FB -- NC State Game Thread - Printable Version
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RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - needle - 11-02-2024
(11-02-2024, 12:43 PM)SkiBum80 Wrote: As miserable a low point as this is,
Coach still has a needed Bye week,
And then 3 games left, with very little travel,
To show that this team reached their abysmal nadir, but have climbed out, and are possibly better than last years, and are finally moving in the right direction.
Or not.
This is the rational take. TT did enough against Wake to keep his job.
Too much was going against Stanford heading into this game--the travel, the opponent coming off a bye, the terrible match-up. The outcome today was very, very predictable.
The meaningful game today for Stanford fans took place in West Lafayette, Indiana. The match-up between Purdue and Northwestern was a true pillow fight. Purdue, by record, started the day as the worst P4 team, with zero conference wins and their only victory on the season against FCS Indiana State.
Looking at the Boilermakers' remaining schedule--Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan State and then red hot Indiana--today was clearly their best and possibly only realistic chance to win a game against an FBS opponent.
Purdue almost pulled out a victory, but inexplicably passed on a 38-yeard field goal attempt in the first half of the first OT. A fourth down pass fell incomplete, and Northwestern scored a TD on their possession in overtime.
It's not quite a done deal, but it is looking like Stanford will NOT finish the year as the consensus worst team in P4 football.
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - newguy - 11-02-2024
(11-02-2024, 01:01 PM)needle Wrote: It's not quite a done deal, but it is looking like Stanford will NOT finish the year as the consensus worst team in P4 football.
something to build on!
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - SkiBum80 - 11-02-2024
(11-02-2024, 01:10 PM)newguy Wrote:Possible team shirts:(11-02-2024, 01:01 PM)needle Wrote: It's not quite a done deal, but it is looking like Stanford will NOT finish the year as the consensus worst team in P4 football.
something to build on!
We’re not the worst!
(But there’s always next year)
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - Goose - 11-02-2024
(11-02-2024, 12:04 PM)crackpot Wrote: Sorry, if you let your player stay on the field after he kicks the opponent in the head (and, perhaps, took a swing at a ref?), you need to go.I am guessing TT had other things on his mind at that point. It was up to the position coach to make sure he left the sideline. I understand the game can be frustrating. I also can understand that the NC State player may have said or done something quite inappropriate. However, losing your cool and kicking somebody in the head is off the charts unallowable. The player should be suspended indefinitely from the team at a minimum. I doubt there is a down side in doing so. I strongly suspect Bailey will be in the portal in any case. This is his Junior season. He only has one year left to get himself into the NFL. He isn't doing that at Stanford. He makes some great plays and some incredibly boneheaded ones too. He doesn't seem to be becoming a more disciplined player. He will fit well at USC.
Quote:I've been hopeful, I've been patient. But this game is showing that this was a terrible, terrible hire.Agree this was an execrable performance by the team. So far I have seen nothing from TT that indicates he can take the level of athletes he has recruited and make a competitive ACC team out of them. As others point out there are three games remaining to change that evaluation. It unfortunately seems unlikely Muir has somebody waiting in the wings to come in, take over and produce quick improvement. The player talent level just won't support that. Right now Stanford is a deeply unattractive program. IMO finding a replacement that would actually improve results will be at best a leap of faith.
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - lex24 - 11-02-2024
I’m sorry, but I think there is a fair amount of delusion on this board. The talent level is low. It will continue to be unless and until Stanford changes its approach to NIL and the portal. You aren’t going to get top talent without shelling out big bucks for it. You think, for example, Elway or McCaffrey would have gone to Stanford under today’s situation? And if so, stayed? Luck, maybe. But he’s a unicorn.
They are not going to get enough good players to compete unless they increase NIL and loosen up transfer rules to take full advantage of the portal.
Fire TT and hire who? I mean it’s not quite like the Chicago White Sox job. But close.
The program is on life support. I don’t think the Admin gives a damn. Therein lies the biggest problem. Not the HC.
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - chrisk - 11-02-2024
(11-02-2024, 01:26 PM)lex24 Wrote: I’m sorry, but I think there is a fair amount of delusion on this board. The talent level is low. It will continue to be unless and until Stanford changes its approach to NIL and the portal. You aren’t going to get top talent without shelling out big bucks for it. You think, for example, Elway or McCaffrey would have gone to Stanford under today’s situation? And if so, stayed? Luck, maybe. But he’s a unicorn.
They are not going to get enough good players to compete unless they increase NIL and loosen up transfer rules to take full advantage of the portal.
Fire TT and hire who? I mean it’s not quite like the Chicago White Sox job. But close.
The program is on life support. I don’t think the Admin gives a damn. Therein lies the biggest problem. Not the HC.
Note that only 2 of the 10 teams that moved on from the PAC-12 have winning conference records. Stanford is not the only team having problems in their new conference. Other teams have regressed more. The second year will be a better measuring stick for all of these teams.
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - Mick - 11-02-2024
(11-02-2024, 12:53 PM)Row80Critic Wrote:(11-02-2024, 12:11 PM)chrisk Wrote:(11-02-2024, 12:04 PM)crackpot Wrote: Sorry, if you let your player stay on the field after he kicks the opponent in the head (and, perhaps, took a swing at a ref?), you need to go.
I've been hopeful, I've been patient. But this game is showing that this was a terrible, terrible hire.
Who do you think Stanford could have hired that would have been better?
The Easter Bunny, William Shatner, Winnie the Pooh....
I'd go with Shatner. Maybe he could find some DBs who can move at warp 6...
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - cardcrimson - 11-02-2024
(11-02-2024, 01:52 PM)Mick Wrote:(11-02-2024, 12:53 PM)Row80Critic Wrote:(11-02-2024, 12:11 PM)chrisk Wrote:(11-02-2024, 12:04 PM)crackpot Wrote: Sorry, if you let your player stay on the field after he kicks the opponent in the head (and, perhaps, took a swing at a ref?), you need to go.
I've been hopeful, I've been patient. But this game is showing that this was a terrible, terrible hire.
Who do you think Stanford could have hired that would have been better?
The Easter Bunny, William Shatner, Winnie the Pooh....
I'd go with Shatner. Maybe he could find some DBs who can move at warp 6...
I'd be happy if they moved at impulse power. . . .
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - SkiBum80 - 11-02-2024
(11-02-2024, 12:53 PM)Row80Critic Wrote:I’d go w Easter Bunny(11-02-2024, 12:11 PM)chrisk Wrote:(11-02-2024, 12:04 PM)crackpot Wrote: Sorry, if you let your player stay on the field after he kicks the opponent in the head (and, perhaps, took a swing at a ref?), you need to go.
I've been hopeful, I've been patient. But this game is showing that this was a terrible, terrible hire.
Who do you think Stanford could have hired that would have been better?
The Easter Bunny, William Shatner, Winnie the Pooh....
At least he could decorate the eggs laid all over the field
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - GK3 - 11-02-2024
(11-02-2024, 01:14 PM)Goose Wrote:(11-02-2024, 12:04 PM)crackpot Wrote: Sorry, if you let your player stay on the field after he kicks the opponent in the head (and, perhaps, took a swing at a ref?), you need to go.I am guessing TT had other things on his mind at that point. It was up to the position coach to make sure he left the sideline. I understand the game can be frustrating. I also can understand that the NC State player may have said or done something quite inappropriate. However, losing your cool and kicking somebody in the head is off the charts unallowable. The player should be suspended indefinitely from the team at a minimum. I doubt there is a down side in doing so. I strongly suspect Bailey will be in the portal in any case. This is his Junior season. He only has one year left to get himself into the NFL. He isn't doing that at Stanford. He makes some great plays and some incredibly boneheaded ones too. He doesn't seem to be becoming a more disciplined player. He will fit well at USC.
Quote:I've been hopeful, I've been patient. But this game is showing that this was a terrible, terrible hire.Agree this was an execrable performance by the team. So far I have seen nothing from TT that indicates he can take the level of athletes he has recruited and make a competitive ACC team out of them. As others point out there are three games remaining to change that evaluation. It unfortunately seems unlikely Muir has somebody waiting in the wings to come in, take over and produce quick improvement. The player talent level just won't support that. Right now Stanford is a deeply unattractive program. IMO finding a replacement that would actually improve results will be at best a leap of faith.
Absolutely correct! It is so unattractive that recruiting is very unlikely to get better. With no current cap on NIL payments we simply can't be competitive. Why would some highly regarded young coach want to come to Stanford? He probably won't be paid what he could make elsewhere and his talent pool will be so small he can't see it. I can see us getting a good player here and there and then he will be gone the next year. At this point big time college football is all about the money. If you can't or won't compete in that game you are going to struggle.
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - Mudhead - 11-02-2024
(11-02-2024, 01:26 PM)lex24 Wrote: I’m sorry, but I think there is a fair amount of delusion on this board. The talent level is low. It will continue to be unless and until Stanford changes its approach to NIL and the portal. You aren’t going to get top talent without shelling out big bucks for it. You think, for example, Elway or McCaffrey would have gone to Stanford under today’s situation? And if so, stayed? Luck, maybe. But he’s a unicorn.Ditto. Well,said and right on target. New President and New Provost have to set the tone.
They are not going to get enough good players to compete unless they increase NIL and loosen up transfer rules to take full advantage of the portal.
Fire TT and hire who? I mean it’s not quite like the Chicago White Sox job. But close.
The program is on life support. I don’t think the Admin gives a damn. Therein lies the biggest problem. Not the HC.
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - GK3 - 11-02-2024
(11-02-2024, 02:01 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(11-02-2024, 01:52 PM)Mick Wrote:(11-02-2024, 12:53 PM)Row80Critic Wrote:(11-02-2024, 12:11 PM)chrisk Wrote:(11-02-2024, 12:04 PM)crackpot Wrote: Sorry, if you let your player stay on the field after he kicks the opponent in the head (and, perhaps, took a swing at a ref?), you need to go.
I've been hopeful, I've been patient. But this game is showing that this was a terrible, terrible hire.
Who do you think Stanford could have hired that would have been better?
The Easter Bunny, William Shatner, Winnie the Pooh....
I'd go with Shatner. Maybe he could find some DBs who can move at warp 6...
I'd be happy if they moved at impulse power. . . .
I am reaching the point that I am thinking about agreeing with a poster on another board who suggests we give up football entirely. Make more full scholarship available in other sports and then do our best to dominate in those sports.
I do believe we can remain competitive in Basketball, Men's and Women's and all other sports. As long as the current rules exist, with no cap on NIL payments then certain schools can field the best teams money can buy.
(11-02-2024, 02:38 PM)Mudhead Wrote:(11-02-2024, 01:26 PM)lex24 Wrote: I’m sorry, but I think there is a fair amount of delusion on this board. The talent level is low. It will continue to be unless and until Stanford changes its approach to NIL and the portal. You aren’t going to get top talent without shelling out big bucks for it. You think, for example, Elway or McCaffrey would have gone to Stanford under today’s situation? And if so, stayed? Luck, maybe. But he’s a unicorn.Ditto. Well,said and right on target. New President and New Provost have to set the tone.
They are not going to get enough good players to compete unless they increase NIL and loosen up transfer rules to take full advantage of the portal.
Fire TT and hire who? I mean it’s not quite like the Chicago White Sox job. But close.
The program is on life support. I don’t think the Admin gives a damn. Therein lies the biggest problem. Not the HC.
Agreed, but they can't continue to fiddle while Rome burns. If they don't want to change the status quo, then say so, if they want to go the other way, NOW is the time to say so, not next year.
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - martyup - 11-02-2024
Muir has failed in so many ways. He probably won't want fire TT at the end of the season because he hired him and it would reflect poorly on himself. However, I think our top players will force Muir to make a change because they will all enter the transfer portal. I'm thinking Elic, Bailey, Ford, Brown, Wright, and Mosley. This will empty the cupboard of one of the worst P4 teams in the country. Muir really won't have a choice.
The best case scenario would be for Muir to be fired and replaced before the end of the season and the new AD will lead the search for a new head football coach.
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - GK3 - 11-02-2024
(11-02-2024, 02:38 PM)Mudhead Wrote:(11-02-2024, 01:26 PM)lex24 Wrote: I’m sorry, but I think there is a fair amount of delusion on this board. The talent level is low. It will continue to be unless and until Stanford changes its approach to NIL and the portal. You aren’t going to get top talent without shelling out big bucks for it. You think, for example, Elway or McCaffrey would have gone to Stanford under today’s situation? And if so, stayed? Luck, maybe. But he’s a unicorn.Ditto. Well,said and right on target. New President and New Provost have to set the tone.
They are not going to get enough good players to compete unless they increase NIL and loosen up transfer rules to take full advantage of the portal.
Fire TT and hire who? I mean it’s not quite like the Chicago White Sox job. But close.
The program is on life support. I don’t think the Admin gives a damn. Therein lies the biggest problem. Not the HC.
Take a look at the Athletic Department Websites for many of our competitors in the ACC and tell me we have a good SID. We suck, big time. I will sign on to the draft Luck movement.
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - CardinalSagehen - 11-02-2024
(11-02-2024, 01:26 PM)lex24 Wrote: I’m sorry, but I think there is a fair amount of delusion on this board. The talent level is low. It will continue to be unless and until Stanford changes its approach to NIL and the portal. You aren’t going to get top talent without shelling out big bucks for it. You think, for example, Elway or McCaffrey would have gone to Stanford under today’s situation? And if so, stayed? Luck, maybe. But he’s a unicorn.
They are not going to get enough good players to compete unless they increase NIL and loosen up transfer rules to take full advantage of the portal.
Fire TT and hire who? I mean it’s not quite like the Chicago White Sox job. But close.
The program is on life support. I don’t think the Admin gives a damn. Therein lies the biggest problem. Not the HC.
This team doesn't have great talent. Nobody is expecting miracles. But there is a massive gulf between our current talent level and our current performance, and I don't think you fully appreciate the first-order and second-order implications of this.
After two years of player development and two off-seasons under the current AD and head coach, I believe the right questions are as follows:
1) Is this coach getting anywhere close to a reasonable degree of performance out of his team's talent?
No. And it isn't close. We have #42 talent and #104 performance (probably lower, after today). You can even discount the talent by 30-50 places due to the relative maturity of transfers, and it's still not acceptable. We are performing at the bottom of expectations for a Group of 5 team, and we're probably worse than a handful of FCS teams. Sagarin says we'd be the 4th best team in the Missouri Valley Conference! Our talent level certainly is not that low. Hypotheticaly, we could be 2-7 with very acceptable performance and signs of progress, but this team's performance is unacceptable.
2) Are this AD and this coach the right people to compete in the new world for NIL money and transfers?
No. Muir selected TT on the theory that he could establish a winning culture with middle-of-the-road high school recruits and utilize them in an innovative offensive system. Now TT himself admits that his original premise was wrong. TT does not have the charisma, coaching prowess, or proven P4 results to attract recruits or transfers. That's not the kind of coach or leader he is. If his original premise was wrong, then he was never the right guy for the job.
3) Is the current AD the right person to shift Stanford into the NIL world?
No, because he has resisted it for years. He is the symbol of resisting it. He who built the current castle should not be the one to tear it down. And TT is caught up in this, too, because he is not the right kind of forceful advocate for the program's needs vis a vis the rest of the institution and other non-revenue sports. Part of his job is to be the strongest advocate for football. He shouldn't win all of those internal battles, but he needs to provide the tension for his superiors to make the right decisions.
4) Will boosters line up to give money to this AD and this coach?
No, I think they're too smart for that. A new coach has a honeymoon period when boosters, recruits, transfers, and admins believe anything is possible. TT has unfortunately burned up his honeymoon period. The only way to effect change is with another change at the top to open another new chapter.
I continue to believe that Muir is the one who needs to go first, and the new AD should evaluate and select the new coach. If, as you say, nobody in the Administration fricking cares, then you're right that nothing will happen. But isn't it also irrational to pay an AD and a head football coach millions of dollars per year if this is the case?
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - martyup - 11-02-2024
Sage advice CSH.
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - qwerty49 - 11-02-2024
Just watched my recording of the game. I think the only team that cannot pass on Stanford is....Stanford.
If TT is such an offensive genius, why are our routes (all 3 of them, from what I can see) so predictable?
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - old spanish trail - 11-02-2024
(11-02-2024, 04:09 PM)qwerty49 Wrote: Just watched my recording of the game. I think the only team that cannot pass on Stanford is....Stanford.
If TT is such an offensive genius, why are our routes (all 3 of them, from what I can see) so predictable?
Exactly, Qwerty. Long to Elic, and maybe Mosely, short out routes, and flat to whomever. Where, at least, are a few short or mid level crossing routes. What did the great, tricky plays at Sac State look like? Did they just take advantage of crummy defenders?
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - lex24 - 11-02-2024
CardinalSagehen dateline='[url=tel:1730585074' Wrote: 1730585074[/url]']
lex24 dateline='[url=tel:1730579198' Wrote: 1730579198[/url]']
I’m sorry, but I think there is a fair amount of delusion on this board. The talent level is low. It will continue to be unless and until Stanford changes its approach to NIL and the portal. You aren’t going to get top talent without shelling out big bucks for it. You think, for example, Elway or McCaffrey would have gone to Stanford under today’s situation? And if so, stayed? Luck, maybe. But he’s a unicorn.
They are not going to get enough good players to compete unless they increase NIL and loosen up transfer rules to take full advantage of the portal.
Fire TT and hire who? I mean it’s not quite like the Chicago White Sox job. But close.
The program is on life support. I don’t think the Admin gives a damn. Therein lies the biggest problem. Not the HC.
This team doesn't have great talent. Nobody is expecting miracles. But there is a massive gulf between our current talent level and our current performance, and I don't think you fully appreciate the first-order and second-order implications of this.
After two years of player development and two off-seasons under the current AD and head coach, I believe the right questions are as follows:
1) Is this coach getting anywhere close to a reasonable degree of performance out of his team's talent?
No. And it isn't close. We have #42 talent and #104 performance (probably lower, after today). You can even discount the talent by 30-50 places due to the relative maturity of transfers, and it's still not acceptable. We are performing at the bottom of expectations for a Group of 5 team, and we're probably worse than a handful of FCS teams. Sagarin says we'd be the 4th best team in the Missouri Valley Conference! Our talent level certainly is not that low. Hypotheticaly, we could be 2-7 with very acceptable performance and signs of progress, but this team's performance is unacceptable.
2) Are this AD and this coach the right people to compete in the new world for NIL money and transfers?
No. Muir selected TT on the theory that he could establish a winning culture with middle-of-the-road high school recruits and utilize them in an innovative offensive system. Now TT himself admits that his original premise was wrong. TT does not have the charisma, coaching prowess, or proven P4 results to attract recruits or transfers. That's not the kind of coach or leader he is. If his original premise was wrong, then he was never the right guy for the job.
3) Is the current AD the right person to shift Stanford into the NIL world?
No, because he has resisted it for years. He is the symbol of resisting it. He who built the current castle should not be the one to tear it down. And TT is caught up in this, too, because he is not the right kind of forceful advocate for the program's needs vis a vis the rest of the institution and other non-revenue sports. Part of his job is to be the strongest advocate for football. He shouldn't win all of those internal battles, but he needs to provide the tension for his superiors to make the right decisions.
4) Will boosters line up to give money to this AD and this coach?
No, I think they're too smart for that. A new coach has a honeymoon period when boosters, recruits, transfers, and admins believe anything is possible. TT has unfortunately burned up his honeymoon period. The only way to effect change is with another change at the top to open another new chapter.
I continue to believe that Muir is the one who needs to go first, and the new AD should evaluate and select the new coach. If, as you say, nobody in the Administration fricking cares, then you're right that nothing will happen. But isn't it also irrational to pay an AD and a head football coach millions of dollars per year if this is the case?
Frankly, I don’t think there is much disagreement between us. No matter how it happens, Stanford has to step up with NIL and address changes relative to the portal. . If that means dumping TT and Muir, so be it. But imo the change in administrative philosophy need come first. Otherwise, whomever is the next coach will fail as well.
Perhaps Bob Bowlsby is tired by being the Big 12 Commish.
RE: FB -- NC State Game Thread - Goose - 11-02-2024
(11-02-2024, 04:59 PM)old spanish trail Wrote:No, they took advantage of having players that could execute those tricky plays. Daniels is a limited passer. He is not very accurate in general. He throws some passes better than others, so those are the routes you see. Lamson is even more limited as a passer. Part of this is due to Daniels getting all the reps with the 1s, but last year TT made the determination that Daniels was a better passer. That said, Daniels also doesn't do a great job of reading the field.(11-02-2024, 04:09 PM)qwerty49 Wrote: Just watched my recording of the game. I think the only team that cannot pass on Stanford is....Stanford.
If TT is such an offensive genius, why are our routes (all 3 of them, from what I can see) so predictable?
Exactly, Qwerty. Long to Elic, and maybe Mosely, short out routes, and flat to whomever. Where, at least, are a few short or mid level crossing routes. What did the great, tricky plays at Sac State look like? Did they just take advantage of crummy defenders?
Our receivers are also limited. They seldom get lots of separation so every throw has to be in a tight window. Even Elic ends up using his superior leaping ability to catch the 50/50 ball a lot of the time. On top of that our pass protection is generally poor so that limits the patterns that can be run. These deficiencies cascade to restrict what plays TT can call with any expectation our offense can actually execute them successfully. For instance Daniels may not read the field well because he so seldom has time to do so that he gets little practice. TT can only call what remains when these deficiencies are stacked end to end. It doesn't leave much, and even what is left is far from a sure thing.