Outside Topic OT: Giants 2023 thread - Printable Version
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RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 10-03-2023
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1696360690' Wrote: 1696360690[/url]']
Giants dateline='[url=tel:1696358277' Wrote: 1696358277[/url]']
BobK dateline='[url=tel:1696356552' Wrote: 1696356552[/url]']
Let Crawford go? You missed all the Sunday farewells I guess.
Are you surprised?
Heck, he also thinks Yaz “would honestly be the best available left handed OF on the market”. I suggest that Bellinger might have something to say about that……
Oh, yes, forgot Bellinger, but the point is there isn't a lot after him in terms of LH hitting OFs on the 2024 FA market. Bellinger wasn't on the UFA list I saw as he is only a FA if he opts out, which is expected.
And Crawford didn't announce his retirement. I heard Susan Slusser suggest he may want to come back and go out on a higher note.
If Crawford plays again (and he may), it will be for a different team. There is absolutely no question about that.
BobK dateline='[url=tel:1696363225' Wrote: 1696363225[/url]']
Mick its 502 plate appearances. Estrada had 530!
Davis had 546 PA’s and Wade had 519 PA’s.
Quite frankly, three qualifiers is more than I thought they had.
And, only one pitcher (Webb) threw at least 162 innings (the minimum needed to qualify for the ERA title). That says a lot about the starting rotation mess.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 10-03-2023
(10-03-2023, 01:00 PM)BobK Wrote: Mick its 502 plate appearances. Estrada had 530!
I stand corrected. Davis, Estrada and Wade all surpassed the 502 PA minimum. The other 29 position players who were on the roster at one time or another had fewer PAs.
Vernon Glenn and others are reporting that Bob Melvin is sticking in San Diego. Glenn is theorizing that Ron Wotus is the lead candidate for next year's managerial role.
Wotus was very successful as a minor league manager. He was California League Manager of the Year in 1991 when he led the Giants to a 92-44 record and he was the Pacific Coast League Manager of the Year in 1997 after the Phoenix Firebirds finished 88-55. Unlike Kapler's Giants, they were very strong at the end, winning 41 of their final 51 games. The next year, he was Dusty Baker's third base coach and he served as bench coach from 1999-2017 under Baker, Alou and Bochy. He coached Giants infielders and was in charge of defensive shifts. He retired from active coaching after the 2021 season and before the roof caved in.
He did have unsuccessful manager interviews with the Pirates, Dodgers, Mariners, Rays and Nationals.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - BobK - 10-03-2023
Hope it’s a much younger man. Great respect for Wotus but successful 25-30 years ago doesn’t mean success in 2024-25
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 10-04-2023
Is it time for the Giants 2024 thread yet? Or does this thread remain viable until the 2023 World Series Champion has been crowned? Or does it literally have to be the year 2024 to have that thread?
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 10-04-2023
(10-04-2023, 09:05 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Is it time for the Giants 2024 thread yet? Or does this thread remain viable until the 2023 World Series Champion has been crowned? Or does it literally have to be the year 2024 to have that thread?
There's still a bit more to say about 2023...like Dieter Kurtenbach's article, which supports my point that Farhan was at least as much to blame as Kapler, given the lockstep nature of their relationship. From my perspective, the bad players were the problem. And yes, the players subtly -- and a few not-so-subtly -- blamed the manager for 2023's shortfalls. And when you can't hit or field or run, then I suppose that's just natural.
Still...DK thinks Farhan is part of the issue, that they will fail in free agency, and will get a fourth-rate manager. And I don't disagree with any of that. My suspicion is that Farham sold the young players to management, essentially saying that he hasn't had enough time to recover from Bobby Evans' ginormous failures, that there are some very promising early results (Bailey, some of the pitchers, maybe Fitzgerald, Casey's two homers on the last day), and that the Giants only missed the playoffs by 1 game in 2020, six games last year and five games this year. And, I suppose, Farhan prevailed upon management to give him one more year. And he either gets into the playoffs next year, signs Ohtani (or at least Bellinger), or he's gone.
SF Giants owners harm future with Gabe Kapler, Farhan Zaidi decisions (mercurynews.com)
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - BobK - 10-04-2023
We could have signed Bellinger last year.
What changed in Bellinger’s mind ?
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 10-04-2023
BobK dateline='[url=tel:1696438867' Wrote: 1696438867[/url]']
We could have signed Bellinger last year.
What changed in Bellinger’s mind ?
Last year, the Cubs made the best offer. This year, he will receive much more attention. If SF makes the best offer, he might sign with the Giants. He is represented by Scott Boras. That tells me he will not sign until late in the process.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - BobK - 10-04-2023
Bellinger signed for $17.5M A pox on Farham
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 10-04-2023
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1696438556' Wrote: 1696438556[/url]']
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1696435504' Wrote: 1696435504[/url]']
Is it time for the Giants 2024 thread yet? Or does this thread remain viable until the 2023 World Series Champion has been crowned? Or does it literally have to be the year 2024 to have that thread?
There's still a bit more to say about 2023...like Dieter Kurtenbach's article, which supports my point that Farhan was at least as much to blame as Kapler, given the lockstep nature of their relationship. From my perspective, the bad players were the problem. And yes, the players subtly -- and a few not-so-subtly -- blamed the manager for 2023's shortfalls. And when you can't hit or field or run, then I suppose that's just natural.
Still...DK thinks Farhan is part of the issue, that they will fail in free agency, and will get a fourth-rate manager. And I don't disagree with any of that. My suspicion is that Farham sold the young players to management, essentially saying that he hasn't had enough time to recover from Bobby Evans' ginormous failures, that there are some very promising early results (Bailey, some of the pitchers, maybe Fitzgerald, Casey's two homers on the last day), and that the Giants only missed the playoffs by 1 game in 2020, six games last year and five games this year. And, I suppose, Farhan prevailed upon management to give him one more year. And he either gets into the playoffs next year, signs Ohtani (or at least Bellinger), or he's gone.
SF Giants owners harm future with Gabe Kapler, Farhan Zaidi decisions (mercurynews.com)
I don’t think anyone who follows the team closely would disagree with the notion that Zaidi is at fault for the mess that currently exists. I believe that he has one year to get things pointed in the right direction.
It is certainly possible IF he pulls the pulls the correct levers this off-season. Do I think he will? I would put the odds at 50-50.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 10-04-2023
Andrew Baggarly on the end of season state of affairs:
https://theathletic.com/4927750/2023/10/03/san-francisco-giants-offseason-priorities/
Some of the more horrific things seen in that article and comments:
- The data analysis and support staff is bigger than the team itself, including 8 software engineers to develop proprietary software to crunch numbers - all for 79-83. Imagine how terrible they would have been without any quants.
- Farhan suggests and Baggarly makes point that the Giants were "toxic" to free agents, so they want a charming and charismatic person to be manager now, to get past the geek/automaton with Farhan and Gabe.
- Farhan says winning would draw fans to the stadium, but ignores the fact the Giants were 17th in attendance when they didn't really fall out of contention until late August (it's the lack of connection to the players and boring baseball).
- Farhan was allowed to hire Gabe on his own, now Greg Johnson, Larry Baer, and Buster Posey will have a say. Posey may be a great baseball guy, but this is terrible for accountability. Farhan was told to fire Gabe, now he needs to get approval on his manager hire? WTF is in charge?
- The Giants were selling DODGERS apparel when the Dodgers were playing at Oracle!!!!
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 10-04-2023
Please identify your sources for the comment, “Farhan was told to fire Gabe.”
According to everything that has been published to date, it was Zaidi’s decision to bring that move to Johnson and the Board.
In essence, whether it be Kapler or the next guy or whoever, there can be no final decision made without Board approval. All Zaidi can do is forward a recommendation. To my knowledge, he does not have an ownership stake, he is just an employee.
Now that it has been announced that Melvin will return to SD, the hunt for a new manager can begin in earnest…
By the way, I read Baggs’ article yesterday, I thought it was a well-balanced presentation of the current situation. There is a lot of good and a lot that needs to be changed in the organization.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 10-04-2023
(10-04-2023, 02:33 PM)Giants Wrote: Please identify your sources for the comment, “Farhan was told to fire Gabe.”
Here's what I know:
- Farhan said all season Gabe was returning
- He then softened his stance in the last week of the season
- He fired a guy with three games to go in the season
- In his post-Gabe press time, the words Farhan used to describe him made it sound like he should be hiring him
None of this sounds like a decision made by Farhan. Maybe it was his, but I'm not convinced. And even if it is true it was Farhan's idea and he had to get approval, it only demonstrates a dysfunctional organization that doesn't allow people to be fairly judged on their performance. Boards approve contracts, not hires of anyone but the executive they oversee.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 10-04-2023
(10-04-2023, 12:56 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Andrew Baggarly on the end of season state of affairs:
https://theathletic.com/4927750/2023/10/03/san-francisco-giants-offseason-priorities/
Some of the more horrific things seen in that article and comments:
- The data analysis and support staff is bigger than the team itself, including 8 software engineers to develop proprietary software to crunch numbers - all for 79-83. Imagine how terrible they would have been without any quants.
- Farhan suggests and Baggarly makes point that the Giants were "toxic" to free agents, so they want a charming and charismatic person to be manager now, to get past the geek/automaton with Farhan and Gabe.
- Farhan says winning would draw fans to the stadium, but ignores the fact the Giants were 17th in attendance when they didn't really fall out of contention until late August (it's the lack of connection to the players and boring baseball).
- Farhan was allowed to hire Gabe on his own, now Greg Johnson, Larry Baer, and Buster Posey will have a say. Posey may be a great baseball guy, but this is terrible for accountability. Farhan was told to fire Gabe, now he needs to get approval on his manager hire? WTF is in charge?
- The Giants were selling DODGERS apparel when the Dodgers were playing at Oracle!!!!
My understanding is that Logan Webb will also have a say in hiring the new manager. And I'm guessing his unhappy comments directly impacted Kapler's unanticipated shortened tenure...
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 10-04-2023
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1696457897' Wrote: 1696457897[/url]']
Giants dateline='[url=tel:1696455183' Wrote: 1696455183[/url]']
Please identify your sources for the comment, “Farhan was told to fire Gabe.”
Here's what I know:
- Farhan said all season Gabe was returning
- He then softened his stance in the last week of the season
- He fired a guy with three games to go in the season
- In his post-Gabe press time, the words Farhan used to describe him made it sound like he should be hiring him
None of this sounds like a decision made by Farhan. Maybe it was his, but I'm not convinced. And even if it is true it was Farhan's idea and he had to get approval, it only demonstrates a dysfunctional organization that doesn't allow people to be fairly judged on their performance. Boards approve contracts, not hires of anyone but the executive they oversee.
I would disagree. I would suggest the hiring of every manager in baseball had to be approved by the Board of Directors of the respective club.
As for the comments Zaidi made after the termination of Kepler’s contract were standard fare. No one in his position would ever say anything negative publicly. When asked after terminating an employee, I would always focus on the positive attributes of the individual. There is no need to drag someone through the mud - it’s strictly business.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 10-12-2023
Giants dateline='[url=tel:1696462992' Wrote: 1696462992[/url]']
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1696457897' Wrote: 1696457897[/url]']
Giants dateline='[url=tel:1696455183' Wrote: 1696455183[/url]']
Please identify your sources for the comment, “Farhan was told to fire Gabe.”
Here's what I know:
- Farhan said all season Gabe was returning
- He then softened his stance in the last week of the season
- He fired a guy with three games to go in the season
- In his post-Gabe press time, the words Farhan used to describe him made it sound like he should be hiring him
None of this sounds like a decision made by Farhan. Maybe it was his, but I'm not convinced. And even if it is true it was Farhan's idea and he had to get approval, it only demonstrates a dysfunctional organization that doesn't allow people to be fairly judged on their performance. Boards approve contracts, not hires of anyone but the executive they oversee.
I would disagree. I would suggest the hiring of every manager in baseball had to be approved by the Board of Directors of the respective club.
As for the comments Zaidi made after the termination of Kepler’s contract were standard fare. No one in his position would ever say anything negative publicly. When asked after terminating an employee, I would always focus on the positive attributes of the individual. There is no need to drag someone through the mud - it’s strictly business.
Dusty vs Bochy. Dodgers gone. All a Giant fan could hope for this post season.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 10-12-2023
Not only did the Dodgers get swept...
- Kershaw became the first Pitcher in post-season history to allow 5 ER before recording an out.
- The Dodgers became the first team to ever allow 4 HRs in one post-season inning.
- Mookie Betts and Freddie Freeman combined to go 1-22 in 3 games.
Pretty sweet for a Giants fan.
Now the other "juggernaut" team, the Braves, are on the verge of elimination to the Phillies.
Hard for me two wrap my head around not one of the 3 AL East teams in the playoffs won a single game.
Ya, Baker vs. Bochy is pretty cool. But honestly, it's hard for me to root for either the Rangers or Astros. I rooted for Dusty last year, but do I really want him beating Bochy and denying the Rangers their first World Series win?
I can't root for the D-Backs because they are so much better positioned to win than the Giants are right now. And the Phillies are a reminder of Giants failures - trading Zack Wheeler for Carlos Beltran (a deal I was in favor of at the time, but WTF was I thinking), not signing Nick Castellanos, and failing with Bryce Harper.
I guess by default, go rangers...
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - French Rage - 10-12-2023
Dodgers scored 6 runs in the entire NLDS. DBacks scored 6 runs in the 1st inning of game 1.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 10-12-2023
I’m rooting for the Rangers. Boch getting a fourth ring would put him in rather distinguished company (McCarthy, Stengel, Mack, Alston, Torre). Besides the TX franchise has the second longest drought (since their founding in 1961 as the Senators II) behind Cleveland (1948). I like to see teams finally win after decades of futility.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 10-12-2023
I'd rather see the Rangers win. Bochy manages, ex-Giants Will Smith and Chris Stratton pitching versus the Astros with Dusty Baker managing, and ex-Giant Mauricio Dubon as a backup infielder.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - BobK - 10-12-2023
Dubon with 467 ABs more than utility plus he hit 278