Can Shaw Fix This? - Printable Version
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Can Shaw Fix This? - cardcrimson - 09-14-2019
Recruiting.
Scheme.
Conditioning.
Injuries.
Stupid mistakes.
Complacency.
Heart.
All disasters today and thus far this season.
Can he fix it? Will he even try? Complacency seems to start at the top with our program these days.
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - Mick - 09-14-2019
(09-14-2019, 02:31 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Recruiting.
Scheme.
Conditioning.
Stupid mistakes.
Complacency.
Heart.
All disasters today and thus far this season.
Can he fix it? Will he even try? Complacency seems to start at the top with our program these days.
No, I don't think Shaw can fix this, because he's been the cause of so much of it. He's made every long-term coaching mistake you can make. he hasn't changed with the times. His recruiting has gotten worse, not better. Stupid mistakes. Avalanches of injuries. Poor discipline. Russian doll-hiring of assistant coaches. You name it. Today's disaster is totally and completely on the Bradford M. Freeman Director of Football, one Mr. David Shaw. The wreckage is everywhere you look. This year, the chickens have come home to roost.
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - Brickcity - 09-14-2019
(09-14-2019, 02:46 PM)Mick Wrote:(09-14-2019, 02:31 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Recruiting.
Scheme.
Conditioning.
Stupid mistakes.
Complacency.
Heart.
All disasters today and thus far this season.
Can he fix it? Will he even try? Complacency seems to start at the top with our program these days.
No, I don't think Shaw can fix this, because he's been the cause of so much of it. He's made every long-term coaching mistake you can make. he hasn't changed with the times. His recruiting has gotten worse, not better. Stupid mistakes. Avalanches of injuries. Poor discipline. Russian doll-hiring of assistant coaches. You name it. Today's disaster is totally and completely on the Bradford M. Freeman Director of Football, one Mr. David Shaw. The wreckage is everywhere you look. This year, the chickens have come home to roost.
As I just asked in another thread on this topic, "would Harbaugh have allowed this to happen?" The point isn't that we need an elite coaching talent like Harbaugh. But, we do need someone who is aggressive, has balls and has his eyes on the prize.
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - 2006alum - 09-14-2019
(09-14-2019, 03:03 PM)Brickcity Wrote: As I just asked in another thread on this topic, "would Harbaugh have allowed this to happen?" The point isn't that we need an elite coaching talent like Harbaugh. But, we do need someone who is aggressive, has balls and has his eyes on the prize.
No, Harbaugh would not have. But the reason for this is that Harbaugh has never remained head coach at the same institution for more than 5 seasons, so he's never stuck around long enough to have the (IMHO) harder project of maintaining success across generations of players. It is much much harder to maintain than rebuild because it's nearly impossible for all involved to fully resist complacency creep.
As our wheels are falling off the wagon as we speak, it shows just how difficult it is to maintain a winning formula year after year after year. Harbaugh has never had to try.
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - BostonCard - 09-14-2019
(09-14-2019, 03:14 PM)2006alum Wrote:(09-14-2019, 03:03 PM)Brickcity Wrote: As I just asked in another thread on this topic, "would Harbaugh have allowed this to happen?" The point isn't that we need an elite coaching talent like Harbaugh. But, we do need someone who is aggressive, has balls and has his eyes on the prize.
No, Harbaugh would not have. But the reason for this is that Harbaugh has never remained head coach at the same institution for more than 5 seasons, so he's never stuck around long enough to have the (IMHO) harder project of maintaining success across generations of players. It is much much harder to maintain than rebuild because it's nearly impossible for all involved to fully resist complacency creep.
As our wheels are falling off the wagon as we speak, it shows just how difficult it is to maintain a winning formula year after year after year. Harbaugh has never had to try.
Right, Harbaugh would have bailed several years ago or burned all his bridges that people would have been hoping for him to leave despite his success.
BC
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - d4cohn - 09-14-2019
An important element to consider in this is how much have we been hurt by the decline in the Pac-12
writ large. Case in point, BYU now leading USC, Colorado loses at home today to Air Force after needing
a miracle to comeback against Nebraska, ASU losing at Michigan State despite MSU doing nothing
offensively, UCLA losing to Cincinnati and SDSU (latter at home), Arizona and Oregon State both
losing to Hawaii etc.
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - North Woods - 09-14-2019
(09-14-2019, 03:55 PM)d4cohn Wrote: An important element to consider in this is how much have we been hurt by the decline in the Pac-12
writ large.
If we were winning but just hurt by weak SOS, that would be one thing. When you don't win almost all of the games you play, the decline of the conference becomes somewhat secondary. And our schedule is tough as hell this year -- regrettably at this point.
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - CowboyIndian - 09-14-2019
(09-14-2019, 03:03 PM)Brickcity Wrote: The point isn't that we need an elite coaching talent like Harbaugh. But, we do need someone who is aggressive, has balls and has his eyes on the prize.
Harbaugh got as lucky as a man can get when Andrew Luck decided to come to SU. At Michigan, with every conceivable advantage, he has wallowed in just-above-mediocrity, despite highly-ranked recruiting classes. His balls got him a virtual tie with Army. He still can't find - or coach up - a decent QB. Plus...he's not coming back! Dream on!
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - cardcrimson - 09-14-2019
(09-14-2019, 07:48 PM)CowboyIndian Wrote:(09-14-2019, 03:03 PM)Brickcity Wrote: The point isn't that we need an elite coaching talent like Harbaugh. But, we do need someone who is aggressive, has balls and has his eyes on the prize.
Harbaugh got as lucky as a man can get when Andrew Luck decided to come to SU. At Michigan, with every conceivable advantage, he has wallowed in just-above-mediocrity, despite highly-ranked recruiting classes. His balls got him a virtual tie with Army. He still can't find - or coach up - a decent QB. Plus...he's not coming back! Dream on!
With all due respect, I don't think Harbaugh's success was all Luck. Harbaugh brought a mentality to Stanford. EUTM, remember? Harbaugh also brought intellectual brutality to the Farm. Even the announcers today seemed to lament its passing. And no, I don't want to see him come back. I'd just like some life injected into the program.
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - BostonCard - 09-14-2019
(09-14-2019, 07:48 PM)CowboyIndian Wrote:(09-14-2019, 03:03 PM)Brickcity Wrote: The point isn't that we need an elite coaching talent like Harbaugh. But, we do need someone who is aggressive, has balls and has his eyes on the prize.
Harbaugh got as lucky as a man can get when Andrew Luck decided to come to SU. At Michigan, with every conceivable advantage, he has wallowed in just-above-mediocrity, despite highly-ranked recruiting classes. His balls got him a virtual tie with Army. He still can't find - or coach up - a decent QB. Plus...he's not coming back! Dream on!
I think that's a bit harsh. I mean, he has three 10-win seasons in 4 years, and he's 40-14 in 4+ years. Of course, Shaw has more wins over the same period of time is actually better (41-15) , so there's that.
BC
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - winflop - 09-14-2019
(09-14-2019, 02:31 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Recruiting.
Scheme.
Conditioning.
Injuries.
Stupid mistakes.
Complacency.
Heart.
All disasters today and thus far this season.
Can he fix it? Will he even try? Complacency seems to start at the top with our program these days.
He could fix it, but it would require more change that I think he's willing to make:
- He needs new DC & OC. The OC needs to come from outside the Stanford family and needs to be given full playcalling authority. DC should too.
- He needs a new recruiting leader
- He needs some position coaches who will coach up nastiness
- He need to hire the next Turley
That'd be for starters. If we got one of these I'd consider it a major step forward.
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - yvonne - 09-14-2019
The thing that gets me is that I heard him give a Ted Talk in which he stressed how he believed that Stanford could win by being a hard-nosed, gritty team; how in the past high schools would direct Stanford staff to smart, but unathletic kids; and how he believed Stanford could be a place in which academics could be an asset to attract excellent players, rather than as a hurdle preventing them from attending. Last year, I heard him complain about the lack of Stanford-eligible players. It's like he forgot everything he said in the speech.
We need recruiting staff who can identify guys to play smash mouth football. We need to attract guys to play in the trenches. We need an offensive coordinator who has worked outside Stanford. The biggest mistake he's made is trying pat with the coaching staff.
I think the Harbaugh talk is a red herring. It's not like Stanford made this brobdingnagian mistake and fired him. He left. It was his choice. Stanford for a stepping stone. If he were to be fired from Michigan, it's more likely he'd take a non-coaching job there than come to Stanford. And even if he were to come back, there's no guarantee things would go the same. Remember Walsh?
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - Austroturf - 09-15-2019
(09-14-2019, 09:39 PM)winflop Wrote:(09-14-2019, 02:31 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Recruiting.
Scheme.
Conditioning.
Injuries.
Stupid mistakes.
Complacency.
Heart.
All disasters today and thus far this season.
Can he fix it? Will he even try? Complacency seems to start at the top with our program these days.
He could fix it, but it would require more change that I think he's willing to make:
- He needs new DC & OC. The OC needs to come from outside the Stanford family and needs to be given full playcalling authority. DC should too.
- He needs a new recruiting leader
- He needs some position coaches who will coach up nastiness
- He need to hire the next Turley
That'd be for starters. If we got one of these I'd consider it a major step forward.
Correct, winflop. In my view, Shaw has created a far too cozy family coaching culture, by promoting from within and not seeking outside talent. This is his biggest mistake. The right coaches turn 3 star players into 4 star players; and the 4-5 star players become superstars. The opposite dynamic now appears to plague us: talented players that cannot seem to pull it together. If anybody doubts this, ask yourself which coach on the current staff would be seriously targeted by another FBS program for a bigger job. Maybe Pete Alamar. Maybe. After that, no one. In the past, Harbaugh's and Shaw's lieutenants were always getting poached: Fangio, Mason, Hamilton, even Bloomgren. Ultimately, it all comes down to the coaches. As successful as Shaw has been, what will his coaching tree ultimately look like? Truly successful organizations spawn talented leaders. We have ceased to do this. And that is the ultimate cause of our downward trajectory and hits everything: recruiting, player development, game preparation, work ethic, toughness, etc. Harbaugh may have been the man who instilled "intellectual brutality" into Stanford football; but his most important accomplishment was assembling an excellent coaching staff, which has unfortunately atrophied since his departure. Until Shaw fixes this, the downward spiral will continue.
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - yvonne - 09-15-2019
I agree. This is the single biggest thing he could do to right the ship, although it won't happen until at least the off season.
The biggest example was promoting Tavita up the ranks. It's not that he's necessarily a bad position coach and someone who is passionate about Stanford, but he has limited perspective. Let him go outside, see some new philosophies, and maybe if there's an opening down the road, bring him back. It's nothing personal. It's about getting a mind trust. When people like Mason and Bloomgren leave, their positions need to be filled with people of equal caliber.
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - GK3 - 09-15-2019
(09-15-2019, 02:42 PM)yvonne Wrote: I agree. This is the single biggest thing he could do to right the ship, although it won't happen until at least the off season.
The biggest example was promoting Tavita up the ranks. It's not that he's necessarily a bad position coach and someone who is passionate about Stanford, but he has limited perspective. Let him go outside, see some new philosophies, and maybe if there's an opening down the road, bring him back. It's nothing personal. It's about getting a mind trust. When people like Mason and Bloomgren leave, their positions need to be filled with people of equal caliber.
I believe our problem is compounded by the fact that it is now HARDER to get into Stanford than it was when Harbaugh arrived. I am not at all sure the University cuts the athletic department as much slack in recruiting athletes as it used to do. Is the University willing to pay the kind of money it would take to get top notch coordinators? The figure might just be bigger than the University would be willing to pay and face the faculty and staff. The various boards are full of complaints about the people we didn't offer who had 4.0 averages, or a Wunderlich score of such and such. A 4.0 average is rather meaningless in terms of getting accepted, there is so much more that needs to be part of the package.
I am not at all sure that it is all that important to the current administration that we do well in the revenue sports any longer. There a lot of moving pieces involved in this issue and they all probably contribute to the current situation.
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - drnoodleman - 09-15-2019
(09-15-2019, 02:20 PM)Austroturf Wrote:(09-14-2019, 09:39 PM)winflop Wrote:(09-14-2019, 02:31 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Recruiting.
Scheme.
Conditioning.
Injuries.
Stupid mistakes.
Complacency.
Heart.
All disasters today and thus far this season.
Can he fix it? Will he even try? Complacency seems to start at the top with our program these days.
He could fix it, but it would require more change that I think he's willing to make:
- He needs new DC & OC. The OC needs to come from outside the Stanford family and needs to be given full playcalling authority. DC should too.
- He needs a new recruiting leader
- He needs some position coaches who will coach up nastiness
- He need to hire the next Turley
That'd be for starters. If we got one of these I'd consider it a major step forward.
Correct, winflop. In my view, Shaw has created a far too cozy family coaching culture, by promoting from within and not seeking outside talent. This is his biggest mistake. The right coaches turn 3 star players into 4 star players; and the 4-5 star players become superstars. The opposite dynamic now appears to plague us: talented players that cannot seem to pull it together. If anybody doubts this, ask yourself which coach on the current staff would be seriously targeted by another FBS program for a bigger job. Maybe Pete Alamar. Maybe. After that, no one. In the past, Harbaugh's and Shaw's lieutenants were always getting poached: Fangio, Mason, Hamilton, even Bloomgren. Ultimately, it all comes down to the coaches. As successful as Shaw has been, what will his coaching tree ultimately look like? Truly successful organizations spawn talented leaders. We have ceased to do this. And that is the ultimate cause of our downward trajectory and hits everything: recruiting, player development, game preparation, work ethic, toughness, etc. Harbaugh may have been the man who instilled "intellectual brutality" into Stanford football; but his most important accomplishment was assembling an excellent coaching staff, which has unfortunately atrophied since his departure. Until Shaw fixes this, the downward spiral will continue.
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - qwerty49 - 09-15-2019
(09-15-2019, 03:27 PM)GK3 Wrote:(09-15-2019, 02:42 PM)yvonne Wrote: I agree. This is the single biggest thing he could do to right the ship, although it won't happen until at least the off season.
The biggest example was promoting Tavita up the ranks. It's not that he's necessarily a bad position coach and someone who is passionate about Stanford, but he has limited perspective. Let him go outside, see some new philosophies, and maybe if there's an opening down the road, bring him back. It's nothing personal. It's about getting a mind trust. When people like Mason and Bloomgren leave, their positions need to be filled with people of equal caliber.
I believe our problem is compounded by the fact that it is now HARDER to get into Stanford than it was when Harbaugh arrived. I am not at all sure the University cuts the athletic department as much slack in recruiting athletes as it used to do. Is the University willing to pay the kind of money it would take to get top notch coordinators? The figure might just be bigger than the University would be willing to pay and face the faculty and staff. The various boards are full of complaints about the people we didn't offer who had 4.0 averages, or a Wunderlich score of such and such. A 4.0 average is rather meaningless in terms of getting accepted, there is so much more that needs to be part of the package.
I am not at all sure that it is all that important to the current administration that we do well in the revenue sports any longer. There a lot of moving pieces involved in this issue and they all probably contribute to the current situation.
Excellent points GK3. As a corollary I think there was a small bump on admissions class size a while back. Perhaps someone here can enlighten us. IMHO class size could increase to 2000-2100 without compromising any standards.
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - oldalum - 09-15-2019
(09-15-2019, 03:27 PM)GK3 Wrote: I believe our problem is compounded by the fact that it is now HARDER to get into Stanford than it was when Harbaugh arrived. I am not at all sure the University cuts the athletic department as much slack in recruiting athletes as it used to do.It is harder to get admitted as a non-athlete ordinary student, but I don't think we know or can know whether it's harder for recruited athletes to get in.
I wonder if our pool of potential recruits is getting smaller because kids who have the academic potential to go to Stanford are increasingly being steered away from football by their parents.
Totally agree with coaching family inbreeding being bad. What innovations have we seen in the past few years on offense or defense?
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - drnoodleman - 09-15-2019
(09-15-2019, 02:20 PM)Austroturf Wrote:I too agee that Shaw has created an atmosphere of family rather than going after a new breed of coaching style. And that maybe ,Duane and Pete might be reached out to by other programs, but really, he is not recruiting the Harbaugh type guy and the toughness is gone. Passion is missing and offensive creativity is missing. Tavita is not the guy to diagram X's and O's. Very sad to see this program beginning to head towards the pre-Harbaugh era. Also, if you lookout K.J. junior highlights at Santa Margarita his passes were crisp and on target. He did not sling the ball as he does now which prompts me to think he has shoulder issues. Lastly, why are freshman in other power 5 programs stepping into starting positions when it takes our QB 3 years to "master the offense"?? Very disappointing. I do not mind losing games when we play entertaining fun to watch offense...(09-14-2019, 09:39 PM)winflop Wrote:(09-14-2019, 02:31 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Recruiting.
Scheme.
Conditioning.
Injuries.
Stupid mistakes.
Complacency.
Heart.
All disasters today and thus far this season.
Can he fix it? Will he even try? Complacency seems to start at the top with our program these days.
He could fix it, but it would require more change that I think he's willing to make:
- He needs new DC & OC. The OC needs to come from outside the Stanford family and needs to be given full playcalling authority. DC should too.
- He needs a new recruiting leader
- He needs some position coaches who will coach up nastiness
- He need to hire the next Turley
That'd be for starters. If we got one of these I'd consider it a major step forward.
Correct, winflop. In my view, Shaw has created a far too cozy family coaching culture, by promoting from within and not seeking outside talent. This is his biggest mistake. The right coaches turn 3 star players into 4 star players; and the 4-5 star players become superstars. The opposite dynamic now appears to plague us: talented players that cannot seem to pull it together. If anybody doubts this, ask yourself which coach on the current staff would be seriously targeted by another FBS program for a bigger job. Maybe Pete Alamar. Maybe. After that, no one. In the past, Harbaugh's and Shaw's lieutenants were always getting poached: Fangio, Mason, Hamilton, even Bloomgren. Ultimately, it all comes down to the coaches. As successful as Shaw has been, what will his coaching tree ultimately look like? Truly successful organizations spawn talented leaders. We have ceased to do this. And that is the ultimate cause of our downward trajectory and hits everything: recruiting, player development, game preparation, work ethic, toughness, etc. Harbaugh may have been the man who instilled "intellectual brutality" into Stanford football; but his most important accomplishment was assembling an excellent coaching staff, which has unfortunately atrophied since his departure. Until Shaw fixes this, the downward spiral will continue.
RE: Can Shaw Fix This? - cardcrimson - 09-15-2019
(09-15-2019, 03:55 PM)oldalum Wrote:(09-15-2019, 03:27 PM)GK3 Wrote: I believe our problem is compounded by the fact that it is now HARDER to get into Stanford than it was when Harbaugh arrived. I am not at all sure the University cuts the athletic department as much slack in recruiting athletes as it used to do.It is harder to get admitted as a non-athlete ordinary student, but I don't think we know or can know whether it's harder for recruited athletes to get in.
I wonder if our pool of potential recruits is getting smaller because kids who have the academic potential to go to Stanford are increasingly being steered away from football by their parents.
Totally agree with coaching family inbreeding being bad. What innovations have we seen in the past few years on offense or defense?
Can't be that tough--several sailing recruits sailed right on through the admissions process. . . .