Effectiveness of masks - Printable Version
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Effectiveness of masks - BostonCard - 05-01-2020
This article, if the results are borne out, is disconcerting:
https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison
Quote:In conclusion, both surgical and cotton masks seem to be ineffective in preventing the dissemination of SARS–CoV-2 from the coughs of patients with COVID-19 to the environment and external mask surface.
So maybe Pence wasn't wrong not to wear one.
BC
RE: Effectiveness of masks - oldalum - 05-01-2020
(05-01-2020, 10:37 AM)BostonCard Wrote: So maybe Pence wasn't wrong not to wear one.He was wrong because it violated the institution's policy at the time, regardless of whether the POLICY is later determined to have been wrong.
But it makes no sense in the study that "All swabs from the outer mask surfaces of the masks were positive for SARS–CoV-2, whereas most swabs from the inner mask surfaces were negative"
RE: Effectiveness of masks - BostonCard - 05-01-2020
Yeah, I noticed that. The authors try to explain it, but I didn't find any of their hypotheses compelling.
BC
RE: Effectiveness of masks - dabigv13 - 05-01-2020
This article should have little bearing on public recommendations for masking. Small study (4 patients). Internally inconsistent findings (why no virus on inside of mask?). Also, I don't think anybody thought that a surgical mask would completely trap all viral particles from an infectious person coughing. I think it would be interesting to try this study without the induced coughing. But even so, probably not too important for public health policy.
If a mask simply reduces the amount or distance of spread of viral particles, it is a public health benefit. This study cannot answer those questions.
RE: Effectiveness of masks - oldalum - 05-01-2020
It makes some sense to me that coughing causes a forced leakage of air around the mask which results in contamination of the environment, while simply breathing would cause most of the exhaled air to pass through the mask/filter. If so, maybe the public health lesson should be that if you have a cough you should not go out in public at all; everyone else should wear masks in public. But I agree, this is a preliminary, exploratory study that just points the way toward better formal research.
RE: Effectiveness of masks - OutsiderFan - 05-01-2020
![[Image: 3EcrgXYFRQNq2MJ81rNw5fIHFz3FMcKcc1JkRHui...f3278a1792]](https://external-preview.redd.it/3EcrgXYFRQNq2MJ81rNw5fIHFz3FMcKcc1JkRHuiBWc.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=00fffb7b8e9011c1c9406e9a776ab9f3278a1792)
RE: Effectiveness of masks - BostonCard - 05-01-2020
(05-01-2020, 11:51 AM)oldalum Wrote: It makes some sense to me that coughing causes a forced leakage of air around the mask which results in contamination of the environment, while simply breathing would cause most of the exhaled air to pass through the mask/filter. If so, maybe the public health lesson should be that if you have a cough you should not go out in public at all; everyone else should wear masks in public. But I agree, this is a preliminary, exploratory study that just points the way toward better formal research.
I think that was the lesson I drew from the article as well. For a patient who is symptomatic, the masks will probably offer limited protection to other people and therefore should not be used as a substitute for self-quarantine. They may help prevent spread from asymptomatic people who are simply breathing normally or talking, but symptomatic patients with COVID-19 should stay the f home unless they absolutely cannot.
BC
OF, the whole point of the article is that, to use your analogy, if the other guy pees, you are still going to get wet.
As I said, masks may be helpful if the other guy is asymptomatic and just breathing normally. With the caveats of the article, they do not seem to be helpful if the other guy is symptomatic and coughing through the mask, and thus they should not be used as a substitute for self-qurantine.
BC
RE: Effectiveness of masks - Farm93 - 05-01-2020
(05-01-2020, 11:59 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:That is the ticket! And since VP Pence interacts with people all day long it doesn't matter if he is tested regularly. At any point in time he might test negative, but that does not mean at a future point in time he is still negative. He could also have been sick with any number of contagious diseases that would be problematic for patients in the hospital.
Best would have been for him to follow the policy. We now know that is true because he wore a mask the next day when visiting a manufacturing plant with a similar policy.
Short of going into a surgical suite or an industrial clean room I would expect most companies would hope a POTUS or VPOTUS would follow protocols, but likely would not prohibit that VIP from entering the facility. Really awful for Pence to put Mayo Clinic in that lose-lose position.
Glad to see that apparent VP Pence is still healthy and that his policy defiance probably has not impacted any of the patients or staff at the Mayo Clinic.
RE: Effectiveness of masks - oldalum - 05-01-2020
(05-01-2020, 11:59 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:the analogy to the study is that a person with Covid-19 coughing while wearing a surgical mask is like the guy who pees while wearing pants with the zipper down (and no underwear).
RE: Effectiveness of masks - OutsiderFan - 05-01-2020
Sigh.
People who are coughing and symptomatic should be at home isolated. The masks for everyone else are to stop asymptomatic spread from people who aren't coughing.
I frankly don't understand why this is so hard to understand. We can't let "not perfect" be the enemy of "good enough" in the circumstances we are in. And let's not forget, we can't look at everything strictly through a medical lens. Just the mere idea that people feel more safe around others when everyone is wearing a mask will help increase out of home economic activity that is really needed.
Walking my dogs yesterday, I saw 8 people and 6 were wearing masks, including some teenage girls. It was heartening to see. Today American Airlines put out a message that all passengers will be required to wear a mask. One wonders the point of waiting until May 11 to require them but they are going to make them mandatory. I know I am far more likely to fly knowing everyone must wear a mask than if it is optional. Of course, I'd prefer a SCUBA setup...
RE: Effectiveness of masks - 76lsjumb - 05-01-2020
(05-01-2020, 10:48 AM)oldalum Wrote:(05-01-2020, 10:37 AM)BostonCard Wrote: So maybe Pence wasn't wrong not to wear one.He was wrong because it violated the institution's policy at the time, regardless of whether the POLICY is later determined to have been wrong.
But it makes no sense in the study that "All swabs from the outer mask surfaces of the masks were positive for SARS–CoV-2, whereas most swabs from the inner mask surfaces were negative"
He was wrong because he is a member of the Trump Administration and everything done by any member of the Trump Administration is, by definition, wrong. That’s just science.
RE: Effectiveness of masks - M T - 05-01-2020
And the winner is....
the male 32 days after first symptoms
He gets the blue ribbon for highest viral load, by nasal swab, saliva, and coughing.
32 days...
The older woman with ARDS apparently couldn't cough out very much. Not surprising!
RE: Effectiveness of masks - magnus - 05-01-2020
Not related to this article, but to the subject.
I was talking to an ER doc who has seen lots of Covid patients and he is starting to believe that surgical masks are good enough for preventing getting infected. While he uses an N95 when intubating, he only gets to use a surgical mask at other times. And thus far, no infection. Maybe he (and his colleagues) has been lucky, but at least a better anecdote than hearing about surgical masks being inadequate. =)
RE: Effectiveness of masks - Snorlax94 - 05-02-2020
Here is some depressing news regarding masks... it’s moments like these where I feel America will be uniquely incapable of containing Covid or averting a crisis like in nyc or Italy.
Oklahoma town amends order requiring face masks in stores and restaurants after threats of violence towards employees
From CNN's Hollie Silverman
An emergency proclamation issued Thursday in Stillwater, Oklahoma, requiring the use of face masks in stores and restaurants was amended Friday after several reports of threats, a statement from Stillwater City Manager Norman McNickle said.
"In the short time beginning on May 1, 2020, that face coverings have been required for entry into stores/restaurants, store employees have been threatened with physical violence and showered with verbal abuse," McNickle said in the statement. "In addition, there has been one threat of violence using a firearm. This has occurred in three short hours and in the face of clear medical evidence that face coverings helps contain the spread of COVID-19."
RE: Effectiveness of masks - Farm93 - 05-02-2020
(05-02-2020, 04:29 PM)Snorlax94 Wrote: Here is some depressing news regarding masks... it’s moments like these where I feel America will be uniquely incapable of containing Covid or averting a crisis like in nyc or Italy.
Oklahoma town amends order requiring face masks in stores and restaurants after threats of violence towards employees
From CNN's Hollie Silverman
An emergency proclamation issued Thursday in Stillwater, Oklahoma, requiring the use of face masks in stores and restaurants was amended Friday after several reports of threats, a statement from Stillwater City Manager Norman McNickle said.
"In the short time beginning on May 1, 2020, that face coverings have been required for entry into stores/restaurants, store employees have been threatened with physical violence and showered with verbal abuse," McNickle said in the statement. "In addition, there has been one threat of violence using a firearm. This has occurred in three short hours and in the face of clear medical evidence that face coverings helps contain the spread of COVID-19."
I think this type of action, and local decision, will end any chance for college football in August.
I just can't imagine how OSU could get people to socially distance to assigned seats in a stadium or require 20,000-60,000 fans to wear masks. If the teams played without fans, I can easily imagine 15,000 fans standing at the gates protesting for their "constitutional right" to attend the game.
Maybe the Governor of Oklahoma will tolerate this type of citizen action, but I have to believe the NCAA will not want to get involved. If any adjustments to the 2019 norms causes people to protest then it looks like no season will become the default. I can't imagine the NCAA will be able to allow all of the normal traditions (tailgates, player walks, bands, and packed stands) in August 2020, so I suspect the potential for fan revolts at stadiums will cause the NCAA to select the season cancellation option.
RE: Effectiveness of masks - akiddoc - 05-02-2020
(05-02-2020, 05:39 PM)Farm93 Wrote:(05-02-2020, 04:29 PM)Snorlax94 Wrote: Here is some depressing news regarding masks... it’s moments like these where I feel America will be uniquely incapable of containing Covid or averting a crisis like in nyc or Italy.
Oklahoma town amends order requiring face masks in stores and restaurants after threats of violence towards employees
From CNN's Hollie Silverman
An emergency proclamation issued Thursday in Stillwater, Oklahoma, requiring the use of face masks in stores and restaurants was amended Friday after several reports of threats, a statement from Stillwater City Manager Norman McNickle said.
"In the short time beginning on May 1, 2020, that face coverings have been required for entry into stores/restaurants, store employees have been threatened with physical violence and showered with verbal abuse," McNickle said in the statement. "In addition, there has been one threat of violence using a firearm. This has occurred in three short hours and in the face of clear medical evidence that face coverings helps contain the spread of COVID-19."
I think this type of action, and local decision, will end any chance for college football in August.
I just can't imagine how OSU could get people to socially distance to assigned seats in a stadium or require 20,000-60,000 fans to wear masks. If the teams played without fans, I can easily imagine 15,000 fans standing at the gates protesting for their "constitutional right" to attend the game.
Maybe the Governor of Oklahoma will tolerate this type of citizen action, but I have to believe the NCAA will not want to get involved. If any adjustments to the 2019 norms causes people to protest then it looks like no season will become the default. I can't imagine the NCAA will be able to allow all of the normal traditions (tailgates, player walks, bands, and packed stands) in August 2020, so I suspect the potential for fan revolts at stadiums will cause the NCAA to select the season cancellation option.
I can see football proceeding with small numbers including player families. Outdoor transmission is not nearly as common per Chinese studies.
RE: Effectiveness of masks - Griffins78 - 05-02-2020
(05-02-2020, 04:29 PM)Snorlax94 Wrote: Here is some depressing news regarding masks... it’s moments like these where I feel America will be uniquely incapable of containing Covid or averting a crisis like in nyc or Italy.This kind of behavior and the perpetrators make me mad. They should be put in a COViD-19 infected prison.
Oklahoma town amends order requiring face masks in stores and restaurants after threats of violence towards employees
From CNN's Hollie Silverman
An emergency proclamation issued Thursday in Stillwater, Oklahoma, requiring the use of face masks in stores and restaurants was amended Friday after several reports of threats, a statement from Stillwater City Manager Norman McNickle said.
"In the short time beginning on May 1, 2020, that face coverings have been required for entry into stores/restaurants, store employees have been threatened with physical violence and showered with verbal abuse," McNickle said in the statement. "In addition, there has been one threat of violence using a firearm. This has occurred in three short hours and in the face of clear medical evidence that face coverings helps contain the spread of COVID-19."
Theas employees are FORCED to put their lives at risk or lose their jobs just so some idiot can be “free” to go shop or dine and then threaten them with a gun because he doesn’t want to wear a mask.
The government capitulated and decided to no longer enforce their own laws and no longer protect the lives and livelihoods of their citizens forced to work.
And DT is inciting and applauding this kind of behavior.
RE: Effectiveness of masks - OutsiderFan - 05-03-2020
In February it was my assumption the United States would by far have the worst outbreak and suffer the most damage from it. I’m actually amazed it hasn’t been worse than it has been.
Of course, I didn’t factor in adding how many trillions to our debt, the specter of bankrupt states, losing the USPS, or facing an economic depression into the equation either.
It’s pretty transparently obvious why it was a foregone conclusion we would fare the worst. The Michigan morons and outlandish Oklahomans are but two symptoms of why.
RE: Effectiveness of masks - Mick - 05-03-2020
(05-02-2020, 06:20 PM)Griffins78 Wrote:(05-02-2020, 04:29 PM)Snorlax94 Wrote: Here is some depressing news regarding masks... it’s moments like these where I feel America will be uniquely incapable of containing Covid or averting a crisis like in nyc or Italy.This kind of behavior and the perpetrators make me mad. They should be put in a COViD-19 infected prison.
Oklahoma town amends order requiring face masks in stores and restaurants after threats of violence towards employees
From CNN's Hollie Silverman
An emergency proclamation issued Thursday in Stillwater, Oklahoma, requiring the use of face masks in stores and restaurants was amended Friday after several reports of threats, a statement from Stillwater City Manager Norman McNickle said.
"In the short time beginning on May 1, 2020, that face coverings have been required for entry into stores/restaurants, store employees have been threatened with physical violence and showered with verbal abuse," McNickle said in the statement. "In addition, there has been one threat of violence using a firearm. This has occurred in three short hours and in the face of clear medical evidence that face coverings helps contain the spread of COVID-19."
Theas employees are FORCED to put their lives at risk or lose their jobs just so some idiot can be “free” to go shop or dine and then threaten them with a gun because he doesn’t want to wear a mask.
The government capitulated and decided to no longer enforce their own laws and no longer protect the lives and livelihoods of their citizens forced to work.
And DT is inciting and applauding this kind of behavior.
Unfortunately, I think this will happen more and more. Even Gov. Newsom referenced the fact that people will start to unilaterally decide the laws that work for them, and the Orange County sheriff stated that he wouldn't enforce the beach prohibitions.
But let's not pretend this is the first time government has ignored laws. It is not unusual for government to refuse to enforce laws.
RE: Effectiveness of masks - chrisk - 05-03-2020
Ohio’s governor was forced to drop the mask requirement due to protests.