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CU football headed for trouble? - CowboyIndian - 02-04-2017

This seems more important than the press it's gotten so far. CU coach MacIntyre and his AD have lawyered up after accusations of abuse against a recently-resigned defensive coach. In the light of Baylor and Penn State, you have to be fairly dense to think you can stonewall this stuff.

http://www.si.com/college-football/2017/02/03/colorado-football-joe-tumpkin-assault-case

Re: CU football headed for trouble? - Phogge - 02-04-2017

Assuming that the article correctly states the Title 9 provision on reporting then the AD, Chancellor or coach (or all) should be terminated.

If this guy is indeed guilty he should rot.

MacIntyre - wallendar - 02-04-2017

The next time someone brings up the notion that MacIntyre was a great hire, please remember the following article...

http://www.si.com/college-football/2017/02/03/colorado-football-joe-tumpkin-assault-case

Re: CU football headed for trouble? - CowboyIndian - 02-04-2017

With Baylor and this guy I'm left to wonder is it just them or is there something about being Baptist?

Re: CU football headed for trouble? - SUBuddha - 02-04-2017

(02-04-2017, 05:27 PM)CowboyIndian link Wrote:With Baylor and this guy I'm left to wonder is it just them or is there something about being Baptist?
CI my views on religion  have been expressed here, but your line made me spit bourbon on my keyboard, thanks for the giggle.

Re: CU football headed for trouble? - CowboyIndian - 02-04-2017

(02-04-2017, 05:59 PM)SUBuddha link Wrote:CI my views on religion  have been expressed here, but your line made me spit bourbon on my keyboard, thanks for the giggle.

Hope it wasn't the good stuff.

Re: CU football headed for trouble? - OutsiderFan - 02-05-2017

It's a little disingenuous for "Jane" to complain about how things unfolded when at the outset she said she didn't want charges filed against Tumpkin, didn't want money from him, or even an apology.  What did she want? 

Maybe Mac could have canned Tumpkin on the spot, but how can he do that without giving Tumpkin the opportunity to defend himself?  Jane would have made it far easier on herself if she went to the police straight away.  That way, the police would have informed Mac and the CU AD what was up, and they would have been forced to act.

The most unsavory part of this whole deal is the fact CU has a defense attorney on speed dial to deal with issues like this.  The university should not be spending a dime on defense attorneys for its coaches or players.  If they get in trouble with the law, they should have to figure out their own legal defense options.  The AD shouldn't even bother making referrals to any criminal defense attorneys.  There should be a firewall between criminal activity on the part of athletes and coaches, and any AD involvement whatsoever with criminal defense attorneys.



Re: CU football headed for trouble? - martyup - 02-05-2017

(02-04-2017, 05:59 PM)SUBuddha link Wrote:[quote author=CowboyIndian link=topic=16552.msg188165#msg188165 date=1486254457]
With Baylor and this guy I'm left to wonder is it just them or is there something about being Baptist?


CI my views on religion  have been expressed here, but your line made me spit bourbon on my keyboard, thanks for the giggle.
[/quote]

Buddhist, right?  :o

Re: CU football headed for trouble? - Phogge - 02-05-2017

Until someone close to you has been abused you cannot understand "Jane's" reluctrance to notify the police. Yes, she should have but she was terrified. At least "that someone" whom I know had her brother's football teammates to shadow her and give the guy the message.

Re: CU football headed for trouble? - OutsiderFan - 02-05-2017

I get the "afraid to report abuse" dynamic, but she in the article at least said she didn't want Tumpkin to be hurt.  She may have meant she didn't want to report him because she was afraid of what he would do to her, but that's not what she said in the article.  And in the end she ended up getting a restraining order, and that involved reporting her abuser.



Re: CU football headed for trouble? - Mick - 02-05-2017

(02-05-2017, 08:02 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:Maybe Mac could have canned Tumpkin on the spot, but how can he do that without giving Tumpkin the opportunity to defend himself?


In Corporate America?  Very, very easily.



Quote:The most unsavory part of this whole deal is the fact CU has a defense attorney on speed dial to deal with issues like this.  The university should not be spending a dime on defense attorneys for its coaches or players.  If they get in trouble with the law, they should have to figure out their own legal defense options.  The AD shouldn't even bother making referrals to any criminal defense attorneys.  There should be a firewall between criminal activity on the part of athletes and coaches, and any AD involvement whatsoever with criminal defense attorneys.



In the case of the players, you're talking about very young people with almost no sophisticated real world experience combined with the fact that their presence as competing athletes will weigh in on the AD's and head coach's future.  The case of the coaches are a bit murkier.  I think for anyone below coordinator level, they would be cut so as not to sink a ship.  For coordinators who are great recruiters?  Well, you see what you get.

Re: CU football headed for trouble? - Mick - 02-05-2017

(02-05-2017, 09:00 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:I get the "afraid to report abuse" dynamic, but she in the article at least said she didn't want Tumpkin to be hurt.  She may have meant she didn't want to report him because she was afraid of what he would do to her, but that's not what she said in the article.  And in the end she ended up getting a restraining order, and that involved reporting her abuser.


Watch the movie on Laurence Phillips (on Showtime).  He almost choked his girlfriend to death (not the Nebraska player, his latest girlfriend in San Diego).  She supported him all throughout the trial and sentencing.  To watch it is, frankly, unbelievably sad.

Your first misstep since I started worshipping you, CI - Redrum - 02-05-2017

(02-04-2017, 05:27 PM)CowboyIndian link Wrote:With Baylor and this guy I'm left to wonder is it just them or is there something about being Baptist?

As a quasi-prisoner of the heavily Baptist Deep South,  I gotta say this is the unfair to Baptists...and I never thought I'd write what I just wrote. 



Re: CU football headed for trouble? - 2006alum - 02-05-2017

Taking off my lawyer hat for a minute, and without blaming the victim or trying to defend the coach, I can understand Mac's hesitation as to what to do in trying to honor her request but also determine what he should do. After all, here's how the initial conversation ended:

Quote:“Mac said that he was numb,” says Jane. “He said he had never had a situation like this come up before and he wasn’t exactly sure what to do. He said he was getting ready to get on a plane to Denver and he would find out what he needed to do legally. I started to cry and told him I don’t want the police involved because of what it would do to Joe. I just needed someone to know—someone who could help him get well—because he is dangerous.”

“Mac asked me several times if I [felt] safe.… I told him that I did as long as Joe didn’t lose his job.” . . .

Jane had told Mac that she was intentionally not giving him any evidence because she didn’t want to put him in an “Art Briles situation”—a reference to the former Baylor head coach who was fired for reportedly mishandling allegations of sexual assault perpetrated by Baylor players. But then she remembered that there was evidence that could easily become public.

In a sense, she put him in an impossible bind by notifying him of illegal activity of an employee but then asking him not to do anything that could lead to consequences for that employee. How could he possibly "help him get well" and not report the situation without it becoming an "Art Briles situation?" So, in that sense, I understand why Mac might have some initial confusion in trying to honor her request but also determine what he was supposed to do. It's completely understandable that Jane didn't know what she wanted other than to talk to someone about it. The problem is just that having not fully thought it through, she was essentially giving Mac conflicting instructions.

However, putting my lawyer hat back on, here's the problem, for both Mac and for CU:
Quote:“He said he had never had a situation like this come up before and he wasn’t exactly sure what to do.

Even if such a situation hadn't come up for him before, CU should have trained him, like ALL employees, on what to do: immediately contact the university's general counsel's office right away, and if they advise him not to make direct contact with her, give her a terse explanation that, given the circumstances, the university's legal department has advised him that she should obtain counsel for future communications with the university. I realize that's really impersonal and extremely difficult to do given the nature of their personal friendship, but once she's notified the employer of an employee's illegal activities that could expose the university to liability vis-a-vis her, they really shouldn't have conversations anymore. That, of course, sucks, but unfortunately there's just not a better alternative.

And really, could every university please create a manual with this stuff and require every employee to read it? I just don't understand how they can let coaches (and others in supervisory positions) not have CLEAR marching orders in the post-Paterno world...

And edited to add:

CU also needs new legal counsel. Tumpkin's lawyer, who I assume was acting on behalf of the university, so clearly violated Model Rule 4.3, "Dealing with Unrepresented Persons," which reads:

Quote:The lawyer shall not give legal advice to an unrepresented person, other than the advice to secure counsel, if the lawyer knows or reasonably should know that the interests of such a person are or have a reasonable possibility of being in conflict with the interests of the client.

This exchange is just stunning:
Quote:The first contact Jane received about the matter, however—other than texts from three people closely associated with CU Athletics who praised her for speaking up—was from Jon Banashek, who called her four days after she and MacIntyre first spoke and, according to Jane, introduced himself as the criminal defense attorney for Joe Tumpkin. I understand you called coach MacIntyre, he said.

...According to Jane, Banashek told her that “he understood from Mac that I was looking for a restraining order ... [Banashek said] he could make that happen. He assured me that his client would never contact me again in any way. He kept asking, What is it that you want?” Jane recalls. “He must have asked me that ten times.

“I told him that I wanted his client to have not beat me up for two years. I told him that I wanted Joe to be safe and I wanted other women to be safe. I told him that on the Friday before, I was diagnosed with PTSD and that I am going to have to take meds for the first time in my life because of all this.”

Would you like to have all of that paid for? Banashek asked, according to Jane.

“I said, ‘I don’t want one penny of Joe Tumpkin’s money ... [Tumpkin] had to have told you that I would never take a dime of anyone’s money.’

“[Banashek] asked if I wanted an apology. I told him I had 600 apologies in text [form], so I do not need another. I told him that I had called coach Mac ... but no one is talking to me except a criminal defense attorney who is being paid a lot of money to get Joe out of trouble for beating me for two years.

“[Banashek] asked if I was considering going to the police. I said yes.”

A pause followed, Jane recalls.

“He asked if I would do him a favor and give him a heads up before I flew to Colorado to meet with police. I asked: Why I would do that? He said that it would just help him with his job.”

The right answer would have been: I recommend you seek counsel, who can advise you of your legal rights and options, and then have that person please get in touch with me. End of story.

Re: CU football headed for trouble? - teejers1 - 02-06-2017

I'm with OutsiderFan and 2006alum in questioning what, exactly, you would have Mac do, given the victim's very specific requests in that first conversation.  In ideal world, Mac knows to say "I have to report this to legal counsel at the university and will take my instructions from them."  But he probably didn't know what he had to do or should do (and it sure sounds like he reported up the ladder - to AD - so that already puts him in a more favorable light than other coaches we've read about at other institutions).

And when, exactly, did the victim go from "I don't want Tumpkin to lose his job, or be hurt in any way, I just want him to get help so that he won't be a menace to me or society" to "I need a permanent injunction (which will preclude Joe from ever coaching again) and have to talk to police, even though I know this will end up in a criminal prosecution against Joe"?  And her first statement that "I don't want any money" juxtaposed against "Tumpkin's severance of $79K is more than I make in a year" is a tad incongruous.

Look, I'm not saying she ultimately took the wrong approach - far from it.  But she has to know she sent conflicting signals and put the coach in a bit of a bind, albeit with the best of intentions.

Domestic violence is an ugly ugly thing.  And while it is very clear from a right/wrong perspective, it is much less clear on a "just punishment" perspective.  Forget Tumpkin (he appears to be a bad guy who will get what is long overdue).  But let me ask you this:  do you think Ray Rice's fiancé wanted him to be blackballed by the NFL and never get another job with that kind of salary?  Do you think such a result was a good thing for the victim?  For their family?  Do her wishes on this front not matter at all?


Re: CU football headed for trouble? - CTcard - 02-06-2017

(02-06-2017, 11:15 AM)teejers1 link Wrote:  In ideal world, Mac knows to say "I have to report this to legal counsel at the university and will take my instructions from them."  But he probably didn't know what he had to do or should do (and it sure sounds like he reported up the ladder - to AD - so that already puts him in a more favorable light than other coaches we've read about at other institutions).

So far, I don't know enough about the situation to have any opinion on McIntyre's actions - or lac thereof. However, I do know that by now basically every employee at every university in the country has to undergo training on reporting responsibilities for sexual harassment reports and various Title IX violations. Now it is not completely clear to me whether domestic violence is covered by Title IX (my understanding is that most institutions say it is - but I have read articles that claim this is unclear); 95% of people don't really pay attention during these training sessions; and for all I know high profile folks like coaches find their way out of sitting through them.
Still, I would assume that at least officially, he did know what he had to do upon hearing the allegations.

Re: CU football headed for trouble? - OutsiderFan - 02-06-2017

This isn't CU-related, but on ESPN's OTL today, they had a guy on saying the new information about Baylor warrants Baylor getting the death penalty.  Don't know if it would ever happen again, but that narrative is getting out there, and the NCAA, if pressured by enough women, possibly under the threat of boycott, could potentially be forced to act in kind, yes?

Re: CU football headed for trouble? - CowboyIndian - 02-06-2017

(02-06-2017, 12:38 PM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:This isn't CU-related, but on ESPN's OTL today, they had a guy on saying the new information about Baylor warrants Baylor getting the death penalty.  Don't know if it would ever happen again, but that narrative is getting out there, and the NCAA, if pressured by enough women, possibly under the threat of boycott, could potentially be forced to act in kind, yes?

I think that lawsuits with big judgments, rather than boycotts, would be more of a catalyst for NCAA action.

Re: CU football headed for trouble? - Papa John - 02-07-2017

(02-06-2017, 11:57 AM)CTcard link Wrote:[quote author=teejers1 link=topic=16552.msg188220#msg188220 date=1486404914]
  In ideal world, Mac knows to say "I have to report this to legal counsel at the university and will take my instructions from them."  But he probably didn't know what he had to do or should do (and it sure sounds like he reported up the ladder - to AD - so that already puts him in a more favorable light than other coaches we've read about at other institutions).

So far, I don't know enough about the situation to have any opinion on McIntyre's actions - or lac thereof. However, I do know that by now basically every employee at every university in the country has to undergo training on reporting responsibilities for sexual harassment reports and various Title IX violations. Now it is not completely clear to me whether domestic violence is covered by Title IX (my understanding is that most institutions say it is - but I have read articles that claim this is unclear); 95% of people don't really pay attention during these training sessions; and for all I know high profile folks like coaches find their way out of sitting through them.
Still, I would assume that at least officially, he did know what he had to do upon hearing the allegations.
[/quote]

CTCard is right. At the university where I work, if someone comes to me with a claim of sexual harassment or assault, I am required to report it to Title IX office, not legal counsel. I'm sure CU has similar rules.

Re: CU football headed for trouble? - magnus - 06-13-2017

Looks like punishment has been determined for the Chancellor, AD, and Coach.

http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/19618509/colorado-buffaloes-suspend-phil-distefano-reprimand-mike-macintyre-rick-george

Edit: And this week the CU Board of Regents is expected to finalize MacIntyre's new $16.25M contract