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Crime doesn't pay!!!! - Printable Version

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Crime doesn't pay!!!! - CornFed - 04-01-2017

http://collegebasketball.ap.org/ap/article/meeks-brobdingnagian-game-carries-tar-heels-back-ncaa-title-game

Or nearly doesn't ever pay.  Sometimes crime just doesn't affect anything and perpetrators get to continue to reap the rewards that they had hoped their misbehavior would provide.  I really am seriously getting fixated.  The truth is, when I get like this, I nearly always need to check my bearings and re-assess.



North Carolina did, in fact, violate numerous NCAA rules, right?  Over years and years, right?  Were the rules they broke simply insignificant?  Was it unclear whether or not they actually violated the rules?  Did they get penalized and I missed it?  I seem to remember that their football team had some inconvenience, but then in December the charges got re-instated - didn't they? 


http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2016/12/22/north-carolina-releases-ncaa-notice-of-allegations/95750108/

In fact, they were broadened from just football to include men's basketball.  UNC may not have noticed since they were busy preparing for the Sun Bowl.  And now they are playing for the national championship of men's basketball.  I really don't understand sometimes why we even bother to have an oversight authority like the NCAA. 

Re: Crime doesn't pay!!!! - M T - 04-02-2017

I'd love to see a social media campaign (with whatever marker there is for MBB FF) demanding to see the North Carolina response to the allegations that was due on March 13, 2017.

I actually don't think the NCAA is wrong by letting NC play, because the process hasn't finished, and NC hasn't yet been found guilty of the alleged violations, and no current students are in the set of students for which violations are alleged.  But, I would hope that NC gets hit very hard if allegations are shown to be true and as serious and long-standing as they seem to be.  Something like 5 years of neither football nor basketball and other offending sports, starting in 3 years, to give student-athletes time to graduate, but making NC an athletics desert for 5 years, forcing coaches to find other institutions, etc.  (How do you account for 18 years of alleged violations?  You can't go back and give those students a real college education.  Negating all their wins during those years would be laughed at and never noticed after the first week.)



Re: Crime doesn't pay!!!! - winflop - 04-02-2017

Waiting for the results of the investigation, but in this case I don't care as much about the impact to current players. This is a case of an entire system geared toward helping players cheat. There is a department-level failure here encompassing multiple programs, and the department needs to be punished.

Re: Crime doesn't pay!!!! - fullmetal - 04-02-2017

Where there's smoke, there's fire.  I think there's sufficient evidence that UNC did not abide by the spirit, if not the letter, of the NCAA's regulations.

Having said that, I don't think crime is an accurate word to use here, esp given the antics of Baylor recently :(  (Yeah, and Baylor got both basketball teams to dance in March...)

Re: Crime doesn't pay!!!! - Griffins78 - 04-02-2017

This is a farce. The investigations take so long (purposefully) as to negate any impact on the perpetrators. If and when any penalties are enforced the athletes and people actually impacted will have had nothing to do with the illegal acts.

They should impose bans to post season play if there is enough evidence to investigate cheating and if proven they should impose more penalties. Otherwise they actually give incentive and teach proven methods for cheating.

Re: Crime doesn't pay!!!! - OutsiderFan - 04-02-2017

Here's an "outside the box" punishment idea if UNC is guilty:

Leave the sports alone, but limit the enrollment at UNC Chapel Hill for a couple years, like maybe a 25% reduction.  This would seriously hurt the university's bottom line, and it would be the gift that keeps on taking away, as the alumni base would be shrunk for eternity.  Hit a school in the pocketbook like this and it will be a cold day in hell when another one commits academic fraud, if UNC in fact did.

Re: Crime doesn't pay!!!! - CTcard - 04-02-2017

(04-02-2017, 05:58 AM)MT link Wrote:I'd love to see a social media campaign (with whatever marker there is for MBB FF) demanding to see the North Carolina response to the allegations that was due on March 13, 2017.

Whatever response they make (have made) will certainly become public as it is covered by FOI laws.

Here is a UNC web site devoted to the issue. The most recent update is from last December, so it is not entirely clear from this site whether UNC filed a March 13 response.
http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/updates/


(04-02-2017, 07:13 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:Here's an "outside the box" punishment idea if UNC is guilty:

Leave the sports alone, but limit the enrollment at UNC Chapel Hill for a couple years, like maybe a 25% reduction. 

You do realize, don't you, that outside of the intercollegiate sports program the NCAA has no jurisdiction whatsoever as to how UNC (or any university) operates?


If you want to look into what happened and what UNC has done or not done about it, there are a ton of documents available on the web site I linked above. The most complete document, and the one that the NCAA is basing the current charges on, was commissioned by UNC from Ken Wainsstein, a former FBI chief counsel (or something like that). Don't know if he has any particular ties to UNC.
http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/files/2014/10/UNC-FINAL-REPORT.pdf

Re: Crime doesn't pay!!!! - OutsiderFan - 04-02-2017

Yes, I am aware of the NCAA's jurisdiction.  That's why I said "outside the box" in my post. Just one fan's idea in "perfect world" situation.

Re: Crime doesn't pay!!!! - fullmetal - 04-03-2017

I think we all agree that it's a travesty that UNC be given the privilege of contending for a national title while still under suspicion/investigation of academic fraud.  How would any measure of justice recoup all that money, TV time, and program prestige?  How would any sanction be fair to the kids, who are pawns in the game of college hungry, hungry hippo sports?  Clearly it is better to ask forgiveness rather than permission, and that's how we end up with the Baylors, Penn States, UNCs, and Miamis of the world.  Gone are the days when the NCAA had the spine to sanction SMU.  I think such penalties should be more frequent.  The age of 24/7 ESPN and the internet will ensure that programs under the death penalty can easily resurrect themselves with the right exposure and resources.

Re: Crime doesn't pay!!!! - 82lsju - 04-03-2017

(04-02-2017, 08:29 AM)CTcard link Wrote:If you want to look into what happened and what UNC has done or not done about it, there are a ton of documents available on the web site I linked above. The most complete document, and the one that the NCAA is basing the current charges on, was commissioned by UNC from Ken Wainsstein, a former FBI chief counsel (or something like that). Don't know if he has any particular ties to UNC.
http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/files/2014/10/UNC-FINAL-REPORT.pdf

various positions with no obvious connections to UNC

his education

Ken earned his B.A. from the University of Virginia, with high distinction and Phi Beta Kappa. He earned his J.D. from the University of California at Berkeley, where he was a moot court board member and the Note and Comment Editor of the California Law Review. Following law school, Ken served as law clerk to the Honorable Thomas Penfield Jackson of the U.S. District Court in the District of Columbia.

http://www.cadwalader.com/professionals/kenneth-wainstein

Re: Crime doesn't pay!!!! - fishman - 04-03-2017

The notion that UNC is just "under suspicion" as opposed to plain old guilty has long been dispelled by an excellent series of articles in the Raleigh News & Observer:

  http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/

UNC is challenging the NCAA's jurisdiction over the issues and raising procedural issues, but has already been partially sanctioned.  The NCAA's commitment to effective oversight of major college sports is questionable at best, so whether further sanctions will be imposed is not so much a question of guilt as it is of the NCAA's willingness to accept its oversight responsibilities.

The only real issue is how guilty the men's basketball program is and who was either actively participating or deliberately ignorant.  The facts of phony classes and heavy participation in them by football and men's basketball players have been established beyond debate.  A superficial review, more of a whitewash, conducted by a former governor found "academic" misconduct, but no "athletic" misconduct.  It was only when an independent review was conducted by an outside attorney that the real dimensions of the scandal came into the open.  The NCAA has dithered for years, making a mockery of its pledges and ads proclaiming its dedication to "student athletes".  Unfortunately the Final Four is a major showcase for the NCAA, but the participants often fit the description of "athletes", but not of "students".  One-and-dones are the glaring examples.

Re: Crime doesn't pay!!!! - BostonCard - 04-03-2017

And proof that Karma doesn't really exist; the tarholes won the national championship.

BC

Re: Crime doesn't pay!!!! - winflop - 04-04-2017

I guess crime does pay in college sports.

Re: Crime doesn't pay!!!! - BobK - 04-04-2017

This is the story of the WBB players who left  North Carolina
When the problems started becoming public

https://charlotteobserver.relaymedia.com/amp/sports/college/mens-basketball/article25027441.html