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RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Goose - 09-29-2023
(09-29-2023, 05:57 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: So unbelievably weak and pathetic to fire Kapler 3 games before the season ends.Strategy to win the last three games. Fire up the team to support their outgoing manager!
Just F-you Farhan. If he needs to go, YOU need to go!
Or, alternatively, fix the blame on somebody early on to hopefully avoid the blame being fixed upon you!
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - cardcrimson - 09-29-2023
(09-29-2023, 05:57 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: So unbelievably weak and pathetic to fire Kapler 3 games before the season ends.
Just F-you Farhan. If he needs to go, YOU need to go!
Settle down O. Weren't you just openly celebrating that the Giants were eliminated from the playoffs? What did you expect? The team was in decent shape a month ago and fell apart. There have been a multitude of stories leaked from the clubhouse that aren't good. Coconuts has lost the team. As Giants pointed out, pinch hitting for Crawford was the last straw. He had to go. Would I have waited three days, probably. But the timing certainly sends a message, doesn't it?
I thought a month ago, you gave up on the season and suggested playing the rookies and youngsters. Who picked those guys up? Who built the farm hands that you thought warranted a shot at the Bigs? Farhan did. The jury is still out on Farhan, but with the stable of young guys you were so enamored with, I think he gets another year. After all, his contract is up the end of next season.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - BobK - 09-29-2023
Good move by Farham. Of just upset he didn’t get to fire coconut guy
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - qwerty49 - 09-29-2023
Is Joc (Pusoy-Boy) sitting on a guaranteed contract?
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 09-29-2023
(09-29-2023, 04:41 PM)Giants Wrote: https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/free-agents/san-diego-padres/
Well, there aren’t any position players worth pursuing. Snell would be a nice addition but Zaidi has a history of not signing free agent pitchers to big contracts.
There was talk that Kapler poisoned the 2024 pitcher free agent market with his oddball use of the pitchers, the refusal to use regular starters (just two, really), the insistence that starters essentially platoon. No one wanted that.
Also read that a player was being interviewed by a reporter (prob. TK), and in response to the question "has Kapler lost the locker room?" the player, not for attribution said "He can't lose something he never had." Then, the player realizing the starkness of the comment tried to walk it back.
So...I know everyone wanted to get rid of Kapler. Just two observations:
1) Farhan's the one who got the underperforming players. He compiled this team. The 2021 Manager of the Year did -- I think -- what he could with them.
2) For a manager that's "lost the locker room" and "poisoned the pitching free agent market", it's awfully interesting that the SF Giants are third in all of MLB in FIP (Fielding Independent Pitching) at 3.91; 11th in WHIP and 12th in ERA...but 24th in OPS. They can't hit. They can't run. They can't field. Whoever put this team together is a mess...but he still has a job. The manager doesn't.
(09-29-2023, 10:18 PM)qwerty49 Wrote: Is Joc (Pusoy-Boy) sitting on a guaranteed contract?
He's on a one year contract, $19.65 mms., if memory serves. Pretty good for the most out-of-shape major leaguer I've ever seen.
Next year, I'm hoping the Giants will lose Conforto ($18 mms.), Manaea ($12.5 mms.), Pederson ($19.650 mms.), Crawford ($16 mms.), and maybe Cobb ($10 mms.). That's a potential savings of $75.650 million. Barely enough to afford Ohtani and maybe Bellinger... ;)
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 09-29-2023
From Andrew Baggerly…
“Being open and flexible to different ideas, different perspectives, is something I’m going to have to take going forward,” said Zaidi, meeting with reporters in the Giants dugout shortly after the club announced Kapler’sl firing in a news release.
Those might have been the most important words uttered at Third and King on Friday afternoon. Things will be different going forward, whether that means more lineup continuity or longer-term contracts or letting a player hit for himself after he homered in his previous at-bat.
—
No comment necessary. I think that says it all.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 09-30-2023
The Giants are a clown show.
All season: Farhan and Gabe are returning
Tuesday: Logan Webb calls out the team culture
Thursday: Farhan goes on radio and backs down from his "Gabe is returning mantra"
Friday: Gabe is fired, Farhan makes comments that make clear it wasn't his idea to fire Gabe while claiming it was his decision, and then he says he needs to be open to different ideas.
As far as we know: Let's leave the guy in charge of all baseball decisions who brought us here.
Now let's bring in a manager who is on a short leash, because the guy who hires him can easily be removed next year, and be replaced by someone who won't have any allegiance to the guy???
Let's be clear, it's not just the issue of maybe being employed a year for potential manager candidates, it's that you have to uproot and move your family and home too. These decisions aren't made with one year horizons in mind.
The Giants are toxic to free agents right now. They are not exactly a well-oiled machine, and everything about them is mediocre. They are a middling team by every meaningful measure, including into the farm system.
I've asked this before, I'll ask it again. What example is there of a coach/manager/GM getting a "vote of confidence" after having a poor record of performance that required such a statement, and then a turnaround happening? The only example I can think of is Brian Kelly at Notre Dame. Every other coach or GM who has ever been in the position Farhan finds himself in, has ultimately been replaced in short order because they never improved their performance.
The Giants don't know who they are or what they want to be. At least if you were all-in on Farhan, fans could disagree with and not like him or Gabe, but at least you know who is in charge, the Giants are hell bent on winning based on marginal matchup percentages, and he's being given autonomy to do what he wants so he can be fairly judged. Keeping someone in their job with higher ups telling them to do it differently, is just executive incompetence of the highest order. No well run organization does this.
I've asked this about Stanford. Who the F is in charge? The Giants' 30 owners are like Stanford's 30 Board members. It's just a totally incompetent and terrible organization decision making structure. No wonder they are both now flailing.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 09-30-2023
OutsiderFan Wrote:The Giants are a clown show.Nonsense.
All season: Farhan and Gabe are returning
Tuesday: Logan Webb calls out the team culture
Thursday: Farhan goes on radio and backs down from his "Gabe is returning mantra"
Friday: Gabe is fired, Farhan makes comments that make clear it wasn't his idea to fire Gabe while claiming it was his decision, and then he says he needs to be open to different ideas.
As far as we know: Let's leave the guy in charge of all baseball decisions who brought us here.
Now let's bring in a manager who is on a short leash, because the guy who hires him can easily be removed next year, and be replaced by someone who won't have any allegiance to the guy???
Let's be clear, it's not just the issue of maybe being employed a year for potential manager candidates, it's that you have to uproot and move your family and home too. These decisions aren't made with one year horizons in mind.
The Giants are toxic to free agents right now. They are not exactly a well-oiled machine, and everything about them is mediocre. They are a middling team by every meaningful measure, including into the farm system.
I've asked this before, I'll ask it again. What example is there of a coach/manager/GM getting a "vote of confidence" after having a poor record of performance that required such a statement, and then a turnaround happening? The only example I can think of is Brian Kelly at Notre Dame. Every other coach or GM who has ever been in the position Farhan finds himself in, has ultimately been replaced in short order because they never improved their performance.
The Giants don't know who they are or what they want to be. At least if you were all-in on Farhan, fans could disagree with and not like him or Gabe, but at least you know who is in charge, the Giants are hell bent on winning based on marginal matchup percentages, and he's being given autonomy to do what he wants so he can be fairly judged. Keeping someone in their job with higher ups telling them to do it differently, is just executive incompetence of the highest order. No well run organization does this.
I've asked this about Stanford. Who the F is in charge? The Giants' 30 owners are like Stanford's 30 Board members. It's just a totally incompetent and terrible organization decision making structure. No wonder they are both now flailing.
The “terrible structure “ is no different than the one that brought home 3 WS. They have an Ownership Group. LLC, I believe. It has a managing partner/Chairman, currently Greg Johnson. Johnson family owns 27%. The “principal owners”. Not sure, of course, how the operating agreement reads, but I suspect the Chair can be voted out by some number of the shares held. Bill Newcom was essentially pushed out. The Chair speaks for the group.
Zaidi is in charge from a player operations perspective . He made that clear. He and Kapler were in lockstep. Things devolved. You not only had players suggesting issues in the Clubhouse (same thing happened to Kapler in Philly) you also saw Zaidi reference that they played worst when it mattered most. The AZ series being a great example. (I watched that series. Did you? The difference in “energy” was palpable. Giants slept walked through their most important series of the year.)
Zaidi obviously has been told (and understands) ) that they need to tweak the “process” some. Good. Had to happen. Doesn’t mean Zaidi is going to throw out analytics etc. Does mean that they manager they hire will not be as analytics based. Someone who can push back some. More of a blend if you will.
The Giants are a storied franchise, playing in a beautiful park in a great City. They by no means are or will be “toxic” to FA’s. They signed 5 last year. And had Correa in the fold.The bigger question is whether the farm system, which is appreciably better now than when FZ took over, develop not just serviceable ML players, but “stars”. That is the question upon which Zaidis job hinges.
As for the manager, that’s easy. He’s not going to sign a one-year deal. No one does that. I suspect at least 3. So, problem solved.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 09-30-2023
There have been 38 managers in Giants franchise history. Ranked by Giants winning percentage, the first three managed in the 19th century. The fourth was John McGraw. The fifth was another 19th century manager. The next two (Alvin Dark, Herman Franks) had Willie Mays, Willie McCovey, Orlando Cepeda, Harvey Kuenn, Jim Ray Hart, the Alou brothers, Juan Marichal, Mike McCormick, Gaylord Perry, Sanford, O'Dell, Pierce and Bolin. NO ONE on the current Giants roster can hold a candle to those players.
#8 was Bill Terry, managed in the 1930s. He had himself, Mel Ott, Carl Hubbell, Freddie Lindstrom, Travis Jackson. FIVE Hall of Famers. See any Hall of Famers on this year's squad? Next year's squad? The 2021 squad that won 107 games? Maybe Buster Posey, but frankly, I think Posey ends up like Bill Freehan...should be in, but he'll be out. That doesn't include pitchers like Castleman (15-6), Hal Schumacher (19-9). Doesn't include Jo-Jo Moore, six time All Star.
#9 was Leo Durocher, who had Mays, Johnny Mize, Sid Gordon, Whitey Lockman, Stanky, Dark, Bobby Thompson, Hank Thompson, Monte Irvin, Don Mueller, Wes Westrum, Sal Maglie, Larry Jansen. Some of those were Hall of Famers, ALL of them were multiple-year All Stars. See any multiple-year All Stars on this team? Maybe Bailey...but not yet.
#10 is Kapler.
Tenth best winning percentage among the 38 Giants managers. I can only imagine what it would have been if Posey had sucked it up and played during the COVID season, the season that the Giants finished one game out of the playoffs when they were forced to play Joey Bart and Chadwick Tromp at catcher. Kapler had a better winning percentage for the Giants than Felipe Alou, Roger Craig, Bruce Bochy, Dusty Baker and the rest. And let's not forget that Kapler came in after St. Bruce of Bochy had coached the team to consecutive 64-98, 73-89 and 77-85 records the three years prior to Kapler's arrival.
Rank on Farhan all you want. He put together a team of mediocre ballplayers. But they fired the wrong guy. And now some (Tim Kawakami, among others) want to replace Kapler (career winning percentage .526, SF Giants winning percentage .543) with Bob Melvin (career winning percentage .515). Melvin, who couldn't win with EIGHT multiple-year all-stars Gary Sanchez, Xander Bogaerts, Jake Cronenworth, Manny Machado, Juan Soto, Yu Darvish, Josh Hader and Matt Carpenter. And let's not forget Fernando Tatis (just one all star team, but finished 3rd and 4th in separate year MVP votes), Blake Snell (just one all star team but Cy Young winner and has TWICE led the NL in ERA, including this year), Joe Musgrove (three consecutive winning seasons and an All Star), Michael Wacha (24-6 last two seasons and a former all star, 87-54 career record) and Trent Grisham (2x Gold Glove CF). And eight of the Padres' nine starters are age 30 or younger.
And people think BOB MELVIN is the answer? Ho. Ho. Ho. It is to laugh.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - cardcrimson - 09-30-2023
(09-30-2023, 08:51 AM)lex24 Wrote: Nonsense.
The “terrible structure “ is no different than the one that brought home 3 WS. They have an Ownership Group. LLC, I believe. It has a managing partner/Chairman, currently Greg Johnson. Johnson family owns 27%. The “principal owners”. Not sure, of course, how the operating agreement reads, but I suspect the Chair can be voted out by some number of the shares held. Bill Newcom was essentially pushed out. The Chair speaks for the group.
Zaidi is in charge from a player operations perspective . He made that clear. He and Kapler were in lockstep. Things devolved. You not only had players suggesting issues in the Clubhouse (same thing happened to Kapler in Philly) you also saw Zaidi reference that they played worst when it mattered most. The AZ series being a great example. (I watched that series. Did you? The difference in “energy” was palpable. Giants slept walked through their most important series of the year.)
Zaidi obviously has been told (and understands) ) that they need to tweak the “process” some. Good. Had to happen. Doesn’t mean Zaidi is going to throw out analytics etc. Does mean that they manager they hire will not be as analytics based. Someone who can push back some. More of a blend if you will.
The Giants are a storied franchise, playing in a beautiful park in a once great City. They by no means are or will be “toxic” to FA’s. They signed 5 last year. And had Correa in the fold.The bigger question is whether the farm system, which is appreciably better now than when FZ took over, develop not just serviceable ML players, but “stars”. That is the question upon which Zaidis job hinges.
As for the manager, that’s easy. He’s not going to sign a one-year deal. No one does that. I suspect at least 3. So, problem solved.
Agree completely, though I added a word.
The farm system is indeed a whole lot better than it was. That's on Farhan.
On July 18th, the Giants were 13 games over .500 and only a game and a half back of first. Today, they are four games under .500, have gone 2 and 8 over the last 10 and are 21 games back of first. Against a pretty easy schedule in September, they have gone 8-18. Pretty much the same players, with the addition of a few rookies who have actually contributed. The free fall is on Kapler.
The bright spot of the season is the rookies and perhaps they have saved Farhan's job, for now.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 09-30-2023
Mick Wrote:There have been 38 managers in Giants franchise history. Ranked by Giants winning percentage, the first three managed in the 19th century. The fourth was John McGraw. The fifth was another 19th century manager. The next two (Alvin Dark, Herman Franks) had Willie Mays, Willie McCovey, Orlando Cepeda, Harvey Kuenn, Jim Ray Hart, the Alou brothers, Juan Marichal, Mike McCormick, Gaylord Perry, Sanford, O'Dell, Pierce and Bolin. NO ONE on the current Giants roster can hold a candle to those players.I’m one of those who wants to see Melvin at the helm. Please, tell he why I’m wrong. Besides the Padres issues this year.
#8 was Bill Terry, managed in the 1930s. He had himself, Mel Ott, Carl Hubbell, Freddie Lindstrom, Travis Jackson. FIVE Hall of Famers. See any Hall of Famers on this year's squad? Next year's squad? The 2021 squad that won 107 games? Maybe Buster Posey, but frankly, I think Posey ends up like Bill Freehan...should be in, but he'll be out. That doesn't include pitchers like Castleman (15-6), Hal Schumacher (19-9). Doesn't include Jo-Jo Moore, six time All Star.
#9 was Leo Durocher, who had Mays, Johnny Mize, Sid Gordon, Whitey Lockman, Stanky, Dark, Bobby Thompson, Hank Thompson, Monte Irvin, Don Mueller, Wes Westrum, Sal Maglie, Larry Jansen. Some of those were Hall of Famers, ALL of them were multiple-year All Stars. See any multiple-year All Stars on this team? Maybe Bailey...but not yet.
#10 is Kapler.
Tenth best winning percentage among the 38 Giants managers. I can only imagine what it would have been if Posey had sucked it up and played during the COVID season, the season that the Giants finished one game out of the playoffs when they were forced to play Joey Bart and Chadwick Tromp at catcher. Kapler had a better winning percentage for the Giants than Felipe Alou, Roger Craig, Bruce Bochy, Dusty Baker and the rest. And let's not forget that Kapler came in after St. Bruce of Bochy had coached the team to consecutive 64-98, 73-89 and 77-85 records the three years prior to Kapler's arrival.
Rank on Farhan all you want. He put together a team of mediocre ballplayers. But they fired the wrong guy. And now some (Tim Kawakami, among others) want to replace Kapler (career winning percentage .526, SF Giants winning percentage .543) with Bob Melvin (career winning percentage .515). Melvin, who couldn't win with EIGHT multiple-year all-stars Gary Sanchez, Xander Bogaerts, Jake Cronenworth, Manny Machado, Juan Soto, Yu Darvish, Josh Hader and Matt Carpenter. And let's not forget Fernando Tatis (just one all star team, but finished 3rd and 4th in separate year MVP votes), Blake Snell (just one all star team but Cy Young winner and has TWICE led the NL in ERA, including this year), Joe Musgrove (three consecutive winning seasons and an All Star), Michael Wacha (24-6 last two seasons and a former all star, 87-54 career record) and Trent Grisham (2x Gold Glove CF). And eight of the Padres' nine starters are age 30 or younger.
And people think BOB MELVIN is the answer? Ho. Ho. Ho. It is to laugh.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 09-30-2023
(09-30-2023, 05:26 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: The Giants are toxic to free agents right now. They are not exactly a well-oiled machine, and everything about them is mediocre. They are a middling team by every meaningful measure, including into the farm system.
When Farhan came in, all of the Giants' minor league teams except one had finished last in their leagues the prior year.
This year?
AAA Sacto finished last in their division and 7th of 10 teams in the PCL.
AA Richmond finished 2nd in their division of six, fifth overall by a game in the Eastern League. They won their division in the 2nd half.
A Eugene finished third of six teams in the Northwest League.
A San Jose Giants finished fifth of eight California League teams.
Giants Black finished third in their division of six, and Giants Orange finished fourth in their division of six in the Arizona Complex Rookie League. Giants Black were fourth overall of 18 teams, so not too bad. Giants Orange were tied for 9th of 18.
Not much improvement. Doesn't bode well for the future.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 09-30-2023
(09-30-2023, 08:51 AM)lex24 Wrote:OutsiderFan Wrote:The Giants are a clown show.Nonsense.
All season: Farhan and Gabe are returning
Tuesday: Logan Webb calls out the team culture
Thursday: Farhan goes on radio and backs down from his "Gabe is returning mantra"
Friday: Gabe is fired, Farhan makes comments that make clear it wasn't his idea to fire Gabe while claiming it was his decision, and then he says he needs to be open to different ideas.
As far as we know: Let's leave the guy in charge of all baseball decisions who brought us here.
Now let's bring in a manager who is on a short leash, because the guy who hires him can easily be removed next year, and be replaced by someone who won't have any allegiance to the guy???
Let's be clear, it's not just the issue of maybe being employed a year for potential manager candidates, it's that you have to uproot and move your family and home too. These decisions aren't made with one year horizons in mind.
The Giants are toxic to free agents right now. They are not exactly a well-oiled machine, and everything about them is mediocre. They are a middling team by every meaningful measure, including into the farm system.
I've asked this before, I'll ask it again. What example is there of a coach/manager/GM getting a "vote of confidence" after having a poor record of performance that required such a statement, and then a turnaround happening? The only example I can think of is Brian Kelly at Notre Dame. Every other coach or GM who has ever been in the position Farhan finds himself in, has ultimately been replaced in short order because they never improved their performance.
The Giants don't know who they are or what they want to be. At least if you were all-in on Farhan, fans could disagree with and not like him or Gabe, but at least you know who is in charge, the Giants are hell bent on winning based on marginal matchup percentages, and he's being given autonomy to do what he wants so he can be fairly judged. Keeping someone in their job with higher ups telling them to do it differently, is just executive incompetence of the highest order. No well run organization does this.
I've asked this about Stanford. Who the F is in charge? The Giants' 30 owners are like Stanford's 30 Board members. It's just a totally incompetent and terrible organization decision making structure. No wonder they are both now flailing.
The “terrible structure “ is no different than the one that brought home 3 WS. They have an Ownership Group. LLC, I believe. It has a managing partner/Chairman, currently Greg Johnson. Johnson family owns 27%. The “principal owners”. Not sure, of course, how the operating agreement reads, but I suspect the Chair can be voted out by some number of the shares held. Bill Newcom was essentially pushed out. The Chair speaks for the group.
Zaidi is in charge from a player operations perspective . He made that clear. He and Kapler were in lockstep. Things devolved. You not only had players suggesting issues in the Clubhouse (same thing happened to Kapler in Philly) you also saw Zaidi reference that they played worst when it mattered most. The AZ series being a great example. (I watched that series. Did you? The difference in “energy” was palpable. Giants slept walked through their most important series of the year.)
Zaidi obviously has been told (and understands) ) that they need to tweak the “process” some. Good. Had to happen. Doesn’t mean Zaidi is going to throw out analytics etc. Does mean that they manager they hire will not be as analytics based. Someone who can push back some. More of a blend if you will.
The Giants are a storied franchise, playing in a beautiful park in a great City. They by no means are or will be “toxic” to FA’s. They signed 5 last year. And had Correa in the fold.The bigger question is whether the farm system, which is appreciably better now than when FZ took over, develop not just serviceable ML players, but “stars”. That is the question upon which Zaidis job hinges.
As for the manager, that’s easy. He’s not going to sign a one-year deal. No one does that. I suspect at least 3. So, problem solved.
Something obviously changed within the ownership group, and it was probably priorities. You can't claim it's the same ownership as when they won 3 WS, and expect me to think that matters even a little bit, when I know the performance of the team since 2014.
As for the Arizona series, Arizona has better players who are more athletic. I didn't see the series, just the MLB highlights and reports, that demonstrated them running circles around the Giants on the bases. But I threw my chips down and said the Giants would basically fall out of contention in August, and they did. This "collapse" is not some revelation. You could see it coming from July if you weren't looking at things through orange and black lenses.
Yes, the Giants are toxic to Free Agents, and it's not just me saying it. I don't care if they signed 5 free agents last year. Of course they are going to sign some. I mean where were Pederson, Stripling, Conforto, Manea, and Haniger gonna get paid a buttload of money? And Correa is still a horrible millstone around their neck. They almost signed a guy to a payroll crushing deal with a bad health outlook. Never should have even made him an offer if they ended up having to pull the plug on him as ham-fistedly as they did. And let's not get started with the Aaron Judge nonsense. I'm with Larry Larry Krueger, if anyone mentions "Ohtani" and Giants, they should be smacked. The Giants are not willing to spend the money it takes to sign the best free agents. Period. Yet Giants apologists insists "other reasons" are why they always miss on the guys they claim they are pursuing. I have news for you. The Giants pursue these guys to make suckers think they really care about winning. If they really did care, they would pay what it takes to win. This just in: MLB Free Agents sign the biggest contracts they can get. The Giants didn't offer Judge enough to land him, because they didn't get him.
The apologists for the Giants should recognize how outnumbered they are. Or maybe you can illustrate this brilliant direction they are headed in and make a compelling case for why the guys they have basically identified as the problem are let go, and allowed to continue on.
Stop it with this farm system stuff. Patrick Bailey has a .7 WAR. Whooptee freaking do. You know has a 2.5 WAR? Mauricio Dubon, who wasn't good enough for the Giants. Every other hyped prospect has failed to live up to anything close to their hype. Matos is OK, but he's a -.5 WAR player and not a difference maker. The only one who hasn't solidified himself as yet another disappointment is Marco Luciano, and maybe Harrison. But they are never allowed to play either, so who knows what they will be if they actually got MLB ABs. But at this point, why should I have any belief he's gonna be a .800+ OPS guy at this point?
Name one player that Farhan has turned into a stalwart winning player for the Giants over his tenure. Easily the best player developed over his time has been Logan Webb, but Webb wasn't drafted by him.
The Orioles lost 110 games two years ago, but those same players playing together just won 100 games. and the toughest division in MLB. The Giants won 107 games two years ago and have what, exactly? A fired manager, a top personnel executive who has to be told to do his job better, the 17th best rookies in MLB, no star players and an ownership saying it won't spend into the luxury tax.
Nothing offered in defense of the Giants passes the smell test.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - cardcrimson - 09-30-2023
(09-30-2023, 10:11 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Something obviously changed within the ownership group, and it was probably priorities. You can't claim it's the same ownership as when they won 3 WS, and expect me to think that matters even a little bit, when I know the performance of the team since 2014.
As for the Arizona series, Arizona has better players who are more athletic. I didn't see the series, just the MLB highlights and reports, that demonstrated them running circles around the Giants on the bases. But I threw my chips down and said the Giants would basically fall out of contention in August, and they did. This "collapse" is not some revelation. You could see it coming from July if you weren't looking at things through orange and black lenses.
Yes, the Giants are toxic to Free Agents, and it's not just me saying it. I don't care if they signed 5 free agents last year. Of course they are going to sign some. I mean where were Pederson, Stripling, Conforto, Manea, and Haniger gonna get paid a buttload of money? And Correa is still a horrible millstone around their neck. They almost signed a guy to a payroll crushing deal with a bad health outlook. Never should have even made him an offer if they ended up having to pull the plug on him as ham-fistedly as they did. And let's not get started with the Aaron Judge nonsense. I'm with Larry Larry Krueger, if anyone mentions "Ohtani" and Giants, they should be smacked. The Giants are not willing to spend the money it takes to sign the best free agents. Period. Yet Giants apologists insists "other reasons" are why they always miss on the guys they claim they are pursuing. I have news for you. The Giants pursue these guys to make suckers think they really care about winning. If they really did care, they would pay what it takes to win. This just in: MLB Free Agents sign the biggest contracts they can get. The Giants didn't offer Judge enough to land him, because they didn't get him.
The apologists for the Giants should recognize how outnumbered they are. Or maybe you can illustrate this brilliant direction they are headed in and make a compelling case for why the guys they have basically identified as the problem are let go, and allowed to continue on.
Stop it with this farm system stuff. Patrick Bailey has a .7 WAR. Whooptee freaking do. You know has a 2.5 WAR? Mauricio Dubon, who wasn't good enough for the Giants. Every other hyped prospect has failed to live up to anything close to their hype. Matos is OK, but he's a -.5 WAR player and not a difference maker. The only one who hasn't solidified himself as yet another disappointment is Marco Luciano, and maybe Harrison. But they are never allowed to play either, so who knows what they will be if they actually got MLB ABs. But at this point, why should I have any belief he's gonna be a .800+ OPS guy at this point?
Name one player that Farhan has turned into a stalwart winning player for the Giants over his tenure. Easily the best player developed over his time has been Logan Webb, but Webb wasn't drafted by him.
The Orioles lost 110 games two years ago, but those same players playing together just won 100 games. and the toughest division in MLB. The Giants won 107 games two years ago and have what, exactly? A fired manager, a top personnel executive who has to be told to do his job better, the 17th best rookies in MLB, no star players and an ownership saying it won't spend into the luxury tax.
Nothing offered in defense of the Giants passes the smell test.
Who's a Giants apologist? Who's defending them? Name one here that is. Can you? Or just more hyperbole.
Plenty of blame to go around for a couple of average seasons. New aged renaissance men, or those who proclaim themselves to be, grate at me. Apparently they grate on baseball players, as well, as Kapler lost the clubhouse in Philly, and apparently never had it here. Coaches and managers get the most out of their players. Has anyone said that about Kapler the last two years?
Regarding the farm system, wasn't someone on this site singing the praises of Matos and how he's the spark of the Giants offense and lamented his being sent down for a couple of days? You're now saying that he's only okay and not a difference maker. How do you square the two? Bailey, Luciano, Harrison (who was handled terribly by Kapler), Schmitt, Matos all have shown promise at this level. Not a ton of consistency yet, but perhaps that's on the staff. Still others with a lot of talent that are developing. Time will tell.
"Name one player that Farhan has turned into a stalwart winning player for the Giants over his tenure" is laughable. You do know that developing players is not in his job description. Do you want Farhan in the cages or the bullpen teaching? That's the responsibility of the coaching staff. IIRC, Kapler brought in a bunch of young analytical coaches on his staff. Doesn't appear that they have worked out. What's Farhan's responsibility? To replace a staff that isn't working.
The ownership went big on Judge and Correa, offered more to the first, and smartly bailed on the second. Why is that nonsense? I think you were incredibly critical of the ownership for the Correa fiasco at the time, and now calling ham-fisted. Why? How could management have known about his ankle--there are these pesky little HIPAA laws and all. They were willing to spend, but it didn't work out last year.
I'm not a fan of Farhan and all the metric crap, but at this point in time, he's making the right decisions and the right statements. The farm system has some promise. I'm not close enough to know if he should stay (probably not), but the ship is listing and he's doing something pretty early on, unlike the guy in Palo Alto.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 09-30-2023
Wow! The wheels have come off the wagon.
I would expect OF to completely lose his mind, repeating the same old false bromides. However, Mick, one of the most level-headed observers here, has caught a bad case of Melvinitis.
In fact, at this point the Giants can only dream of getting Melvin under contract. If San Diego were to let him go, it shouldn’t take long for SF to secure his services much as they did when SD foolishly dismissed Bochy many years ago.
Melvin is highly respected manager with nineteen years of experience. He is a perfect blend of old school and new age. His track record is strong enough to allow him to stand up to Zaidi (something that is desperately needed in the Giants hierarchy - someone who will tell FZ when he is wrong). He is a local guy (born in Palo Alto, graduated from Cal) who clearly understands the Bay Area and the role the franchise plays within our “bubble”.
I have no doubt whatsoever that he would be very successful with the Giants.
If Melvin is not available, I still have confidence the search will yield a good candidate. Heck, Buster Posey, as a member of the Executive Committee, will be involved in the process. How could it go wrong?
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 09-30-2023
This Giants “apologist” predicted 78 wins.
OF, you ignore quite a bit.
“Diamonds in the rough” - Yaz, Estrada. Neither are stars. Both good players.
Flores. Another solid pick up. Cobb, good FA signing. Pederson, yes ‘22. No, 23.
Farm system - Question - is it your expectation that when a rookie is called up he immediately produces and moves ahead on a straight line progression? Doesn’t happen often. I’ll go down the line with who they called up. Regulars first:
Sabol. Rule 5. Athletic. Good power. Forced to play a position he’s ill suited for. 13 HRs. Showed promise. And after this year he’ll have three options. Needs to improve contact. Especially on breaking stuff.
Schmitt. Plus fielder. Bat somewhat of a question. Needs to improve approach. Handles inside fastball. Struggles with breaking stuff. Showed enough to be a nice part of a roster. Star? Doubtful. But will contribute
Luciano. Flashes of power that is his exciting feature. He’s 22. Strong. Good athlete. I question if SS is his ultimate position. He’s going to be a major league player. For many years. Question is if he can be a “star”
Matos. Majors leap at 21-22. This is a guy that people were questioning in May ‘22. Good bat to ball skills. Decent speed. Needs to get stronger.
Fitzgerald. Another guy that made big leap. Versatile. Good power. Excellent speed. Question is contact. If he can improve that (a big if) he could be a very very good player.
Wisely. Good speed. Versatile. 25-26 roster guy. Potential as a utility infielder. Another gut that needs to work on contact.
Meckler. An outlier. Excellent speed. Made tremendous leap in ‘23. Good contact skills. Raw. A potential high average/OBP speed guy.
Villar. AAAA. Enough said.
Bart. Personally, I think Giants blew this one. I expect him to be traded.
Ramos. See, Bart.
Pitchers in next post
Harrison. Showed why he’s a No 1 prospect. Needs better command within the zone. 22. A legit shot at being no 3 starter next year. And eventually an ace,
Winn. Easy 96 with a nasty split. If he develops a plus slider, he’s going to be very good. Although, he may be a trade chip.
Beck - Solid first year. I think he was impacted but the up and down BS. Zaidi got him in a trade for Mark Melancon. Which, considering it was a salary dump is impressive.
BTW- another steal of a trade was Davis and three pitchers Seymour, Zwack and Szarpucki. The latter got hurt. But both Seymour and Zwack have a shot - especially Seymour. Davis slumped. Badly. But he’s a more than serviceable mlb player. Getting him straight up for Ruf. would have been a steal.
Oh, and I forgot Wade. I think they got him for Sam Dyson…..EDIT - Wrong. It was for Shaun Anderson. A steal nonetheless.
Pitchers to look for next year - Mason Black and Carson Whisenhunt.
Zaidi has done an excellent job adding depth to a farm system that was dead last in MLB when he took over. Whether that system produces mote than just marginal pieces is to be seen. And ultimately will determine his fate.
As to future FA’s - they will come. The Giants might have to pay a “ballpark premium “ for a hitter. Especially a left handed hitter. But that can be done. After all, they had Correa up in the fold.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 09-30-2023
There are no apologists at this site. There are fans who want to see SF win but are realistic enough to realize there are significant organizational issues. Taking a positive approach, I might suggest this season might have been what was badly needed - a wake-up call to Zaidi that the smartest guy in the room doesn’t always have all the answers. I hope he follows through on his commitment to hire a manager who will not be just a yes man but rather a person who is comfortable challenging him. We shall see…..
As for the summary, my chips are on Luciano becoming a star (if he can stay healthy - for a young guy, he has had a lot of problems, his back issues are particularly worrisome). Otherwise, the star power is on the pitching side, especially Harrison, Whisenhunt and Black.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 09-30-2023
(09-30-2023, 09:48 AM)lex24 Wrote:Mick Wrote:There have been 38 managers in Giants franchise history. Ranked by Giants winning percentage, the first three managed in the 19th century. The fourth was John McGraw. The fifth was another 19th century manager. The next two (Alvin Dark, Herman Franks) had Willie Mays, Willie McCovey, Orlando Cepeda, Harvey Kuenn, Jim Ray Hart, the Alou brothers, Juan Marichal, Mike McCormick, Gaylord Perry, Sanford, O'Dell, Pierce and Bolin. NO ONE on the current Giants roster can hold a candle to those players.I’m one of those who wants to see Melvin at the helm. Please, tell he why I’m wrong. Besides the Padres issues this year.
#8 was Bill Terry, managed in the 1930s. He had himself, Mel Ott, Carl Hubbell, Freddie Lindstrom, Travis Jackson. FIVE Hall of Famers. See any Hall of Famers on this year's squad? Next year's squad? The 2021 squad that won 107 games? Maybe Buster Posey, but frankly, I think Posey ends up like Bill Freehan...should be in, but he'll be out. That doesn't include pitchers like Castleman (15-6), Hal Schumacher (19-9). Doesn't include Jo-Jo Moore, six time All Star.
#9 was Leo Durocher, who had Mays, Johnny Mize, Sid Gordon, Whitey Lockman, Stanky, Dark, Bobby Thompson, Hank Thompson, Monte Irvin, Don Mueller, Wes Westrum, Sal Maglie, Larry Jansen. Some of those were Hall of Famers, ALL of them were multiple-year All Stars. See any multiple-year All Stars on this team? Maybe Bailey...but not yet.
#10 is Kapler.
Tenth best winning percentage among the 38 Giants managers. I can only imagine what it would have been if Posey had sucked it up and played during the COVID season, the season that the Giants finished one game out of the playoffs when they were forced to play Joey Bart and Chadwick Tromp at catcher. Kapler had a better winning percentage for the Giants than Felipe Alou, Roger Craig, Bruce Bochy, Dusty Baker and the rest. And let's not forget that Kapler came in after St. Bruce of Bochy had coached the team to consecutive 64-98, 73-89 and 77-85 records the three years prior to Kapler's arrival.
Rank on Farhan all you want. He put together a team of mediocre ballplayers. But they fired the wrong guy. And now some (Tim Kawakami, among others) want to replace Kapler (career winning percentage .526, SF Giants winning percentage .543) with Bob Melvin (career winning percentage .515). Melvin, who couldn't win with EIGHT multiple-year all-stars Gary Sanchez, Xander Bogaerts, Jake Cronenworth, Manny Machado, Juan Soto, Yu Darvish, Josh Hader and Matt Carpenter. And let's not forget Fernando Tatis (just one all star team, but finished 3rd and 4th in separate year MVP votes), Blake Snell (just one all star team but Cy Young winner and has TWICE led the NL in ERA, including this year), Joe Musgrove (three consecutive winning seasons and an All Star), Michael Wacha (24-6 last two seasons and a former all star, 87-54 career record) and Trent Grisham (2x Gold Glove CF). And eight of the Padres' nine starters are age 30 or younger.
And people think BOB MELVIN is the answer? Ho. Ho. Ho. It is to laugh.
Read the highlighted paragraph. He couldn't do anything with a team full of All Stars and he has a .515 career winning percentage.
(09-30-2023, 09:19 AM)Mick Wrote: There have been 38 managers in Giants franchise history. Ranked by Giants winning percentage, the first three managed in the 19th century. The fourth was John McGraw. The fifth was another 19th century manager. The next two (Alvin Dark, Herman Franks) had Willie Mays, Willie McCovey, Orlando Cepeda, Harvey Kuenn, Jim Ray Hart, the Alou brothers, Juan Marichal, Mike McCormick, Gaylord Perry, Sanford, O'Dell, Pierce and Bolin. NO ONE on the current Giants roster can hold a candle to those players.
#8 was Bill Terry, managed in the 1930s. He had himself, Mel Ott, Carl Hubbell, Freddie Lindstrom, Travis Jackson. FIVE Hall of Famers. See any Hall of Famers on this year's squad? Next year's squad? The 2021 squad that won 107 games? Maybe Buster Posey, but frankly, I think Posey ends up like Bill Freehan...should be in, but he'll be out. That doesn't include pitchers like Castleman (15-6), Hal Schumacher (19-9). Doesn't include Jo-Jo Moore, six time All Star.
#9 was Leo Durocher, who had Mays, Johnny Mize, Sid Gordon, Whitey Lockman, Stanky, Dark, Bobby Thompson, Hank Thompson, Monte Irvin, Don Mueller, Wes Westrum, Sal Maglie, Larry Jansen. Some of those were Hall of Famers, ALL of them were multiple-year All Stars. See any multiple-year All Stars on this team? Maybe Bailey...but not yet.
#10 is Kapler.
Tenth best winning percentage among the 38 Giants managers. I can only imagine what it would have been if Posey had sucked it up and played during the COVID season, the season that the Giants finished one game out of the playoffs when they were forced to play Joey Bart and Chadwick Tromp at catcher. Kapler had a better winning percentage for the Giants than Felipe Alou, Roger Craig, Bruce Bochy, Dusty Baker and the rest. And let's not forget that Kapler came in after St. Bruce of Bochy had coached the team to consecutive 64-98, 73-89 and 77-85 records the three years prior to Kapler's arrival.
Rank on Farhan all you want. He put together a team of mediocre ballplayers. But they fired the wrong guy. And now some (Tim Kawakami, among others) want to replace Kapler (career winning percentage .526, SF Giants winning percentage .543) with Bob Melvin (career winning percentage .515). Melvin, who couldn't win with EIGHT multiple-year all-stars Gary Sanchez, Xander Bogaerts, Jake Cronenworth, Manny Machado, Juan Soto, Yu Darvish, Josh Hader and Matt Carpenter. And let's not forget Fernando Tatis (just one all star team, but finished 3rd and 4th in separate year MVP votes), Blake Snell (just one all star team but Cy Young winner and has TWICE led the NL in ERA, including this year), Joe Musgrove (three consecutive winning seasons and an All Star), Michael Wacha (24-6 last two seasons and a former all star, 87-54 career record) and Trent Grisham (2x Gold Glove CF). And eight of the Padres' nine starters are age 30 or younger.
And people think BOB MELVIN is the answer? Ho. Ho. Ho. It is to laugh.
This article makes the case better than I do:
https://theathletic.com/4914890/2023/09/30/san-francisco-giants-gabe-kapler-farhan-zaidi-manager-firing/?
"Because the Giants didn’t win enough. Why didn’t the Giants win enough? Because their roster didn’t have nearly enough talent or continuity. Why didn’t their roster have enough talent or continuity? Maybe because Giants president of baseball operations Farhan Zaidi operated with blind spots that have been so large at times that you wondered who ripped off the side mirrors.
"Zaidi has had five years to guide the Giants into the National League’s upper echelon. He’s worked with the broadest of latitudes. He made dozens of shrewd moves but received no pushback on the strange or unpopular decisions. That much was clear from his very first opening day in 2019, when the Giants started two unknowns (Connor Joe and Michael Reed) in the outfield corners. Zaidi’s five seasons have included one playoff appearance and many, many forced fits."
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 09-30-2023
Forget the winning % of .515.
There is a certain (beloved) Hall of Fame-bound manager who has a career mark of .499
Speaking of The Athletic, the article about the dysfunction in San Diego only reinforced my opinion that Melvin is a great manager.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - gailtate - 09-30-2023
(09-30-2023, 12:58 PM)Mick Wrote:(09-30-2023, 09:48 AM)lex24 Wrote:Mick Wrote:There have been 38 managers in Giants franchise history. Ranked by Giants winning percentage, the first three managed in the 19th century. The fourth was John McGraw. The fifth was another 19th century manager. The next two (Alvin Dark, Herman Franks) had Willie Mays, Willie McCovey, Orlando Cepeda, Harvey Kuenn, Jim Ray Hart, the Alou brothers, Juan Marichal, Mike McCormick, Gaylord Perry, Sanford, O'Dell, Pierce and Bolin. NO ONE on the current Giants roster can hold a candle to those players.I’m one of those who wants to see Melvin at the helm. Please, tell he why I’m wrong. Besides the Padres issues this year.
#8 was Bill Terry, managed in the 1930s. He had himself, Mel Ott, Carl Hubbell, Freddie Lindstrom, Travis Jackson. FIVE Hall of Famers. See any Hall of Famers on this year's squad? Next year's squad? The 2021 squad that won 107 games? Maybe Buster Posey, but frankly, I think Posey ends up like Bill Freehan...should be in, but he'll be out. That doesn't include pitchers like Castleman (15-6), Hal Schumacher (19-9). Doesn't include Jo-Jo Moore, six time All Star.
#9 was Leo Durocher, who had Mays, Johnny Mize, Sid Gordon, Whitey Lockman, Stanky, Dark, Bobby Thompson, Hank Thompson, Monte Irvin, Don Mueller, Wes Westrum, Sal Maglie, Larry Jansen. Some of those were Hall of Famers, ALL of them were multiple-year All Stars. See any multiple-year All Stars on this team? Maybe Bailey...but not yet.
#10 is Kapler.
Tenth best winning percentage among the 38 Giants managers. I can only imagine what it would have been if Posey had sucked it up and played during the COVID season, the season that the Giants finished one game out of the playoffs when they were forced to play Joey Bart and Chadwick Tromp at catcher. Kapler had a better winning percentage for the Giants than Felipe Alou, Roger Craig, Bruce Bochy, Dusty Baker and the rest. And let's not forget that Kapler came in after St. Bruce of Bochy had coached the team to consecutive 64-98, 73-89 and 77-85 records the three years prior to Kapler's arrival.
Rank on Farhan all you want. He put together a team of mediocre ballplayers. But they fired the wrong guy. And now some (Tim Kawakami, among others) want to replace Kapler (career winning percentage .526, SF Giants winning percentage .543) with Bob Melvin (career winning percentage .515). Melvin, who couldn't win with EIGHT multiple-year all-stars Gary Sanchez, Xander Bogaerts, Jake Cronenworth, Manny Machado, Juan Soto, Yu Darvish, Josh Hader and Matt Carpenter. And let's not forget Fernando Tatis (just one all star team, but finished 3rd and 4th in separate year MVP votes), Blake Snell (just one all star team but Cy Young winner and has TWICE led the NL in ERA, including this year), Joe Musgrove (three consecutive winning seasons and an All Star), Michael Wacha (24-6 last two seasons and a former all star, 87-54 career record) and Trent Grisham (2x Gold Glove CF). And eight of the Padres' nine starters are age 30 or younger.
And people think BOB MELVIN is the answer? Ho. Ho. Ho. It is to laugh.
Read the highlighted paragraph. He couldn't do anything with a team full of All Stars and he has a .515 career winning percentage.
(09-30-2023, 09:19 AM)Mick Wrote: There have been 38 managers in Giants franchise history. Ranked by Giants winning percentage, the first three managed in the 19th century. The fourth was John McGraw. The fifth was another 19th century manager. The next two (Alvin Dark, Herman Franks) had Willie Mays, Willie McCovey, Orlando Cepeda, Harvey Kuenn, Jim Ray Hart, the Alou brothers, Juan Marichal, Mike McCormick, Gaylord Perry, Sanford, O'Dell, Pierce and Bolin. NO ONE on the current Giants roster can hold a candle to those players.
#8 was Bill Terry, managed in the 1930s. He had himself, Mel Ott, Carl Hubbell, Freddie Lindstrom, Travis Jackson. FIVE Hall of Famers. See any Hall of Famers on this year's squad? Next year's squad? The 2021 squad that won 107 games? Maybe Buster Posey, but frankly, I think Posey ends up like Bill Freehan...should be in, but he'll be out. That doesn't include pitchers like Castleman (15-6), Hal Schumacher (19-9). Doesn't include Jo-Jo Moore, six time All Star.
#9 was Leo Durocher, who had Mays, Johnny Mize, Sid Gordon, Whitey Lockman, Stanky, Dark, Bobby Thompson, Hank Thompson, Monte Irvin, Don Mueller, Wes Westrum, Sal Maglie, Larry Jansen. Some of those were Hall of Famers, ALL of them were multiple-year All Stars. See any multiple-year All Stars on this team? Maybe Bailey...but not yet.
#10 is Kapler.
Tenth best winning percentage among the 38 Giants managers. I can only imagine what it would have been if Posey had sucked it up and played during the COVID season, the season that the Giants finished one game out of the playoffs when they were forced to play Joey Bart and Chadwick Tromp at catcher. Kapler had a better winning percentage for the Giants than Felipe Alou, Roger Craig, Bruce Bochy, Dusty Baker and the rest. And let's not forget that Kapler came in after St. Bruce of Bochy had coached the team to consecutive 64-98, 73-89 and 77-85 records the three years prior to Kapler's arrival.
Rank on Farhan all you want. He put together a team of mediocre ballplayers. But they fired the wrong guy. And now some (Tim Kawakami, among others) want to replace Kapler (career winning percentage .526, SF Giants winning percentage .543) with Bob Melvin (career winning percentage .515). Melvin, who couldn't win with EIGHT multiple-year all-stars Gary Sanchez, Xander Bogaerts, Jake Cronenworth, Manny Machado, Juan Soto, Yu Darvish, Josh Hader and Matt Carpenter. And let's not forget Fernando Tatis (just one all star team, but finished 3rd and 4th in separate year MVP votes), Blake Snell (just one all star team but Cy Young winner and has TWICE led the NL in ERA, including this year), Joe Musgrove (three consecutive winning seasons and an All Star), Michael Wacha (24-6 last two seasons and a former all star, 87-54 career record) and Trent Grisham (2x Gold Glove CF). And eight of the Padres' nine starters are age 30 or younger.
And people think BOB MELVIN is the answer? Ho. Ho. Ho. It is to laugh.
This article makes the case better than I do:
https://theathletic.com/4914890/2023/09/30/san-francisco-giants-gabe-kapler-farhan-zaidi-manager-firing/?
"Because the Giants didn’t win enough. Why didn’t the Giants win enough? Because their roster didn’t have nearly enough talent or continuity. Why didn’t their roster have enough talent or continuity? Maybe because Giants president of baseball operations Farhan Zaidi operated with blind spots that have been so large at times that you wondered who ripped off the side mirrors.
"Zaidi has had five years to guide the Giants into the National League’s upper echelon. He’s worked with the broadest of latitudes. He made dozens of shrewd moves but received no pushback on the strange or unpopular decisions. That much was clear from his very first opening day in 2019, when the Giants started two unknowns (Connor Joe and Michael Reed) in the outfield corners. Zaidi’s five seasons have included one playoff appearance and many, many forced fits."
Giants fans would be frickin' lucky to snag Melvin. LUCKY. Indeed, Bo-Mel in SF puts me in a seat at Oracle. Where I haven't been since the GWB Administration. I'll still pass on the garlic fries, however. https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/giants/article/giants-firing-gabe-kapler-imminent-team-s-18397438.php