The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on

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The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - BostonCard - 05-23-2020

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2766070

Only 12.6% of the public, in Singapore, could put the mask on to pass a visual mask fit (VMF) test. That may still provide some protection, especially against outbound infection, but more recently I've started seeing more people wear a mask below their nostrils. My wife joked that it was going to be a fashion trend like wearing low-rider jeans.

BC[url=https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2766070?guestAccessKey=b5c07a7b-51dd-4aaf-b4ff-00f8b32316e5&utm_source=silverchair&utm_campaign=jama_network&utm_content=covid_weekly_highlights&utm_medium=email#zld200059r2][/url]

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - Snorlax94 - 05-23-2020

Yeah, I have seen some people wearing masks below the nostrils also. I assumed it was not because they didn’t know how to wear it, but for comfort and breathability, like they are trying to do the absolute minimum, like only getting liability insurance for a car. Wearing a mask over only the mouth would at least reduce outgoing transmission from mouth breathing, talking and coughing, but it would do nothing if someone sneezed, so I find it annoying.

On the plus side, I am seeing disposable masks for sale everywhere — at Target, at Walgreens, even at the gas station stores or at 7-11s. Most are not medically rated, but I guess the supplies in CA are so good now, some of them are advertised as “surgical grade”, fwiw. I am hopeful that by the flu season, medical grade masks will be so abundant that they will be easily available, high-quality, and closer to the non-pandemic price.

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - dabigv13 - 05-23-2020

One thing I am seeing a lot of are masks with valves on them. This can make it easier for people to exhale, but it obviates some of the purpose of the mask to trap your own respiratory secretions. I think most of them are manufactured that way because it makes them seem more premium to an unknowledgeable consumer.

I don't think any random person on the street should be using an n95, but the 3m 1860 or the home depot style masks are probably the easiest for someone without training to use. Then again, if you haven't been fit tested, it isn't clear they would provide any more protection than a standard mask.

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - Goose - 05-23-2020

(05-23-2020, 03:36 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: One thing I am seeing a lot of are masks with valves on them. This can make it easier for people to exhale, but it obviates some of the purpose of the mask to trap your own respiratory secretions. I think most of them are manufactured that way because it makes them seem more premium to an unknowledgeable consumer.

I believe they are manufactured that way because they are designed to use in construction and factory settings where there is lots of particulate matter contamination that needs to be excluded from inhalation. Exhalation needs to be as easy as possible, as in this setting there is no requirement to filter the exhaled air.

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - dabigv13 - 05-23-2020

I'm referring to the cloth masks with valves that I see a lot of people wearing. Not the n95 respirators with valves that are used in construction, though I do have a beef with people wearing those around as well.

[Image: NYosJ1kNnMDFWzCQ7]

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - 76lsjumb - 05-23-2020

On the subject of mask-wearing, someone I know recently posted this. I thought it was a perceptive take on the issue:

Dear friends, let me preface this by saying, I 100% believe in and comply with social distancing and wearing a mask outside my home. If someone in my sphere of influence were refusing to wear a mask, I would have a conversation with them about it and try to persuade them otherwise. It is a good thing to share evidence-based data about why masks are beneficial for those who simply lack information. I was a nurse for 10+ years and so grateful to have access to PAPRs and N95s when I needed them.
That being said. It is trendy these days to make every other post on social media a hashtag bashing of people who don't want to wear masks. It helps us feel good about doing the right thing, and a little bit more in control of the crazy events spiraling around us. And yes, undoubtedly, it is the Right Opinion. However, there are many reasons someone might not wear a mask. Yes, some of these people might be selfish and cavalier and value their own life far above anyone else's. Some might see it as a way to assert their independence or as a rah-rah symbol for Trump.
But when you label the maskless people you saw at the store as dumb or selfish, you don't actually know if that is true, or if they have respiratory conditions or sensory processing differences that make mask-wearing untenable (SPD doesn't just mean it's kind of uncomfortable--it means things that are uncomfortable for you and I are downright painful and incapacitating for someone with SPD. Yeah, it might seem ridiculous to you, but it's the brain they were born with, they didn't ask for it).
Even more, when someone doesn't wear a mask--even if they verbalize it as saying they want to assert themselves, or nobody else controls them, or they don't want to live in fear, or whatever--you don't know what depth of anxiety, fear, overwhelm, depression, or inflexible thinking due to neurodevelopmental differences they are dealing with. Does it make their choice to go maskless right? No. But, they are still human beings, who, although you profoundly disagree with them, deserve compassion and care for the hidden struggles that have brought them to that place, just as those who are at higher risk for Covid deserve our compassion and care by following proper infection control measures. At the door to Costco, protection from infection trumps everything else. In the way we speak to one another, we can do better and we can do both. For my friends in the faith community, especially--I see you post all the time about reducing the stigma for mental illness/anxiety/depression. But, this is one of the (hard, yes) steps we can take to actually do that. By not making the worst assumptions about people and writing them off as morally bankrupt based on one thing, without even trying to understand what is going on inside their head or how they got to that point. Anxiety can make people make poor decisions. We need to put safeguards in place around those decisions, but if you really care about people's anxiety, please don't so quickly turn around and label people dumb and selfish because of an external behavior, without taking the time to go deeper into mental and neurological conditions that could be at the root of the behavior.
To reiterate, I'm not saying don't post data that shows why masks are helpful. I'm not saying that people should be allowed into stores without masks when they're upset about the masks (they shouldn't--there are other ways around that, like grocery delivery or having a friend shop for you). And I'm certainly not saying don't wear masks.
I am saying, just pause for a few seconds before you post hashtags like #dontbeselfishwearamask. Maybe just say #yaymasks or #maskssavelives. None of us have the corner on moral rectitude, and we all adopt negative behaviors and attitudes at times to cope with anxiety. Protocols like requiring masks in stores are in place to keep one person's difficulty coping from putting another person at risk. But the way we speak online is a totally different forum, where we can afford a little more grace and kindness (again, your influence in convincing people to wear masks will go a lot further with individual people you know, than with that random high school classmate you friended 10 years ago). You can keep people safe from Covid AND not layer onto people's pre-existing struggles that result in negative behaviors. The two are not mutually exclusive.

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - BostonCard - 05-23-2020

(05-23-2020, 06:07 PM)76lsjumb Wrote: On the subject of mask-wearing, someone I know recently posted this. I thought it was a perceptive take on the issue:

Dear friends, let me preface this by saying, I 100% believe in and comply with social distancing and wearing a mask outside my home. If someone in my sphere of influence were refusing to wear a mask, I would have a conversation with them about it and try to persuade them otherwise. It is a good thing to share evidence-based data about why masks are beneficial for those who simply lack information. I was a nurse for 10+ years and so grateful to have access to PAPRs and N95s when I needed them.
That being said. It is trendy these days to make every other post on social media a hashtag bashing of people who don't want to wear masks. It helps us feel good about doing the right thing, and a little bit more in control of the crazy events spiraling around us. And yes, undoubtedly, it is the Right Opinion. However, there are many reasons someone might not wear a mask. Yes, some of these people might be selfish and cavalier and value their own life far above anyone else's. Some might see it as a way to assert their independence or as a rah-rah symbol for Trump.
But when you label the maskless people you saw at the store as dumb or selfish, you don't actually know if that is true, or if they have respiratory conditions or sensory processing differences that make mask-wearing untenable (SPD doesn't just mean it's kind of uncomfortable--it means things that are uncomfortable for you and I are downright painful and incapacitating for someone with SPD. Yeah, it might seem ridiculous to you, but it's the brain they were born with, they didn't ask for it).
Even more, when someone doesn't wear a mask--even if they verbalize it as saying they want to assert themselves, or nobody else controls them, or they don't want to live in fear, or whatever--you don't know what depth of anxiety, fear, overwhelm, depression, or inflexible thinking due to neurodevelopmental differences they are dealing with. Does it make their choice to go maskless right? No. But, they are still human beings, who, although you profoundly disagree with them, deserve compassion and care for the hidden struggles that have brought them to that place, just as those who are at higher risk for Covid deserve our compassion and care by following proper infection control measures. At the door to Costco, protection from infection trumps everything else. In the way we speak to one another, we can do better and we can do both. For my friends in the faith community, especially--I see you post all the time about reducing the stigma for mental illness/anxiety/depression. But, this is one of the (hard, yes) steps we can take to actually do that. By not making the worst assumptions about people and writing them off as morally bankrupt based on one thing, without even trying to understand what is going on inside their head or how they got to that point. Anxiety can make people make poor decisions. We need to put safeguards in place around those decisions, but if you really care about people's anxiety, please don't so quickly turn around and label people dumb and selfish because of an external behavior, without taking the time to go deeper into mental and neurological conditions that could be at the root of the behavior.
To reiterate, I'm not saying don't post data that shows why masks are helpful. I'm not saying that people should be allowed into stores without masks when they're upset about the masks (they shouldn't--there are other ways around that, like grocery delivery or having a friend shop for you). And I'm certainly not saying don't wear masks.
I am saying, just pause for a few seconds before you post hashtags like #dontbeselfishwearamask. Maybe just say #yaymasks or #maskssavelives. None of us have the corner on moral rectitude, and we all adopt negative behaviors and attitudes at times to cope with anxiety. Protocols like requiring masks in stores are in place to keep one person's difficulty coping from putting another person at risk. But the way we speak online is a totally different forum, where we can afford a little more grace and kindness (again, your influence in convincing people to wear masks will go a lot further with individual people you know, than with that random high school classmate you friended 10 years ago). You can keep people safe from Covid AND not layer onto people's pre-existing struggles that result in negative behaviors. The two are not mutually exclusive.

That's a very good perspective.

BC

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - M T - 05-24-2020

(05-23-2020, 04:44 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: I'm referring to the cloth masks with valves that I see a lot of people wearing. Not the n95 respirators with valves that are used in construction, though I do have a beef with people wearing those around as well.

At least in Northern California, the N95 masks with valves were widely purchased to deal with the smoke of forest fires. Back in late February/early March, when surgical masks disappeared, so did these. I remember seeing a segment by a hardware store employee showing the empty shelves and complaining about how it will take months to restock them and bemoaning what were people going to do when fire season came around. (That's just to demonstrate the relative threat some people felt of the virus then.)

In San Mateo County, such a mask does not qualify as a face covering to meet the health department orders.

Quote:Note that any mask that incorporates a one-way valve (typically a raised plastic cylinder about the size of a quarter on the front or side of the mask) that is designed to facilitate easy exhaling is not a Face Covering under this Order and is not to be used to comply with this Order’s requirements.

I'm sorta sad to see the blind faith in face masks and 6 feet now just as strong as it was in washing hands and coughing into elbows in March. Hey, we're wearing masks & we're tired of being isolated, so let's open up. [ I hope that faith bears out, but it has been demonstrated that surgical & cotton masks don't stop the virus at least at short range when a sick person coughs.. EDIT: 25 Nov 2020: I saw that this article has been withdrawn.]

And, many here presume that the face mask on a sick person protects those around them and discount the protection of the mask for the wearer from infection from persons unknown. I think the irritation some may feel for others without masks is based on this belief. I suggest we recognize that YOUR wearing a mask protects YOU. As one study found, "Always wearing a mask when going out was associated with a 70% reduction in risk compared with never wearing a mask. Wearing a mask intermittently was associated with a smaller yet significant reduction in risk". (Yes, we'd rather it be 100% reduction.) Perhaps naively, I think that would translate to dropping R0 by 2/3's.

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - 2006alum - 05-24-2020

(05-23-2020, 06:07 PM)76lsjumb Wrote: Even more, when someone doesn't wear a mask--even if they verbalize it as saying they want to assert themselves, or nobody else controls them, or they don't want to live in fear, or whatever--you don't know what depth of anxiety, fear, overwhelm, depression, or inflexible thinking due to neurodevelopmental differences they are dealing with. Does it make their choice to go maskless right? No. But, they are still human beings, who, although you profoundly disagree with them, deserve compassion and care for the hidden struggles that have brought them to that place, just as those who are at higher risk for Covid deserve our compassion and care by following proper infection control measures.

For what it's worth, I have yet to see anyone online articulate a coherent explanation along the lines quoted above as their personal reason for not wearing a mask.

Online, what I've mostly seen is videos of people threatening low-paid security guards and store personnel for making them follow the rules. And it's not surprising that these rude and indignant individuals are met with massive vitriol online, especially since half the time they're the ones to have recorded themselves having a meltdown.

In person, I've not yet seen a single case of mask-shaming in either direction - shaming those who do, or shaming those who don't - but perhaps living in SF means that people are a bit more live and let live. I'm very thankful that thus far I've yet to have one unpleasant encounter of any kind. Everyone has been conscientious about spacing, mask wearing inside, etc. Many well wishes of "be safe" etc. But just as the stock market is not the economy, twitter is not the real world.

For what it's worth, I also think it doesn't help when the leaders of the country manage to make mask-wearing a partisan issue. Once that happens, few people view this issue through the lens of "neurodevelopmental differences."

And yes, we could all be kinder. First and foremost, probably, would be to shut down twitter and facebook altogether.

My two cents.

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - oregontim - 05-24-2020

Sunday morning now, cable news reporting on beaches opening etc., and disturbing reports of people wearing masks getting verbally attacked by strangers. Google politicization of masks and you get 131K hits, including two Republican governors (Ohio and North Dakota) speaking against it, insisting in public statements that masks are for safety and have nothing to do with politics.

How did the mere wearing of masks become contentious? In what dystopia?

I think we're seeing the worst of bad government with this. The president of the USA lives and breathes "us against them" and has made masks a political issue. And we've seen (including here, in other chats) how 46% of tweets against SIP are bots; and the astroturfed armed protests following the president's "Liberate" tweets.

Seems terrible to me. Reopening the economy doesn't have to mean abandon all caution. This seems to me like thuggery. And I blame the president for quietly, and in code, encouraging it.

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - magnus - 05-24-2020

(05-24-2020, 11:53 AM)oregontim Wrote: How did the mere wearing of masks become contentious?

It's a very overt sign of being forced to do something that you're not used to. Some people are more resistant under such circumstances than others.

Also, perhaps masks have had a negative connotation in our history, being linked to robberies and such.

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - Crafter Artisan - 05-24-2020

(05-24-2020, 10:04 AM)2006alum Wrote: And yes, we could all be kinder. First and foremost, probably, would be to shut down twitter and facebook altogether.

Or at least take facebook out of the hands of Zuckerberg, the smirking goon, child, Big-Brother-wannabe psychopath.

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - Snorlax94 - 05-24-2020

(05-24-2020, 12:09 PM)magnus Wrote:
(05-24-2020, 11:53 AM)oregontim Wrote: How did the mere wearing of masks become contentious?
It's a very overt sign of being forced to do something that you're not used to. Some people are more resistant under such circumstances than others.

Also, perhaps masks have had a negative connotation in our history, being linked to robberies and such.

There are conservatives and liberals, both young people *and* old people, rebellious people and community-minded people in Czech Republic, South Korea, New Zealand, and many other countries where more universal adoption of masks have helped get Covid under control, yet somehow only the Trumper crowd in the US has these deep-seated psychological revulsions. What a coincidence.

I actually think part of the problem in the US is the fact that masks were so difficult to come by initially, and people were told not to get masks and that only doctors should wear high-quality protective masks, and you should wear crappy masks that won’t protect you but only protect others from you. The sad thing is now I see well-made masks everywhere, and the prices are coming down, and the supplies are so great that I even see medical-grade masks available to the general public, so now people should be a lot more enthusiastic about wearing masks, but now some people have developed an intractable, deep-seated opposition to masks, and this opposition to masks could harm them, could harm their community, and will increase the R0 which will also continue to ruin the economy. They are willing to die for the Dow but cannot bear the thought of wearing a mask.

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - oregontim - 05-24-2020

(05-24-2020, 01:01 PM)Snorlax94 Wrote:
(05-24-2020, 12:09 PM)magnus Wrote: It's a very overt sign of being forced to do something that you're not used to. Some people are more resistant under such circumstances than others.

Also, perhaps masks have had a negative connotation in our history, being linked to robberies and such.

There are conservatives and liberals, both young people *and* old people, rebellious people and community-minded people in Czech Republic, South Korea, New Zealand, and many other countries where more universal adoption of masks have helped get Covid under control, yet somehow only the Trumper crowd in the US has these deep-seated psychological revulsions. What a coincidence.

... but now some people have developed an intractable, deep-seated opposition to masks, and this opposition to masks could harm them, could harm their community, and will increase the R0 which will also continue to ruin the economy. They are willing to die for the Dow but cannot bear the thought of wearing a mask.

Yes, I agree with the implications. This dysfunctional behavior is not random; its what Donald Trump wants and his followers promote.

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - Goose - 05-24-2020

(05-24-2020, 12:09 PM)magnus Wrote:
(05-24-2020, 11:53 AM)oregontim Wrote: How did the mere wearing of masks become contentious?
It's a very overt sign of being forced to do something that you're not used to. Some people are more resistant under such circumstances than others.

Also, perhaps masks have had a negative connotation in our history, being linked to robberies and such.

To be precise, it goes back much further than that. During feudal times entering the house or land of another feudal entity with your helmet visor down (or your chain mail hooked up to your helmet if you were a man-at-arms) was an act of war and you could be killed on the spot. These things do carry over it seems.

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - Mick - 05-25-2020

(05-24-2020, 10:04 AM)2006alum Wrote: In person, I've not yet seen a single case of mask-shaming in either direction - shaming those who do, or shaming those who don't - but perhaps living in SF means that people are a bit more live and let live. I'm very thankful that thus far I've yet to have one unpleasant encounter of any kind.

I've had the opposite experience. I walk 4-6 miles every day without a face mask. Just a few times, people in cars have slowed down to yell at me for not wearing a mask. But that's in San Jose.

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - 2006alum - 05-25-2020

(05-25-2020, 07:50 AM)Mick Wrote:
(05-24-2020, 10:04 AM)2006alum Wrote: In person, I've not yet seen a single case of mask-shaming in either direction - shaming those who do, or shaming those who don't - but perhaps living in SF means that people are a bit more live and let live. I'm very thankful that thus far I've yet to have one unpleasant encounter of any kind.

I've had the opposite experience. I walk 4-6 miles every day without a face mask. Just a few times, people in cars have slowed down to yell at me for not wearing a mask. But that's in San Jose.

Wow, so strange. I've been visiting elderly relatives in San Jose about once a week for the past two months and I go for a run almost every time (approx. 4 miles), without a mask. (Including just now.) Maybe it's because folks just concede to no-mask for runners, but everyone I pass has been neutral to friendly so far. (Admittedly, I make sure to run a really wide berth around them, so maybe they wave or nod because they're appreciative I'm giving them so much space as I pass.)

But tons of folks walk around SF without a mask when they're walking for exercise (including me), and I've yet to see one mask shaming.

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - BostonCard - 05-25-2020

(05-25-2020, 07:50 AM)Mick Wrote:
(05-24-2020, 10:04 AM)2006alum Wrote: In person, I've not yet seen a single case of mask-shaming in either direction - shaming those who do, or shaming those who don't - but perhaps living in SF means that people are a bit more live and let live. I'm very thankful that thus far I've yet to have one unpleasant encounter of any kind.

I've had the opposite experience. I walk 4-6 miles every day without a face mask. Just a few times, people in cars have slowed down to yell at me for not wearing a mask. But that's in San Jose.

I always think it is funny when I see someone in a car, by themselves, wearing a mask. I mean, good for them, but it's probably unnecessary.

When I walk here in Burlingame I do so without a mask (though I carry one in case unless I forget). There's enough space to social distance. I'd say 90% of people I encounter are not wearing masks either. But again, there's plenty of room to social distance.

BC

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - oregontim - 05-25-2020

(05-25-2020, 07:50 AM)Mick Wrote:
(05-24-2020, 10:04 AM)2006alum Wrote: In person, I've not yet seen a single case of mask-shaming in either direction - shaming those who do, or shaming those who don't - but perhaps living in SF means that people are a bit more live and let live. I'm very thankful that thus far I've yet to have one unpleasant encounter of any kind.

I've had the opposite experience. I walk 4-6 miles every day without a face mask. Just a few times, people in cars have slowed down to yell at me for not wearing a mask. But that's in San Jose.

My wife and I (70s) have been doing a daily walk on a beautiful urban trail in Eugene OR. It's great for sanity during SIP because it starts in town but winds around the woods and meadows between the river and Autzen Stadium. We pass lots of birds and relatively few other people. It's a running trail so there are some loops that offer runners the equivalent of laps of a mile or two miles. It's also wide enough to allow six feet when we pass other people.

We have our masks around our necks and we pull them up as other people pass us going the other way. Usually there's a wave and camaraderie from both sides of an encounter, a "hi" from a masked face. Maybe 60-70% of the people we encounter wear masks.

Recently one runner going the other way, reacted to us pulling the masks up over our faces as he approached. He passed us with a drawn-out sarcastic multi-syllabic "oh p-l-ease." So we gave him the benefit of the doubt, we have lives, and we wondered whether he even meant us. But then he circled back around on one of the loops, came by again, the second time with the shout, "if you're that scared stay out of the park!" There was no misinterpreting his intention that second time around.

To be clear, that was no big deal. We've done this 4-mile walk every day since March 15 and that's the one and only time we've encountered anything like that. And it's counter to the vibe in Eugene, university town, liberal, and overwhelmingly Democratic politics. But since it fits right into this context, there you have it.

RE: The general public is not good at putting N95 masks on - M T - 05-25-2020

(05-25-2020, 09:14 AM)BostonCard Wrote: I always think it is funny when I see someone in a car, by themselves, wearing a mask. I mean, good for them, but it's probably unnecessary.

Wouldn't you be one of the first to say that adjusting a mask is when you'll be more likely to contaminate yourself? Whether you touch the front of the mask with your hand (and then later, hand to face) as you take it off or put it back on or set it aside for the time you're in the car.

Personally, I see less risk at putting a clean mask on at home before going out to run errands and not taking it off until home again when one can easily clean up.

I recently watched a congressional hearing on C-SPAN. The person running the hearing was a well-known politician, age 70+. As she was opening the meeting, she wore a surgical mask and latex gloves. As she spoke, the mask slowly slipped down, eventually exposing her nostrils. As it continued to slip, I'm sure it was distracting her. So she grabbed the front of the mask about where her lips were, and pulled it forward and down to her neck. She wasn't on camera much during about 5 minutes of testimony. But when she again was center stage and talking, she absent-mindedly reached up and rubbed her cheek to the right of her nose with her (still gloved) hand.

(05-25-2020, 09:10 AM)BostonCard Wrote: I remember in March, this one guy put a youtube video on how to decontaminate groceries where he basically used aseptic technique, with a "dirty zone" and a "clean zone" and really thorough cleaning with dilute bleach, and proper disposal and cleaning of anything that had been in the "dirty zone". At the time it seemed like an overkill, but I remember wondering whether maybe it wasn't, if fomite transmission was common and easy.

Your Overkill May Vary. Just as everyone engages in some risky behavior all the time (seriously, did you always wash your hands as frequently as you did in March & April?), we will all wind up choosing what activities we do or don't do that impact our risk. As I am at high (~ 20%) risk of death from symptomatic COVID-19, I choose to reduce my risk of becoming infected. In my household, every frozen food exterior box that comes from the grocery store goes into our recycle bin while the inside container goes into the freezer. Every item that goes into the refrigerator is thoroughly cleaned. Everything else is set aside long enough for any SARS-CoV-2 to inactivate by 6 orders of magnitude.