The CardBoard
Pining for EUTM - Printable Version

+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Pining for EUTM (/thread-14342.html)


Pining for EUTM - CornFed - 09-20-2017

In almost every way I prefer our football now to that prior to Harbaugh's departure.  Do not misinterpret me, though.  I enjoyed our rejuvenation under Harbaugh with every fiber of my being.  I simply like the role Stanford football has achieved under Shaw of being an established factor in college football, even perhaps a football power.

There is an element that is becoming less perceptible, however, as time marches on.  It feels as though we are getting slightly more detached from the concept of EUTM and have fewer and fewer Skov-like personalities.  I think Harbaugh evoked such maniacal devotion to winning and it feels like our team is now comprised of skilled, gentlemen ballers (to characaturize somewhat).  One thread suggested that perhaps our playbook has become a bible and players are paralyzed with the complexity, afraid of sinning.

Shaw himself is most almost always a soft-spoken, thoughtful person.  I have not seen him in practice, but it is very hard for me to envision him being, well, "maniacal".  Another thread discussed the fact that lately he does seem to be getting uncharacteristically perturbed and has gotten short with reporters and so on.  But that is exactly the point.  Even his pique is subdued, almost passive aggressive.

There are tea leaves strewn all over the place, there are lots of groundless concerns on which I can expend my fretful energies.  I just wanted to know if folks out there think that this is real or imagined on my part.  I can always move on to other tea leaves.

Re: Pining for EUTM - 2006alum - 09-20-2017

I think there's some truth to this, but I also think it's hard to maintain EUTM on a sustained basis. Harbaugh has notably failed to clock more than half a decade at any of the places he's coached. And I also think EUTM can be GOO (grating on others), and over time, more and more grating. It's easy to ride a momentum wave of hunger and desire to prove oneself, and infinitely harder to maintain that hunger after seasons of continued success. That doesn't speak to Shaw's personality, which I agree is more mercurial and subdued, but I also think he probably is much, much easier to deal with for the administrators, the University higher ups, and the fans. Harbaugh is great at coming in a shaking things up, but every place he's been, he's either moved (SDSU and LSJU) on or shaken things until they got sick of the quakes (49ers). I'll be very curious to see if he stays at UM past 2020.

Re: Pining for EUTM - fullmetal - 09-20-2017

Shaw is the right guy for the right place.  However, his assistant coaches need some examining, and I'm not sure Shaw can do that objectively in such a trusting atmosphere and coming off a recent span of successes.

We just need TWU 2.0.

Re: Pining for EUTM - Snorlax94 - 09-20-2017

So, I think your concern is that, while you prefer Stanford football now, you feel Stanford is losing a cultural competitive edge, that the cultural competitive advantage came from Harbaugh's "enthusiasm unknown to mankind" style and that Shaw's understated, calm personality is the cause of losing that cultural advantage?

First, I will say, I admire Harbaugh. I really do think he is crazy, but I think there only a few extraordinary coaches who could have turned around Stanford's Teevens-Harris era as quickly as he did.

And to my recollection, Stanford tried very hard to retain Harbaugh.

But I think we're agreeing that Harbaugh wasn't the right long-term coach for Stanford. One of the arguments against Harbaugh is that he wears out his welcome after a few years. Another argument is that he gets close, but he has never captured the prize, both as a player as a coach. He went to the Rose Bowl as a player, did not win, and never made it as a coach.  He made it to the AFC championship game as a player, and to the Super Bowl as a coach, but did not win. I think it actually makes it worse for the players that he gets so close time and time again without winning the big one.

As for David Shaw, he has gone to 3 Rose Bowls and won 2. I would pick my favorite Stanford game (since 1991) as the 2016 Rose Bowl (I recognize many may say the USC upset). And that was a team with Shaw-recruited players.

Now, as for losing the intellectual brutality label? I think every leader is different, and has a different style. Yes, of course, stylistically, Shaw is like the opposite of Harbaugh. I think to some degree Stanford may attract different players, who will play a different way. But I just think that's the way leadership and people are. I think it would be a mistake to try to follow one successful coach with someone whose personality seems most like the previous coach's. I think Stanford followed one great coach with another great coach, which is the most important similarity.

So yes, the culture is different, the style is different, to some extent, we'll get some recruits we didn't get before and may lose some recruits we would've gotten before, but I am OK with that. I had the feeling Luck preferred Shaw and may not have stayed that year if Harbaugh hadn't left. But are we losing intellectual brutality? I've missed the style the last 2 games, but I am counting an awful lot of pancakes this season. Was that Herbig who just totalled some guy while pulling during the SD State game?

Do I think the USC and SD State losses (or even the Northwestern loss) stem from Stanford being less physical or less committed? I do not. I think you're pretty much always gonna lose some games. And many teams in the Pac 12 are resurgent.  I think SD State is a pretty good team. And I do think the losses of Randy Hart and Pep Hamilton are significant and sometimes you lose irreplaceable assistants and sometimes you gain Duane Akina..

But I think it's perfectly natural and actually a good thing that Shaw has his own way of doing things.


Re: Pining for EUTM - Phogge - 09-20-2017

Sustaining what Harballs created has surprised me. Good for Shaw. But I was at SI when Vince Tringali had EUTM and I prefer it. The current team is yet to show it. The '17 Ducks have it.

Re: Pining for EUTM - martyup - 09-20-2017

I agree Cornfed.  I don't see the fire in these guys. 

Maybe they need to implement the "ring of fire drill."  Ten players form a ring with a 10 yard diameter.  The players are numbered 1 through 10 clockwise.  Each player takes a turn in the center.  When in the center, you assume a hitting stance while chugging your feet.  The coach calls out random numbers, one at a time, and the player with the number  called charges in and tries to knock down the guy in the center.  The guy in the center has to meet the blocker and repel the charge.  It is INTENSE. 

Re: Pining for EUTM - North Woods - 09-20-2017

Harbaugh's brand of crazy came with high accountability that got us to levels we never expected. While I agree his approach was unsustainable as a long term Stanford fit, I fear that Shaw slightly under-indexes on that and over time this will continue to diminish if not counterbalanced by others on the staff or even players that are empowered to set the right tone e.g. Skov.

Sadly a quote from Stanford Football itself seems appropriate here: "You are getting better or you are getting worse. You never stay the same." Before we had less talent but overachieved. We are getting more talent, but without the right culture every day at practice we won't necessarily get better results.

BTW, Mike Montgomery was an example of someone who sustainably maintained this environment (with the benefit of some players like Brevin as well). I don't think a Harbaugh-like personality is the only way to pull this off. Hopefully Shaw can find a good balance of this without changing who he is and what makes him (still) a great fit for Stanford.

Re: Pining for EUTM - TreesAndBirds - 09-20-2017

The problem in part is that Stanford is now a "safe pick" for high school athletes. It's not like it was when people came here to build a program, to "shock the world".  Now they come to a program that is built and it is their job to sustain it. That attracts a different type of person.

I have been in Silicon Valley a long time, and see the same thing in a number of institutions that use to attract people who wanted to build something new and change the world, and now want a safe choice with little downside risk.

Some institutions are successful for a long time because they can attract so much talent they will remain great. But Stanford will always be a bit thin on talent due to obvious admissions limitations, and need to make up for that with EUTM, or a chip on the shoulder, or something that makes the whole bigger than the parts.

I dont want to say they dont have it or cant have it, but I'm not sure who is stepping up  to provide the catalyst that makes a good team a great team.

It can be a highly emotional person like Harbaugh or Skov, but I think it can also be someone like Hogan, who dealt with personal tragedy while giving it all on the field, or Andrew who would throw his body into a play like a linebacker when needed. There is more than one way, but there needs to be someone who can make the whole greater than the sum of the parts.


Re: Pining for EUTM - BostonCard - 09-20-2017

(09-20-2017, 04:35 PM)North Woods link Wrote:BTW, Mike Montgomery was an example of someone who sustainably maintained this environment (with the benefit of some players like Brevin as well). I don't think a Harbaugh-like personality is the only way to pull this off. Hopefully Shaw can find a good balance of this without changing who he is and what makes him (still) a great fit for Stanford.

Mike Montgomery is also a cautionary tale because a lot of fans disparaged him for being effective during the season and then watching his teams tank during the post-season.  So he left and we got a guy who at Nevada took his teams further into the post-season than expected, but when he came to Stanford did ok but not spectacularly and when the AD treated him like he did ok but not spectacularly he bolted.  The following coach struggled even to do ok.  And while I'm hopeful that Haase has brought what Montgomery had back to Stanford (players who have great fundamentals, work well as a team, execute effectively, etc.) we will see if he pulls it off.

Shaw has been here for 6+ seasons.  In his worst season to date, he won 8 games and took us to a bowl game.  That season "sucked" but if when I was a student someone offered me the possibility to root for a future Stanford team that occasionally "sucks" that much, I would have happily taken it.

BC

Re: Pining for EUTM - CornFed - 09-20-2017

I knew a fellow who was probably the most incredible person I have ever met.  His personal achievements were other-worldly, but what made him memorable was his simple presence.

He had graduated from high school as valedictorian of his class (which makes him less than notable at Stanford -  :D).  He then entered the Marines , completed basic training and served a hitch there.  After the military, he matriculated at Princeton and became the valedictorian of his class there.  Upon graduation from Princeton he enter the Peace Corps, serving in Africa.  When he was done there, he was accepted at Harvard Business, where he was named a Baker Scholar.  When he left school his career began with McKinsey & Associates.  His first project was with the largest beef packer in the world, where he ultimately was employed as Group VP - Operations.

Pretty amazing resume, right?  I rented a room from him at one time and he talked at length occasionally regarding those experiences.  His thoughts, though, would almost always revolve most heavily around his basic training as a Marine.

It was there that he learned that his limitations were nearly all psychological.  He had many situations where his instructors took him up to, and then substantially beyond his physical, emotional and mental limits.  He was incredible, not in his phycal stature but rather in his composure and self assurance. 

Many of the athletes at Stanford have this remarkable capacity in both depth and breadth of talent.  They demonstrate regularly that they can take on a variety of challenges and not just succeed, but thrive.

I do think that someone like Harbaugh challenged them to push even harder to exceed their own expectations.  It must be a truly exalting sensation.

I think it's just that one final exhortation just at the ideal moment that can really open one's eyes.  To find a level that breeches entirely new strata and carries natural talent to inconceivable outcomes.

Re: Pining for EUTM - CowboyIndian - 09-20-2017

(09-20-2017, 04:29 PM)martyup link Wrote:Maybe they need to implement the "ring of fire drill."  Ten players form a ring with a 10 yard diameter.  The players are numbered 1 through 10 clockwise.  Each player takes a turn in the center.  When in the center, you assume a hitting stance while chugging your feet.  The coach calls out random numbers, one at a time, and the player with the number  called charges in and tries to knock down the guy in the center.  The guy in the center has to meet the blocker and repel the charge.  It is INTENSE.

Called "Bull in the Ring" way back when we were Indians.

Re: Pining for EUTM - Hurlburt88 - 09-21-2017

Diversity is critical.  Do we have enough assistant coaches with more visible fire?  My sense was Mason had some of that external intensity.   

Re: Pining for EUTM - fullmetal - 09-21-2017

CornFed, I think the Marines also teach you how to focus intensely and dedicate yourself to a purpose, a task, a mission.  That kind of focus drives execution speed and quality.

I need to put away my smartphone.



Re: Pining for EUTM - martyup - 09-21-2017

(09-20-2017, 06:20 PM)CornFed link Wrote:I think it's just that one final exhortation just at the ideal moment that can really open one's eyes.  To find a level that breeches entirely new strata and carries natural talent to inconceivable outcomes.

That is the essence of great performance.  A coach/mentor that can draw that out of a player is special and rare.

Re: Pining for EUTM - Snorlax94 - 09-21-2017

One thing I think we should consider is that, as far as I know, head coaches are not necessarily directly involved in the day-to-day of each player.

There are the seniors, the captains, and other team leaders, who are especially important because so many activities are "voluntary" and coaches cannot be present.

As many have noted, the person most involved day-to-day in a player's physical development is Shannon Turley.

On a day-to-day practice basis (and even during gametime), it's the assistant coaches. Last year, I mentioned seeing Coach Bloomgren get into a lineman's grill during the Rice game. During the Iowa Rose Bowl, I remember watching Coach Hart fire up the D Linemen. I remember seeing Coach Hart dissatisfied with Lute Kaumatule's performance on a drill, and Coach Hart explodes, gets in his face, yells some stuff I didn't hear, followed by, "This the Rose Bowl!!" Lute, from what I heard, a generally calm and gentle person, got pissed off and starting walking after Coach Hart, when one of his teammates grabbed him to calm him down. Now Kaumatule, you may recall, was redshirting that year, so he wasn't going to play. And yet here Coach Hart was, screaming when one redshirt player didn't do 1 warm-up rep to his satisfaction and standard. And that was Randy Hart, verteran of 10 Rose Bowls as a coach and player.

So, I think EUTM is more appropriate for an assistant coach, and in particular, line coaches. On the other hand, it seems many coaches are very protective of the feelings and the proper alignment of the aura for their quarterbacks.

And I don't recall seeing very many of the most successful college coaches being manic. Sure, I have seen Urban Meyer, Chris Petersen and Nick Saban get *pissed* (especially Saban), but I don't think of them as hyper-emotional, insane, drill sergeant types in recent years. And they seem to do just fine.

On the flip side, if you want manic, super-emotional head coaches, shouldn't we include Steve Spurrier, Brian Kelly and Bobby Knight (I know, switching sports here).

If Stanford were someday hiring a new head coach (hopefully, not for a very, very long time), I would not be saying, oh please, please, I want a Spurrier-Kelly-Knight type of personality.

I think it is important to separate one part of Enthusiasm Unknown to Mankind which is commitment, energy, long works hours, and dedication. Another part of Harbaugh's energy is his persona.

Not everyone who has Harbaugh's persona works as hard as him. Again, I don't think someone needs to act like Harbaugh to be a successful coach (and again, I think Shaw has been more successful). I think what we really need is the dedication, work and commitment. A willingness to continually improve, to continually get better and to demand that of others, and to outwork, out-energy and out-commit your competition. That is the part of EUTM that you continually want regardless of the personality.  And I think overall, Shaw has shown these traits in general if you take the last 5 years as a whole.

And since people have brought up military leaders, I have known many incredible, just amazing members of America's armed forces who are low-key, chill, even stoic people, and I don't think that personality does not mean they are in any way inferior as leaders or soldiers. In fact, most military officers I've known were quite un-Harbaugh-like.



Re: Pining for EUTM - winflop - 09-21-2017

Harbaugh was the right man at the time he was hired. So was Shaw. I doubt it would have been successful if done the other way around.

That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing someone on D emerge as the emotional leader a la Skov, Solomon Thomas, etc. Ditto on O. Need to light some fire under this team ASAP.

Re: Pining for EUTM - Goose - 09-21-2017

(09-21-2017, 09:00 PM)winflop link Wrote:That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing someone on D emerge as the emotional leader a la Skov, Solomon Thomas, etc. Ditto on O. Need to light some fire under this team ASAP.
I think we certainly could use some urgency on the OL. It does appear that there is a lack of leadership there. I think Phillips is an adequate leader on the DL, but I don't know. It does seem there is no overall leader on the defense, like Skov was, or even Dallas Loyd last year. Hard to know from outside, but I don't see fire in the belly out there.

Re: Pining for EUTM - winflop - 09-22-2017

Good point on Phillips he does seem to be that kind of leader, but agreed there's nobody on O that is visible as that kind of leader