Outside Topic Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Printable Version
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lex24 - lex24 - 12-27-2021
Dolphins drub Saints. Book played like you’d expect a rookie playing his first game in week 16 against a playoff contender.
Then there’s this nice bit of info from ESPN:
“With the Saints’s 20–3 loss, former Fighting Irish quarterbacks have now lost in 24 consecutive NFL starts, according to ESPN Stats & Info. The streak dates back to 2012, and stands as the longest such drought since 1950.
It started with Brady Quinn, who lost the last four starts of his career with the Chiefs in 2012. The baton was then passed to Jimmy Clausen, who lost the last four starts of his career from 2014–15. Then it was DeShone Kizer’s turn, who lost 15 starts for the Browns in 2017 as Cleveland went winless for the season.
Book’s first career start was a night to forget. He threw an interception that was returned for a touchdown on his second pass attempt of the night. The Saints punted on their next three drives, netting zero combined yards during that stretch, before getting a field goal with under three minutes left in the half.”
We may see Lance this week. Thumb injury to JG. Doesn’t look promising that he will play.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Mick - 12-28-2021
(12-27-2021, 08:43 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(12-27-2021, 07:44 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Wait, when did the playoffs expand to 7 teams per conference? Did that happen with the move to 17 games? Because, apparently there is no such thing as too much football. Golden geese and such.
BC
Actually there were 14 playoff teams last year, as part of the new CBA. The only change this year is that one of the wild card games will be on Monday night.
The 17-game schedule was also part of the new CBA but implementation was delayed until this season.
I may be misremembering, but I believe they cut the number of preseason games to 3, so the same net 20 games during the regular season.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - 82lsju - 12-28-2021
(12-28-2021, 08:37 AM)Mick Wrote:(12-27-2021, 08:43 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(12-27-2021, 07:44 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Wait, when did the playoffs expand to 7 teams per conference? Did that happen with the move to 17 games? Because, apparently there is no such thing as too much football. Golden geese and such.
BC
Actually there were 14 playoff teams last year, as part of the new CBA. The only change this year is that one of the wild card games will be on Monday night.
The 17-game schedule was also part of the new CBA but implementation was delayed until this season.
I may be misremembering, but I believe they cut the number of preseason games to 3, so the same net 20 games during the regular season.
you are correct, only three preseason games in 2021 vs four in 2020. Of course even if you total all their plays most of the starters probably still play less than one preseason game.
RE: lex24 - teejers1 - 12-28-2021
(12-27-2021, 10:42 PM)lex24 Wrote: Dolphins drub Saints. Book played like you’d expect a rookie playing his first game in week 16 against a playoff contender.
Then there’s this nice bit of info from ESPN:
“With the Saints’s 20–3 loss, former Fighting Irish quarterbacks have now lost in 24 consecutive NFL starts, according to ESPN Stats & Info. The streak dates back to 2012, and stands as the longest such drought since 1950.
It started with Brady Quinn, who lost the last four starts of his career with the Chiefs in 2012. The baton was then passed to Jimmy Clausen, who lost the last four starts of his career from 2014–15. Then it was DeShone Kizer’s turn, who lost 15 starts for the Browns in 2017 as Cleveland went winless for the season.
Book’s first career start was a night to forget. He threw an interception that was returned for a touchdown on his second pass attempt of the night. The Saints punted on their next three drives, netting zero combined yards during that stretch, before getting a field goal with under three minutes left in the half.”
We may see Lance this week. Thumb injury to JG. Doesn’t look promising that he will play.
1. Book was mediocre, which just goes to show that escapability and athleticism at the college level does not necessarily translate to the League (he was the springbok on the Serengeti last night and the Dolphin defenders were the pride of lions - 8 sacks!);
2. Also shows that football is ultimate team game - was Tua much (if any) better than Book? Or if QBs switched teams, do you think the result is any different?
3. Regardless, good result for the 'Niners' playoff chances;
4. Speaking of 'Niners, I think Jimmy's agent (and probably Jimmy himself) are now insisting on having some say on what the PR is regarding his condition for Sunday. If he goes, then Jimmy wants the world to know that his thumb is injured . . . pretty notably. Why jeopardize his future prospects with another team if he plays poorly on Sunday? And I'm fine with that. You can only be the good soldier/professional for so long. In all events, the 'Niners better have Trey ready . . . heck, he could start and play the whole game barring his own injury or terrible play (Jimmy used only in an emergency). But there is real upside here for SF, if Trey is ready to go.
RE: lex24 - Mick - 12-28-2021
(12-28-2021, 12:32 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(12-27-2021, 10:42 PM)lex24 Wrote: Dolphins drub Saints. Book played like you’d expect a rookie playing his first game in week 16 against a playoff contender.
Then there’s this nice bit of info from ESPN:
“With the Saints’s 20–3 loss, former Fighting Irish quarterbacks have now lost in 24 consecutive NFL starts, according to ESPN Stats & Info. The streak dates back to 2012, and stands as the longest such drought since 1950.
It started with Brady Quinn, who lost the last four starts of his career with the Chiefs in 2012. The baton was then passed to Jimmy Clausen, who lost the last four starts of his career from 2014–15. Then it was DeShone Kizer’s turn, who lost 15 starts for the Browns in 2017 as Cleveland went winless for the season.
Book’s first career start was a night to forget. He threw an interception that was returned for a touchdown on his second pass attempt of the night. The Saints punted on their next three drives, netting zero combined yards during that stretch, before getting a field goal with under three minutes left in the half.”
We may see Lance this week. Thumb injury to JG. Doesn’t look promising that he will play.
1. Book was mediocre, which just goes to show that escapability and athleticism at the college level does not necessarily translate to the League (he was the springbok on the Serengeti last night and the Dolphin defenders were the pride of lions - 8 sacks!);
2. Also shows that football is ultimate team game - was Tua much (if any) better than Book? Or if QBs switched teams, do you think the result is any different?
3. Regardless, good result for the 'Niners' playoff chances;
4. Speaking of 'Niners, I think Jimmy's agent (and probably Jimmy himself) are now insisting on having some say on what the PR is regarding his condition for Sunday. If he goes, then Jimmy wants the world to know that his thumb is injured . . . pretty notably. Why jeopardize his future prospects with another team if he plays poorly on Sunday? And I'm fine with that. You can only be the good soldier/professional for so long. In all events, the 'Niners better have Trey ready . . . heck, he could start and play the whole game barring his own injury or terrible play (Jimmy used only in an emergency). But there is real upside here for SF, if Trey is ready to go.
Is it just JG's thumb? The 49er web site says he has a UCL issue (elbow)
RE: lex24 - cardcrimson - 12-28-2021
(12-28-2021, 01:41 PM)Mick Wrote: Is it just JG's thumb? The 49er web site says he has a UCL issue (elbow)
I had to look it up. It's in the thumb:
https://www.flboneandjoint.com/conditions/thumb-ulnar-collateral-ligament-injuries/
Doesn't look good though. No pinch or grip ability; surgery to repair. . . .
Is this a Bledsoe Brady situation?
RE: lex24 - DC 86 - 12-28-2021
(12-28-2021, 01:41 PM)Mick Wrote: Is it just JG's thumb? The 49er web site says he has a UCL issue (elbow)
There are multiple UCL in the human body, e.g. elbow, wrist, thumb. JG's injury is to his thumb.
(12-28-2021, 12:32 PM)teejers1 Wrote: 1. Book was mediocre, which just goes to show that escapability and athleticism at the college level does not necessarily translate to the League (he was the springbok on the Serengeti last night and the Dolphin defenders were the pride of lions - 8 sacks!);
2. Also shows that football is ultimate team game - was Tua much (if any) better than Book? Or if QBs switched teams, do you think the result is any different?
Tua was mediocre (41.9 QBR). Book wasn't mediocre, he was bad (2.1 QBR).
If the quarterbacks switch teams then at a minimum the game is closer.
RE: lex24 - teejers1 - 12-28-2021
(12-28-2021, 02:48 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 01:41 PM)Mick Wrote: Is it just JG's thumb? The 49er web site says he has a UCL issue (elbow)
There are multiple UCL in the human body, e.g. elbow, wrist, thumb. JG's injury is to his thumb.
(12-28-2021, 12:32 PM)teejers1 Wrote: 1. Book was mediocre, which just goes to show that escapability and athleticism at the college level does not necessarily translate to the League (he was the springbok on the Serengeti last night and the Dolphin defenders were the pride of lions - 8 sacks!);
2. Also shows that football is ultimate team game - was Tua much (if any) better than Book? Or if QBs switched teams, do you think the result is any different?
Tua was mediocre (41.9 QBR). Book wasn't mediocre, he was bad (2.1 QBR).
If the quarterbacks switch teams then at a minimum the game is closer.
But QBR is influenced (I'd say dictated) by ability to get throws off without being pressured/running for your life. That was NOT Book. Plus, I just don't think Tua has anything Book doesn't from a QB standpoint . . . other than he played behind a line that protected him a bit.
lex24 - lex24 - 12-28-2021
(12-28-2021, 03:05 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 02:48 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 01:41 PM)Mick Wrote: Is it just JG's thumb? The 49er web site says he has a UCL issue (elbow)
There are multiple UCL in the human body, e.g. elbow, wrist, thumb. JG's injury is to his thumb.
(12-28-2021, 12:32 PM)teejers1 Wrote: 1. Book was mediocre, which just goes to show that escapability and athleticism at the college level does not necessarily translate to the League (he was the springbok on the Serengeti last night and the Dolphin defenders were the pride of lions - 8 sacks!);
2. Also shows that football is ultimate team game - was Tua much (if any) better than Book? Or if QBs switched teams, do you think the result is any different?
Tua was mediocre (41.9 QBR). Book wasn't mediocre, he was bad (2.1 QBR).
If the quarterbacks switch teams then at a minimum the game is closer.
But QBR is influence (I'd say dictated) by ability to get throws off without being pressured/running for your life. That was NOT Book. Plus, I just don't think Tua has anything Book doesn't from a QB standpoint . . . other than he played behind a line that protected him a bit.
By no measure was Book “mediocre”. He gave up more points than they scored. He stunk. But that is not surprising. He’s a rookie who hadn’t taken a live snap. Since Winston went down, NO has been desperate for even mediocre QB play. Yet, they never went to Book. Which tells you a little of what Peyton thinks of him at this point. Doesn’t mean he may not be a decent NFL QB someday.
Course, I love that ND QB’s are 0-24 since 2012.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Phogge - 12-28-2021
Stanford made Book look like Robert Griffin on his best day. They made Brady Quinn look like John Huarte. Chase Garbers like Michael Vick.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - old spanish trail - 12-28-2021
(12-28-2021, 04:29 PM)Phogge Wrote: Stanford made Book look like Robert Griffin on his best day. They made Brady Quinn look like John Huarte. Chase Garbers like Michael Vick.
Apparently, so did alot of other teams re Book and Griffin. Stanford, indeed, showed all that Garbers can delliver...for better and for worse.
RE: lex24 - DC 86 - 12-28-2021
(12-28-2021, 03:05 PM)teejers1 Wrote: But QBR is influenced (I'd say dictated) by ability to get throws off without being pressured/running for your life. That was NOT Book. Plus, I just don't think Tua has anything Book doesn't from a QB standpoint . . . other than he played behind a line that protected him a bit.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion. You said Book was a "gamer" and that you expected NO to sweep its last two games. He played like a guy with physical limitations playing in his first NFL game. He indeed was under pressure; an important part of quarterbacking is throwing the ball away or checking down instead of taking a sack or throwing an interception. To say that there's no difference between him and Tua at this point in time is just wishful thinking. Book is the fourth choice quarterback on a 7-8 team, Tua is the starter on a team that has won its last seven games.
RE: lex24 - teejers1 - 12-28-2021
(12-28-2021, 05:46 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 03:05 PM)teejers1 Wrote: But QBR is influenced (I'd say dictated) by ability to get throws off without being pressured/running for your life. That was NOT Book. Plus, I just don't think Tua has anything Book doesn't from a QB standpoint . . . other than he played behind a line that protected him a bit.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion. You said Book was a "gamer" and that you expected NO to sweep its last two games. He played like a guy with physical limitations playing in his first NFL game. He indeed was under pressure; an important part of quarterbacking is throwing the ball away or checking down instead of taking a sack or throwing an interception. To say that there's no difference between him and Tua at this point in time is just wishful thinking. Book is the fourth choice quarterback on a 7-8 team, Tua is the starter on a team that has won its last seven games.
Hey, that's why I previously said "15 cents" about correct sports takes.
But your last sentence is the kind of superficial "analysis" that Shaw defenders use to prop up his coaching abilities. Can you name the 7 teams Miami has beaten on this streak? (Texans, Ravens, Jets, Panthers, Giants, Jets, Saints (down to fourth string QB). Not exactly a Murderer's Row of the NFL. They also averaged 22 points/game in those 7 wins - so Tua isn't exactly burning it up on the offensive side of the ball. I don't think it's wishful thinking to believe that Book would fare just as well as Tua if he QBed the Dolphins. Your belief to the contrary is equally "wishful thinking." Regardless, we'll never know.
RE: lex24 - DC 86 - 12-28-2021
(12-28-2021, 06:10 PM)teejers1 Wrote: I don't think it's wishful thinking to believe that Book would fare just as well as Tua if he QBed the Dolphins. Your belief to the contrary is equally "wishful thinking." Regardless, we'll never know.
You're framing your argument in a way that can never be refuted, as opposed to presenting objective evidence. I could posit that "if Kyle Orton had played for the Patriots under Bill Belicheck he would have won six Super Bowls just like Tom Brady, but we'll never know, and your belief to the contrary is no more valid than my belief." In actuality, some beliefs are more valid than others, in sports and otherwise. Right now Tua ranks ninth in the league in QBR. He's started 19 NFL games and won 12 of them. It seems that if Ian Book was currently a starting-caliber NFL quarterback that Sean Payton would have given him a chance ahead of Trevor Siemiean at some point this season. Sure, it's theoretically possible that Book is as capable as Tua at the moment, but there is no evidence at all to support that view, only "my factually unsupported opinion is equally as good as anyone else's, including NFL head coaches." If Tua was on the Saints roster do you think he would have taken his first snap in the fourteenth game of the season, after running through Hill, Winston and Siemian?
lex24 - lex24 - 12-28-2021
(12-28-2021, 06:10 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 05:46 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 03:05 PM)teejers1 Wrote: But QBR is influenced (I'd say dictated) by ability to get throws off without being pressured/running for your life. That was NOT Book. Plus, I just don't think Tua has anything Book doesn't from a QB standpoint . . . other than he played behind a line that protected him a bit.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion. You said Book was a "gamer" and that you expected NO to sweep its last two games. He played like a guy with physical limitations playing in his first NFL game. He indeed was under pressure; an important part of quarterbacking is throwing the ball away or checking down instead of taking a sack or throwing an interception. To say that there's no difference between him and Tua at this point in time is just wishful thinking. Book is the fourth choice quarterback on a 7-8 team, Tua is the starter on a team that has won its last seven games.
Hey, that's why I previously said "15 cents" about correct sports takes.
But your last sentence is the kind of superficial "analysis" that Shaw defenders use to prop up his coaching abilities. Can you name the 7 teams Miami has beaten on this streak? (Texans, Ravens, Jets, Panthers, Giants, Jets, Saints (down to fourth string QB). Not exactly a Murderer's Row of the NFL. They also averaged 22 points/game in those 7 wins - so Tua isn't exactly burning it up on the offensive side of the ball. I don't think it's wishful thinking to believe that Book would fare just as well as Tua if he QBed the Dolphins. Your belief to the contrary is equally "wishful thinking." Regardless, we'll never know.
Impressive! In one post you bring Shaw into a discussion that he bears no relationship to and double down on an argument that is and was fallacious from the get go. Well done!
RE: lex24 - teejers1 - 12-29-2021
(12-28-2021, 08:25 PM)lex24 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 06:10 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 05:46 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 03:05 PM)teejers1 Wrote: But QBR is influenced (I'd say dictated) by ability to get throws off without being pressured/running for your life. That was NOT Book. Plus, I just don't think Tua has anything Book doesn't from a QB standpoint . . . other than he played behind a line that protected him a bit.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion. You said Book was a "gamer" and that you expected NO to sweep its last two games. He played like a guy with physical limitations playing in his first NFL game. He indeed was under pressure; an important part of quarterbacking is throwing the ball away or checking down instead of taking a sack or throwing an interception. To say that there's no difference between him and Tua at this point in time is just wishful thinking. Book is the fourth choice quarterback on a 7-8 team, Tua is the starter on a team that has won its last seven games.
Hey, that's why I previously said "15 cents" about correct sports takes.
But your last sentence is the kind of superficial "analysis" that Shaw defenders use to prop up his coaching abilities. Can you name the 7 teams Miami has beaten on this streak? (Texans, Ravens, Jets, Panthers, Giants, Jets, Saints (down to fourth string QB). Not exactly a Murderer's Row of the NFL. They also averaged 22 points/game in those 7 wins - so Tua isn't exactly burning it up on the offensive side of the ball. I don't think it's wishful thinking to believe that Book would fare just as well as Tua if he QBed the Dolphins. Your belief to the contrary is equally "wishful thinking." Regardless, we'll never know.
Impressive! In one post you bring Shaw into a discussion that he bears no relationship to and double down on an argument that is and was fallacious from the get go. Well done!
Thank you. It's an art form. Although bringing the Shaw argument in after DC's "but Tua has won 7 games in a row" was a lay-up of sorts - you can win in spite of people, not just "because of" people. Shaw at sea level: it's a tough reality for many to face these days.
And to answer DC's last question: if Tua drafted when Book was, then yes (or stated differently, teams that draft a QB in R1 feel compelled to play him . . . usually sooner than later). Look, there are some QBs that stand out from the rest. We all know who they are. Then there is the great mass of QBs whose success or failure depends on a variety of factors, most notably opportunity, coaching/scheme, and teammates' abilities. Tua is no great shakes. And is no greater shakes than Book or any number of other QBs in the "great mass." That is the fundamental point.
lex24 - lex24 - 12-29-2021
(12-29-2021, 11:49 AM)teejers1 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 08:25 PM)lex24 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 06:10 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 05:46 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 03:05 PM)teejers1 Wrote: But QBR is influenced (I'd say dictated) by ability to get throws off without being pressured/running for your life. That was NOT Book. Plus, I just don't think Tua has anything Book doesn't from a QB standpoint . . . other than he played behind a line that protected him a bit.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion. You said Book was a "gamer" and that you expected NO to sweep its last two games. He played like a guy with physical limitations playing in his first NFL game. He indeed was under pressure; an important part of quarterbacking is throwing the ball away or checking down instead of taking a sack or throwing an interception. To say that there's no difference between him and Tua at this point in time is just wishful thinking. Book is the fourth choice quarterback on a 7-8 team, Tua is the starter on a team that has won its last seven games.
Hey, that's why I previously said "15 cents" about correct sports takes.
But your last sentence is the kind of superficial "analysis" that Shaw defenders use to prop up his coaching abilities. Can you name the 7 teams Miami has beaten on this streak? (Texans, Ravens, Jets, Panthers, Giants, Jets, Saints (down to fourth string QB). Not exactly a Murderer's Row of the NFL. They also averaged 22 points/game in those 7 wins - so Tua isn't exactly burning it up on the offensive side of the ball. I don't think it's wishful thinking to believe that Book would fare just as well as Tua if he QBed the Dolphins. Your belief to the contrary is equally "wishful thinking." Regardless, we'll never know.
Impressive! In one post you bring Shaw into a discussion that he bears no relationship to and double down on an argument that is and was fallacious from the get go. Well done!
Thank you. It's an art form. Although bringing the Shaw argument in after DC's "but Tua has won 7 games in a row" was a lay-up of sorts - you can win in spite of people, not just "because of" people. Shaw at sea level: it's a tough reality for many to face these days.
And to answer DC's last question: if Tua drafted when Book was, then yes (or stated differently, teams that draft a QB in R1 feel compelled to play him . . . usually sooner than later). Look, there are some QBs that stand out from the rest. We all know who they are. Then there is the great mass of QBs whose success or failure depends on a variety of factors, most notably opportunity, coaching/scheme, and teammates' abilities. Tua is no great shakes. And is no greater shakes than Book or any number of other QBs in the "great mass." That is the fundamental point.
Who said Tua is elite? But I think if you did a poll of NFL GM’s you’d hear that Tua is significantly better than a fourth string QB. Sean Peyton is as good a coach as there is besides Belichek. His QB situation has been a mess since Winston went down. Yet Book was never in the equation until everyone was hurt or out due to Covid.
The “great mass” you refer to is actually quite small. In most instances, there is a big difference between starting QB’s and back ups. So that great mass is between about 10-25 on the QB list. Jimmy G is in that mass. (And his former backups - Beathard and Mullen are not). So is Tua. Ian Book is not. Maybe he will be someday. Maybe not.
Book was a 4th round pick coming after being a 5th year senior. Not particularly highly regarded. Bottom line is if you aren’t a first or second round pick, the odds are stacked against you being a starting QB. Taking starting QB’s on day 1 in ‘21, there are 4 that were not drafted in the first or second round - Cousins (4). Wilson (3). Prescott (4). And a sixth round pick named Brady….
BTW- dont you find it delightful that ND QB’s have gone 0-24 since 2012? I do.
RE: Giants/Niners 2021 thread - Phogge - 12-29-2021
Jimmy has handled the situation about as well as anybody could. Wherever he goes I’ll root for him. Still think Lance won’t survive 17 games next year and the Niners will be up the Salinas River without a paddle.
RE: lex24 - teejers1 - 12-29-2021
(12-29-2021, 11:58 AM)lex24 Wrote:(12-29-2021, 11:49 AM)teejers1 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 08:25 PM)lex24 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 06:10 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 05:46 PM)DC 86 Wrote: Well, you're entitled to your opinion. You said Book was a "gamer" and that you expected NO to sweep its last two games. He played like a guy with physical limitations playing in his first NFL game. He indeed was under pressure; an important part of quarterbacking is throwing the ball away or checking down instead of taking a sack or throwing an interception. To say that there's no difference between him and Tua at this point in time is just wishful thinking. Book is the fourth choice quarterback on a 7-8 team, Tua is the starter on a team that has won its last seven games.
Hey, that's why I previously said "15 cents" about correct sports takes.
But your last sentence is the kind of superficial "analysis" that Shaw defenders use to prop up his coaching abilities. Can you name the 7 teams Miami has beaten on this streak? (Texans, Ravens, Jets, Panthers, Giants, Jets, Saints (down to fourth string QB). Not exactly a Murderer's Row of the NFL. They also averaged 22 points/game in those 7 wins - so Tua isn't exactly burning it up on the offensive side of the ball. I don't think it's wishful thinking to believe that Book would fare just as well as Tua if he QBed the Dolphins. Your belief to the contrary is equally "wishful thinking." Regardless, we'll never know.
Impressive! In one post you bring Shaw into a discussion that he bears no relationship to and double down on an argument that is and was fallacious from the get go. Well done!
Thank you. It's an art form. Although bringing the Shaw argument in after DC's "but Tua has won 7 games in a row" was a lay-up of sorts - you can win in spite of people, not just "because of" people. Shaw at sea level: it's a tough reality for many to face these days.
And to answer DC's last question: if Tua drafted when Book was, then yes (or stated differently, teams that draft a QB in R1 feel compelled to play him . . . usually sooner than later). Look, there are some QBs that stand out from the rest. We all know who they are. Then there is the great mass of QBs whose success or failure depends on a variety of factors, most notably opportunity, coaching/scheme, and teammates' abilities. Tua is no great shakes. And is no greater shakes than Book or any number of other QBs in the "great mass." That is the fundamental point.
Who said Tua is elite? But I think if you did a poll of NFL GM’s you’d hear that Tua is significantly better than a fourth string QB. Sean Peyton is as good a coach as there is besides Belichek. His QB situation has been a mess since Winston went down. Yet Book was never in the equation until everyone was hurt or out due to Covid.
The “great mass” you refer to is actually quite small. In most instances, there is a big difference between starting QB’s and back ups. So that great mass is between about 10-25 on the QB list. Jimmy G is in that mass. (And his former backups - Beathard and Mullen are not). So is Tua. Ian Book is not. Maybe he will be someday. Maybe not.
Book was a 4th round pick coming after being a 5th year senior. Not particularly highly regarded. Bottom line is if you aren’t a first or second round pick, the odds are stacked against you being a starting QB. Taking starting QB’s on day 1 in ‘21, there are 4 that were not drafted in the first or second round - Cousins (4). Wilson (3). Prescott (4). And a sixth round pick named Brady….
BTW- dont you find it delightful that ND QB’s have gone 0-24 since 2012? I do.
Don't even know where to begin to respond. OF COURSE R1/R2 QBs are more likely to be starters. Teams value the position (over all others) and go up in the draft to get them; and when they do draft one, they give them the OPPORTUNITY to play. Opportunity is the #1 prerequisite to being a starter. So your statement is unsurprising/expected.
And the statement: "Most GMs view Tua as better than a fourth string QB" is . . . neither here nor there.
And just as there are R1 busts; there are R3 or later success stories. But I'm not even talking about busts or stars. I'm talking about who could be a decent/serviceable QB in the NFL (which is all Tua is). That list goes on and on and on. You could put any number of other QBs into the Dolphins' lineup and they would have been equally successful in terms of W/L record. That is my point. And I'd bet Book would fall into that category (although I don't know why I focused on him - I don't even like that Cardinal-killer, and yes, I like the 0-24 stat for ND starters).
Is Tua better than Foles? Brissette? McCoy? Minshew? I don't think so. But Tua was a R1 pick (#5 overall), was given an opportunity to play QB on a very good roster, and has done okay when given that opportunity (has been a .500 QB this year). Good for him; but he's NBD. And btw, I like Tua - or at least everything I've read about the guy.
lex24 - lex24 - 12-29-2021
(12-29-2021, 12:42 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(12-29-2021, 11:58 AM)lex24 Wrote:(12-29-2021, 11:49 AM)teejers1 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 08:25 PM)lex24 Wrote:(12-28-2021, 06:10 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Hey, that's why I previously said "15 cents" about correct sports takes.
But your last sentence is the kind of superficial "analysis" that Shaw defenders use to prop up his coaching abilities. Can you name the 7 teams Miami has beaten on this streak? (Texans, Ravens, Jets, Panthers, Giants, Jets, Saints (down to fourth string QB). Not exactly a Murderer's Row of the NFL. They also averaged 22 points/game in those 7 wins - so Tua isn't exactly burning it up on the offensive side of the ball. I don't think it's wishful thinking to believe that Book would fare just as well as Tua if he QBed the Dolphins. Your belief to the contrary is equally "wishful thinking." Regardless, we'll never know.
Impressive! In one post you bring Shaw into a discussion that he bears no relationship to and double down on an argument that is and was fallacious from the get go. Well done!
Thank you. It's an art form. Although bringing the Shaw argument in after DC's "but Tua has won 7 games in a row" was a lay-up of sorts - you can win in spite of people, not just "because of" people. Shaw at sea level: it's a tough reality for many to face these days.
And to answer DC's last question: if Tua drafted when Book was, then yes (or stated differently, teams that draft a QB in R1 feel compelled to play him . . . usually sooner than later). Look, there are some QBs that stand out from the rest. We all know who they are. Then there is the great mass of QBs whose success or failure depends on a variety of factors, most notably opportunity, coaching/scheme, and teammates' abilities. Tua is no great shakes. And is no greater shakes than Book or any number of other QBs in the "great mass." That is the fundamental point.
Who said Tua is elite? But I think if you did a poll of NFL GM’s you’d hear that Tua is significantly better than a fourth string QB. Sean Peyton is as good a coach as there is besides Belichek. His QB situation has been a mess since Winston went down. Yet Book was never in the equation until everyone was hurt or out due to Covid.
The “great mass” you refer to is actually quite small. In most instances, there is a big difference between starting QB’s and back ups. So that great mass is between about 10-25 on the QB list. Jimmy G is in that mass. (And his former backups - Beathard and Mullen are not). So is Tua. Ian Book is not. Maybe he will be someday. Maybe not.
Book was a 4th round pick coming after being a 5th year senior. Not particularly highly regarded. Bottom line is if you aren’t a first or second round pick, the odds are stacked against you being a starting QB. Taking starting QB’s on day 1 in ‘21, there are 4 that were not drafted in the first or second round - Cousins (4). Wilson (3). Prescott (4). And a sixth round pick named Brady….
BTW- dont you find it delightful that ND QB’s have gone 0-24 since 2012? I do.
Don't even know where to begin to respond. OF COURSE R1/R2 QBs are more likely to be starters. Teams value the position (over all others) and go up in the draft to get them; and when they do draft one, they give them the OPPORTUNITY to play. Opportunity is the #1 prerequisite to being a starter. So your statement is unsurprising/expected.
And the statement: "Most GMs view Tua as better than a fourth string QB" is . . . neither here nor there.
And just as there are R1 busts; there are R3 or later success stories. But I'm not even talking about busts or stars. I'm talking about who could be a decent/serviceable QB in the NFL (which is all Tua is). That list goes on and on and on. You could put any number of other QBs into the Dolphins' lineup and they would have been equally successful in terms of W/L record. That is my point. And I'd bet Book would fall into that category (although I don't know why I focused on him - I don't even like that Cardinal-killer, and yes, I like the 0-24 stat for ND starters).
Is Tua better than Foles? Brissette? McCoy? Minshew? I don't think so. But Tua was a R1 pick (#5 overall), was given an opportunity to play QB on a very good roster, and has done okay when given that opportunity (has been a .500 QB this year). Good for him; but he's NBD. And btw, I like Tua - or at least everything I've read about the guy.
Backups are backups for a reason. They aren’t as good as the starter. The Niners are a great example. JG is a mid tier starting QB at best. Yet the Niners have a strong record with him at QB. When he was out and Beathard and Mullen played, they stunk. The drop off was dramatic.
QB is the most important and hardest position to fill. Teams will give opportunities to those it believe can be a starting NFL QB. Others are going to be career backups. Not a bad gig if you can get it.
And yes, I do think Tua is better than Brisett, Foles, McCoy and Minshew. Further, as a second year player, he may get better. Particularly if the Dolphins can improve what is a lousy offensive line. He is very accurate, gets the ball out quickly. He’s also injury prone and does not have a particularly strong arm. So, jury still out.
I think I’ve beaten this dead horse enough. So, last word is yours if you so desire.