Anyone who believes... - Printable Version
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Anyone who believes... - gailtate - 11-09-2019
...that this is well-coached, well-drilled football team will believe ANYTHING. I thought we had seen the end of bad football with the exit of Buddy/Wlat. We've now entered a whole new era of it. Penalties, missed tackles, missed assignments. Poor reads by a QB who was more effective two years ago. Anemic offense. Sloppy special teams.
In a winnable game on the road. Oh-For-November is now an imminent probability. Well deserved.
RE: Anyone who believes... - teejers1 - 11-09-2019
(11-09-2019, 04:36 PM)gailtate Wrote: ...that this is well-coached, well-drilled football team will believe ANYTHING. I thought we had seen the end of bad football with the exit of Buddy/Wlat. We've now entered a whole new era of it. Penalties, missed tackles, missed assignments. Poor reads by a QB who was more effective two years ago. Anemic offense. Sloppy special teams.
In a winnable game on the road. Oh-For-November is now an imminent probability. Well deserved.
I eagerly await D4Cohn's defense of the head man.
And lex, it was good to see you "finally coming around" with your in-game comments (those threads are still a joy to read - capture the ups and downs of the games nicely).
I've said all that needs to be said about the football program under Shaw many times previously, including in these parts many moons ago.
Will save you all the boredom/tediousness of repeating it (again) here.
Will finish with the observation that this season will end many streaks (and that's not a good thing for Stanford).
lex24 - lex24 - 11-09-2019
Teejers, I don’t know what you mean by “finally coming around” I’ve been saying for a long time they need to improve their passing game and bringing somebody to do it. I just don’t want air raid type offense. Still don’t hate it simple as that. Frankly I wish that the only problem now was offensive playcalling system etc. It’s a lot worse than that. Unfortunately.
Meanwhile LSU Alabama is an unbelievable football game
(11-09-2019, 05:05 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(11-09-2019, 04:36 PM)gailtate Wrote: ...that this is well-coached, well-drilled football team will believe ANYTHING. I thought we had seen the end of bad football with the exit of Buddy/Wlat. We've now entered a whole new era of it. Penalties, missed tackles, missed assignments. Poor reads by a QB who was more effective two years ago. Anemic offense. Sloppy special teams.
In a winnable game on the road. Oh-For-November is now an imminent probability. Well deserved.
I eagerly await D4Cohn's defense of the head man.
And lex, it was good to see you "finally coming around" with your in-game comments (those threads are still a joy to read - capture the ups and downs of the games nicely).
I've said all that needs to be said about the football program under Shaw many times previously, including in these parts many moons ago.
Will save you all the boredom/tediousness of repeating it (again) here.
Will finish with the observation that this season will end many streaks (and that's not a good thing for Stanford).
RE: Anyone who believes... - d4cohn - 11-09-2019
(11-09-2019, 05:05 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(11-09-2019, 04:36 PM)gailtate Wrote: ...that this is well-coached, well-drilled football team will believe ANYTHING. I thought we had seen the end of bad football with the exit of Buddy/Wlat. We've now entered a whole new era of it. Penalties, missed tackles, missed assignments. Poor reads by a QB who was more effective two years ago. Anemic offense. Sloppy special teams.
In a winnable game on the road. Oh-For-November is now an imminent probability. Well deserved.
I eagerly await D4Cohn's defense of the head man.
Coach Shaw's body of work: 3 Pac-12 titles, 4 division titles, the winningest coach in Stanford history (who has won 77% of his games, and 75% of his Pac-12 games), all while not compromising our academic standards. If Stanford was an easy program to win and win big in football (where you have 85 scholarship players alone), why hasn't literally anyone in the history of Stanford football done what Coach Shaw has done during his tenure (and that includes Jim, who never won a Pac-12 Championship and never went to a Rose Bowl). Coach Shaw is the winningest coach at Stanford, and has stayed at Stanford when the NFL/bigger programs came calling (Jim left, Ty left, Dennis Green left etc.) As BC has said, I hope the fans that have been critical of Coach Shaw are not left ruing what we had with Coach Shaw when someone else is the HC (if anything, look to Stanford MBB for a cautionary tale).
I also don't judge the quality of an HC (particularly when someone like Coach Shaw has this resume) on one game or even one season. The season is also not over yet, so we don't know how this season will end up. If we end up missing a bowl, I think that would be a cause for concern (and I am sure, based on what we know about Coach Shaw, Coach Shaw wouldn't be feeling great either about that). But for everyone who is certain now that we are going to miss a bowl because we lost to Colorado, most people (including me) didn't see us beating UW at home until it happened.
RE: Anyone who believes... - teejers1 - 11-09-2019
(11-09-2019, 07:01 PM)d4cohn Wrote:(11-09-2019, 05:05 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(11-09-2019, 04:36 PM)gailtate Wrote: ...that this is well-coached, well-drilled football team will believe ANYTHING. I thought we had seen the end of bad football with the exit of Buddy/Wlat. We've now entered a whole new era of it. Penalties, missed tackles, missed assignments. Poor reads by a QB who was more effective two years ago. Anemic offense. Sloppy special teams.
In a winnable game on the road. Oh-For-November is now an imminent probability. Well deserved.
I eagerly await D4Cohn's defense of the head man.
Coach Shaw's body of work: 3 Pac-12 titles, 4 division titles, the winningest coach in Stanford history (who has won 77% of his games, and 75% of his Pac-12 games), all while not compromising our academic standards. If Stanford was an easy program to win and win big in football (where you have 85 scholarship players alone), why hasn't literally anyone in the history of Stanford football done what Coach Shaw has done during his tenure (and that includes Jim, who never won a Pac-12 Championship and never went to a Rose Bowl). Coach Shaw is the winningest coach at Stanford, and has stayed at Stanford when the NFL/bigger programs came calling (Jim left, Ty left, Dennis Green left etc.) As BC has said, I hope the fans that have been critical of Coach Shaw are not left ruing what we had with Coach Shaw when someone else is the HC (if anything, look to Stanford MBB for a cautionary tale).
I also don't judge the quality of an HC (particularly when someone like Coach Shaw has this resume) on one game or even one season. The season is also not over yet, so we don't know how this season will end up. If we end up missing a bowl, I think that would be a cause for concern (and I am sure, based on what we know about Coach Shaw, Coach Shaw wouldn't be feeling great either about that). But for everyone who is certain now that we are going to miss a bowl because we lost to Colorado, most people (including me) didn't see us beating UW at home until it happened.
Right on cue (and so predictable).
Hey D4Cohn, no coach in Stanford history was ever given the keys to a new Ferrari, like Shaw was. Maybe even you could have taken Stanford to multiple BCS bowls with that roster. But more than that, he inherited a program with no limits - including recruiting. The conventional wisdom that Stanford couldn't be elite was shattered by Jim Harbaugh. And Shaw has squandered it away to the point that the conventional wisdom has returned, and the football-first kids with the academic chops are again passing on Stanford.
Lastly, of course the next coach will not be as successful as Shaw - assuming he isn't the last coach (I have long believed that Shaw will be the winningest coach and the one who drives the program into the dumpster . . . which is looking more and more prophetic). That's because the program turned over to that coach will be a shell of what was turned over to Shaw. So your and BC's warnings of "be careful what you wish for" aren't really that persuasive.
RE: Anyone who believes... - winflop - 11-09-2019
Regardless of how this season ends, there must be major changes in the offensive coaching staff and in the training/weight rooms. This is at least the second total program failure on offense this season (UCLA) and the injuries over the last two seasons are way too high
RE: Anyone who believes... - MVCard - 11-09-2019
I think the Tavita experiment has got to end. Also we used to worry about our staff getting hired away, and I’d welcome a return to having a staff that’s so good, we worry about that every off-season.
Even before today’s game, we made a decision to downgrade our season tickets for next year out of the donation zone and into the cheap seats... we are finding a better sports atmosphere a few miles south at Avaya and will try that out (hey you can buy beer there!); Stanford just doesn’t seem to care about filling its stadium and the quality of football isn’t worth all the $$$.
RE: Anyone who believes... - BobK - 11-09-2019
Well actually both Christianson and Dowhauer were given the keys
RE: Anyone who believes... - d4cohn - 11-09-2019
(11-09-2019, 07:28 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Right on cue (and so predictable).
It may be predictable, but I am defending my opinion after both good games and bad. Regarding your thesis of Coach Shaw ruining what Coach Harbaugh built, this is refuted by the 2015 Rose Bowl season, as Jim didn't recruit or develop C-Mac, Bryce Love, Blake Martinez, Austin Hooper etc. from that team, and Jim didn't develop Kevin Hogan or any of the other fifth-years from that team.
After 2015, Jim also didn't recruit or develop Solomon Thomas, Harrison Philips, Eric Reid, JJAW etc. (the number of quality players that Coach Shaw and his staff have recruited, developed and put in the NFL is impressive, just as Jim's accomplishments in this department are impressive too).
You also say that Coach Shaw has had no limits in recruiting; while perhaps Coach Shaw has had more runway in recruiting players as compared to prior Stanford coaches, the idea that he has no limits in recruiting as compared to the coaches and programs you expect him to compete against in terms of level of success (Clemson, Ohio State, Alabama etc.) is not true. And if this is not the level of success/programs you are comparing Coach Shaw to, then how is 7 seasons with 9 or more wins (including 4 straight years from 2015-2018 without Harbaugh recruits) driving the program into the dumpster.
College football is a cyclical game; programs don't stay at the very top of the sport forever (so yes, even Alabama will decline at some point).
I actually agree with Winflop regarding the training/weight rooms. We have to get a lot better there than we have been in the last two years.
RE: Anyone who believes... - martyup - 11-09-2019
(11-09-2019, 07:28 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(11-09-2019, 07:01 PM)d4cohn Wrote:(11-09-2019, 05:05 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(11-09-2019, 04:36 PM)gailtate Wrote: ...that this is well-coached, well-drilled football team will believe ANYTHING. I thought we had seen the end of bad football with the exit of Buddy/Wlat. We've now entered a whole new era of it. Penalties, missed tackles, missed assignments. Poor reads by a QB who was more effective two years ago. Anemic offense. Sloppy special teams.
In a winnable game on the road. Oh-For-November is now an imminent probability. Well deserved.
I eagerly await D4Cohn's defense of the head man.
Coach Shaw's body of work: 3 Pac-12 titles, 4 division titles, the winningest coach in Stanford history (who has won 77% of his games, and 75% of his Pac-12 games), all while not compromising our academic standards. If Stanford was an easy program to win and win big in football (where you have 85 scholarship players alone), why hasn't literally anyone in the history of Stanford football done what Coach Shaw has done during his tenure (and that includes Jim, who never won a Pac-12 Championship and never went to a Rose Bowl). Coach Shaw is the winningest coach at Stanford, and has stayed at Stanford when the NFL/bigger programs came calling (Jim left, Ty left, Dennis Green left etc.) As BC has said, I hope the fans that have been critical of Coach Shaw are not left ruing what we had with Coach Shaw when someone else is the HC (if anything, look to Stanford MBB for a cautionary tale).
I also don't judge the quality of an HC (particularly when someone like Coach Shaw has this resume) on one game or even one season. The season is also not over yet, so we don't know how this season will end up. If we end up missing a bowl, I think that would be a cause for concern (and I am sure, based on what we know about Coach Shaw, Coach Shaw wouldn't be feeling great either about that). But for everyone who is certain now that we are going to miss a bowl because we lost to Colorado, most people (including me) didn't see us beating UW at home until it happened.
Right on cue (and so predictable).
Hey D4Cohn, no coach in Stanford history was ever given the keys to a new Ferrari, like Shaw was. Maybe even you could have taken Stanford to multiple BCS bowls with that roster. But more than that, he inherited a program with no limits - including recruiting. The conventional wisdom that Stanford couldn't be elite was shattered by Jim Harbaugh. And Shaw has squandered it away to the point that the conventional wisdom has returned, and the football-first kids with the academic chops are again passing on Stanford.
Lastly, of course the next coach will not be as successful as Shaw - assuming he isn't the last coach (I have long believed that Shaw will be the winningest coach and the one who drives the program into the dumpster . . . which is looking more and more prophetic). That's because the program turned over to that coach will be a shell of what was turned over to Shaw. So your and BC's warnings of "be careful what you wish for" aren't really that persuasive.
![[Image: ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia...f=1&nofb=1]](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2F3ornkbEo4MuwPYcISY%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1)
RE: Anyone who believes... - VFRing98 - 11-09-2019
I don’t really expect Stanford to compete with Ohio St, Clemson, etc.
Be nice if we could beat Colorado, though.
Did Shaw really say that about the kicking game? If he could win a football game by a fraction of a point, he would.
Hey David, just score some more freaking touchdowns. If you can’t do it, hire someone who can, Mr. $4.6M man.
RE: Anyone who believes... - Brickcity - 11-09-2019
(11-09-2019, 09:30 PM)VFRing98 Wrote: I don’t really expect Stanford to compete with Ohio St, Clemson, etc.
Be nice if we could beat Colorado, though.
Did Shaw really say that about the kicking game? If he could win a football game by a fraction of a point, he would.
Hey David, just score some more freaking touchdowns. If you can’t do it, hire someone who can, Mr. $4.6M man.
"Hey David, just score some more freaking touchdowns. If you can’t do it, hire someone who can, Mr. $4.6M man."
WORD.
RE: Anyone who believes... - doubledub - 11-09-2019
Anyone who joined the team within 3 to 4 years after Harbaugh's departure was recruited by Harbaugh given that we start when people are freshmen or sophomores. Sure, Shaw and his staff closed the deal on them, but it really was Harbaugh's guys who were winning the games when those recruits were watching and believed they were jumping on a program that was continuing to rise.
I agree Shaw has done a lot for the program in the past few years but what is the program's trajectory now? What do we tell recruits about the outbreak of injuries?
And quite frankly, I do not care about 8 amd 9 win seasons because I have no interest in going to mediocre bowls year after year. I prefer boom and bust because at least there is a boom.
Shaw as a person does not inspire fans. Maybe his record does but my few interactions with him show him to be a very disagreeable person. Folks who used to be in the program say the same thing.
What do his former players say about him? What do they credit him with? Or do they talk about the Stanford experience as a whole?
We don't get back to a boom without some dramatic changes. We don't absolutely need a change in leadership, but we definitely need a change in the kind of leadership. Can Shaw look in the mirror and recognize that like other CEOs struggling?
Look at how many risks Saban has taken with his offense, including try coordinators who might not be like him and putting in a true freshman at QB in the national championship game. Can you imagine Shaw doing anything like that?
Bottom line, I don"t care if this is the greatest era of Stanford football, I don't get how folks think mediocre is ok because we were above average last year or the year before. It blows my mind that that folks associated with Stanford, many of us Type As who accept nothing less than the best in the rest of our lives, lower our standards and expectations for David Shaw. Losing 8 games and losing 4 games feels the same to me.
RE: Anyone who believes... - Brickcity - 11-09-2019
(11-09-2019, 09:53 PM)doubledub Wrote: Anyone who joined the team within 3 to 4 years after Harbaugh's departure was recruited by Harbaugh given that we start when people are freshmen or sophomores. Sure, Shaw and his staff closed the deal on them, but it really was Harbaugh's guys who were winning the games when those recruits were watching and believed they were jumping on a program that was continuing to rise.
I agree Shaw has done a lot for the program in the past few years but what is the program's trajectory now? What do we tell recruits about the outbreak of injuries?
And quite frankly, I do not care about 8 amd 9 win seasons because I have no interest in going to mediocre bowls year after year. I prefer boom and bust because at least there is a boom.
Shaw as a person does not inspire fans. Maybe his record does but my few interactions with him show him to be a very disagreeable person. Folks who used to be in the program say the same thing.
What do his former players say about him? What do they credit him with? Or do they talk about the Stanford experience as a whole?
We don't get back to a boom without some dramatic changes. We don't absolutely need a change in leadership, but we definitely need a change in the kind of leadership. Can Shaw look in the mirror and recognize that like other CEOs struggling?
Look at how many risks Saban has taken with his offense, including try coordinators who might not be like him and putting in a true freshman at QB in the national championship game. Can you imagine Shaw doing anything like that?
Bottom line, I don"t care if this is the greatest era of Stanford football, I don't get how folks think mediocre is ok because we were above average last year or the year before. It blows my mind that that folks associated with Stanford, many of us Type As who accept nothing less than the best in the rest of our lives, lower our standards and expectations for David Shaw. Losing 8 games and losing 4 games feels the same to me.
As I mentioned in another thread, Shaw hasn't shown an ability to self-reflect and admit his weaknesses. Of course, doing so is, overall, actually a strength because the head coach can hire people to make the weakness a strength.
RE: Anyone who believes... - CowboyIndian - 11-09-2019
(11-09-2019, 07:28 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Right on cue (and so predictable).
Apparently, irony is dead.
RE: Anyone who believes... - PAsportsfan - 11-10-2019
"Apparently, irony is dead."
Right on cue and so predictable.
RE: Anyone who believes... - slide - 11-10-2019
(11-10-2019, 12:48 AM)PAsportsfan Wrote: "Apparently, irony is dead."
is irony buried atop of Stanford offensive innovation?
RE: Anyone who believes... - gailtate - 11-10-2019
(11-09-2019, 08:24 PM)BobK Wrote: Well actually both Christianson and Dowhauer were given the keys
Not a good comparison, and it was a dramatically different football world in the 1970s. What's more, neither Christiansen nor Dowhower inherited the depth, system and recruiting momentum that was bequeathed by JH to DS after the Orange Bowl in 2011. Dowhower, after one season, realized that he hated the head-coaching job at Stanford and resigned. He should have avoided it elsewhere, too. In the mid '80s at Vanderbilt he was fired after a two-year stint an a 10-23-1 record. In the 90s, as HC of Colts in the NFL, he departed after two years and a record of 5-24. Chris was never a HC again.
Point is, Shaw was astute enough to effectively exploit the Harbaugh momentum, but even then he was revealing the flaws that would doom him later, finding ways to lose eminently winnable games in the 2012 Fiesta Bowl and 2014 Rose Bowls for example, and steadily allowing his coaching staff to erode and recruiting to slip significantly. The deeper problem I see, however, is a temperament/personality issue. He seems to want to be the smartest guy in the room all the time and is uncomfortable "hiring up" and encouraging creative conflict. I say his best days are behind him if he cannot grow out of his self-made straight-jacket. Guy needs an intervention.
RE: Anyone who believes... - JohnR34231 - 11-10-2019
(11-10-2019, 08:30 AM)gailtate Wrote:(11-09-2019, 08:24 PM)BobK Wrote: Well actually both Christianson and Dowhauer were given the keys
Not a good comparison, and it was a dramatically different football world in the 1970s. What's more, neither Christiansen nor Dowhower inherited the depth, system and recruiting momentum that was bequeathed by JH to DS after the Orange Bowl in 2011. Dowhower, after one season, realized that he hated the head-coaching job at Stanford and resigned. He should have avoided it elsewhere, too. In the mid '80s at Vanderbilt he was fired after a two-year stint an a 10-23-1 record. In the 90s, as HC of Colts in the NFL, he departed after two years and a record of 5-24. Chris was never a HC again.
Point is, Shaw was astute enough to effectively exploit the Harbaugh momentum, but even then he was revealing the flaws that would doom him later, finding ways to lose eminently winnable games in the 2012 Fiesta Bowl and 2014 Rose Bowls for example, and steadily allowing his coaching staff to erode and recruiting to slip significantly. The deeper problem I see, however, is a temperament/personality issue. He seems to want to be the smartest guy in the room all the time and is uncomfortable "hiring up" and encouraging creative conflict. I say his best days are behind him if he cannot grow out of his self-made straight-jacket. Guy needs an intervention.
So even though be took us to four major bowl games in his first five years, you could see his flaws because he lost two of them.
Tough crowd here.
RE: Anyone who believes... - CowboyIndian - 11-10-2019
(11-10-2019, 07:04 AM)slide Wrote: is irony buried atop of Stanford offensive innovation?
Yep...and just below several years of the same guys with the same posts saying the same thing. We get it.