WBB: South Carolina [merged thread] - Printable Version
+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: WBB: South Carolina [merged thread] (/thread-23757.html)
+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: WBB: South Carolina [merged thread] (/thread-23757.html)
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - TheFarm07 - 11-21-2022
(11-21-2022, 06:09 AM)81alum Wrote:(11-21-2022, 04:14 AM)M T Wrote: I would say the worst was with 16 seconds left in regulation, up 4, not guarding her player on the 3pt line. Unfortunately, that's typical of her and it looked to me like SoCar was taking advantage of it.We have noticed this and commented on this about her in previous years. It is hard for me to believe, however, that these are all mistakes on Jones's part, because it seems so obvious. Someone gets the ball and Jones will make no effort to close or contest the shot, but just watches. I've speculated before that this may be part of the scouting report. Tara will sometimes tell her team not to contest shots by the opposing team's weakest jump shooter, but instead to hang back so you can double on anyone that shooter might pass to. This is also probably what Staley meant when she said her team did better when it learned to "take what the defense gives you" rather than trying to force it.
Could this be a plausible explanation for the many obvious times that Jones has allowed uncontested shots over the years? I just find it hard to believe that she would consistently just watch someone shoot and then receive praise from Tara. It makes more sense that she is acting on instructions of some sort that we don't know about, since MT is absolutely right that this is something of a pattern of what Jones does on defense.
If your hypothesis is correct, I wonder what the threshold is in terms of allowing players to be left open are? Shooting percentages under 30%? We've singled out Jones, but have other players left shooters opened as well? And to ask the underlying, most important question, how often have we been burned using this strategy?
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - 81alum - 11-21-2022
(11-21-2022, 08:14 AM)TheFarm07 Wrote:In this case, we know for a fact that Jones was expected to double on Boston whenever she got the ball. She may also have been attempting to deny her the ball. So Prechtel or whoever was guarding Boston, but Jones would frequently double down on Boston. It was pretty effective--much more effective than when anyone tried to guard Boston alone, anyway.(11-21-2022, 06:09 AM)81alum Wrote:(11-21-2022, 04:14 AM)M T Wrote: I would say the worst was with 16 seconds left in regulation, up 4, not guarding her player on the 3pt line. Unfortunately, that's typical of her and it looked to me like SoCar was taking advantage of it.We have noticed this and commented on this about her in previous years. It is hard for me to believe, however, that these are all mistakes on Jones's part, because it seems so obvious. Someone gets the ball and Jones will make no effort to close or contest the shot, but just watches. I've speculated before that this may be part of the scouting report. Tara will sometimes tell her team not to contest shots by the opposing team's weakest jump shooter, but instead to hang back so you can double on anyone that shooter might pass to. This is also probably what Staley meant when she said her team did better when it learned to "take what the defense gives you" rather than trying to force it.
Could this be a plausible explanation for the many obvious times that Jones has allowed uncontested shots over the years? I just find it hard to believe that she would consistently just watch someone shoot and then receive praise from Tara. It makes more sense that she is acting on instructions of some sort that we don't know about, since MT is absolutely right that this is something of a pattern of what Jones does on defense.
If your hypothesis is correct, I wonder what the threshold is in terms of allowing players to be left open are? Shooting percentages under 30%? We've singled out Jones, but have other players left shooters opened as well? And to ask the underlying, most important question, how often have we been burned using this strategy?
If Jones came out to contest a three point shot, then the shooter might have passed to Boston and Jones would have been out of position.
So this game it may have been dictated by our efforts against Boston rather than playing the percentage on any particular three point shooter. Comments by Tara and Dawn sort of hinted at this. Tara did say we doubled Boston but that there was always a cost--pick your poison. Maybe Jones just standing there was the cost.
We can try asking about this at the next chalk talk. We can also go back and look at the video to see if this is borne out.
Edit: I just went back to watch that particular three point shot that MT referenced. It is at 1:50:13 of the posted video. Jones was playing way back, as if she were in a zone, but she did rush out, leaped, and contested the shot. I thought it was a decent effort--not as good an effort as if she had been glued to her player from the start. But if Jones had been guarding the line then she would have been unavailable to help if Boston, who was also playing out, drove on the basket. In other words, Jones's unsuccessful effort was not terrible, and certainly seems to me to be a product of whatever defense assigned her to sag toward the paint.
This does not change our overall impressions, however. I have seen Jones watch a shooter shoot numerous times over the years. This was not one of those times.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - chimera - 11-21-2022
I'm guessing we were doubling their posts a lot and since they generally are not a great three-ball shooting team, leaving open a select player or two. I also think I was a bit too down on Jones yesterday. Several of her drives where she tried tough shots and missed were at the end of the shot clock where they gave her the ball and essentially asked her to make a play. She did not come through and forced some shots but the root cause was the whole team offense stagnating for long stretches. Her bad shooting night was on her and also on the team for asking her to bail out dying shot clock possessions.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - 81alum - 11-21-2022
(11-21-2022, 09:09 AM)chimera Wrote: Her bad shooting night was on her and also on the team for asking her to bail out dying shot clock possessions.Spot on. Plus South Carolina knew with a greater and greater certainty that it would be Jones taking the last shot--especially the 50% of the time when Brink was out--which made it worse and worse as the game progressed. She was surprising nobody and so long as Jump was closely guarded they could put 2-3 on Jones in the last 8 seconds of the shot clock.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - VisitingCock - 11-21-2022
(11-20-2022, 05:41 PM)81alum Wrote: Just getting home after the overtime and the long wait to hear from Tara and Dawn. In reading this thread I find myself much happier with our athletes than some other Cardboarders.
Negatives:
Let's get the true negatives out of the way--the inbounds that failed when Jones couldn't find anyone, Lepolo reversed direction or it would have been an easy inbounds. I have no idea what went wrong there, but it was a critical failure. And then the timeout that wasn't. The coaches should have made sure that the players all understood the game situation and clearly they did not. Tara mentioned both of these during her behind-the-bench talk. She knows how important they were.
Also on the negative side of the ledger were our 22 turnovers. In fact, I do attribute our loss mainly to those, given that South Carolina had only 11. Hard to give the other side 11 more chances and expect to win. South Carolina is longer and more athletic than most other teams in the nation, which usually translates into a lot of deflected passes and turnovers. Good for our players to experience that now rather in the tournament for the first time.
If not the turnovers, the loss could equally be attributed to Brink's 5 fouls. She was our best offensive weapon and our offense stagnated without her. Boston committed egregious fouls that were not called when she had 4, but Brink got caught (and the fifth, in my opinion, was a legitimate foul but not exactly egregious.)
Jones did not appear to play well, but I believe that was for two reasons: 1) South Carolina keyed on her, and 2) she was always the player with the ball at the end of the shot clock trying to make something happen. She seemed to be the only person who would take a shot at the end of the shot clock, and South Carolina knew that. Once we got under 10 seconds they all just mobbed her. Plus she has been in a bit of a slump and it continues. But for the person who watched 5 minutes and pronounced judgment: she did have 6 assists and 9 rebounds, and a decent first half, although her offense did look bad at the end.
We also missed 4 free throws. We shot 73% which is not horrific, but a couple of the misses came late when we most needed them.
Positives.
South Carolina is the most relentless and successful rebounding team in the nation, and we out rebounded them. Offensive rebounds were essentially even. That is a gigantic feat.
Our passing was superior to South Carolina's, by quite a margin. 15 assists to 9 assists.
The scouting report defense worked to a T. We held Boston down most of the game, and held Cooke to 3/13. Our athletes did what the coaches asked them to do.
Brink's offensive play was outstanding. Again, it was the fouls. But she was able to hit enough treys to force the defense to come to her, and then she could attack the basket. Staley singled her out for praise.
Lepolo more than held her own, showing some offense and good ball handling, generating 6 assists to 3 turnovers.
Analysis and Questions:
Iriafen, who has been so good around the block, was clearly bothered by the aggressive defense by big posts, and was not her usual self around the basket. But she has a terrific jump shot. Why did she not do some jumpers?
During the chalk talk Kate mentioned that South Carolina would hang all over Jump, and we would need to run some screens for her. We did once or twice and it worked. Why did we not do more of that? This reminds me so much of Karlie's senior year--good teams shut her down by denying her the ball.
Betts was 2/2. Why did we not give her more minutes? What was it about her brief time in the game that made Tara decide she was not ready for more? Was she victimized on defense?
The game was not officiated well, although presumably the bad calls evened out.
I entirely agree that the game may have turned on the ref's call that gave Emma-Nnopu two shots rather than an and-one. That was an egregious call coming at a critical moment. At first I did not understand what had happened, since the correct call was so obvious.
Boston in the fourth quarter was getting away with ridiculous fouling when on defense. In one case she draped her arms over the shoulders of Jones, from behind, holding both arms back. I guess players-of-the-year can get away with that. I think South Carolina's defense "improved" in the fourth quarter when the refs stopped calling the game so tightly. But while Boston could pin both arms of her mark, Brink got ejected for brushing a forearm while blocking a shot.
Conclusion:
South Carolina played two worthy opponents before us, this was our first real test. We need a lot more games like this to challenge us and help us develop--we are a significantly younger team that South Carolina. In fact, even before the game I was mulling over whether a win or a loss would be more valuable to us, given that we have crushed a lot of weaklings before now and could become overconfident. I am concerned about seeding implications for the NCAAs, but not too concerned. As we know from the past, if you aspire to win a natty, it matters not one whet whether you are seeded first or second. So as a fan I am disappointed--I had hoped for better--but if I were a coach I might be fine with this result, giving me a way of getting the athletes to focus on necessary improvements, and a few were exposed as such.
Excellent analysis.
I would add some statistical factors related to fresh legs. Our bench outscored Stanford's bench 34-9. We played 12 players. Stanford played 11. We had three bench players who had double digit minutes. Stanford had only one. Our starters played 133 minutes. Stanford's starters played 172 minutes. Our starters were much fresher at the end of the fourth quarter and overtime. (I was surprised at Betts' limited minutes, but our freshman big, Ashlyn Watkins, only got 4 minutes as well.)
You guys have an excellent team and I love our youngish rivalry! 1/2 ranking doesn't matter. There are only two regionals, Greenville, SC and Spokane, WA. Rank-wise and for geographic reasons, we will be in separate regionals. The question is: where will UConn end up?
Have a great year. Hope to see you at the end.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - chimera - 11-21-2022
Thanks for dropping by and good luck to you as well going forward. I think you bring up a great point that has been nagging at me. We did not use our bench as much as I thought, mostly Betts and Nivar, and I think the team suffered for it in the end. We've played more games this early than usual but all have been the sort where nobody needs to play big minutes. Suddenly our key players were asked to play big minutes against an excellent and physical team. Maybe some of what we bemoan as bad play was due to being just a bit tired, mentally and physically? There was a lot of hype for this game, which can be draining as well. I don't think that will be a problem as the season goes on, but maybe in this game it was just a bit.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - TheWildJacko - 11-21-2022
(11-21-2022, 09:41 AM)VisitingCock Wrote:(11-20-2022, 05:41 PM)81alum Wrote: Just getting home after the overtime and the long wait to hear from Tara and Dawn. In reading this thread I find myself much happier with our athletes than some other Cardboarders.
Negatives:
Let's get the true negatives out of the way--the inbounds that failed when Jones couldn't find anyone, Lepolo reversed direction or it would have been an easy inbounds. I have no idea what went wrong there, but it was a critical failure. And then the timeout that wasn't. The coaches should have made sure that the players all understood the game situation and clearly they did not. Tara mentioned both of these during her behind-the-bench talk. She knows how important they were.
Also on the negative side of the ledger were our 22 turnovers. In fact, I do attribute our loss mainly to those, given that South Carolina had only 11. Hard to give the other side 11 more chances and expect to win. South Carolina is longer and more athletic than most other teams in the nation, which usually translates into a lot of deflected passes and turnovers. Good for our players to experience that now rather in the tournament for the first time.
If not the turnovers, the loss could equally be attributed to Brink's 5 fouls. She was our best offensive weapon and our offense stagnated without her. Boston committed egregious fouls that were not called when she had 4, but Brink got caught (and the fifth, in my opinion, was a legitimate foul but not exactly egregious.)
Jones did not appear to play well, but I believe that was for two reasons: 1) South Carolina keyed on her, and 2) she was always the player with the ball at the end of the shot clock trying to make something happen. She seemed to be the only person who would take a shot at the end of the shot clock, and South Carolina knew that. Once we got under 10 seconds they all just mobbed her. Plus she has been in a bit of a slump and it continues. But for the person who watched 5 minutes and pronounced judgment: she did have 6 assists and 9 rebounds, and a decent first half, although her offense did look bad at the end.
We also missed 4 free throws. We shot 73% which is not horrific, but a couple of the misses came late when we most needed them.
Positives.
South Carolina is the most relentless and successful rebounding team in the nation, and we out rebounded them. Offensive rebounds were essentially even. That is a gigantic feat.
Our passing was superior to South Carolina's, by quite a margin. 15 assists to 9 assists.
The scouting report defense worked to a T. We held Boston down most of the game, and held Cooke to 3/13. Our athletes did what the coaches asked them to do.
Brink's offensive play was outstanding. Again, it was the fouls. But she was able to hit enough treys to force the defense to come to her, and then she could attack the basket. Staley singled her out for praise.
Lepolo more than held her own, showing some offense and good ball handling, generating 6 assists to 3 turnovers.
Analysis and Questions:
Iriafen, who has been so good around the block, was clearly bothered by the aggressive defense by big posts, and was not her usual self around the basket. But she has a terrific jump shot. Why did she not do some jumpers?
During the chalk talk Kate mentioned that South Carolina would hang all over Jump, and we would need to run some screens for her. We did once or twice and it worked. Why did we not do more of that? This reminds me so much of Karlie's senior year--good teams shut her down by denying her the ball.
Betts was 2/2. Why did we not give her more minutes? What was it about her brief time in the game that made Tara decide she was not ready for more? Was she victimized on defense?
The game was not officiated well, although presumably the bad calls evened out.
I entirely agree that the game may have turned on the ref's call that gave Emma-Nnopu two shots rather than an and-one. That was an egregious call coming at a critical moment. At first I did not understand what had happened, since the correct call was so obvious.
Boston in the fourth quarter was getting away with ridiculous fouling when on defense. In one case she draped her arms over the shoulders of Jones, from behind, holding both arms back. I guess players-of-the-year can get away with that. I think South Carolina's defense "improved" in the fourth quarter when the refs stopped calling the game so tightly. But while Boston could pin both arms of her mark, Brink got ejected for brushing a forearm while blocking a shot.
Conclusion:
South Carolina played two worthy opponents before us, this was our first real test. We need a lot more games like this to challenge us and help us develop--we are a significantly younger team that South Carolina. In fact, even before the game I was mulling over whether a win or a loss would be more valuable to us, given that we have crushed a lot of weaklings before now and could become overconfident. I am concerned about seeding implications for the NCAAs, but not too concerned. As we know from the past, if you aspire to win a natty, it matters not one whet whether you are seeded first or second. So as a fan I am disappointed--I had hoped for better--but if I were a coach I might be fine with this result, giving me a way of getting the athletes to focus on necessary improvements, and a few were exposed as such.
Excellent analysis.
I would add some statistical factors related to fresh legs. Our bench outscored Stanford's bench 34-9. We played 12 players. Stanford played 11. We had three bench players who had double digit minutes. Stanford had only one. Our starters played 133 minutes. Stanford's starters played 172 minutes. Our starters were much fresher at the end of the fourth quarter and overtime. (I was surprised at Betts' limited minutes, but our freshman big, Ashlyn Watkins, only got 4 minutes as well.)
You guys have an excellent team and I love our youngish rivalry! 1/2 ranking doesn't matter. There are only two regionals, Greenville, SC and Spokane, WA. Rank-wise and for geographic reasons, we will be in separate regionals. The question is: where will UConn end up?
Have a great year. Hope to see you at the end.
Congrats on the win—I hope we get the chance to avenge it in April! I think the bench factor you cited was brobdingnagian. I was really hoping Betts would stay in for longer or that they would give her a shot in Q4/OT, but sadly no. Watkins only got 4 minutes but she also picked up 2 quick fouls (not a knock on her, just a likely explanation of why she didn’t play more). Betts hit both her shots and seemed to be playing well (although others note she was pulled after putting the ball on the floor near the basket and turning it over). I think Betts could have played more. Also, Elena Bosgana didn’t play at all? Why? We could have used another slasher/shooter on the floor towards the end. Really think we could have won this game but South Carolina played to their strengths at the end, took us out of our game, and ultimately took the game away from us.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - TonyLima - 11-21-2022
(11-20-2022, 07:07 PM)M T Wrote: It was a #1 vs #2 match-up that went to OT. Can't say either of these teams is a much better than the other.
IIRC, SoCar never led in regulation, and only tied it up at the very end (sound familiar?).
I'm sure each team can't believe some of the calls. I saw lots of stuff not get called. (Brink's charging foul at 4Q 9:13: The defender throws her head back in a flop I don't think Brink touched her above the knees. Brink probably would have touched her, but that's not what happened. Nivar did a flop at Q4 5:30. Q4 14.9 Does Staley even know the rule about the coach's box?)
Each team will improve. For instance, Iriafin has a lot to learn. For instance at 0:24 in OT, she jumps toward the ball on a FT rebound rather than straight up. I believe if she'd have jumped vertically, her arms would reach the ball and the player behind her would have been called for the foul (as her arms would be across her shoulders).
I have to believe the coaches did not tell the players that they were out of time-outs late in OT. Everyone on the floor acted normally when it was called.
I consider 11 of 15 FT a good night. I commend Brink for going 7 of 8.
Believe SC led 2-0. Hardly matters. Nitpicky today.
(11-21-2022, 09:41 AM)VisitingCock Wrote:(11-20-2022, 05:41 PM)81alum Wrote: Just getting home after the overtime and the long wait to hear from Tara and Dawn. In reading this thread I find myself much happier with our athletes than some other Cardboarders.
Negatives:
Let's get the true negatives out of the way--the inbounds that failed when Jones couldn't find anyone, Lepolo reversed direction or it would have been an easy inbounds. I have no idea what went wrong there, but it was a critical failure. And then the timeout that wasn't. The coaches should have made sure that the players all understood the game situation and clearly they did not. Tara mentioned both of these during her behind-the-bench talk. She knows how important they were.
Also on the negative side of the ledger were our 22 turnovers. In fact, I do attribute our loss mainly to those, given that South Carolina had only 11. Hard to give the other side 11 more chances and expect to win. South Carolina is longer and more athletic than most other teams in the nation, which usually translates into a lot of deflected passes and turnovers. Good for our players to experience that now rather in the tournament for the first time.
If not the turnovers, the loss could equally be attributed to Brink's 5 fouls. She was our best offensive weapon and our offense stagnated without her. Boston committed egregious fouls that were not called when she had 4, but Brink got caught (and the fifth, in my opinion, was a legitimate foul but not exactly egregious.)
Jones did not appear to play well, but I believe that was for two reasons: 1) South Carolina keyed on her, and 2) she was always the player with the ball at the end of the shot clock trying to make something happen. She seemed to be the only person who would take a shot at the end of the shot clock, and South Carolina knew that. Once we got under 10 seconds they all just mobbed her. Plus she has been in a bit of a slump and it continues. But for the person who watched 5 minutes and pronounced judgment: she did have 6 assists and 9 rebounds, and a decent first half, although her offense did look bad at the end.
We also missed 4 free throws. We shot 73% which is not horrific, but a couple of the misses came late when we most needed them.
Positives.
South Carolina is the most relentless and successful rebounding team in the nation, and we out rebounded them. Offensive rebounds were essentially even. That is a gigantic feat.
Our passing was superior to South Carolina's, by quite a margin. 15 assists to 9 assists.
The scouting report defense worked to a T. We held Boston down most of the game, and held Cooke to 3/13. Our athletes did what the coaches asked them to do.
Brink's offensive play was outstanding. Again, it was the fouls. But she was able to hit enough treys to force the defense to come to her, and then she could attack the basket. Staley singled her out for praise.
Lepolo more than held her own, showing some offense and good ball handling, generating 6 assists to 3 turnovers.
Analysis and Questions:
Iriafen, who has been so good around the block, was clearly bothered by the aggressive defense by big posts, and was not her usual self around the basket. But she has a terrific jump shot. Why did she not do some jumpers?
During the chalk talk Kate mentioned that South Carolina would hang all over Jump, and we would need to run some screens for her. We did once or twice and it worked. Why did we not do more of that? This reminds me so much of Karlie's senior year--good teams shut her down by denying her the ball.
Betts was 2/2. Why did we not give her more minutes? What was it about her brief time in the game that made Tara decide she was not ready for more? Was she victimized on defense?
The game was not officiated well, although presumably the bad calls evened out.
I entirely agree that the game may have turned on the ref's call that gave Emma-Nnopu two shots rather than an and-one. That was an egregious call coming at a critical moment. At first I did not understand what had happened, since the correct call was so obvious.
Boston in the fourth quarter was getting away with ridiculous fouling when on defense. In one case she draped her arms over the shoulders of Jones, from behind, holding both arms back. I guess players-of-the-year can get away with that. I think South Carolina's defense "improved" in the fourth quarter when the refs stopped calling the game so tightly. But while Boston could pin both arms of her mark, Brink got ejected for brushing a forearm while blocking a shot.
Conclusion:
South Carolina played two worthy opponents before us, this was our first real test. We need a lot more games like this to challenge us and help us develop--we are a significantly younger team that South Carolina. In fact, even before the game I was mulling over whether a win or a loss would be more valuable to us, given that we have crushed a lot of weaklings before now and could become overconfident. I am concerned about seeding implications for the NCAAs, but not too concerned. As we know from the past, if you aspire to win a natty, it matters not one whet whether you are seeded first or second. So as a fan I am disappointed--I had hoped for better--but if I were a coach I might be fine with this result, giving me a way of getting the athletes to focus on necessary improvements, and a few were exposed as such.
Excellent analysis.
I would add some statistical factors related to fresh legs. Our bench outscored Stanford's bench 34-9. We played 12 players. Stanford played 11. We had three bench players who had double digit minutes. Stanford had only one. Our starters played 133 minutes. Stanford's starters played 172 minutes. Our starters were much fresher at the end of the fourth quarter and overtime. (I was surprised at Betts' limited minutes, but our freshman big, Ashlyn Watkins, only got 4 minutes as well.)
You guys have an excellent team and I love our youngish rivalry! 1/2 ranking doesn't matter. There are only two regionals, Greenville, SC and Spokane, WA. Rank-wise and for geographic reasons, we will be in separate regionals. The question is: where will UConn end up?
Have a great year. Hope to see you at the end.
TYVM. Many good points. See you in March!
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - cardfan1996 - 11-21-2022
In defense of Haley:
1. Sacrificing her game, possibly end season awards and WNBA draft stock and her best position (4) to play the 3 position because coaches have told her this is what is best for the team. She IS an All-American at the 4 spot, not 3 and sure as hell not the 1. And I think she is a better 4 than Kiki but Cam is emerging as the best 4 (not 5) of them all.
2. Tara gave Haley 1 minute rest in an OT handling at least 40% of ballhandling duties and much of it without another person on the floor that can get there own shot because Cam was in foul trouble. She was extraordinary in the Final Four in 2021 because she was in foul trouble and had significant rest in both the S.Carolina and Arizona games. It is neither normal nor healthy for players to play a full game plus OT without rest. Dawn used television timeouts and end of quarters to sneak in rest for her players she will need during winning time. Tara has never cared about this to my knowledge.
3. Related to #2, in the last decade the only starting point guard that wasn’t a significant scoring threat but was able to “set the table” for others to score on her team was Ty Harris in 2017. Ty is a WNBA player. But in even that case, the other guards on the floor contributed in the scoring column. Hannah is a great shooter but she has never been able to move without the ball effectively enough after the Sweet Sixteen to be much more than a valuable floor spacer for inside players. Caveat: I can’t find 2013 box scores but must assume Bria Hartley who was on the all-tourney team took much of Doty’s minutes. Kiana in 2021 was probably Stanford’s leading scorer going into the tourney and she didn’t play well because she was #1 on every scouting report to stop (luckily, Haley Jones, legitimate Stanford savior in the Final Fours in both 2021 and 2022 emerged).
Legitimately surprised to read the Haley takes given what she has done for this program and how she is sacrificing her game so Kiki can enter the starting lineup.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - TheWildJacko - 11-21-2022
I agree with you re: Haley, I think she had a bad half/OT but people are laying way too much blame on her for what was collectively a team failure to retain a late-game lead. My only issue with Haley’s game is that she seems to try the crossing-under-the basket, behind the back layup way too often, and while she is clearly better at it than most (and it’s very hard to defend when well-executed), it’s not a high percentage shot to begin with. I would love to see her stop-and-pop more often.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - cardfan1996 - 11-21-2022
It was S.Carolina. Their Bigs rival our Bigs. As an example, Kiki would have had easy layups at the rim to start the game against literally any other team in Div 1 basketball but even S.Carolina’s athleticism at the rim bothered her.
So Haley was doing what you try to do going up against elite shot blockers - reverse it and use the rim to avoid the shot blocker
Dawn tried all of her best defenders (Beal) on Haley until she settled on Amihere who is a quick twitch athlete of another dimension. Unlike Beal, Amihere can not only go stride for stride on any dribble penetration like a guard but also challenge Haley at the rim with her 6’10” wingspan (longer than Boston and Cardozo). Beal is too short. Amihere is an evolved super athlete that is very rare in the women’s game - both cat quick and long. It was just better defense, and Stanford couldn’t move on to the next option because that option had fouled out. Defenses like UConn, Texas and S.Carolina turn you into 1-on-1 by design, and so you need more people on the floor that can operate accordingly
Edited to add: Difficult to stop and pop without any legs. Jump shooters need rest to be effective in the 4th quarter.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - 81alum - 11-21-2022
(11-21-2022, 02:17 PM)cardfan1996 Wrote: In defense of Haley:Is the 4 her natural spot? She is glorious around the basket, but she is quite short for a 4, particularly against a team like South Carolina. And I thought that her pro prospects would substantially improve as she proves her versatility--that is partly how the move was justified.
1. Sacrificing her game, possibly end season awards and WNBA draft stock and her best position (4) to play the 3 position because coaches have told her this is what is best for the team. She IS an All-American at the 4 spot, not 3 and sure as hell not the 1. And I think she is a better 4 than Kiki but Cam is emerging as the best 4 (not 5) of them all.
That said, the "positionless basketball" that we seem to be playing ought to favor a versatile player like her. However, I am all for putting her in whatever position gets her out of her slump and lets her be the best she can be. We need that.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - cardfan1996 - 11-21-2022
(11-21-2022, 02:53 PM)81alum Wrote:(11-21-2022, 02:17 PM)cardfan1996 Wrote: In defense of Haley:Is the 4 her natural spot? She is glorious around the basket, but she is quite short for a 4, particularly against a team like South Carolina. And I thought that her pro prospects would substantially improve as she proves her versatility--that is partly how the move was justified.
1. Sacrificing her game, possibly end season awards and WNBA draft stock and her best position (4) to play the 3 position because coaches have told her this is what is best for the team. She IS an All-American at the 4 spot, not 3 and sure as hell not the 1. And I think she is a better 4 than Kiki but Cam is emerging as the best 4 (not 5) of them all.
That said, the "positionless basketball" that we seem to be playing ought to favor a versatile player like her. However, I am all for putting her in whatever position gets her out of her slump and lets her be the best she can be. We need that.
Haley created matchup problems as a 4 against S.Carolina and Arizona in 2021 and UConn didn’t have an answer for her in 2022. More importantly, she is a 1st team All American at the 4 position
To move her to the 3, she has to be able to consistently hit a 3-pter and she is a career under 30% shooter. In fact, her 3-pt shot only magically came online in 2021 and quickly disappeared by 2022. That is not a strength in her game. Neither is defending a 3 player on the other team so yes, I think her natural position is a 4. She defends well-enough in the post and certainly she is a much better defender there than on the perimeter where she has to possibly chase after quicker players around brutal screens. And she has to do all this now, handling 40% of the ballhandling with ZERO rest. Yet she gets the criticism?
Edited to add: Having to account for Ashten on the perimeter on offense and Cam in the paint, allows Haley to operate in her zone if genius - driving to the basket.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - chimera - 11-21-2022
I agree we were too harsh about Jones and that she needed more rest. I think generally the bench should have gotten more minutes - Betts, Nivar and maybe try Bosgana a bit. I also think that the coaches needed to make some adjustments when the team got bogged down on offense. They kept the same people out there doing the same things for the most part, and it never did get much better.
I don't think the issue for Jones is that she is not at the 4, rather it is that thus far she has not gotten her three point shooting going, which makes her drives too hard with the defense keying on her favorite moves. I don't think playing the three at Stanford should be a problem for her compared to the 4. I mean, her versatility is one of her main attributes. If she can only play optimally at the 4 even just in college, that isn't so versatile. In the pros ideally she would be a three where her passing and ball handling would be a positive, and her driving ability. She needs a better three ball for that though. If she was a reliable three point shooter, her life on the perimeter would be much, much easier. She would be a monster with a three point shot. I think that was sort of the plan/hope - that her threes, which she was hitting in the NCAAs and in big games sometimes, would become a regular part of her game this season. So far that has not happened. She needs threes to be a great pro, that is for sure. The pros will be like playing SC times 10 every game.
I do think the pg stuff is far from ideal for Jones. What else can they do but play her at the three? We have too many good bigs for them to all sit on the bench and if she was the 4, who then is the 3? Demetre may not be a good enough perimeter defender. Bosgana maybe? Go with three guards like Lepolo, Nivar and Jump? Doesn't seem to play to the strength of the team, if they did that.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - cardfan1996 - 11-21-2022
Haley has to be able to shoot 3s at a 37% clip AND defend the 3 at the next level too. So it’s more than just having a reliable 3-Pt. Otherwise she is a “tweener.” The current lineup is not helping to showcase her strengths which are driving to the basket for a 15-18 foot jumper or layup. That made her unstoppable.
You can’t lose Kiki to the transfer portal so she can’t sit idle on the bench because whatever her value is now and will be next year at Stanford is nothing compared to what it would be in her hometown of Los Angeles paired with Juju or Kiki Rice. Too big of a risk to switch out Ashten so you play them roughly equal time. I think after Haley and Cam, you got to keep Kiki happy with the playing time. Nivar is 4th.
The biggest loser has been Fran, moving from 1st or 2nd off the bench to pretty much being situational. I don’t love her defense and she is a tweener without even a jump shot but that must be difficult for her.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - chimera - 11-21-2022
Yeah, I feel for Belibi as well. She just doesn't have the size to match up with the best bigs we face, that thumb injury is surely not helping her, and lack of a short jumper is another issue. She is too good to sit but given the roster, very hard to get her meaningful minutes.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - qwerty49 - 11-21-2022
I recorded the game and stayed up very late last night to watch it. Jeez what a heartbreaker.
After sleeping on it I put this one mainly on Tara. In reverse order:
1) I'm assuming she didn't tell the players we were out of TO's?
2) Don't we have a special inbounds play for situations where we cannot afford a 5-second call?
3) At one point the announcers noted that Haley had played every minute of the game. I think it affected her ever-so-slightly by the 4th Q when she just could not come through. In the paint, Haley has the "drive" part down, but "dish" seems to be another story. And no one seems to come to help out.
4) 2nd Q was really terrible as well. Whatever offensive combo was out there was simply not working. Looking back, we were up 10 after 1Q and also after 3Q. Just seemed like we got too tight out there.
5) Most of the game was 4 on 4 with Jump being blanketed in the corner. One would think that would work to our advantage with slashers like Jones and Lepolo. But we had no answer.
Brink's foul trouble, as chimera pointed out, was one of the biggest factors in this loss. When Brink went to the bench, and with Jones less than fully effective and Jump covered tightly, we just had no offense.
Even before the timeout fiasco, I was thinking this was Iriafen's worst game ever. SC had a lot of very athletic people guarding her. In retrospect, SC was monstrously more athletic than we were. We're not bad, but they are a level higher.
I hope we now know that we could have won this game, and I hope the team does what's needed to keep this as a chip on their shoulder until March.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - cardfan1996 - 11-21-2022
You need a reliable “perimeter” scorer and Hannah has been thus far unable to convert herself into one. But you have to have her on the floor because of spacing so at least her defender stays attached to allow the Bigs to go 1 on 1. Hannah was protected and was seemingly on Beal a lot which is more of a roamer defender role where you don’t expend a lot of energy chasing (normally this was Haley’s defensive assignment). But I need to watch again. And since Haley is not a “perimeter” scorer, and Hannah will be face guarded, who can be that Lexie Hull person in the current starting lineup?And this is ultimately my issue with Lepolo’s skillset. She was surprisingly better on defense than I’d previously seen (not a mark at all for the first time) but with help to contain Cooke then the wheels fell off for everyone in 4th on offense and defense. And 6pts, 3 turnovers, 5 assist(?) is probably the best she can play against the elite athleticism of S. Carolina and maybe if Haley and Cam are both going bonkers, that stat line is good enough. But it’s hard to win the big one without your point guard being a significant scoring threat that other teams must gameplan against. Has only happened once in the last decade on championship teams.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - TheWildJacko - 11-21-2022
Belibi has, in the past, been a terrific defender, especially with respect to shot-blocking and causing all sorts of problems for both post and perimeter players. I think what we’re seeing from her this year is mostly due to the injury and possibly not getting into the flow of the game due to less playing time. I have faith that as she heals and the lineup gels we’ll start to see her have a larger and more effective role.
RE: WBB vs South Carolina Game Thread - 81alum - 11-21-2022
(11-21-2022, 04:05 PM)qwerty49 Wrote: 4) 2nd Q was really terrible as well. Whatever offensive combo was out there was simply not working. Looking back, we were up 10 after 1Q and also after 3Q. Just seemed like we got too tight out there.Boston was out the entire second quarter--we should have built up much more than a 10 point lead. But South Carolina outscored us 20-14 in the 2nd without Boston. We went stagnant and our defense seems to have had problems when its main focus was sitting on the bench.