Doing some dot-connecting - Printable Version

Doing some dot-connecting - Printable Version

+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Doing some dot-connecting (/thread-16246.html)

Pages: 1 2

Doing some dot-connecting - OutsiderFan - 08-08-2018

In another thread someone said they didn't believe defenses would ever back off stacking the box against Stanford, particularly with Love being the threat he is. This seems like an overlooked question to be pondering.

While it is true the Stanford OL and run game is one of the best in the country, it's also true that Stanford has receiving weapons, including Love, that make stacking the box a very risky proposition for defenses. Any good receiver eats up on-on-one coverage, particularly when the QB has time to throw. I just don't see how defenses can afford to stack the box this season.

To put a finer point on this, David Shaw's own comments have suggested he isn't going to be pounding his head into a wall this season. Sure, you can run and get nothing, run and get nothing, then get a big run, but that's simply not efficient offense. Dominant offense - that Stanford can play given its personnel riches - punishes defenses for deploying too many resources to stop one thing. And it's balanced. Shaw has said this season the goal is to be a balanced offense. That doesn't sound like the type of offense a defense can stack the box against.

Another thing. I think people may be overlooking the impact of Kevin Carberry. Sure Bloomgren had some solid success, but Carberry coached some really good OLs in the NFL. My suspicion is Carberry may be better teaching pass blocking than Bloomgren was.

Everything Shaw has said points to more passing from Stanford in 2018. Is this because he expects defenses to stack the box? Is he trying to ward them off stacking it? I don't know, but Love being used in the passing game more, a goal to be more balanced on offense, a new OL coach, and OC who was a former QB, sure suggests a more aggressive offense that makes the defense defend much more of the field will be the brand of the 2018 offense.

Really want to see the RBs involved as receivers more. We know Love is a good receiver, and am hoping Heimuli is incorporated as well given what he showed in Spring. I just watched Colorado-Stanford from 1993 on YouTube over the last few nights. Shaw was on that Walsh team. He knows how effective the backs can be in the passing game! Great way to increase completion percentage, which is another stated goal this season.

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - 82lsju - 08-08-2018

I'd also like to see Bryce Love with more receptions

2015
29 rushes
15 receptions
1.9:1

2016
111 rushes
8 receptions
14:1

2017
263 rushes
6 receptions
44:1

which compares unfavorably to Christian McCaffrey rush/reception utilization

2014
42 rushes
17 receptions
2.5:1

2015
337 rushes
45 receptions
7.5:1

2016
253 rushes
37 receptions
6.8:1

If Bryce Love has ~250 rushes this season I'd sure like to also see 35-40 receptions

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - OutsiderFan - 08-08-2018

My ideal Love per game usage pattern:

~ 20-25 rushes
~ 3-5 receptions

He can be used in play actions and draw defenses with motion to open up things for other guys.

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - Goose - 08-08-2018

(08-08-2018, 02:08 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: My ideal Love per game usage pattern:

~ 20-25 rushes
~ 3-5 receptions

He can be used in play actions and draw defenses with motion to open up things for other guys.

Very good point. Often after a "fake" handoff, the running back is ignored. Do that with Love and you should be made to pay big time. I don't expect us to use Love as a receiver as much as we did CMac, but we should use him enough that it hurts the opponent if they don't ALLWAYS cover him. And for sure, he can outrun a linebacker. So, who do you cover him with?

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - lex24 - 08-09-2018

Stanford’s screen game last year - be it bubble or traditional - was awful. That’s an area that needs to improve. Also I’d like to see Love used as a check down option occasionally. Not sure he is the downfield receiver that McCaffrey was. So I don’t see him being used in the slo running option routes ala McCaffrey. Maybe an occasional wheel route. But generally swings and screens a couple times a game.

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - CTcard - 08-09-2018

Roundabout on this thread.

Love and RBs in the pass game.

Love wasn't used nearly as much in the pass game as McCaffrey partly because he's not nearly as good at it, partly because he was so banged up his snaps were somewhat limited (and running was his most important role), and partly because Stanford didn't employ any backs in the pass game much.

Stanford hasn't been a big swing/screen-team for awhile now. Last year was more extreme. RBs caught a total of 16 passes last year - a little over one per game. [A possible caveat is that Wedington had 31 receptions, while I don't remember any of those out of the backfield I am not certain that was so.] I am not exactly sure why we saw that development. It could be that the QBs weren't as proficient at that sort of play, could be the RB skill set, could be a random function of game situation.

I thought the overlooked potential here was Scarlett. He caught only six passes (the same number as Love), but he had two good plays in the Alamo Bowl and two good early season catch and run plays. Thus Scarlett ended up with a ridiculous 29 yds/catch. Obviously that isn't sustainable over a larger workload, but I thought he looked pretty good catching the ball and could be more productive there.

And of course even if Love isn't a great receiver, it's still worth throwing to him more often. Obviously getting Love the ball in a place where he has some space to move is a great thing. And it would be good for Love's career as it would seem that the NFL would call on him to be a pass catcher.

On opponents stacking the box

I find this both an interesting topic and one difficult to discuss with clarity.
The discussion gets confused because there is no specific definition of stacking the box; generally everybody does it sometimes and never all the time; and sometimes the box is "stacked" for purposes of blitzing in a passing situation, which is a different deal.

I just spent some time going back over last seasons games to check our opponents defensive alignments. On standard downs Stanford saw a lot of defenses with either one safety back or two back but one looking to crash the LOS at the snap in run support. Actually having no safeties deep seemed to only happen in third and short type situations or for blitzing the passer on passing downs.

Some teams tended to play us with two safeties deep, ASU notably and we burned them, with Love running for 301 yards. That isn't the sort of performance that makes other teams want to copy.

I think it deserves more analysis, but my guess is that we won't see a lot of defenses hanging further back on standard downs until we repeatedly are more devastating passing than running. And my further guess is that won't be 2018.

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - Mick - 08-09-2018

(08-09-2018, 12:56 PM)CTcard Wrote: Love wasn't used nearly as much in the pass game as McCaffrey partly because he's not nearly as good at it, partly because he was so banged up his snaps were somewhat limited (and running was his most important role), and partly because Stanford didn't employ any backs in the pass game much.

Gaffaney (32), Gearhart (39), Love (29), Volpe (47), Dotterer (77)

Darrin Nelson, 214 passes at Stanford in four years. Vince White, 162 passes in four years. Muster, 198 passes in four years. Sigh.

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - CardinalSagehen - 08-09-2018

It doesn't mean much, but here's yet another dot to connect. The Stanford Football update from 8/3/18 had the following to say on the matter:

Quote:When he wasn't attending classes, Love was often catching passes on the practice field.

"Having Bryce back there really takes the weight off a lot of our shoulders," said Costello. "Then again, it's our responsibility to take the weight off his shoulders as well. He's worked really hard this offseason, getting his body back, building his body up, working out of the backfield, working on his routes."

I've seen Love on the wheel route and the screen, but I'd also love to see him running this CMac Classic!

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - Spiny_Norman - 08-09-2018

(08-09-2018, 05:16 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote: I've seen Love on the wheel route

Let's remind ourselves of what that looked like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_afb5sVS8iU&feature=youtu.be&t=18m31s

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - lex24 - 08-09-2018

Remember, at the combine they said McCaffrey ran the best routes not only of running backs, but the wide receivers as well. It’s unrealistic to expect Love to be able to run the option route like McCaffrey did. I think Love is actually a better pure runner carrying the football. He’s faster, quicker, and I think he actually finishes a little better than McCaffrey. But as a receiver there simply is no comparison.

(08-09-2018, 05:39 PM)Spiny_Norman Wrote:
(08-09-2018, 05:16 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote: I've seen Love on the wheel route

Let's remind ourselves of what that looked like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_afb5sVS8iU&feature=youtu.be&t=18m31s

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - Goose - 08-09-2018

(08-09-2018, 05:39 PM)Spiny_Norman Wrote:
(08-09-2018, 05:16 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote: I've seen Love on the wheel route

Let's remind ourselves of what that looked like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_afb5sVS8iU&feature=youtu.be&t=18m31s

Quite pretty! This clip also shows why we didn't run that play much. The throw to an uncovered Love is so late he actually has to stop and wait for it. Obviously, you need a QB that can throw that route on time and hopefully in stride. Hope to see KJ doing exactly that!

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - CardinalSagehen - 08-09-2018

(08-09-2018, 06:03 PM)lex24 Wrote: Remember, at the combine they said McCaffrey ran the best routes not only of running backs, but the wide receivers as well. It’s unrealistic to expect Love to be able to run the option route like McCaffrey did. I think Love is actually a better pure runner carrying the football. He’s faster, quicker, and I think he actually finishes a little better than McCaffrey. But as a receiver there simply is no comparison.

(08-09-2018, 05:39 PM)Spiny_Norman Wrote:
(08-09-2018, 05:16 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote: I've seen Love on the wheel route

Let's remind ourselves of what that looked like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_afb5sVS8iU&feature=youtu.be&t=18m31s

Nobody’s saying Love has to be as good as McCaffrey at running routes. I agree that’s unrealistic.

In fact, in our current offense, most of McCaffrey’s slot routes seem to have been passed down to Wedington (along with Rector’s bubbles screens, for that matter).

But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t throw more to Love out of the backfield, or that we shouldn’t attempt to punish ILBs that creep up, such as in the Rose Bowl play.

In any case, I’ll settle for whatever works, including pretty wheel routes a la Sun Bowl! Speed kills, in so many different ways...

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - 82lsju - 08-09-2018

(08-09-2018, 03:23 PM)Mick Wrote:
(08-09-2018, 12:56 PM)CTcard Wrote: Love wasn't used nearly as much in the pass game as McCaffrey partly because he's not nearly as good at it, partly because he was so banged up his snaps were somewhat limited (and running was his most important role), and partly because Stanford didn't employ any backs in the pass game much.

Gaffaney (32), Gearhart (39), Love (29), Volpe (47), Dotterer (77)

Darrin Nelson, 214 passes at Stanford in four years. Vince White, 162 passes in four years. Muster, 198 passes in four years. Sigh.

"Touchdown" Tommy Vardell 78 receptions in his career with 26 receptions and 247 rushes his senior year.....

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - lex24 - 08-09-2018

Agree completely. In fact I said so in an earlier post. Swings and screens. Especially swing passes. I simply don’t understand why he’s not used more in that capacity. As for screens – particularly traditional screens – I’m not sure that this offensive line blocks well enough in space to run those effectively. At least that seemed to be an issue last year. The screen game was simply awful. It wasn’t used much – but when it was it wasn’t pretty. I really hope that improves

As for Wedington- I hope to see him used in the slot a lot. Put more speed on the field.

quote="CardinalSagehen" pid='227620' dateline='1533865649']

(08-09-2018, 06:03 PM)lex24 Wrote: Remember, at the combine they said McCaffrey ran the best routes not only of running backs, but the wide receivers as well. It’s unrealistic to expect Love to be able to run the option route like McCaffrey did. I think Love is actually a better pure runner carrying the football. He’s faster, quicker, and I think he actually finishes a little better than McCaffrey. But as a receiver there simply is no comparison.

(08-09-2018, 05:39 PM)Spiny_Norman Wrote:
(08-09-2018, 05:16 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote: I've seen Love on the wheel route

Let's remind ourselves of what that looked like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_afb5sVS8iU&feature=youtu.be&t=18m31s

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - Goose - 08-09-2018

Scarlett runs the wheel route very well. He can get deep on this play. It would be interesting to see some two back sets with Love and Scarlett, as in the Sun Bowl. Run Love and Scarlett both a few times (so the formation is not a tell) and the wheel will be open!

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - CTcard - 08-09-2018

Since I was trying to promote Scarlett as a receiver, thought I would put the key plays up to peruse.

Rice
https://youtu.be/RRWw5kaBtR4?t=59m42s
$C
https://youtu.be/96eplSJllww?t=1h58m30s
Alamo Bowl
https://youtu.be/jihsh3P-2J4?t=1h34m38s
https://youtu.be/jihsh3P-2J4?t=1h59m58s

Only the one vs $C was a screen, otherwise swings and wheels.
It's really the two in the Alamo bowl that look smooth.

And in this game I found at least one Wedington catch swinging out of the backfield.
https://youtu.be/jihsh3P-2J4?t=26m26s
I suspect we'll see more of that, though particularly in 2019.

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - qwerty49 - 08-10-2018

Thanks for the clips, CT.

Masochist that I am, I couldn’t resist watching the end of the Alamo Bowl, which was the last sighting of our defense. It reminded me painfully that our front 7 consisted of Harry, Okereke and 5 other guys who seemed way overmatched. And now Harry’s gone.

If your defense is slow, it needs to be physical. Ours was not.

We can dream all we want to about an 11-man Ogre formation, but I fear the reality is that there will be a few opponents who will take our D to the woodshed. I admit I’m cringing at the prospect of yet another year watching Perez lose another foot race to a hole or a ball carrier.

I think it’s best to go into this year with low expectations for the D, that way only pleasant surprises can occur. That’s really the only dot-connecting I care to do at this point.

(08-09-2018, 09:23 PM)CTcard Wrote: Since I was trying to promote Scarlett as a receiver, thought I would put the key plays up to peruse.

Rice
https://youtu.be/RRWw5kaBtR4?t=59m42s
$C
https://youtu.be/96eplSJllww?t=1h58m30s
Alamo Bowl
https://youtu.be/jihsh3P-2J4?t=1h34m38s
https://youtu.be/jihsh3P-2J4?t=1h59m58s

Only the one vs $C was a screen, otherwise swings and wheels.
It's really the two in the Alamo bowl that look smooth.

And in this game I found at least one Wedington catch swinging out of the backfield.
https://youtu.be/jihsh3P-2J4?t=26m26s
I suspect we'll see more of that, though particularly in 2019.

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - needle - 08-10-2018

I think it's within the realm of possibility that Okereke, Alfieri and, uhhh, someone else to play at an all-conference level. (I don't see an obvious candidate for a third star, but that doesn't mean there isn't someone poised to have a breakout year.)

If that happens, I think the rest of the guys can play at a level to make the defense better than last year.

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - OL84 - 08-10-2018

I also look forward to seeing how Tavita may do it differently than Bloomgren. Or perhaps how Shaw does it differently without Bloomgren. In recent years our formations and personnel have limited the options we have for mixing pass and run. While our heavy sets have worked for us, some additional play action, RB routes and pro style passing options give us more flexibility.

The impact of Bloomgren's departure and Tavita's promotion is one of the story lines I find most interesting this year. It may only reveal that it was Shaw's show along along, and we cannot expect the O to change personality. But I would like, at least, less conversation and far fewer delay of game penalties.

Hope springs eternal.

RE: Doing some dot-connecting - Spiny_Norman - 08-10-2018

Here is some news - Bryce Love is expected to return kicks this season.

https://gostanford.com/news/2018/8/9/football-looking-to-be-special.aspx

Quote: Q: Cameron Scarlett ranked first in the Pac-12 with 1,008 return yards last season and led the nation with 12 kickoff returns of 30 yards or longer.

A: He did a good job of getting the ball to that point, but one thing you don't want to do is get tackled by the kicker; I think we were tackled by the kicker five times. Cam has the ability break one. You'll see Bryce Love back there and I think Connor Wedington is starting to show and gaining our confidence as a returner for punts and kickoffs. I think another guy that has speed and is potentially in the process is Paulson Adebo. Trevor Speights is also in that mix.