Looting in Italy, are we next?

Looting in Italy, are we next? - Printable Version

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Looting in Italy, are we next? - Mick - 03-30-2020

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/italy-risks-losing-grip-in-south-with-fears-of-looting-and-riots/ar-BB11V5A1

I'm genuinely curious. If looting and rioting can happen in a pacifist country of old people with no firearms, what is likely to happen in a country of 300+ million guns and, shall we say, no lack of self-confidence/

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - 2006alum - 03-30-2020

(03-30-2020, 03:53 PM)Mick Wrote: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/italy-risks-losing-grip-in-south-with-fears-of-looting-and-riots/ar-BB11V5A1

I'm genuinely curious. If looting and rioting can happen in a pacifist country of old people with no firearms, what is likely to happen in a country of 300+ million guns and, shall we say, no lack of self-confidence/

Oh Mick. I take it you've never been to Naples or farther afield? Let's just say neither law nor order is especially evident in major cities south of Rome. I once had to connect from the airport to the train station in Naples and was almost certainly going to miss the train because of how bad the rush hour traffic was. But my intrepid taxi driver took several one way streets the wrong way, and I arrived with minutes to spare. A bit harrowing, but I was more than grateful, and tipped extra. He said it was the standard course in a pinch.

And it's not a surprise they're concerned about the places where the mafia still have a widespread presence, because shaking down local stores can happen in the best of times. There are a lot of adjectives to describe Sicily, many of them positive, but "pacifist" is not one that comes readily to mind.

I'm hopeful we're a ways off before we see folks raiding my local Target while the cops stand idly by.

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - Mick - 03-30-2020

(03-30-2020, 04:05 PM)2006alum Wrote: And it's not a surprise they're concerned about the places where the mafia still have a widespread presence, because shaking down local stores can happen in the best of times. I have a hard time seeing folks raid my local Target while the cops stand idly by.

Well, I watched the cops stand idly by while supporters of - ahem - one political party were routinely and repeatedly attacked. Apparently they'd been told to stand down.

And I had a late-in-life revelation a few years back. I found out that the police are under no obligation to protect people. None.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html
https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again

who knew?

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - 2006alum - 03-30-2020

(03-30-2020, 04:08 PM)Mick Wrote:
(03-30-2020, 04:05 PM)2006alum Wrote: And it's not a surprise they're concerned about the places where the mafia still have a widespread presence, because shaking down local stores can happen in the best of times. I have a hard time seeing folks raid my local Target while the cops stand idly by.

Well, I watched the cops stand idly by while supporters of - ahem - one political party were routinely and repeatedly attacked. Apparently they'd been told to stand down.

I agree - the treatment of the Freedom Riders in the 1950s and early 1960s was appalling. But in the era of Ring Doorbells, Dashboard Cams, and Facebook Livestreaming, it's a little harder to get away with long-term coordinated selective police enforcement, at least in the non-urban, non-poor enclaves where both of us are likely to live and work in.

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - Goose - 03-30-2020

(03-30-2020, 03:53 PM)Mick Wrote: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/italy-risks-losing-grip-in-south-with-fears-of-looting-and-riots/ar-BB11V5A1

I'm genuinely curious. If looting and rioting can happen in a pacifist country of old people with no firearms, what is likely to happen in a country of 300+ million guns and, shall we say, no lack of self-confidence/

Why do you believe Italy is a country with no firearms? Remember, one of the original reasons for the creation of the Carabinieri was that the police were out gunned by the mob.

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - BostonCard - 03-30-2020

You’ve evidently never been to an Italian fútbol match.

https://www.spiegel.de/international/after-massive-riot-italy-faces-up-to-soccer-violence-a-464369.html

When was the last time there was a riot at an American football match?

BC

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - JustAnotherFan - 03-30-2020

(03-30-2020, 04:08 PM)Mick Wrote: And I had a late-in-life revelation a few years back. I found out that the police are under no obligation to protect people. None.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html
https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again

who knew?

Defense attorneys. Prosecutors. Cops. Judges. People of color. Poor people. Immigrants. Sex workers. Homeless people.

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - cardcrimson - 03-30-2020

Good lord. I'm told by an admin that my opinions aren't welcome here because they don't play to the room. Fine. I quit posting. That was until this dandy popped up.

I guess the admins think this kind of post is A-okay: painting all the women and men that wear blue as bigots and racists? What a fine example this sets for anyone looking to Stanford as a place they may want to experience. Come to Stanford, where we hate the police and don't tolerate a diversity of thought.

(03-30-2020, 07:28 PM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:
(03-30-2020, 04:08 PM)Mick Wrote: And I had a late-in-life revelation a few years back. I found out that the police are under no obligation to protect people. None.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html
https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again

who knew?

Defense attorneys. Prosecutors. Cops. Judges. People of color. Poor people. Immigrants. Sex workers. Homeless people.

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - JustAnotherFan - 03-31-2020

(03-30-2020, 10:12 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Good lord. I'm told by an admin that my opinions aren't welcome here because they don't play to the room. Fine. I quit posting. That was until this dandy popped up.

I guess the admins think this kind of post is A-okay: painting all the women and men that wear blue as bigots and racists? What a fine example this sets for anyone looking to Stanford as a place they may want to experience. Come to Stanford, where we hate the police and don't tolerate a diversity of thought.

(03-30-2020, 07:28 PM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:
(03-30-2020, 04:08 PM)Mick Wrote: And I had a late-in-life revelation a few years back. I found out that the police are under no obligation to protect people. None.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html
https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again

who knew?

Defense attorneys. Prosecutors. Cops. Judges. People of color. Poor people. Immigrants. Sex workers. Homeless people.

Did I call ALL cops bigots and racists? No. You don't have to be a bigot or a racist to help effectuate bigoted and racist (and classist) policies. I'm guessing you might not be in any of the aforementioned groups because those people (yes, prosecutors, cops, and judges, as well) know that cops have no duty to protect. There's a line between saying ACAB and simply acknowledging the way that law enforcement and the law has been disproportionately applied and targeted at certain groups in US history and I got nowhere near it.

I didn't even name a politician or political party.

Goodgrief - GoodGrief - 03-31-2020

(03-30-2020, 10:12 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Good lord. I'm told by an admin that my opinions aren't welcome here because they don't play to the room. Fine. I quit posting. That was until this dandy popped up.

I guess the admins think this kind of post is A-okay: painting all the women and men that wear blue as bigots and racists? What a fine example this sets for anyone looking to Stanford as a place they may want to experience. Come to Stanford, where we hate the police and don't tolerate a diversity of thought.

You know, cardcrimson, pretty much every time there is an insulting, belittling post, it comes from you. I’d be just fine with your opinions even though I don’t agree with them if you could express them in a civilized manner. But instead, you write in an insulting, belittling fashion, and I bet that’s what the moderaters had a problem with as well. I also bet that you misinterpreted their messsage as saying “your opinions don’t play to the room”

It’s not what you say, it’s HOW you say it that is annoying.

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - Mick - 03-31-2020

(03-31-2020, 04:52 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:
(03-30-2020, 10:12 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Good lord. I'm told by an admin that my opinions aren't welcome here because they don't play to the room. Fine. I quit posting. That was until this dandy popped up.

I guess the admins think this kind of post is A-okay: painting all the women and men that wear blue as bigots and racists? What a fine example this sets for anyone looking to Stanford as a place they may want to experience. Come to Stanford, where we hate the police and don't tolerate a diversity of thought.

(03-30-2020, 07:28 PM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:
(03-30-2020, 04:08 PM)Mick Wrote: And I had a late-in-life revelation a few years back. I found out that the police are under no obligation to protect people. None.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html
https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again

who knew?

Defense attorneys. Prosecutors. Cops. Judges. People of color. Poor people. Immigrants. Sex workers. Homeless people.

Did I call ALL cops bigots and racists? No.

Actually, you kinda did. You didn't write "some cops" or "most cops" or "a few cops." You wrote "cops." Without a quantifiable determiner, I take it to mean "all."

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - 2006alum - 03-31-2020

Hey folks, realize tensions are running high, and everyone is dealing with a ton of stress. But let's try to give each other the H of G - what Paul Farmer calls the hermeneutic of generosity:

Quote:"An H of G" was short for "a hermeneutic of generosity," which [Paul Farmer] had defined once for me in an e-mail: "I have a hermeneutic of generosity for you because I know you're a good guy: Therefore I will interpret what you say and do in a favorable light. Seems like I'm the one who should hope for as much from you."

Times like this also call to mind David Foster Wallace's commencement address, This is Water. A portion of which I think is especially worth keeping in mind right now, because I'm sure we're all going through things that might be totally invisible to each other across the anonymity of the Internet:

Quote:The thing is that, of course, there are totally different ways to think about these kinds of situations. In this traffic, all these vehicles stopped and idling in my way, it’s not impossible that some of these people in SUV’s have been in horrible auto accidents in the past, and now find driving so terrifying that their therapist has all but ordered them to get a brobdingnagian, heavy SUV so they can feel safe enough to drive. Or that the Hummer that just cut me off is maybe being driven by a father whose little child is hurt or sick in the seat next to him, and he’s trying to get this kid to the hospital, and he’s in a bigger, more legitimate hurry than I am: it is actually I who am in HIS way.

Or I can choose to force myself to consider the likelihood that everyone else in the supermarket’s checkout line is just as bored and frustrated as I am, and that some of these people probably have harder, more tedious and painful lives than I do. Again, please don’t think that I’m giving you moral advice, or that I’m saying you are supposed to think this way, or that anyone expects you to just automatically do it. Because it’s hard. It takes will and effort, and if you are like me, some days you won’t be able to do it, or you just flat out won’t want to.

But most days, if you’re aware enough to give yourself a choice, you can choose to look differently at this fat, dead-eyed, over-made-up lady who just screamed at her kid in the checkout line. Maybe she’s not usually like this. Maybe she’s been up three straight nights holding the hand of a husband who is dying of bone cancer. Or maybe this very lady is the low-wage clerk at the motor vehicle department, who just yesterday helped your spouse resolve a horrific, infuriating, red-tape problem through some small act of bureaucratic kindness. Of course, none of this is likely, but it’s also not impossible. It just depends what you want to consider. If you’re automatically sure that you know what reality is, and you are operating on your default setting, then you, like me, probably won’t consider possibilities that aren’t annoying and miserable. But if you really learn how to pay attention, then you will know there are other options. It will actually be within your power to experience a crowded, hot, slow, consumer-hell type situation as not only meaningful, but sacred, on fire with the same force that made the stars: love, fellowship, the mystical oneness of all things deep down.

Not that that mystical stuff is necessarily true. The only thing that’s capital-T True is that you get to decide how you’re gonna try to see it. This, I submit, is the freedom of a real education, of learning how to be well-adjusted. You get to consciously decide what has meaning and what doesn’t. You get to decide what to worship.

Let's all try to take a deep breath and consider what we want from this forum, what we owe to each other, and what we would like in return.

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - JustAnotherFan - 03-31-2020

(03-31-2020, 05:56 AM)Mick Wrote:
(03-31-2020, 04:52 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:
(03-30-2020, 10:12 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Good lord. I'm told by an admin that my opinions aren't welcome here because they don't play to the room. Fine. I quit posting. That was until this dandy popped up.

I guess the admins think this kind of post is A-okay: painting all the women and men that wear blue as bigots and racists? What a fine example this sets for anyone looking to Stanford as a place they may want to experience. Come to Stanford, where we hate the police and don't tolerate a diversity of thought.

(03-30-2020, 07:28 PM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:
(03-30-2020, 04:08 PM)Mick Wrote: And I had a late-in-life revelation a few years back. I found out that the police are under no obligation to protect people. None.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html
https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again

who knew?

Defense attorneys. Prosecutors. Cops. Judges. People of color. Poor people. Immigrants. Sex workers. Homeless people.

Did I call ALL cops bigots and racists? No.

Actually, you kinda did. You didn't write "some cops" or "most cops" or "a few cops." You wrote "cops." Without a quantifiable determiner, I take it to mean "all."

Actually I didn't. I said cops. Cops know that they have no duty to protect. Just like defense attorneys. Prosecutors. Judges. People of color. Poor people. Immigrants. Sex workers. Homeless people. They all (all groups that is) know cops have no duty to protect. So are you suggesting that that means I was also saying defense attorneys, prosecutors, judges, people of color, the poor, immigrants, sex workers, and homeless people are ALL bigots, as in every single immigrant and sex worker is a bigot? After all, I didn't say some, or most, so I must have kinda meant ALL, right?

No. That is clearly not what I said.

It seems that people read what they want to read into what other people write. I also find it fascinating that the only issue taken was with cops.

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - pefloresjr - 03-31-2020

I agree with the suggestion to give everyone the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their intentions and comments.

Going back to the thread drift of police having no duty to protect, it is important to make clear that there are legal distinctions here. The three cases cited relate to governments being free from civil liability for not taking certain actions. Police officers and departments are still subject to civil liability for the improper actions they take, e.g. wrongfully arresting or assaulting a person. However, as a matter of public policy, the liability to the police or fire departments or many other government agencies would be so great if they were responsible for everyone they couldn't save or everything they didn't do that they would have to stop performing those functions completely.

Also, a lack of civil liability for not taking action does not mean that there is no duty at all. Duties can be enforced through taking away a person's license to practice or carry a weapon, through employment consequences including termination, and even through social pressures (like the cop who ran away from the school shooter) where a person is shamed into leaving a job.

Salud to all,
Cheers,
Pete F.

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - oldalum - 03-31-2020

(03-31-2020, 11:59 AM)pefloresjr Wrote: Cheers,
Pete F.

Pete, you are unfailingly cheerful, calm and reasonable.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU??!!

(just kidding)

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - Mick - 03-31-2020

(03-31-2020, 06:58 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:
(03-31-2020, 05:56 AM)Mick Wrote:
(03-31-2020, 04:52 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:
(03-30-2020, 10:12 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Good lord. I'm told by an admin that my opinions aren't welcome here because they don't play to the room. Fine. I quit posting. That was until this dandy popped up.

I guess the admins think this kind of post is A-okay: painting all the women and men that wear blue as bigots and racists? What a fine example this sets for anyone looking to Stanford as a place they may want to experience. Come to Stanford, where we hate the police and don't tolerate a diversity of thought.

(03-30-2020, 07:28 PM)JustAnotherFan Wrote: Defense attorneys. Prosecutors. Cops. Judges. People of color. Poor people. Immigrants. Sex workers. Homeless people.

Did I call ALL cops bigots and racists? No.

Actually, you kinda did. You didn't write "some cops" or "most cops" or "a few cops." You wrote "cops." Without a quantifiable determiner, I take it to mean "all."

Actually I didn't. I said cops. Cops know that they have no duty to protect. Just like defense attorneys. Prosecutors. Judges. People of color. Poor people. Immigrants. Sex workers. Homeless people. They all (all groups that is) know cops have no duty to protect. So are you suggesting that that means I was also saying defense attorneys, prosecutors, judges, people of color, the poor, immigrants, sex workers, and homeless people are ALL bigots, as in every single immigrant and sex worker is a bigot? After all, I didn't say some, or most, so I must have kinda meant ALL, right?

No. That is clearly not what I said.

It seems that people read what they want to read into what other people write. I also find it fascinating that the only issue taken was with cops.

I find it fascinating that this is your initial encounter with that concept.

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - BostonCard - 04-01-2020

(03-30-2020, 03:53 PM)Mick Wrote: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/italy-risks-losing-grip-in-south-with-fears-of-looting-and-riots/ar-BB11V5A1

I'm genuinely curious. If looting and rioting can happen in a pacifist country of old people with no firearms, what is likely to happen in a country of 300+ million guns and, shall we say, no lack of self-confidence/

Interestingly, crime is down in a bunch of US cities (notably San Francisco):

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/03/27/as-coronavirus-surges-crime-declines-in-some-cities

[/url]

Quote:[url=https://data.sfgov.org/Public-Safety/Police-Department-Incident-Reports-2018-to-Present/wg3w-h783]San Francisco data showed the biggest drop in crime reports, which fell 42 percent during the week of March 16. That’s when the city became the first metropolis in the United States to force residents to “shelter at their place of residence.”

RE: Looting in Italy, are we next? - stupac2 - 04-01-2020

That doesn't seem surprising at all to me, since most crimes are petty crimes of opportunity. Can't grab someone's phone while the BART doors are closing if no one's on BART, can't grab a laptop from a cafe if the cafes are closed, can't smash a window to grab a backpack if all the backpacks are inside, etc etc etc.

Plus you have to imagine that the ratio of citizens to police officers on the streets is through the roof right now.