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Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - Printable Version

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Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - 76lsjumb - 03-22-2017

Tonight his #4 seed UCF Knights defeated the #2 seed Fighting Illini to advance to Madison Square Garden and the NIT Finals.  Even though U of I was the higher seed, the game had to be played at UCF due to a scheduling conflict in U of I's arena... hmmm, sounds familiar...

In any event, attendance was listed at 10,011... in a venue with a  capacity of 10,000.  I saw a few highlights of the game and the place was jammed and going crazy.  The Box Score notes indicate that this was the first sell-out for the arena in the program's history... and it was all for what folks around here call the Not Important Tournament.

Tonight I wouldn't be surprised if one of the happiest persons about Stanford firing Dawkins last year was Dawkins himself...followed closely by most of those other 10,011 fans at that game.  After all, instead of winning in front of a packed house, and heading to MSG to play for a possible post-season championship with a team whose three prior seasons had been substantially worse than Stanford's, he could still be at Stanford, where many of the so-called fans are so jaded and unsupportive that they (1) wouldn't have gone to the game in the first place and (2) if Stanford had won, would still almost certainly make fun of the outcome as just another Not Important win.

Too bad Stanford doesn't have many fans like UCF's.

Re: Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - fullmetal - 03-22-2017

It is true that Stanford fans don't pack Maples like they used to... :(  But surely UCF wasn't packing the the arena when the Golden Knights weren't doing well either, right?  Success breeds interest breeds popularity and fans.  The inverse is true, unfortunately.

Re: Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - 2006alum - 03-23-2017

(03-22-2017, 09:53 PM)76lsjumb link Wrote:he could still be at Stanford, where many of the so-called fans are so jaded and unsupportive that they (1) wouldn't have gone to the game in the first place and (2) if Stanford had won, would still almost certainly make fun of the outcome as just another Not Important win.

Too bad Stanford doesn't have many fans like UCF's.

I guess you can glean from that a reason to insult Stanford fans if you want to, but to me, the better explanation is that Stanford vs. UCF is simply an apples to oranges comparison, for the following reasons:

1. Our basketball history is far more storied than UCF's. UCF has been to the tournament four times, and lost all four games, the most recent in 2005. That's right, they've never won a tournament game. When I was an undergrad we were the number one team in the country. Our women's team has been to the Final Four on average every other year for the past decade. So naturally making the finals of the NIT is a bigger deal for them than it was for us. I was at MSG when we beat Minnesota in the finals of the NIT in 2012, and believe me, it was palpably less exciting than some of our regular season wins against Arizona and UCLA. 

2. Across the board, and not just in basketball, Stanford is, frankly, much better at sports, and so we are less excited about by being the nation's 69th best basketball team, let alone nation's 69th best at any sport. This school year alone, we've already celebrated three national championships, and we regularly expect all of our teams to be competitive at the highest levels. By comparison, UCF has never won an NCAA championship in any sport. Say whatever you will about Dawkins, in his 8 years at Stanford, we had one sweet sixteen run and that was it. Two NIT championships are fun and all (and again, I attended our 2012 NIT victory), but it's an empty bragging right, because trust me, no one else cares about the NIT either. To put it in numerical perspective, winning the NIT scores the same 0 Directors Cup points that we scored in men's basketball this year.

3. UCF has far, far larger student and alumni bases than does Stanford. Wikipedia informs me that UCF has the largest undergraduate enrollment and largest total enrollment of any university in the United States, with 64,000 students. That means it takes less than 1/6 of the current student body to sell out their basketball stadium. By comparison, we would need every single undergraduate and then some to fill ours. And because UCF is much more of a regional school, many more alums stick around the area and can easily attend games. I'd estimate that approximately 75% of my friends from undergrad no longer live in the bay area, myself included. I try to catch every Stanford hoops game I can on the Pac-12 Network, but it's not feasible for me to attend home games. If you only measure fan enthusiasm based on butts on bleachers, I guess that makes me one of your "so-called fans."

4. As a corollary to 1, 2, and 3, we're stretched much more thinly to come out and support teams. We have far fewer alums, they are dispersed far and wide, and with so many strong athletic teams, our cup runneth over in terms of the choices of games to attend and teams to support. It's the insanely awesome luxury of being a Stanford fan - far, far more to root for than there is time to fully engage. Are we spoiled? Yes! But I think most Stanford fans appreciate how lucky we are, and are anything but "so-called." At least here on the Cardboard. :)

None of this takes away from Dawkins' accomplishment at UCF, but after watching him coach our team for eight seasons, I have zero regrets about going in a different direction. By all accounts, he's a great guy, but he was never going to be the next Monte.

Re: Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - BostonCard - 03-23-2017

Compare the excitement for the Sun Bowl game in 2009, when it was the first bowl game we had gone to since the fiasco in Seattle 8 years earlier and the program was clearly on an upswing, and the Sun Bowl game 8 years later, when, after 3 Rose Bowls in 4 years and 5 BCS-caliber bowls in 6, the Sun Bowl was a bit of a... step down if you will (particularly without our star player playing).

BC

Re: Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - burger - 03-23-2017

(03-22-2017, 09:53 PM)76lsjumb link Wrote:Too bad Stanford doesn't have many fans like UCF's.
This is a dumb comparison.  UCF has an enrollment of 64,000 students (it's the largest school in the country).  If Stanford had 64,000 students--and was the only major college in its metropolitan area, like UCF--we would probably be able to sell out a lot of games, too.

(After posting, I noticed that 2006alum made a similar point above.)

Re: Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - Spiny_Norman - 03-23-2017

I'm happy for Coach Dawkins and the enthusiasm that he has created at UCF.  I'll always wish him well.  How long before a bigger program (say an Indiana, LSU, NC State, Missouri or Georgetown) knocks on his door? 

Re: Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - oldalum - 03-23-2017

(03-23-2017, 09:35 AM)burger link Wrote:-we would probably be able to sell out a lot of games, too.
We used to sell out a lot of games when we were competing for and sometimes winning conference championships. Winning loves company.

Re: Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - Spiny_Norman - 03-23-2017

(03-23-2017, 02:42 PM)oldalum link Wrote:[quote author=burger link=topic=16708.msg190459#msg190459 date=1490286946]
-we would probably be able to sell out a lot of games, too.
We used to sell out a lot of games when we were competing for and sometimes winning conference championships. Winning loves company.
[/quote]

Stanford needs a signature win over a top ranked UCLA or Arizona team to capture the attention of the community.  Something like this
http://stanforddailyarchive.com/cgi-bin/stanford?a=d&d=stanford19880205-01.2.2

Re: Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - cctop - 03-23-2017

(03-22-2017, 11:30 PM)fullmetal link Wrote:It is true that Stanford fans don't pack Maples like they used to... :(

It's true that fans are not packing Maples exactly like they used to not pack Maples. :-)

When I was an undergrad in the late 1980's, Maples was a morgue when we played any team besides Cal, Arizona, and sometimes UCLA.

At this point it looks like Stanford:basketball :: Washington:football.

We had about a 10-year period of being good and a 5-year period where it seemed like we might reach the top, before we slid back into our previous middle-of-the-Pac level.

Just like Washington football 2016, that may change.  But over the long term historically we haven't had an elite squad.

Re: Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - FarmBoy - 03-23-2017

76lsjumb - honest question, what was your view on the Dawkins situation? As I see it, the perspectives of Dawkins supporters (using plural in the assumption that you're not the only one) fall on a range of:

1) Dawkins was still a young coach getting experience and there was still a good chance that he was going to improve his overall record and coaching ability and become the kind of caoch who can get Stanford to the NCAA on a consistent basis and even win some tournament games.
2) It was clear Dawkins was going to be a perennial NIT/other tournament achieving coach at Stanford, but that's okay, because he's a nice guy, his kids graduate and don't get into scandals. Stanford should never fire a coach  unless they are a true bottom feeder or demonstrate bad ethics.




Re: Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - burger - 03-23-2017

(03-23-2017, 02:42 PM)oldalum link Wrote:[quote author=burger link=topic=16708.msg190459#msg190459 date=1490286946]
-we would probably be able to sell out a lot of games, too.
We used to sell out a lot of games when we were competing for and sometimes winning conference championships. Winning loves company.
[/quote]Absolutely.  I was just saying that an NIT-quality UCF team is, by and large, going to sell a lot more tickets than an NIT-quality Stanford team because of geography and numbers of fans.

In terms of Stanford sports, there is nothing I want more than for us to return to late 90s/early 00s form again.  Hopefully hiring Haase was step one.

Re: Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - BostonCard - 03-23-2017

One thing I forgot to mention... I am happy for Dawkins.  Even as I came to be convinced that he wasn't working out for us, I always liked him and found him to be a great person and very personable.  I have no problems rooting for his success, and I am glad he has landed in a situation that is working out for him.

But I'm still glad Muir decided to move in another direction.

BC

Re: Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - JJJ - 03-23-2017

(03-23-2017, 05:55 PM)Boston Card link Wrote:One thing I forgot to mention... I am happy for Dawkins.  Even as I came to be convinced that he wasn't working out for us, I always liked him and found him to be a great person and very personable.  I have no problems rooting for his success, and I am glad he has landed in a situation that is working out for him.

But I'm still glad Muir decided to move in another direction.

BC
My sentiments too, fwiw. (Not much, I know...)

Re: Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - CTcard - 03-24-2017

(03-23-2017, 03:13 PM)cctop link Wrote:At this point it looks like Stanford:basketball :: Washington:football.

Just like Washington football 2016, that may change.  But over the long term historically we haven't had an elite squad.

I know this isn't really the topic of the thread, but UW's position in football is not very similar to Stanford's in basketball.

Stanford basketball had a brief blaze of glory from 1936-1942 and again over the latter half of the Monty years. Other than that, Stanford has basically lost a lot. Stanford had one NCAA tournament appearance pre-Monty, the famed championship of 1942 when the NIT was considered more important. Post-Monty things were slightly better with appearances in 3 of 4 years under Johnson and 1 under Dawkins. The all time winning percentage is 57% - not so great considering the number of patsies in most seasons.

Meanwhile, UW football has generally probably been the second best program in the west. They have at least some kind of claim to 5 national championships (none undisputed I think). They have 9 Pac 8/10/12 championships. They have 14 Rose Bowl appearances (third most in the west - we've recently passed them for second); 37 bowl games altogether. They have a 61+% winning percentage in a sport that has a higher fraction of the season against conference opponents.

Re: Congratulations to Coach Dawkins - jacketree - 03-24-2017

Being completely honest with ourselves, since WWII Stanford basketball has been a complete mediocrity except:

1989, when a fabulous team puked on its shoes in Albany
1997 - 2004 save a little too much coming up short as a high seed, getting crushed by Kansas, etc.
2008 with the Lopez Brothers, a good surrounding cast, a lucky shot and Mitch Johnson thrown under the bus
2014 which proved to be a fluke and they were actually pretty mediocre

To be generous, the golden years could be expanded to a baker's dozen (1995 - 2008), during which Stanford went 18-12 in the tournament. Despite four Sweet Sixteen appearances, two Elite Eight appearances and one Final Four, that doesn't sound all that golden when compared to one of the truly elite programs of recent decades.

This isn't the new normal; this is just the normal. Monty's seven year itch was the aberration. I think even he saw the end of it and bailed.

I also think Stanford/Bay Area fans bore easily.  (Warriors fans seem to be the exception.)  Stanford football has never been better.  Yet they play in front of maybe 25,000 actual people in actual seats.  Stanford WBB is generally what, 40% full?  When Stanford MBB was just taking off with Brevin, I used to wait in line two hours for GA seats and loved doing it.  I bought season tickets and held them through about 2002.  Lots of empties in the upper corners with people sitting games other than Arizona, Cal, UCLA and UCONN out.

Went to the Big Game slaughter a few years ago.  A Rose Bowl was on the line. (Arizona did beat Oregon.)  Seas of empty seats on a gloriously sunny day.  I brought four Midshipmen with me that day as they were in town for a game against SJSU the night before.  (That game was a triple overtime thriller.)  They were psyched to go to a "real" football game. Even better - a real rivalry game. (Huh, you guys play Ohio State, Notre Dame, and bucket-list Army? OK sure. Real.) They even infiltrated the student section wearing 30 year old T-shirts out of my closet (Retro!).  The verdict. "Wow, pretty dead."