Vaccine distribution - Printable Version
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RE: Vaccine distribution - BostonCard - 12-13-2020
Also, thalidomide is a great tale about how a reviewer at the FDA prevented the Agency from approving the drug.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Oldham_Kelsey
By holding up the review, Kelsey saved thousands of children from birth defects, as thalidomide was never approved in the US for morning sickness (despite lots of pressure from the drug's manufacturer).
When I say that Steve Hahn should have resigned rather than allow administration pressure to grant the EUA for the Pfizer vaccine, this is what I had in mind. Imagine if reviewers see a safety signal or a batch impurity or manufacturer defect now in a week, after hundreds of thousands have been vaccinated. Confidence in vaccines will be destroyed for a generation.
BC
RE: Vaccine distribution - M T - 12-13-2020
I found this slide deck informative
Clinical Considerations for Populations Included in Phase 1a
about the reactions to the shots, etc.
It indicates
"Anticipate 5-10million doses per week post-authorization"
"No data on use of mRNA vaccines in pregnant/breastfeeding women"
while "Approximately 330,000 health care personnel could be pregnant or recently postpartum at the time of vaccine implementation"
Thanks to dabigv for correcting my misread of the news article that brought up administering the vaccine to pregnant women.
RE: Vaccine distribution - murky - 12-14-2020
I've read more than half of the thread, but no all of the replies.
Is there any indication of if/when a vaccine will be available for children under 16?
RE: Vaccine distribution - BostonCard - 12-14-2020
(12-14-2020, 02:53 PM)murky Wrote: I've read more than half of the thread, but no all of the replies.
Is there any indication of if/when a vaccine will be available for children under 16?
Pfizer and Moderna are kicking off their pediatric studies.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-vaccine-makers-turn-toward-testing-children-11607688001
Quote:Yet some experts don’t expect a children’s vaccine will be ready by the 2021 school year because of how long trials take, even on the accelerated timeline for Covid-19 vaccines. “I’m pretty worried that the window’s closing if it hasn’t already closed,” said Evan Anderson, a pediatrics professor at the Emory University School of Medicine. “The timing then becomes a challenge in order to achieve enough data such that you’ve had a vaccine fully tested and evaluated over the spring and summer.”
BC
RE: Vaccine distribution - DenverCard - 12-14-2020
Given the remarkable speed with which the Pfizer, and hopefully Moderna, vaccines have been brought to market, I realize I will sound like an ingrate in raising the following...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upD6cB9Rzvk
...but I was hoping for (expecting) more doses of the vaccines would be available once the FDA granted approval. I seem to recall that a boatload of doses were to be manufactured pending approval, which would be wasted if approval was not forthcoming. And yet it now seems that it will be many months before there will be enough doses to inoculate ordinary folks. Did anyone else have similar, albeit in retrospect unrealistic, expectations?
RE: lex24 - BostonCard - 12-14-2020
(12-14-2020, 04:59 PM)lex24 Wrote: Speaking of the vaccine; when Trump announced in May that there would be a vaccine by the end of the year, he was lambasted. My favorite comment from an “expert” was it would take “a miracle”. So, does Trump get some credit? I mean, a miracle has occurred.
He richly deserves the criticism he gets. Maybe on this he deserves some praise.
Yes, he deserves credit for operation warp speed and the vaccine. I have given it to him here, and I don't have compunctions about doing so again. I think in another post, I listed all the things that had been done and had to break right for us to get a vaccine and if memory serves, the administration's efforts were #2 on the list.
BC
RE: Vaccine distribution - dabigv13 - 12-14-2020
The scientists who developed the vaccine deserve credit for this miracle. All Trump did was throw a lot of money at pharma companies, and apparently not enough since we could've had twice as many Pfizer doses as we have. Any POTUS would have done at least what Trump did in that regard. Trump's only unique contribution is probably the catchy Warp Speed nickname.
RE: Vaccine distribution - Goose - 12-14-2020
(12-14-2020, 06:32 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: The scientists who developed the vaccine deserve credit for this miracle. All Trump did was throw a lot of money at pharma companies, and apparently not enough since we could've had twice as many Pfizer doses as we have. Any POTUS would have done at least what Trump did in that regard. Trump's only unique contribution is probably the catchy Warp Speed nickname.Totally agree. I strongly suspect that the program wasn't designed by Trump but rather by his "staff". All Trump did was not stand in the way. Any politician with a disaster on their hands would want a program to "fix the problem", especially one that didn't require anything from them besides money.
RE: Vaccine distribution - M T - 12-14-2020
So, JFK deserves no credit for getting a man to the moon by the end of the decade. It was the scientists. And it was all planned by the staff.
RE: Vaccine distribution - teejers1 - 12-14-2020
(12-14-2020, 06:43 PM)Goose Wrote:(12-14-2020, 06:32 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: The scientists who developed the vaccine deserve credit for this miracle. All Trump did was throw a lot of money at pharma companies, and apparently not enough since we could've had twice as many Pfizer doses as we have. Any POTUS would have done at least what Trump did in that regard. Trump's only unique contribution is probably the catchy Warp Speed nickname.Totally agree. I strongly suspect that the program wasn't designed by Trump but rather by his "staff". All Trump did was not stand in the way. Any politician with a disaster on their hands would want a program to "fix the problem", especially one that didn't require anything from them besides money.
Just from this thread alone we should plan on having this board stay open for years after the US has a vaccination widely distributed - people evidently need a place to vent, and there's no reason to give up a convenient punching bag. I mean, what's the harm? Plus, it very likely might provide a mental benefit to folks in these parts.
RE: Vaccine distribution - BostonCard - 12-14-2020
Speaking of the scientists, here is the story of the mRNA technology behind the COVID-19 vaccines:
https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/10/the-story-of-mrna-how-a-once-dismissed-idea-became-a-leading-technology-in-the-covid-vaccine-race/
I give Trump credit because it is hard to play the alternative history of what some other President would have done. Trump's defenders keep saying that nobody else could have done better managing the pandemic, which I disagree with. There's no way of knowing what the alternative would have been like, and the bottom line is that it happened, and Trump was president.
BC
RE: Vaccine distribution - Goose - 12-14-2020
(12-14-2020, 06:51 PM)M T Wrote: So, JFK deserves no credit for getting a man to the moon by the end of the decade. It was the scientists. And it was all planned by the staff.Not at all similar. I think it is pretty safe to say the American public was already convinced that we wanted to get rid of COVID-19. I think it is equally safe to say that almost nobody in the USA really wanted or expected to reach the moon by the end of the decade. Nobody cared. Kennedy made them care, and sold the idea to the public (and eventually to Congress). That wasn't easy at all. For that he deserves lots of credit.
That said, it was the scientists and even more importantly the engineers that made it happen, and probably they do in fact deserve most of the credit. However, if the program hadn't had inspiring leadership at the beginning, it would have never happened. Operation Warp Speed didn't require any of that. The public was already sold. Not doing anything would have been politically much more difficult.
(12-14-2020, 06:53 PM)BostonCard Wrote: I give Trump credit because it is hard to play the alternative history of what some other President would have done. Trump's defenders keep saying that nobody else could have done better managing the pandemic, which I disagree with. There's no way of knowing what the alternative would have been like, and the bottom line is that it happened, and Trump was president.Agree it happened and Trump was president. I don't assign any merit to that fact. COVID-19 also happened and Trump was president. I don't assign any blame to that fact. I do understand your point that an alternative history can't be evaluated. In my personal rating system (YMMV), Trump gets almost no credit for the vaccine development because 1) Companies worldwide were trying to do it anyway in many different countries and 2) I don't believe Trump actually had the idea himself or needed to expend any political capital to make it happen. I can't give anybody a LOM for that.
BC
RE: Vaccine distribution - BostonCard - 12-14-2020
The humor thread is buried, but this is a joke about vaccine distribution, so...
[tweet]https://twitter.com/xkcdComic/status/1338658197075202048?s=20[/tweet]
BC
RE: Vaccine distribution - Genuine Realist - 12-14-2020
(12-14-2020, 07:01 PM)Goose Wrote:It's obviously way too early to write history here. The story of the vaccine will be a fascinating one when it appears. I hope to live to read it.(12-14-2020, 06:51 PM)M T Wrote: So, JFK deserves no credit for getting a man to the moon by the end of the decade. It was the scientists. And it was all planned by the staff.Not at all similar. I think it is pretty safe to say the American public was already convinced that we wanted to get rid of COVID-19. I think it is equally safe to say that almost nobody in the USA really wanted or expected to reach the moon by the end of the decade. Nobody cared. Kennedy made them care, and sold the idea to the public (and eventually to Congress). That wasn't easy at all. For that he deserves lots of credit.
That said, it was the scientists and even more importantly the engineers that made it happen, and probably they do in fact deserve most of the credit. However, if the program hadn't had inspiring leadership at the beginning, it would have never happened. Operation Warp Speed didn't require any of that. The public was already sold. Not doing anything would have been politically much more difficult.
(12-14-2020, 06:53 PM)BostonCard Wrote: I give Trump credit because it is hard to play the alternative history of what some other President would have done. Trump's defenders keep saying that nobody else could have done better managing the pandemic, which I disagree with. There's no way of knowing what the alternative would have been like, and the bottom line is that it happened, and Trump was president.Agree it happened and Trump was president. I don't assign any merit to that fact. COVID-19 also happened and Trump was president. I don't assign any blame to that fact. I do understand your point that an alternative history can't be evaluated. In my personal rating system (YMMV), Trump gets almost no credit for the vaccine development because 1) Companies worldwide were trying to do it anyway in many different countries and 2) I don't believe Trump actually had the idea himself or needed to expend any political capital to make it happen. I can't give anybody a LOM for that.
BC
I'm glad Trump is gone, and his behavior these last six weeks has been so god-awful one is reluctant to give him credit for anything. Still, the fact is he bet his Presidency on being able to deliver a vaccine before Election Day, and lost by about three weeks. In fact, he might not have lost at all if he weren't so personally obnoxious. Pfizer and Moderna were close enough to have put out favorable press before the election, but chose not to. They don't like him very much. Neither do I.
That said, he was not a bad chief executive, apart from the horrible personal style, and his administration did have its achievements. He almost certainly deserves some credit. How much? Wait five years and we may find out. One thing for sure, Joe Biden, who is a practical politician, is going to take all the credit offered to him. He's no fool.
RE: Vaccine distribution - Goose - 12-14-2020
(12-14-2020, 08:18 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: It's obviously way too early to write history here. The story of the vaccine will be a fascinating one when it appears. I hope to live to read it.Agree, I will be looking forward to it as well.
Quote:Still, the fact is he bet his Presidency on being able to deliver a vaccine before Election Day, and lost by about three weeks.I don't see it that way at all. What other options did he have? If the USA was still without an answer to COVID-19 on election day, what could he do about it? He tried just saying "We have turned the corner", but that was a tough sell. It wasn't a bet, because you can chose not to bet. He didn't have that choice.
Quote:In fact, he might not have lost at all if he weren't so personally obnoxious. Pfizer and Moderna were close enough to have put out favorable press before the election, but chose not to. They don't like him very much. Neither do I.Maybe that will come out in the 5 year period, but I have another theory. Both Pfizer and Moderna were justifiably terrified of the FDA coming down on them like a ton of bricks for releasing a result from the data "peek" that had not been totally vetted and analyzed, and if not the FDA they also had to worry about the SEC (not the conference). Plenty of reasons to have all your ducks in a row before you say anything, because the down side of not doing so is quite spectacularly horrible.
RE: Vaccine distribution - Genuine Realist - 12-14-2020
(12-14-2020, 09:42 PM)Goose Wrote:Very plausible.(12-14-2020, 08:18 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: It's obviously way too early to write history here. The story of the vaccine will be a fascinating one when it appears. I hope to live to read it.Agree, I will be looking forward to it as well.
Quote:Still, the fact is he bet his Presidency on being able to deliver a vaccine before Election Day, and lost by about three weeks.I don't see it that way at all. What other options did he have? If the USA was still without an answer to COVID-19 on election day, what could he do about it? He tried just saying "We have turned the corner", but that was a tough sell. It wasn't a bet, because you can chose not to bet. He didn't have that choice.
Quote:In fact, he might not have lost at all if he weren't so personally obnoxious. Pfizer and Moderna were close enough to have put out favorable press before the election, but chose not to. They don't like him very much. Neither do I.Maybe that will come out in the 5 year period, but I have another theory. Both Pfizer and Moderna were justifiably terrified of the FDA coming down on them like a ton of bricks for releasing a result from the data "peek" that had not been totally vetted and analyzed, and if not the FDA they also had to worry about the SEC (not the conference). Plenty of reasons to have all your ducks in a row before you say anything, because the down side of not doing so is quite spectacularly horrible.
Still,the timing of the announcement -one week AFTER the election, too late to make any difference - is, shall we say, interesting.
RE: Vaccine distribution - Mick - 12-14-2020
(12-14-2020, 08:18 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: It's obviously way too early to write history here. The story of the vaccine will be a fascinating one when it appears. I hope to live to read it.
I'm glad Trump is gone, and his behavior these last six weeks has been so god-awful one is reluctant to give him credit for anything. Still, the fact is he bet his Presidency on being able to deliver a vaccine before Election Day, and lost by about three weeks. In fact, he might not have lost at all if he weren't so personally obnoxious. Pfizer and Moderna were close enough to have put out favorable press before the election, but chose not to. They don't like him very much. Neither do I.
That said, he was not a bad chief executive, apart from the horrible personal style, and his administration did have its achievements. He almost certainly deserves some credit. How much? Wait five years and we may find out. One thing for sure, Joe Biden, who is a practical politician, is going to take all the credit offered to him. He's no fool.
And conversely, Biden will blame Trump for everything that goes wrong during the next four years (on the off- off-chance that Biden actually lasts the full four years). He'll blame Trump just as his former boss President Obama blamed George Bush for Obama's sickly economic recovery in the sixth year of Obama's presidency. Bush was at least personally likeable. Even Michelle Obama has warmed up to him. No one will warm up to the cretinous Trump.
RE: Vaccine distribution - M T - 12-14-2020
SCC has posted its Vaccination Plan, required to be given to the state on December 1.
RE: Vaccine distribution - magnus - 12-15-2020
(12-14-2020, 06:53 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Speaking of the scientists, here is the story of the mRNA technology behind the COVID-19 vaccines:
https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/10/the-story-of-mrna-how-a-once-dismissed-idea-became-a-leading-technology-in-the-covid-vaccine-race/
Here's another story on the development of the two mRNA vaccines:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/21/us/politics/coronavirus-vaccine.html
RE: lex24 - Snorlax94 - 12-15-2020
(12-14-2020, 05:35 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(12-14-2020, 04:59 PM)lex24 Wrote: Speaking of the vaccine; when Trump announced in May that there would be a vaccine by the end of the year, he was lambasted. My favorite comment from an “expert” was it would take “a miracle”. So, does Trump get some credit? I mean, a miracle has occurred.
He richly deserves the criticism he gets. Maybe on this he deserves some praise.
Yes, he deserves credit for operation warp speed and the vaccine. I have given it to him here, and I don't have compunctions about doing so again. I think in another post, I listed all the things that had been done and had to break right for us to get a vaccine and if memory serves, the administration's efforts were #2 on the list.
BC
Wow -- a miracle?? a Miracle??
Only one vaccine has been approved in the US, and that is Pfizer's, and "Pfizer did not accept federal funding to help develop or manufacture the vaccine, unlike front-runners Moderna and AstraZeneca...In an interview on Sunday, Kathrin Jansen, a senior vice president and the head of vaccine research and development at Pfizer, said, “We were never part of the Warp Speed,” adding, “we have never taken any money from the U.S. government, or from anyone.”" (NYTimes)
So how can Trump be responsible for this "miracle" if the Pfizer vaccine was not part of Warp Speed? The Trump administration associates the Pfizer vaccine with the Warp Speed initiative because the US purchased doses (and not enough) as part of its Operation Warp Speed, which apparently has confused some people to think somehow Operation Warp Speed contributed to the vaccine's development.
And the US wasn't the only one to buy a lot of Pfizer vaccine, in fact, many countries purchased more on a per capita basis, and the US (foolishly) rejected the opportunity to purchase more vaccine last summer.
And if it's a miracle, the UK (and Russia, but I don't really count them) started vaccinating before the US, and Canada started vaccinating on the same day. So, there are lots of miracles. But is it really a miracle for the most advanced, most wealthy, most powerful country in the world to start vaccinating after the UK (and Russia) and at the same time as Canada?
I would rate the Operation Warp Speed initiative -- and narrowly only that part -- to contribute to vaccine development (in some instances) and to pre-purchase a fair number of doses in advance as somewhere between "pretty good" to "not screwing it up." But come on, these steps were totally obvious to everyone on this board. And in fact, I think most people on this board have been arguing that the US should have been investing even more.
And this is skipping Trump's others activities related to vaccines and treatments -- Trump's contributions to the anti-vaxxer movement, the inequality in how treatments (like antibody cocktails) are distributed, the misinformation (hydroxychloroquine! sunshine! bleach!) -- greatly outweighs the positive steps in Operation Warp Speed. And I'm not even touching upon the rest (Atlas: masks do not work, Atlas: The only way this stops is if people rise up, not ramping up more ppe production, it's just a cold, it's a hoax that will disappear after the election, it will disappear like a miracle in March, don't let Covid dominate your life, "Kung Flu", Liberate Michigan... and on and on and on...)