Outside Topic Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Printable Version
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triangle2 - triangle2 - 11-29-2021
I assume that Seiya Suzuki got posted. I wonder if someone (Giants?) can sign him before the CBO expires. Seems like not a lot of press so far but would be a BFD if it happened.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Phogge - 11-29-2021
BC, if Stanford had a QB as talented as Cousins I don't care where he would line up. He is definitely not a statue.
RE: lex24 - DC 86 - 11-29-2021
(11-29-2021, 08:38 AM)lex24 Wrote: If Giants refuse to go more than 4 years, they can forget signing any key FA. Still think Marte was a great option
I don't think that SF has a rigid policy on contract length, but if they offer a long term contract it won't be to an older player.
Marte is a very good player who would help any team, but it would have been a surprise for Farhan to offer four years (at almost $20 mm/year) to a player who's already 33 years old and who derives a lot of his value from speed and the ability to play centerfield.
Moreover, under Zaidi the Giants have prioritized hitter BB/K ratio and improved every season since 2018. Many of the under-the-radar acquisitions under this front office (Wade being the most notable) were driven by this metric. Marte's career 20% K rate and 5% BB rate is the antithesis of this approach, so he had a lot working against him in terms of the player valuation models that SF uses.
RE: triangle2 - Giants - 11-29-2021
(11-29-2021, 10:37 AM)triangle2 Wrote: I assume that Seiya Suzuki got posted. I wonder if someone (Giants?) can sign him before the CBO expires. Seems like not a lot of press so far but would be a BFD if it happened.
He did post. The 30 day signing window clock is now ticking. However, the clock will be stopped from the time the lockout begins to the date of a new agreement. At that point, the clock will resume.
(11-29-2021, 01:15 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(11-29-2021, 08:38 AM)lex24 Wrote: If Giants refuse to go more than 4 years, they can forget signing any key FA. Still think Marte was a great option
I don't think that SF has a rigid policy on contract length, but if they offer a long term contract it won't be to an older player.
Marte is a very good player who would help any team, but it would have been a surprise for Farhan to offer four years (at almost $20 mm/year) to a player who's already 33 years old and who derives a lot of his value from speed and the ability to play centerfield.
Moreover, under Zaidi the Giants have prioritized hitter BB/K ratio and improved every season since 2018. Many of the under-the-radar acquisitions under this front office (Wade being the most notable) were driven by this metric. Marte's career 20% K rate and 5% BB rate is the antithesis of this approach, so he had a lot working against him in terms of the player valuation models that SF uses.
Marte was overpaid by an organization that is under enormous pressure to do something… anything…
The Scherzer signing is another good example of the Mets throwing money down the drain. 3 years/$130 million?? That is crazy……
I much prefer a more methodical, analytics-based approach to free agency signings. Otherwise, it is just dumping cash in the sewer…..
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Mick - 11-29-2021
(11-28-2021, 09:00 PM)old spanish trail Wrote:(11-28-2021, 08:00 PM)Giants Wrote: Gausman to Toronto.
5 years/$110 million.
Good for him. I doubt Fahran would go that high or long.
Former SF wr Bourne sure made a good decision and the Patriots are delighted to have him.
I think a lot of the early free agent signings are panic signings. Gausman hit the 100 inning mark and just melted down. Glad he didn't stick with the Giants. Mets paid $40 mms.+ for three years for a 39 year old pitcher? Jeeeeeez.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - DC 86 - 11-29-2021
(11-29-2021, 04:31 PM)Mick Wrote: Mets paid $40 mms.+ for three years for a 39 year old pitcher? Jeeeeeez.
Not how it's usually phrased, he's still only 37.
Even though it's for a lot more money it makes more sense to me than Verlander's contract, which is a two year, $50 million commitment. Verlander turns 39 in February and has thrown 6 innings since 2019. Scherzer doesn't turn 38 until the end of July next year and has finished in the top-3 in Cy Young voting in five of the last six years (only miss was in the truncated 2020 season).
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Giants - 11-29-2021
Alex Cobb to SF per Jon Heyman of MLB Network. That leaves one opening in the starting 5 (assuming the rumored re-signing of Wood happens).
Also, Seager to TX. 10 years/$325 million. That gives Texas Semien and Seager at a cost of $500 million.
Yikes!
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - DC 86 - 11-29-2021
(11-29-2021, 07:36 PM)Giants Wrote: Alex Cobb to SF per Jon Heyman of MLB Network. That leaves one opening in the starting 5 (assuming the rumored re-signing of Wood happens).
Also, Seager to TX. 10 years/$325 million. That gives Texas Semien and Seager at a cost of $500 million.
Yikes!
Major run on starting pitchers: Robbie Ray to Seattle (5/115) and Jon Gray to Texas (4/56) which leaves Stroman as the most attractive option available (presuming that Kershaw and Greinke fall into a different category.) Carlos Rodon is also out there, injury concern but 28 years old with a very high ceiling if healthy.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - old spanish trail - 11-29-2021
(11-29-2021, 07:36 PM)Giants Wrote: Alex Cobb to SF per Jon Heyman of MLB Network. That leaves one opening in the starting 5 (assuming the rumored re-signing of Wood happens).
Also, Seager to TX. 10 years/$325 million. That gives Texas Semien and Seager at a cost of $500 million.
Yikes!
Yikes is right. I'm thinking they will regret these K's unless there are good out clauses. i wouldn't pay that much for either of them.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Mick - 11-30-2021
Dodgers are moving backwards. Scherzer and Seager are gone. Kershaw, Taylor and Jansen are still free agents.
BTW, Jay Jackson is a loss. His numbers were absurdly good.
And finally, the Collective Bargaining Agreement is over at 9 p.m. on Wed., 12/1, at which point the league will enter a lockout. That will mean a league-wide transaction freeze. Some points:
1) Players want more at the top and bottom.
2) They want reduced penalties for large-payroll teams.
3) Owners want expanded playoffs.
4) Universal DH is on the table.
Pitchers and catchers don't report for 2.5 months, so there's time to negotiate.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - DC 86 - 11-30-2021
(11-30-2021, 12:00 PM)Mick Wrote: Dodgers are moving backwards. Scherzer and Seager are gone. Kershaw, Taylor and Jansen are still free agents.
BTW, Jay Jackson is a loss. His numbers were absurdly good.
And finally, the Collective Bargaining Agreement is over at 9 p.m. on Wed., 12/1, at which point the league will enter a lockout. That will mean a league-wide transaction freeze. Some points:
1) Players want more at the top and bottom.
2) They want reduced penalties for large-payroll teams.
3) Owners want expanded playoffs.
4) Universal DH is on the table.
Pitchers and catchers don't report for 2.5 months, so there's time to negotiate.
The top issue for players is actually reducing the years of team control, i.e. reaching arbitration/free agency earlier so that the majority of players able to establish their true market aren't past their prime. This will be the key issue to resolve, the rest are tradeoffs that are already understood and will happen.
The very aggressive contracts being extended thus far can only be read as being a good sign in terms of management being bullish about the industry which should result in flexibility re labor.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Phogge - 11-30-2021
Good call on Jackson but they had to reduce the roster because of Delaplane. He has plenty of upside. Still sweating out the Rule 5 for Corry. A club without much chance might claim him and swallow the roster spot. A club like the Orioles.
So... Webb, Disco, Wood, Cobb and ? What do you guys think? Is it in the realm of possibility that they offer Kershaw? In ancient Giant history they signed Spahn and Carlton and Randy J at the end of their careers and not much good happened.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - teejers1 - 11-30-2021
(11-30-2021, 12:30 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(11-30-2021, 12:00 PM)Mick Wrote: Dodgers are moving backwards. Scherzer and Seager are gone. Kershaw, Taylor and Jansen are still free agents.
BTW, Jay Jackson is a loss. His numbers were absurdly good.
And finally, the Collective Bargaining Agreement is over at 9 p.m. on Wed., 12/1, at which point the league will enter a lockout. That will mean a league-wide transaction freeze. Some points:
1) Players want more at the top and bottom.
2) They want reduced penalties for large-payroll teams.
3) Owners want expanded playoffs.
4) Universal DH is on the table.
Pitchers and catchers don't report for 2.5 months, so there's time to negotiate.
The top issue for players is actually reducing the years of team control, i.e. reaching arbitration/free agency earlier so that the majority of players able to establish their true market aren't past their prime. This will be the key issue to resolve, the rest are tradeoffs that are already understood and will happen.
The very aggressive contracts being extended thus far can only be read as being a good sign in terms of management being bullish about the industry which should result in flexibility re labor.
I've long believed that the NFL rookie contracts (4 years, plus often a club option for a 5th year) are abusive for simple reason that most NFL careers are 3+ years. The players should be entitled to earn free market salary after 2 years . . . max. And I still believe that.
It just may be true that team control over players' careers in MLB is even more abusive. Reducing the years of team control should be imposed by the Commissioner, if it's not agreed to during CBA. That will never happen, of course, but it should.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Giants - 11-30-2021
(11-30-2021, 12:33 PM)Phogge Wrote: Good call on Jackson but they had to reduce the roster because of Delaplane. He has plenty of upside. Still sweating out the Rule 5 for Corry. A club without much chance might claim him and swallow the roster spot. A club like the Orioles.
So... Webb, Disco, Wood, Cobb and ? What do you guys think? Is it in the realm of possibility that they offer Kershaw? In ancient Giant history they signed Spahn and Carlton and Randy J at the end of their careers and not much good happened.
…and Orel Hershiser
Delaplane, Palumbo and Gonzalez released. Cobb added with two slots being held open (one presumably for Wood)…..No to signing Kershaw (for health reasons). Yes to signing another starter and OF.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - lex24 - 12-01-2021
(11-30-2021, 12:55 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(11-30-2021, 12:30 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(11-30-2021, 12:00 PM)Mick Wrote: Dodgers are moving backwards. Scherzer and Seager are gone. Kershaw, Taylor and Jansen are still free agents.
BTW, Jay Jackson is a loss. His numbers were absurdly good.
And finally, the Collective Bargaining Agreement is over at 9 p.m. on Wed., 12/1, at which point the league will enter a lockout. That will mean a league-wide transaction freeze. Some points:
1) Players want more at the top and bottom.
2) They want reduced penalties for large-payroll teams.
3) Owners want expanded playoffs.
4) Universal DH is on the table.
Pitchers and catchers don't report for 2.5 months, so there's time to negotiate.
The top issue for players is actually reducing the years of team control, i.e. reaching arbitration/free agency earlier so that the majority of players able to establish their true market aren't past their prime. This will be the key issue to resolve, the rest are tradeoffs that are already understood and will happen.
The very aggressive contracts being extended thus far can only be read as being a good sign in terms of management being bullish about the industry which should result in flexibility re labor.
I've long believed that the NFL rookie contracts (4 years, plus often a club option for a 5th year) are abusive for simple reason that most NFL careers are 3+ years. The players should be entitled to earn free market salary after 2 years . . . max. And I still believe that.
It just may be true that team control over players' careers in MLB is even more abusive. Reducing the years of team control should be imposed by the Commissioner, if it's not agreed to during CBA. That will never happen, of course, but it should.
Team control issue is big. It is abusive and has to change. There is time to reach a new CBA. But MLB is so poorly run - on both sides- that they probably wii f it up. Missing games would be catastrophic. They can’t allow that to happen . But they just well might.
(11-30-2021, 12:33 PM)Phogge Wrote: Good call on Jackson but they had to reduce the roster because of Delaplane. He has plenty of upside. Still sweating out the Rule 5 for Corry. A club without much chance might claim him and swallow the roster spot. A club like the Orioles.
So... Webb, Disco, Wood, Cobb and ? What do you guys think? Is it in the realm of possibility that they offer Kershaw? In ancient Giant history they signed Spahn and Carlton and Randy J at the end of their careers and not much good happened.
Jackson was terrific at AAA. Inconsistent with Giants. Logical guy to let go.
No to Kershaw. He has some significant arm and back issues. If, as suspected, they sign Wood, they still need to add at least 1 and preferably 2 starters. I’m thinking they do a deal with A’s for Montas, Bassit or Manea.
Chris Taylor is another priority. But with Seager leaving, he’s more likely to resign with Dodgers. Plus I read he’s now looking at around 75 million for 5 years. Which is similar to Marte (78 for 4 I believe). Taylor is younger and can play both inf and of. But Marte is the better hitter. Has better speed. And would not have cost a compensation pick (Taylor will).
It’s very early. But the Giants badly need to pick up a RH outfield bat and a couple more starting pitchers. It may be more difficult once the lockdown hits.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - BobK - 12-01-2021
Wood signing announced. 2 years $ 25M.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Giants - 12-01-2021
(12-01-2021, 01:15 PM)BobK Wrote: Wood signing announced. 2 years $ 25M.
I like the two year term. So far, Zaidi has done a nice job of signing guys to reasonable contracts. I agree with Phogge re: a RH OF with power (a very good one will cause Zaidi to go outside his financial comfort zone) and a couple more starters, giving SF some wiggle room when one needs some downtime.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Mick - 12-01-2021
(11-30-2021, 12:33 PM)Phogge Wrote: Good call on Jackson but they had to reduce the roster because of Delaplane. He has plenty of upside. Still sweating out the Rule 5 for Corry. A club without much chance might claim him and swallow the roster spot. A club like the Orioles.
So... Webb, Disco, Wood, Cobb and ? What do you guys think? Is it in the realm of possibility that they offer Kershaw? In ancient Giant history they signed Spahn and Carlton and Randy J at the end of their careers and not much good happened.
To the list of pitchers with nothing left that the Giants signed, you can add Hershiser, Zito, Gossage, Peavy, Hudson, Leiter, Darwin, probably others.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - lex24 - 12-01-2021
(12-01-2021, 02:00 PM)Giants Wrote:(12-01-2021, 01:15 PM)BobK Wrote: Wood signing announced. 2 years $ 25M.
I like the two year term. So far, Zaidi has done a nice job of signing guys to reasonable contracts. I agree with Phogge re: a RH OF with power (a very good one will cause Zaidi to go outside his financial comfort zone) and a couple more starters, giving SF some wiggle room when one needs some downtime.
It’s not Zaidi’s money. It his budget. Whatever that may be. If the Giants are going to pretend that they can’t compete money wise, then last year will be an aberration. They have lost Posey and Bryant. They are woefully short of right handed bats. Longer term contracts for hitters have less risk than for pitchers. If they are going to insist that they won’t go over 3 or 4 years, then im not particularly optimistic moving forward. Fortunately, im relatively confident that Zaidi won’t be inflexible.
Again, the Dodgers are the model. Build farm system (check). Find diamonds in the rough (check) AND when the opportunity strikes to sign an occasional whale, do it. (Giants haven’t checked that box).
The Giants should have a very large budget. At or near whatever the figure is they determine for a luxury tax. They are a top 5 team value wise.
Finally, long term contracts may not always pan out as you hope. But you can’t only evaluate on numbers. Zito is a great example. Bad deal. Right? Yet Giants don’t win in ‘12 without him. From an organizational standpoint, that alone made the deal worthwhile.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - DC 86 - 12-01-2021
(12-01-2021, 03:59 PM)lex24 Wrote: It’s not Zaidi’s money. It his budget. Whatever that may be. If the Giants are going to pretend that they can’t compete money wise, then last year will be an aberration. They have lost Posey and Bryant. They are woefully short of right handed bats. Longer term contracts for hitters have less risk than for pitchers. If they are going to insist that they won’t go over 3 or 4 years, then im not particularly optimistic moving forward. Fortunately, im relatively confident that Zaidi won’t be inflexible.
Again, the Dodgers are the model. Build farm system (check). Find diamonds in the rough (check) AND when the opportunity strikes to sign an occasional whale, do it. (Giants haven’t checked that box).
The Giants should have a very large budget. At or near whatever the figure is they determine for a luxury tax. They are a top 5 team value wise.
I agree 100%, except that there's no reason for a high revenue team such as SF not to exceed the luxury tax threshold if warranted. It's a self imposed profit creator, but it's not morally wrong to spend money and it's not going to have any material impact on ownership to exceed whatever the threshold is set at, except for possibly increasing revenue and franchise value if the team wins/draws more fans/maximizes broadcast revenue and merchandise sales. The Dodgers are indeed the model for Zaidi/Giants, and they are a disciplined organization which has nevertheless paid luxury tax when it's been strategically beneficial to do so. Maybe it makes sense this year or not - perhaps not given the remaining free agents available - but I've never understood fans concerned about owners' finances. Steve Cohen is going to pay tens of millions in luxury tax it appears. His net worth is around $16 billion. Maybe that's good or bad for the baseball as a whole, but if I were a Mets fan I would be delighted. The Giants are a high revenue team with a strong fan base, no excuse to cite the tax as a reason not to sign a player who can be the difference between a championship or less.