup with fade and sink."
(08-27-2023, 08:57 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(08-27-2023, 08:28 AM)lex24 Wrote: Can’t do that as long as you are in the hunt. Unfair to the vets etc. Plus they are far from out of it. Also, the schedule eases up considerably .
A. The schedule does not ease up considerably when you aren't very good.
B. "Unfair to vets" ???
On what planet does a team care about "the vets" more than its own interest? "The vets" had their chance. They have gone 8-15 in August to date, and are now in 5th place for Wild Card spot.
Rangers, Rays, Braves, Phillies, Braves. Pretty tough 15 game stretch. Padres, Cubs, Rockies, Guardians, Rockies. Pretty reasonable 16 game stretch. On what planet does the latter equate with the former when it comes to level of difficulty?
Yes, MLB confirmed what I said. “Improved” change up is the work in progress. His splits at AAA indicate he struggled a bit with righthanders. Which is part of they reason they threw him ve the Phillies, whose power comes primarily from left side. Results were bizarre as RH went 0-9. Lefties 5-5. I believe he threw a few change ups time out. Part of the reason for his splits was the lack of a solid third pitc. Slider plays better vs lefties.
He is primarily a fastball slider guy at this point, working to improve his third pitch. Not saying he doesn’t have a change up. Just that it’s not a true weapon for him yet. If it becomes one, he has a chance to be special.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 08-27-2023
OK, I'm happy. I just saw Casey Schmitt hit a 425ft HR with 107 MPH exit velocity. The guy can do it. Just needs more ABs!
Tristan Beck looks really sharp through 2 innings. Giants lead 2-0 after 2 trying to salvage a game of the Braves.
I don't even care if they lose now. Just pleased to see a 2-0 lead.
Beck is perfect through 4 innings. Probably won't last much longer, but cool to see.
Remember, Beck used to be in the Atlanta system until the Giants traded Mark Melancon for him in 2019.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 08-28-2023
(08-27-2023, 04:41 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: OK, I'm happy. I just saw Casey Schmitt hit a 425ft HR with 107 MPH exit velocity. The guy can do it. Just needs more ABs!
Tristan Beck looks really sharp through 2 innings. Giants lead 2-0 after 2 trying to salvage a game of the Braves.
I don't even care if they lose now. Just pleased to see a 2-0 lead.
Beck is perfect through 4 innings. Probably won't last much longer, but cool to see.
Remember, Beck used to be in the Atlanta system until the Giants traded Mark Melancon for him in 2019.
Beck should have been stretched out and added to rotation much earlier. Pitched very well against a team that if season ended today would be considered one of top offensive teams in baseball history.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 08-28-2023
Thairo Estrada channeling his inner Edgar Renteria and Hunter Pence???
https://theathletic.com/4811700/2023/08/28/thairo-estrada-challenges-giants/
Giants played a pretty inspired game after he addressed the team. Will his message make a difference the rest of the way? We'll see.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 08-28-2023
(08-28-2023, 10:29 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Thairo Estrada channeling his inner Edgar Renteria and Hunter Pence???
https://theathletic.com/4811700/2023/08/28/thairo-estrada-challenges-giants/
Giants played a pretty inspired game after he addressed the team. Will his message make a difference the rest of the way? We'll see.
Hope so. And I'm hopeful that the rookies will (continue to) turn it around. Schmitt had his first home run since May. Wade Meckler, who started 3 for 17 with 11 strikeouts, has gone 6 for 16 with five strikeouts in the last week. He's now at .273/.385/.273/.657 in 9 starts. No extra base hits yet, but hopefully he's turning it around.
I really like the young guys on this team, the rookies and the players age 27 or under. Walker, Webb, Doval, and Bailey's been a success, Beck (IMHO) is a success, Harrison looks like he's going to crush the competition. Keaton Winn and Hjelle are an inch away from being real successes. Sabol is finding his way (not yet a success, but should be a pretty good utility player). I think Luciano, Ramos and Matos are on their way. I don't know about Cole Waites, David Villar, Bryce Johnson or Brett Wisely, they'll have to step it up. And incidentally, he's not young any more, but watching Austin Slater get on base four times in five appearances was pretty great. He scored twice, had an RBI, didn't strike out. Pretty cool.
BTW, it'll be nice to get Haniger and Yaz back. Haniger hit 39 bombs two years ago. Hopefully he can improve right through the playoffs. Giants are a game and a half out of the wild card.
Giants vs. Cincy, 6:45 at Oracle. Kyle Harrison starting. Be interesting to see what tonight's attendance is. Giants averaged just under 35k for the Fri/Sat/Sun series against the Braves. Their last Monday game against the Rays was 25,748.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - cardcrimson - 08-28-2023
(08-28-2023, 10:59 AM)Mick Wrote: BTW, it'll be nice to get Haniger and Yaz back. Haniger hit 39 bombs two years ago. Hopefully he can improve right through the playoffs. Giants are a game and a half out of the wild card.
Not sure the impact, but not having those two for an extended period of time had to be worth a few games. Odd how it's been pretty much overlooked. "Next man up" sounds good, but isn't a reality in most cases. . ..
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - cardcrimson - 08-28-2023
Yeah, not so sure about this two pitch Kyle Harrison kid. . . .
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 08-28-2023
Harrison was electric. 11 strikeouts in his Giants debut, second only to Juan Marichal's 12 in 1960.
Slater was 1 for 2, then Meckler pinch hit for him. Meckler (1 for 1) is now hitting .294. He had his first extra base hit, a double.
Giants got a little sloppy, but won, 4-1. They're 1 game behind both the Cubs and Diamondbacks for the last wild card spot.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 08-28-2023
(08-28-2023, 09:30 PM)Mick Wrote: Harrison was electric. 11 strikeouts in his Giants debut, second only to Juan Marichal's 12 in 1960.
Slater was 1 for 2, then Meckler pinch hit for him. Meckler (1 for 1) is now hitting .294. He had his first extra base hit, a double.
Giants got a little sloppy, but won, 4-1. They're 1 game behind both the Cubs and Diamondbacks for the last wild card spot.
Harrison’s home debut. He pitched in Philadelphia last week.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - pefloresjr - 08-28-2023
(08-28-2023, 09:30 PM)Mick Wrote: Harrison was electric. 11 strikeouts in his Giants debut, second only to Juan Marichal's 12 in 1960.
Slater was 1 for 2, then Meckler pinch hit for him. Meckler (1 for 1) is now hitting .294. He had his first extra base hit, a double.
Giants got a little sloppy, but won, 4-1. They're 1 game behind both the Cubs and Diamondbacks for the last wild card spot.
That was really exciting. Gives me hope for three possible legit starters if we make the playoffs this year. Harrison didn't seem overwhelmed by the moment. We also need our vets to get healthy and get back to hitting. I'm surprised but hope lives.
Cheers,
Pete F.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 08-29-2023
(08-28-2023, 09:22 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Yeah, not so sure about this two pitch Kyle Harrison kid. . . .
Card, I suspect that comment was at me. He was spectacular last night. But again, primarily two pitches. He threw 2 change ups vs Philly. 6 last night. Threw it a bit more later in game. Including two in a row to DeLaCruz. Makes sense, it was the third time he saw him. So, it was good to see him go to it.
Biggest difference was twofold : 1 command was better. 2. Slider was significantly better. Had considerably more bite. It was nasty last night.
I never said he didn’t have a change up. Just that he didn’t use it much and it’s a work in progress. That was the result of reading numerous reports on him from his time at Sac. As Krukow said, he gets that down and it’s a brobdingnagian weapon. Especially to right handers, with whom he had significantly more problems in Sac. So, if he adds a nasty change, I’ll be thrilled. Perhaps he worked on it considerably last couple times out in SAC. Perhaps he’s getting more help with it with SF pitching coaches. In any event, I’m confident it will get better, he will have more confidence in it and we will see him more. So, mayne he will be a three pitch guy shortly. As I said - never claimed he didn’t throw a change up.
Most exciting thing to me was his efficiency. Never had to throw a lot of pitches in any one inning. Which allowed him to get deep. He did get a little help from an ump with a gigantic strike zone.
He was tremendous, obviously. Very exciting.
(08-28-2023, 10:03 PM)Giants Wrote:(08-28-2023, 09:30 PM)Mick Wrote: Harrison was electric. 11 strikeouts in his Giants debut, second only to Juan Marichal's 12 in 1960.
Slater was 1 for 2, then Meckler pinch hit for him. Meckler (1 for 1) is now hitting .294. He had his first extra base hit, a double.
Giants got a little sloppy, but won, 4-1. They're 1 game behind both the Cubs and Diamondbacks for the last wild card spot.
Harrison’s home debut. He pitched in Philadelphia last week.
Why would you PH Pederson in bottom of 6 up 3 knowing he’d be going into LF. Run was on him. He took a poor angle on DeLa Cruz hit. Bizarre move.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - cardcrimson - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 07:12 AM)lex24 Wrote:(08-28-2023, 09:22 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Yeah, not so sure about this two pitch Kyle Harrison kid. . . .
Card, I suspect that comment was at me. He was spectacular last night. But again, primarily two pitches. He threw 2 change ups vs Philly. 6 last night. Threw it a bit more later in game. Including two in a row to DeLaCruz. Makes sense, it was the third time he saw him. So, it was good to see him go to it.
Nah, just howling at the wind a little bit. . . .
And what the hell is a sweeper?
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 07:40 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:(08-29-2023, 07:12 AM)lex24 Wrote:(08-28-2023, 09:22 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Yeah, not so sure about this two pitch Kyle Harrison kid. . . .
Card, I suspect that comment was at me. He was spectacular last night. But again, primarily two pitches. He threw 2 change ups vs Philly. 6 last night. Threw it a bit more later in game. Including two in a row to DeLaCruz. Makes sense, it was the third time he saw him. So, it was good to see him go to it.
Nah, just howling at the wind a little bit. . . .
And what the hell is a sweeper?
It's a slider with more horizontal break. It was Romo's signature pitch. Adam Ottavino credited Romo for teaching it to him.
https://www.stltoday.com/sports/what-is-a-sweeper-a-look-at-the-pitch-taking-over-mlb/article_fe68d916-2931-5b65-97e8-fa419434d9c9.html
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 08-29-2023
Harrison - even aside from his effectiveness - is entertaining to watch with just his confidence and mannerisms on the hill. The way he pauses during his delivery and lifts his arm up after throwing is quite unique.
What stands out to me about his home debut is how many guys swung at pitches out of the zone against him, particularly the fastball. Not uncommon to see sliders and change-ups get misses out of zone, but fastballs really off the plate is remarkable.
Is it his arm angle, movement or both that makes him so deceptive?
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - cardcrimson - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 09:30 AM)Mick Wrote:(08-29-2023, 07:40 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:(08-29-2023, 07:12 AM)lex24 Wrote:(08-28-2023, 09:22 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Yeah, not so sure about this two pitch Kyle Harrison kid. . . .
Card, I suspect that comment was at me. He was spectacular last night. But again, primarily two pitches. He threw 2 change ups vs Philly. 6 last night. Threw it a bit more later in game. Including two in a row to DeLaCruz. Makes sense, it was the third time he saw him. So, it was good to see him go to it.
Nah, just howling at the wind a little bit. . . .
And what the hell is a sweeper?
It's a slider with more horizontal break. It was Romo's signature pitch. Adam Ottavino credited Romo for teaching it to him.
https://www.stltoday.com/sports/what-is-a-sweeper-a-look-at-the-pitch-taking-over-mlb/article_fe68d916-2931-5b65-97e8-fa419434d9c9.html
But Sergio didn't throw a "sweeper":
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/sergio-romo-489265?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb
Love Bob Melvin's take on it:
https://apnews.com/article/sweeper-pitch-baseball-4a18c6f077c7cc3c062dc9e13519174f
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 10:57 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:(08-29-2023, 09:30 AM)Mick Wrote:(08-29-2023, 07:40 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:(08-29-2023, 07:12 AM)lex24 Wrote:(08-28-2023, 09:22 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Yeah, not so sure about this two pitch Kyle Harrison kid. . . .
Card, I suspect that comment was at me. He was spectacular last night. But again, primarily two pitches. He threw 2 change ups vs Philly. 6 last night. Threw it a bit more later in game. Including two in a row to DeLaCruz. Makes sense, it was the third time he saw him. So, it was good to see him go to it.
Nah, just howling at the wind a little bit. . . .
And what the hell is a sweeper?
It's a slider with more horizontal break. It was Romo's signature pitch. Adam Ottavino credited Romo for teaching it to him.
https://www.stltoday.com/sports/what-is-a-sweeper-a-look-at-the-pitch-taking-over-mlb/article_fe68d916-2931-5b65-97e8-fa419434d9c9.html
But Sergio didn't throw a "sweeper":
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/sergio-romo-489265?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb
Love Bob Melvin's take on it:
https://apnews.com/article/sweeper-pitch-baseball-4a18c6f077c7cc3c062dc9e13519174f
Love that Baseball Savant site. Incidentally, your Bob Melvin link notes that Ottavino learned it from Sergio Romo: "Ottavino also credited former Giants reliever Sergio Romo for his sweeper, saying it provided some inspiration."
KNBR also thought Romo threw a sweeper:
https://www.knbr.com/2023/03/20/how-sergio-romos-grandfather-helped-him-discover-patented-slider/#:~:text=Romo's%20slider%20that%20breaks%20horizontally,nine%20years%20with%20the%20Giants.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 08-29-2023
Giants won 6-1, Alex Cobb carried a no-hitter until two outs in the ninth. Gave up a double to the right/center field gap.
Austin Slater made an amazing sliding catch of a shallow pop fly in the 8th inning...went to replay, it was an out. Slater batted leadoff again, two for three with a walk and two runs scored. I think he's back...
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?&pglt=41&q=austin+slater+sliding+catch&cvid=6b463662e4a746d4bb0be7995fc60407&aqs=edge..69i57j69i64j0l2.3247j0j1&pc=HCTS&ru=%2fsearch%3fpglt%3d41%26q%3daustin%2bslater%2bsliding%2bcatch%26cvid%3d6b463662e4a746d4bb0be7995fc60407%26aqs%3dedge..69i57j69i64j0l2.3247j0j1%26FORM%3dANNTA1%26PC%3dHCTS&view=detail&mmscn=vwrc&mid=324940E37A4951ABA536324940E37A4951ABA536&FORM=VDRVSR&ajaxhist=0
Giants are now tied with the Diamondbacks for the sixth and final playoff spot. They have a 6-5 record vs. the Diamondbacks, so right now, the Giants would have the third wild card spot.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - cardcrimson - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 01:44 PM)Mick Wrote:(08-29-2023, 10:57 AM)cardcrimson Wrote: But Sergio didn't throw a "sweeper":
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/sergio-romo-489265?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb
Love Bob Melvin's take on it:
https://apnews.com/article/sweeper-pitch-baseball-4a18c6f077c7cc3c062dc9e13519174f
Love that Baseball Savant site. Incidentally, your Bob Melvin link notes that Ottavino learned it from Sergio Romo: "Ottavino also credited former Giants reliever Sergio Romo for his sweeper, saying it provided some inspiration."
KNBR also thought Romo threw a sweeper:
https://www.knbr.com/2023/03/20/how-sergio-romos-grandfather-helped-him-discover-patented-slider/#:~:text=Romo's%20slider%20that%20breaks%20horizontally,nine%20years%20with%20the%20Giants.
Still love Melvin's take on it:
"A few seconds later, Melvin was asked a simple question: What exactly is a sweeper? “I don’t know,” Melvin said, laughing. “It’s new-age baseball talk. A slider’s probably got a little more depth and the sweeper probably comes across a little more. I’ve made that joke, too. I still write it down as a slider.”
"It's new-age baseball talk". Perfect.
When did people actually start using the term? My guess would be this season or last at the earliest. . . .
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - pefloresjr - 08-30-2023
People can call Romo's signature pitch a sweeper now if they choose, but when he threw it in his career and won a World Series for the Giants with it, it was a slider. Nobody ever called it a sweeper then. Changing the name base on a slight, unclear difference in angle seems a little silly to me. I'm with Melvin, slider worked just fine then and works just as well now.
Cheers,
Pete F.