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This could have been prevented - Printable Version

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This could have been prevented - OutsiderFan - 03-26-2020

The United States was probably one of the top 2-3 most prepared countries to deal with a pandemic. There was a 60+ page pandemic response manual prepared for the White House. When the transition from 44 to 45 happened, someone who was since fired or otherwise removed from a position of influence to use it, was really happy to have and appreciated the guidance because he planned to have the new administration use it if ever faced with the need, so he thought.

IOW, the White House had an instruction manual to follow - probably few countries had - but never took it out of the proverbial drawer and totally pissed away the first mover advantage the U.S. had. Who the hell knows why the manual was ignored, but anyone who thinks the White House hasn't failed spectacularly really needs to read this:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/25/trump-coronavirus-national-security-council-149285 

No, the virus couldn't have been completely stopped, but had recommendations that were available and produced by people who knew WTF they were doing actually been followed, which includes responding quickly and in a coordinated fashion, we wouldn't be facing the catastraf*ck on the scale we are now.  

Highlighting failures and blaming people are two sides of the same coin. This post isn't an effort to blame anyone as much as it is to highlight the value of having the best people in charge, and the importance of holding those who screw up accountable. Because without accountability, there will be nothing but more disaster ahead.


RE: This could have been prevented - JustAnotherFan - 03-26-2020

(03-26-2020, 05:43 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  The United States was probably one of the top 2-3 most prepared countries to deal with a pandemic. There was a 60+ page pandemic response manual prepared for the White House. When the transition from 44 to 45 happened, someone who was since fired or otherwise removed from a position of influence to use it, was really happy to have and appreciated the guidance because he planned to have the new administration use it if ever faced with the need, so he thought.

IOW, the White House had an instruction manual to follow - probably few countries had - but never took it out of the proverbial drawer and totally pissed away the first mover advantage the U.S. had. Who the hell knows why the manual was ignored, but anyone who thinks the White House hasn't failed spectacularly really needs to read this:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/25/trump-coronavirus-national-security-council-149285 

No, the virus couldn't have been completely stopped, but had recommendations that were available and produced by people who knew WTF they were doing actually been followed, which includes responding quickly and in a coordinated fashion, we wouldn't be facing the catastraf*ck on the scale we are now.  

Highlighting failures and blaming people are two sides of the same coin. This post isn't an effort to blame anyone as much as it is to highlight the value of having the best people in charge, and the importance of holding those who screw up accountable. Because without accountability, there will be nothing but more disaster ahead.

Super depressing. But how exactly would these folks be held accountable? It's not like they stole bread from a convenience store and are going to get run through the criminal justice system. They are not going to be sued in their personal capacities. We live in a society where the richer or more powerful you are the less and less the consequences, even of virtual genocidal incompetence.


RE: This could have been prevented - oldalum - 03-26-2020

The Trump's administration's failure to learn the institutional knowledge of the preceding administration is a systemic failure that is chronicled in Michael Lewis' book "The Fifth Risk," which I highly recommend if you haven't read it (unless you can't take in more depressing stuff at the present moment). The consequences of that failure are being felt in ways large and small. Some low-probability but major risk was bound to crop up, such as failing to prevent radioactive material from being acquired by terrorists, or failing to take advantage of what little preparations we had made for a pandemic.


RE: This could have been prevented - OutsiderFan - 03-26-2020

All we can do is inform people of what has happened and who was in charge when things were going well and who when things weren't.

If our team had a QB who threw 2x more INTs to TD passes, all fans would be calling for that QB to be benched. This is why transparency in government is so essentially important. We absolutely must know what is going on "behind closed doors" because if we don't, we have no way of knowing who is the WH version or versions of this QB that if we could see performing, we would all universally want benched.

The POTUS may be driving the decisions, but for all we know, he may be getting horrible advice from people with their own evil agendas. Absent that transparency we can't possibly know, but publishing articles like POLITICO did, that point to this manual and failures around it, the questions can start being asked and answers demanded.


RE: This could have been prevented - oldalum - 03-26-2020

(03-26-2020, 07:09 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  The POTUS may be driving the decisions, but for all we know, he may be getting horrible advice from people with their own evil agendas. 

And who appointed those people, or decided to listen to them? In my view, the POTUS--whoever it is, Republican or Democrat--is ultimately responsible for their administration, directly or indirectly. Indirectly can be harder to trace but is just as important: who you appoint to politically appointed positions (they are the leadership positions), their competence, the overall philosophy they reflect, etc. Again, read The Fifth Risk!


RE: This could have been prevented - cardcrimson - 03-26-2020

(03-26-2020, 05:43 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  The United States was probably one of the top 2-3 most prepared countries to deal with a pandemic. There was a 60+ page pandemic response manual prepared for the White House. When the transition from 44 to 45 happened, someone who was since fired or otherwise removed from a position of influence to use it, was really happy to have and appreciated the guidance because he planned to have the new administration use it if ever faced with the need, so he thought.

IOW, the White House had an instruction manual to follow - probably few countries had - but never took it out of the proverbial drawer and totally pissed away the first mover advantage the U.S. had. Who the hell knows why the manual was ignored, but anyone who thinks the White House hasn't failed spectacularly really needs to read this:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/25/trump-coronavirus-national-security-council-149285 

No, the virus couldn't have been completely stopped, but had recommendations that were available and produced by people who knew WTF they were doing actually been followed, which includes responding quickly and in a coordinated fashion, we wouldn't be facing the catastraf*ck on the scale we are now.  

Highlighting failures and blaming people are two sides of the same coin. This post isn't an effort to blame anyone as much as it is to highlight the value of having the best people in charge, and the importance of holding those who screw up accountable. Because without accountability, there will be nothing but more disaster ahead.

Hindsight is always 20/20. Perhaps if our government, including the House Intelligence committee that is suppose to oversee threats to our country, hadn't been laser focused on a two bit phone call during December and January, we could have avoided this whole thing. The alleged best in our country were looking at the Ukraine when they should have been looking at China.


RE: This could have been prevented - burger - 03-26-2020

(03-26-2020, 07:20 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:  
(03-26-2020, 05:43 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  The United States was probably one of the top 2-3 most prepared countries to deal with a pandemic. There was a 60+ page pandemic response manual prepared for the White House. When the transition from 44 to 45 happened, someone who was since fired or otherwise removed from a position of influence to use it, was really happy to have and appreciated the guidance because he planned to have the new administration use it if ever faced with the need, so he thought.

IOW, the White House had an instruction manual to follow - probably few countries had - but never took it out of the proverbial drawer and totally pissed away the first mover advantage the U.S. had. Who the hell knows why the manual was ignored, but anyone who thinks the White House hasn't failed spectacularly really needs to read this:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/25/trump-coronavirus-national-security-council-149285 

No, the virus couldn't have been completely stopped, but had recommendations that were available and produced by people who knew WTF they were doing actually been followed, which includes responding quickly and in a coordinated fashion, we wouldn't be facing the catastraf*ck on the scale we are now.  

Highlighting failures and blaming people are two sides of the same coin. This post isn't an effort to blame anyone as much as it is to highlight the value of having the best people in charge, and the importance of holding those who screw up accountable. Because without accountability, there will be nothing but more disaster ahead.

Hindsight is always 20/20. Perhaps if our government, including the House Intelligence committee that is suppose to oversee threats to our country, hadn't been laser focused on a two bit phone call during December and January, we could have avoided this whole thing. The alleged best in our country were looking at the Ukraine when they should have been looking at China.

Cardcrimson, almost every single one of your posts since this started has been a tendentious defense of the administration.  The House  Intelligence committee is not responsible for implementing pandemic response, nor does it hire/fire staff (see this article for more on that failing: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/26/us/politics/coronavirus-expertise-trump.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage).  You may be surprised to learn that government can do more than one thing at the same time.  If Trump hadn't fired the top pandemic response people in NSC/CDC, they could have been working on...wait for it...pandemic response, even if Trump himself was working 24/7 on impeachment responses (he wasn't--see: golf every weekend).  

And it's not hindsight.  The failures of response (like not implementing the defense production act to make more ventilators or PPE and not ramping up testing and contact tracing, as basically every expert is begging for) are ongoing every day. 

So please stop with the reflexive defenses of Trump and obfuscation (like "the real problem was impeachment.").  People are dying by the thousands, and the best you can do is "It's partly the democrats' fault."  Useless.


RE: This could have been prevented - cardcrimson - 03-26-2020

(03-26-2020, 07:34 AM)burger Wrote:  
(03-26-2020, 07:20 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:  
(03-26-2020, 05:43 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  The United States was probably one of the top 2-3 most prepared countries to deal with a pandemic. There was a 60+ page pandemic response manual prepared for the White House. When the transition from 44 to 45 happened, someone who was since fired or otherwise removed from a position of influence to use it, was really happy to have and appreciated the guidance because he planned to have the new administration use it if ever faced with the need, so he thought.

IOW, the White House had an instruction manual to follow - probably few countries had - but never took it out of the proverbial drawer and totally pissed away the first mover advantage the U.S. had. Who the hell knows why the manual was ignored, but anyone who thinks the White House hasn't failed spectacularly really needs to read this:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/25/trump-coronavirus-national-security-council-149285 

No, the virus couldn't have been completely stopped, but had recommendations that were available and produced by people who knew WTF they were doing actually been followed, which includes responding quickly and in a coordinated fashion, we wouldn't be facing the catastraf*ck on the scale we are now.  

Highlighting failures and blaming people are two sides of the same coin. This post isn't an effort to blame anyone as much as it is to highlight the value of having the best people in charge, and the importance of holding those who screw up accountable. Because without accountability, there will be nothing but more disaster ahead.

Hindsight is always 20/20. Perhaps if our government, including the House Intelligence committee that is suppose to oversee threats to our country, hadn't been laser focused on a two bit phone call during December and January, we could have avoided this whole thing. The alleged best in our country were looking at the Ukraine when they should have been looking at China.

Cardcrimson, almost every single one of your posts since this started has been a tendentious defense of the administration.  The House  Intelligence committee is not responsible for implementing pandemic response, nor does it hire/fire staff (see this article for more on that failing: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/26/us/politics/coronavirus-expertise-trump.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage).  You may be surprised to learn that government can do more than one thing at the same time.  If Trump hadn't fired the top pandemic response people in NSC/CDC, they could have been working on...wait for it...pandemic response, even if Trump himself was working 24/7 on impeachment responses (he wasn't--see: golf every weekend).  

And it's not hindsight.  The failures of response (like not implementing the defense production act to make more ventilators or PPE and not ramping up testing and contact tracing, as basically every expert is begging for) are ongoing every day. 

So please stop with the reflexive defenses of Trump and obfuscation (like "the real problem was impeachment.").  People are dying by the thousands, and the best you can do is "It's partly the democrats' fault."  Useless.

It's a two sided coin, isn't it. All your side seems to do is to blame Trump for everything. That's useless. Someone fires someone in China last summer. Trump's fault. Bolton reorganizes and eliminates one position to allegedly streamline response, Trump's fault. Some guy in Arizona takes a marine fish remedy and dies, Trump's fault. 

So please, stop with the constant automatic criticisms of Trump and the administration. People are dying by the thousands and we as a country need to resolve it. By the way, 60% of Americans approve of Trump's handling of the crisis so far. If the Cardboard were a measure, it be 99% think he should be tried for mass murder.


RE: This could have been prevented - Farm93 - 03-26-2020

(03-26-2020, 05:43 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  The United States was probably one of the top 2-3 most prepared countries to deal with a pandemic. There was a 60+ page pandemic response manual prepared for the White House. When the transition from 44 to 45 happened, someone who was since fired or otherwise removed from a position of influence to use it, was really happy to have and appreciated the guidance because he planned to have the new administration use it if ever faced with the need, so he thought.

IOW, the White House had an instruction manual to follow - probably few countries had - but never took it out of the proverbial drawer and totally pissed away the first mover advantage the U.S. had. Who the hell knows why the manual was ignored, but anyone who thinks the White House hasn't failed spectacularly really needs to read this:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/25/trump-coronavirus-national-security-council-149285 

No, the virus couldn't have been completely stopped, but had recommendations that were available and produced by people who knew WTF they were doing actually been followed, which includes responding quickly and in a coordinated fashion, we wouldn't be facing the catastraf*ck on the scale we are now.  

Highlighting failures and blaming people are two sides of the same coin. This post isn't an effort to blame anyone as much as it is to highlight the value of having the best people in charge, and the importance of holding those who screw up accountable. Because without accountability, there will be nothing but more disaster ahead.

This is why a few senators, especially the two GOP senators, sold stock when they heard the pandemic was becoming global.   They knew, more than the rest of us, how little of our traditional global pandemic playbook would likely be applied by 45 and his "team".

It is what it is.  We can all hold out hope that April and May warmth will slow the virus down.

The UN and fellow NATO leaders laughed at POTUS-45 in the past.   I doubt they will laugh at him the next time they see him.   Anger and pity maybe, but hard to laugh at someone that clearly failed at his #1 task, doing everything he could to keep his citizens healthy and safe.


RE: This could have been prevented - OutsiderFan - 03-26-2020

(03-26-2020, 07:20 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:  
(03-26-2020, 05:43 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  The United States was probably one of the top 2-3 most prepared countries to deal with a pandemic. There was a 60+ page pandemic response manual prepared for the White House. When the transition from 44 to 45 happened, someone who was since fired or otherwise removed from a position of influence to use it, was really happy to have and appreciated the guidance because he planned to have the new administration use it if ever faced with the need, so he thought.

IOW, the White House had an instruction manual to follow - probably few countries had - but never took it out of the proverbial drawer and totally pissed away the first mover advantage the U.S. had. Who the hell knows why the manual was ignored, but anyone who thinks the White House hasn't failed spectacularly really needs to read this:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/25/trump-coronavirus-national-security-council-149285 

No, the virus couldn't have been completely stopped, but had recommendations that were available and produced by people who knew WTF they were doing actually been followed, which includes responding quickly and in a coordinated fashion, we wouldn't be facing the catastraf*ck on the scale we are now.  

Highlighting failures and blaming people are two sides of the same coin. This post isn't an effort to blame anyone as much as it is to highlight the value of having the best people in charge, and the importance of holding those who screw up accountable. Because without accountability, there will be nothing but more disaster ahead.

Hindsight is always 20/20. Perhaps if our government, including the House Intelligence committee that is suppose to oversee threats to our country, hadn't been laser focused on a two bit phone call during December and January, we could have avoided this whole thing. The alleged best in our country were looking at the Ukraine when they should have been looking at China.

My grandfather once told me, if you can't improve on the silence, say nothing.  I'll amend to say if your defense is this weak, don't bother saying anything.  Blaming those who aren't responsible, in a desperate attempt to shield those who are, is just embarrassing.

I know for certain the PDB would have had lots of information about the coming pandemic, since early January at least. Someone or someones are responsible for not following the "Pandemic for Dummies" that was available to the White HouseI don't know who specifically, but we best find out for certain, so we can "see the QB throwing those picks" and everyone can agree he needs to be benched, or we will be seeing similar screw-ups continue, not just with pandemic management, but other areas as well.

Don't lose track of the fact there could be a war developing between Iran and the U.S. Wouldn't it be great if during a pandemic, we end up in a kinetic war, with National Guard being called to fight in Iran, when states need them to help with pandemic. We could have the same QB/QBs managing such a war as are leading pandemic response. Maybe the Defense Production Act is being held for this eventuality? We don't know, and this isn't that far fetched. It can easily happen if we don't identify exactly the QB or QBs who must be benched.

Straw man arguments don't help at a time like this. Only facts matter.


RE: This could have been prevented - burger - 03-26-2020

(03-26-2020, 07:56 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:  It's a two sided coin, isn't it.
Actually, there is no reason why blame has to be divided between both parties.  That's specious reasoning.

And if you need someone else needs blame, how about Mitch McConnell.  He's running home for a freaking MONTH, and there will be no way to pass needed legislation in that time.  How about a bill to expand the PHS or CDC staff to start implementing contact tracing and testing?  That would potentially add thousands of needed jobs and, like in South Korea, save a lot of lives.  How about funneling even more money to desperate state and local health departments?  How about loosening visas (currently frozen I think) for foreign medical workers who want to come to the US for work?  That's what I came up with in about 30 seconds of thinking about it--I know there's even more to be done.


RE: This could have been prevented - magnus - 03-26-2020

A well written piece on the covid-19 response and how it might end. (Though there are some jabs at the current administration)

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/03/how-will-coronavirus-end/608719/
(Paywall maybe but first few free)

It points out the single most unpredicted issue with our response was a failure to get out a working test quickly.   None of our prediction models had that factored in as a point of failure.


RE: This could have been prevented - 2006alum - 03-26-2020

Thanks for this thread - those were really informative explanations of what went wrong, when, how, and why. My fear at this point is that until we have an antibody test, confirmation that the virus can't mutate quickly and render said antibodies meaningless, and a widely available vaccine, we will be stuck in some cycle of this new normal for the duration. 

This Administration does not seem to think testing is critical, and it has become abundantly clear to me that we have neither the infrastructure in place to do testing, contact tracing, and isolation the way countries like South Korea and Taiwan have been able to do to minimize the social and economic costs of the virus. Nor does there seem to be the will among the politicos to implement such a process at the nationwide level. And it has to be national: even if the Santa Clara Health Commissioner were the world's finest, he or she can't isolate cases coming from outside Santa Clara all on her own. 

This has to be nationally coordinated, and we need to accept that it will not be nationally coordinated. Instead, people will die, and those of us lucky not to be among them will live in fear until we get vaccinated or are confronted with the russian roulette of being infected. It's just so damn depressing. And maybe the only sliver of hope is treatments like antibody plasma transfer and hydrochloroquine, if it by chance seems to help. But even then, the only individuals treated with those therapies thus far are ones admitted to the hospital, which means much of the social cost of the virus to that individual will already have been wrought.

(03-26-2020, 07:56 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:  So please, stop with the constant automatic criticisms of Trump and the administration. People are dying by the thousands and we as a country need to resolve it. By the way, 60% of Americans approve of Trump's handling of the crisis so far. If the Cardboard were a measure, it be 99% think he should be tried for mass murder.

At a certain point, it may become prudent to "read the room." Perhaps you'd find more satisfaction sharing your views among those 60% likeminded folks than here among those of us who think otherwise.


RE: This could have been prevented - cardcrimson - 03-26-2020

(03-26-2020, 09:00 AM)2006alum Wrote:  At a certain point, it may become prudent to "read the room." Perhaps you'd find more satisfaction sharing your views among those 60% likeminded folks than here among those of us who think otherwise.

Fine. Enjoy your echo chamber.


RE: This could have been prevented - burger - 03-26-2020

(03-26-2020, 09:00 AM)2006alum Wrote:  Thanks for this thread - those were really informative explanations of what went wrong, when, how, and why. My fear at this point is that until we have an antibody test, confirmation that the virus can't mutate quickly and render said antibodies meaningless, and a widely available vaccine, we will be stuck in some cycle of this new normal for the duration. 

Hardly confirmed yet, but some scientists are saying that the mutation rate is slower than the flu, making a single vaccine potentially effective.

https://www.businessinsider.com/new-coronavirus-mutates-slowly-vaccine-could-be-long-lasting-2020-3

I think that article links to a WaPo article with more details.


RE: This could have been prevented - JustAnotherFan - 03-26-2020

(03-26-2020, 07:56 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:  So please, stop with the constant automatic criticisms of Trump and the administration. People are dying by the thousands and we as a country need to resolve it. By the way, 60% of Americans approve of Trump's handling of the crisis so far. If the Cardboard were a measure, it be 99% think he should be tried for mass murder.

Do you believe Stanford grads tend to be more thoughtful, more intelligent, more critical, and more ethical than the general public?

Or do you think they're all just a bunch of liberal lefties who don't recognize how Trump has made America great again?


RE: This could have been prevented - BostonCard - 03-26-2020

Immunity to other coronaviruses (the ones that cause a common cold) lasts for about a year, unfortunately.  It isn't because the virus mutates, but rather because immunity to different viruses wanes at different rates (for example, immunity to chicken pox lasts a lifetime).

BC


RE: This could have been prevented - Goose - 03-26-2020

(03-26-2020, 08:47 AM)magnus Wrote:  A well written piece on the covid-19 response and how it might end. (Though there are some jabs at the current administration)

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/03/how-will-coronavirus-end/608719/
(Paywall maybe but first few free)

It points out the single most unpredicted issue with our response was a failure to get out a working test quickly.   None of our prediction models had that factored in as a point of failure.
Unfortunately, I think this article points out what is wrong with the entire thesis of this thread. Some of the experts quoted in the article state that they never planned for not having a test available. By the thesis of this thread, they are therefore clearly all incompetent because they failed to anticipate and plan for something that actually happened. However, I think it is quite clear to anyone examining the situation worldwide that having the test did not stop the spread of the disease. Italy had the test (the Berlin test probably, I still don't know for sure). That wasn't enough. Clearly, having the test in place sooner would have helped. Having a functioning contact tracing capability would have helped even more, because one can do that even without having a reliable test. Even at this late date, I see no evidence we can do this.

The article quotes several experts saying that they never thought the US would execute the pandemic response so poorly. Anybody who has ever been involved in a large scale activity that has not been rehearsed over and over can tell you that things will not work as expected. Supplies and materials that are supposed to be available will be late or not there at all. Groups and functions that need to be ready to go into action at time T won't. Even plans that have been rehearsed will discover new problems unique to that particular instance, sometimes blocking the execution of critical actions. The guy with the keys to the truck doesn't show up because his car won't start.

This also assumes a plan that is actually any good. Essentially all plans that haven't been tried out aren't. Worse still, many plans made by government institutions rely on individuals or small committees making prompt, correct decisions. Many of the individuals involved have no experience in this kind of decision making. They want certainty, which they won't get. Taking action has costs, which are somewhat unknown. Not taking action also has costs, which are probably even more unknown. If these individuals are politicians, it can be even worse, as the political cost is added to the actual situational uncertainties. The idea that such a system will respond quickly and correctly (whatever that means at the time, not post facto), no matter who is running it, is very much wishful thinking. We are, I think, very fortunate that the Bay Area counties took what action they did when they did. I also think that Newsom responded pretty well. His path was very much eased by the example of the Bay Area counties I believe. It gave him lots of political cover. That said, we could also excoriate these same people for not acting sooner. The beauty of that is that since it is conter-factual speculation, we can assume any outcome of such action that we wish.


RE: This could have been prevented - 2006alum - 03-26-2020

(03-26-2020, 10:07 AM)BostonCard Wrote:  Immunity to other coronaviruses (the ones that cause a common cold) lasts for about a year, unfortunately.  It isn't because the virus mutates, but rather because immunity to different viruses wanes at different rates (for example, immunity to chicken pox lasts a lifetime).

BC

Yikes. BC, if that's so, then does that suggest a vaccine isn't actually a panacea after all, and we will now need to live with annual COVID-19 resurgences the way we live with resurgences of the flu and common colds? Given how much more dire the case outcomes are, that's terrifying if so.


RE: This could have been prevented - martyup - 03-26-2020

(03-26-2020, 09:11 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:  
(03-26-2020, 09:00 AM)2006alum Wrote:  At a certain point, it may become prudent to "read the room." Perhaps you'd find more satisfaction sharing your views among those 60% likeminded folks than here among those of us who think otherwise.

Fine. Enjoy your echo chamber.

Great.  That is called tyranny of the majority 2006alum.  If someone doesn't agree with "the majority" they should not post here?  You have asked a member to leave this board because they don't agree with you.  BTW, how do you arrive at your 60% figure? Counting the loudest voices?  You are a mod on this board.  Shameful.  This is a time when we should all be pulling together, helping, and comforting each other.  

I would say to all Cardboard members that there are plenty of forums for you to lay waste to the Trump administration, or the Chinese, or Russia, or republicans, or democrats, etc.  But the Cardboard should not be the forum for such rhetoric.  The admin and mods have chosen to suspend enforcement against political posts on the Covid-19 forum because of the difficulty to discern politics with this crisis and because people are understandable anxious about the pandemic.  But when a mod becomes one of the loudest voices in political posts and seeks to drive from the Cardboard a member who clearly comes from the opposite side of the political fence, this has gone too far.  There is valuable potentially lifesaving information being shared on this board, but the aggressive politically provocative posts being made by a handful of members will likely get this forum shut down.